Abhisit Outmanoeuvred By Hun Sen On Disputed Temple

[ThaksinKharma]

the Cambodians have maps from france dating back centuries. Those documents make more sense

They make no sense at all as the French are clueless at map-making. That's why their map of the territorial waters is so aschew and messed up and unlike any other territorial water map in the world.

This all relates to why all the hullaboo over the temple. If Thailand loses out on the temple due to the French maps, there's potential for them to lose out on billions in oil and gas rights due to this grossly distorted map.

"makes more sense"? This map only makes sense to someone with glaucoma, crossed eyes, and dyslexia.

[hungryhippo]

If they're going to lose land just blow it up then there would be no temple to fight over.

Edited July 30, 2010 by hungryhippo

[SamritT]

This prove that Abhisit is such a clever man. He managed to control the situation, especially control PAD ,UNESCO Thaksin and Hun Sen to stop a war.

[OctavianCaesar]

If [PAD] push the government too far, eventually, Abhisit will let the law deal with them.

I wouldn't count on it. The PAD leaders are military and privy council. If Abhisit tries anything against the PAD, they'll disolve his party and get rid of him, not the other way around. Sadly.

[OctavianCaesar]

This prove that Abhisit is such a clever man. He managed to control the situation, especially control PAD ,UNESCO Thaksin and Hun Sen to stop a war.

No. He's just trying to keep the steam off him. Like I said on another thread, Abhisits foreign minister, Kasit, vowed at the PAD rally in the airport to wash his feet with the blood of Hun Sen. Ever since they came to power, there have been military clashes that were before absent. Regardless of what he says, that Kasit is in his position and events unfold as they do, Abhisit is threatening war.

[OctavianCaesar]

Well done Abhisit. We are all behind you.

No we're not. He's the most unpopular man in Thailand.

[OctavianCaesar]

Starts off as a news piece, then turns into a silly opinion piece in the end.

Only the first part of that statement is a little surprising. The Nation is just a silly, silly newspaper. Can't take anything seriously that's written in there. In fact, I wonder whom The Nation is for? Foreigners surely don't read it except by accident. Thais are not going to read it either, there's plenty of Thai papers around. So what is it? I can only conclude that it's a propaganda instrument of some sort, and used to seed articles with a certain viewpoint to get picked up by other news agencies around the world.

Or what do you guys think? Anyone actually reading The Nation?

I read all the articles that come up in the "Thai News" Google search, and some of them are naturally the Nation. Some articles are actually quite good and unbiased. Many of them, however, are just royalist nationalist propaganda. Many foreigners do read it and buy into it. It's a powerful tool, shamefully. People need to better educate themselves before believing news articles. Edited July 30, 2010 by OctavianCaesar

[OctavianCaesar]

Webfact :- This is not a troll !!!!! "Q" Isn't the entrance to the Temple on the Thai side of boarder ? if so are World Heritage aware of that ?

Highways leading into the US start in Mexico. I think that makes the US belong to Mexico.

[Tanaka]

Well done Abhisit. We are all behind you.

No we're not. He's the most unpopular man in Thailand.

And you base that claim on what survey?

[OctavianCaesar]

And you base that claim on what survey?

It's just a guess. But if he did not fear that people disliked him, he could hold elections. He knows he won't win them, so he doesn't.

Seriously, who else is more hated? Some people might say Thaksin, but if you view elections as a popularity contest, he's got to be the most popular man, winning his last election by an outright popular majority. Abhisit would lose an election not only because his party does not have the interests of the common people at heart, but because many Thais have seriosuly grown to hate him, the PAD, the military leaders and the Democrats and their alliance.

Edited July 30, 2010 by OctavianCaesar

[OctavianCaesar]

Oh, and if anyone doubts what I said, I think I speak for all Red Shirts when I say we're willing to put our popularity to the test at any time with open elections in a free media enviroment.

[RKASA]

Webfact :- This is not a troll !!!!! "Q" Isn't the entrance to the Temple on the Thai side of boarder ? if so are World Heritage aware of that ?

Highways leading into the US start in Mexico. I think that makes the US belong to Mexico.

No we bought the southwest from Mexico and we have a receipt.

[march]

The PAD leaders are military and privy council.

say wha'?

[devaram]

The temple is clearly in Thailand and the 1962 ruling was a gross mistake. The boder demarcation line is the cliff watershed line which puts the temple clearly in Thailand. The temple is not even accessible from Cambodia and if a war were fought over the temple even if Thai had inferior military they would still win as the Cambodian side is at the bottom of a cliff and the temple is on top of a cliff which gradually slopes down into Thailand.

The ruling was stupid because they did not take into consideration the practicality of the border line but made their judgment based on emotion that the temple was of Khmere origin and therefore should belong to Cambhodia. I feel sympathetic to Cambodia but this is totally stupid to put the border so that the temple is in Cambodia but cannot be accessed from Cambodia.

Thailand should declare war on Cambodia and take the temple and all adjacent land around the temple and F***K UNESCO

The only other option is to create an international site where Cambodia and Thai share everything together which is the better option.

This temple is supposed to be very spectacular almost as great as Angkor Wat!

[indyuk]

ASK THE EDITOR

PM in a bind on Preah Vihear

By Tulsathit Taptim

The Nation

Many people have observed that it was very "un-Abhisit" for the prime minister to threaten to burn the bridges with Unesco without eloquently explaining what on earth was going on in Brazil.

A little travel down memory lane and we may find possible answers.

Abhisit Vejjajiva's scathing attacks on the Samak Sundaravej government two years ago over its support for Cambodia's attempts to register Preah Vihear Temple as a World Heritage Site have limited the prime minister's options. In the 2008 showdown, Abhisit and other Democrats deplored the Samak administration's move as something that might undermine the future Thai stand when it comes to the controversial temple and surrounding areas.

Defending its decision to support Cambodia's registration efforts, the Samak government pointed to two basic legal points. The first was the World Court ruling in 1962 declaring that the temple was on Cambodian territory. The second was Article 61 of the World Court ruling, which states: "No application for revision may be made after a lapse of 10 years from the date of the judgement." Article 61 featured prominently in Cambodia's application document to Unesco, with "LAPSE OF TEN YEARS" written in capital letters.)

The Democrat camp led by Abhisit at the time pointed out Article 60 of the court's ruling. This article allows warring parties to reserve doubts and observations concerning rulings and, unlike Article 61, this one does not spell out any time frame. Which article carries stronger weight is debatable, but the battle line was clearly drawn. The Democrats were saying that any Thai move that could weaken Thailand's "silent protest" against the World Court ruling had to be avoided.

Now that the temple has become a World Heritage Site and the Cambodians are seeking to submit its management plan to Unesco, the Democrats, now in government, find themselves in an awkward position. Supporting the management plan could easily be regarded as hypocrisy and everything could blow up in Abhisit's face.

Ironically, the Abhisit government has found itself more or less in the same situation as the Samak administration. On one hand, there is nothing Thailand could have done to change the fact that the temple belongs to Cambodia. On the other hand, any act to directly or indirectly support Cambodia's sovereign rights could dash any lingering hope for Thai-land to re-file the temple dispute case and, probably worse, embolden Cambo-dia to make related territorial claims.

The Thai delegation led by Natural Resources Minister Suwit Khunkitti went to Brazil somewhat in the dark, not knowing if the Cambodians had sneaked in any sensitive territorial information when they proposed the management plan. When the People's Alliance for Democracy staged a sit-in in front of the Unesco Bangkok office on Wednesday, Abhisit had no choice but to act tough.

In fact, there are considerable safeguards. It is stated clearly in Unesco rules that declaration of a World Heritage Site is not legally binding when overlapping territorial claims are concerned. And a management plan for a World Heritage Site is even less likely to enable one party to assert new territorial claims.

But it doesn't matter now whether concern that Phnom Penh could gain the upper hand over disputed areas surrounding the temple if Thailand supports the management plan is solid or not. The issue has become politically charged, with nationalism about to simmer. One wrong move and what Abhisit said in Parliament to the Samak government in 2008 would come back to haunt him big time. The Pheu Thai Party, surely, must be combing the video and audio archives of the Thai Parliament right now. Abhisit can only hope Unesco will delay the issue, or he will come under great pressure to make good his threat, regardless of whether the management plan is Cambodia's secret tool to gain more ground, literally, or not.

-- The Nation 2010-07-30

What's the fuss all about? The facts appear to be clear. The World Court ruled on the issue 50 years.ago. Thailand has never appealed that decision during the subsequent 50 years.It's a Khmer Temple, Not a Thai Wat. The Cambodians need it, its theirs. Legally, morally and culturally. Why is PM Abhisit so incensed with this when there are far more important issues going begging.in the post protest period.

e.g.How about attending to repayment of Thailand's Sovereign Debt?

[Harpov]

Webfact :- This is not a troll !!!!! "Q" Isn't the entrance to the Temple on the Thai side of boarder ? if so are World Heritage aware of that ?

Highways leading into the US start in Mexico. I think that makes the US belong to Mexico.

Brilliant !

[philw]

Webfact :- This is not a troll !!!!! "Q" Isn't the entrance to the Temple on the Thai side of boarder ? if so are World Heritage aware of that ?

Highways leading into the US start in Mexico. I think that makes the US belong to Mexico.

Brilliant !

Got to agree..............!!!

[Hyponeros]

This article is simply ridiculous!

There are a few articles on the Nations that are not too bad, but those written by Thanong Khanthong don't belong to them!

[asiawatcher]

Hun Sen survived everything from idiots like Sam Rainsy to the Khmer Rouge. He will certainly outlive people like Suthep and Abhisit. People with blood on their hands because they need to please criminals like Chamlong and Anupong. The decision is postponed. But other than the Thai government, the Cambodians have maps from france dating back centuries. Those documents make more sense in international courts than American military maps drawn up under plitical pressure during the lost Vietnam war.

Hmm.... Hun Sen - a survivor no doubt but is also a criminal of the highest order and no different to the majority of the crooks in Thailand running and opposing the countries stability. The border disputes were not originations by the French - Thailand borders in fact were in past times, across to Angkor Wat and beyond - well before the French got involved! They owned the temple and all land belonging to it until the Western 'system' got involved and the problems being experienced now was propagated by those same Western do-gooders. Thailand has not given up on it - rest assured.

[DickFarang]

“...which lies on a mountainside in what is currently Cambodian territory, but which can be accessed only from the Thai side of the border demarcation ...”

How do Cambodian soldiers get there ?

Perhaps the roads are difficult, but you can even reach Machu Picchu (in Peru).

And, what is more, the current province of Si Sa Ket belonged to the Khmer Empire and still a lot of people there are Khmer speaking Khmer.

[SamritT]

"And, what is more, the current province of Si Sa Ket belonged to the Khmer Empire and still a lot of people there are Khmer speaking Khmer." said DickFarang. In Northern Malaysia, many people speak Thai as well.

[SamritT]

OctavianCaesar joined today, and he is already an expert with dozens of post. Who is he? Rucharee?

[devaram]

The entire temple is within the Thai border if the cliff is respected as the natural border which is the case and the original intention of the world court but they moved the border just where the temple is so that the temple would be in Cambodia but the idiots didn't think about the fact that its not even accessible from Cambodia so the artificial border which does not respect the natural border of the cliff should not be respected and the Thais naturally dont respect it. The fact that it is of Khmere design does not give the Cambodians the right as Thailand has many Khmere buildings all over Thailand. Those were ancient times and this is now. I regret having suggested that Thailand declare war over this as this would cause endless problems in the future. The only way is to make it an international zone and share the revenue.

Edited July 30, 2010 by devaram

[SamritT]

The entire temple is within the Thai border if the  cliff is respected as the natural border which is the case and the original intention of the world court but they moved the border just where the temple is so that the temple would be in Cambodia but the idiots didn't think about the fact that its not even accessible from Cambodia  so the artificial border which does not respect the natural border of the cliff should not be respected and the Thais naturally dont respect it. The fact that it is of Khmere design does not give the Cambodians the right as Thailand has many Khmere buildings all over Thailand. Those were ancient times and this is now. I regret having suggested that Thailand declare war over this as this would cause endless problems in the future. The only way is to make it an international zone and share the revenue.

You call the judges IDIOTS. I think it is against the law in Thailand, even if the court is ICJ.

[metisdead]

OctavianCaesar joined today, and he is already an expert with dozens of post. Who is he? Rucharee?

Are you Rucharee V.2?

[tig28]

"...which lies on a mountainside in what is currently Cambodian territory, but which can be accessed only from the Thai side of the border demarcation ..."

How do Cambodian soldiers get there ?

Perhaps the roads are difficult, but you can even reach Machu Picchu (in Peru).

And, what is more, the current province of Si Sa Ket belonged to the Khmer Empire and still a lot of people there are Khmer speaking Khmer.

Hi Dick

Obviously there are a few ways to get from Cambodia to the temple --- but none even come close to the direct access from the Thai side-- which is a simple walk from the carpark. So you may get a better grasp the access question --- I attach a photo from the edge of the temple --- looking down (a long way) into Cambodia. R. Click to enlarge.

[RedNIvar]

"And, what is more, the current province of Si Sa Ket belonged to the Khmer Empire and still a lot of people there are Khmer speaking Khmer." said DickFarang. In Northern Malaysia, many people speak Thai as well.

You mean in Southern Thailand many people speak Malay and want to join Malaysia. However the Thai speakers in Northern Malaysia have no interest whatsoever in joining Thailand.

However I do agree with you that whatever language spoken in Si Saket has no bearing on the issue. Si Saket belongs to Thailand like how the Pheah Vihear belongs to Cambodia.

[faraaaaaang]

"...which lies on a mountainside in what is currently Cambodian territory, but which can be accessed only from the Thai side of the border demarcation ..."

How do Cambodian soldiers get there ?

Perhaps the roads are difficult, but you can even reach Machu Picchu (in Peru).

And, what is more, the current province of Si Sa Ket belonged to the Khmer Empire and still a lot of people there are Khmer speaking Khmer.

I;m pretty sure it can be reached from the Khmer side. My mates did it last march the road is almost completely constructed now.

[tig28]

And, what is more, the current province of Si Sa Ket belonged to the Khmer Empire and still a lot of people there are Khmer speaking Khmer.

Hi Dick

Many more people in Si Saket actually speak Lao .... than Khmer -- and please don't forget all the Suai (Kui) speakers .....But , my friend, they pretty well all speak Thai.

[patjem]

Well so much for the "outsmarting" as reported..... the Cambodia proposal was deferred today.