Se Asia Getting Closer To Usa In Response To Chinese Rising Power

[LaoPo]

Breaking in here with even more recent news from the so called American propaganda machine (oh my, they are such big liars!) about Chinese aggression in the Asean region --

Oh come on JT, you're not "breaking in" into your own topic. Feel welcome.

American one-sided propaganda indeed. If you can't read/see that as an American, better study some more news from other non-US English media

..."......The United States military had been present in the region (South China Sea) for 150 years and would remain there for many more...."

150 years ? China is there since the planet was created out of the big bang.

Maybe it's about time China sends a fleet to the Gulf of Mexico to keep up the balance -just a little- in world powers.

I wonder what the US press would write if there was a Chinese fleet in the Gulf

It's about the same size: South China Sea and Gulf of Mexico:

http://maps.google.n...5,12.304688&z=2

For the time being the US is spending a LOT more on "defense" than any other nation in the world and is -by far- the strongest power in the world.

They know and should soften their tone a bit with their aggressive propaganda in SE Asia about China.

It's all a game between 2 world powers; one far larger than the other, in military power.

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

...should soften their tone a bit with their aggressive propaganda in SE Asia about China.

You are the one providing links to a well known conspiracy nut website to support your posts. Maybe you should follow your own advice...

Edited August 18, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[buddy]

The prime motivation of Chinese mmunist Government to move partially towards free markets which has led to China's rise on the World stage (which we are witnessing now) was not to raise the living standards of its people but to provide material wealth to the majority of the population so they are content enough not to challenge the dominance of the Communist Party.

The prime motivation is political stability and the material consumtion supports this to keep the Communists in power.

That's a good observation and true.

The question remains: what would YOU (or anybody else) have done, after Deng Xiaoping opened the country some 30 years ago, assuming (in that case) you were Chinese ?

It's easy to criticize a country, a (communistic) system, a government, a population and I see that happen here since I became a member, whether it's criticizing the USA, China, Thailand or another country, but rarely....seldom, someone comes up with an intelligent well thought answer.

In China's case the situation is enormously complex but for a country this size and huge population there WAS no other option than to gradually open the country, liberate it's people.

If not, civil wars (yes with an "s") would have broken out with mind boggling consequences, also for the region and Thailand in particular since Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar -and North in Russia-, are not standing in line to welcome an exodus from Chinese and also don't have the infrastructure and means to cope with millions of refugees, fleeing such civil wars.

Thailand isn't exactly wealthy enough to "welcome" an exodus but Chinese would rather opt for Thailand than another country in the region. ..fleeing to N Korea is also not a very welcoming idea, is it?

Again, it's simple, easy, quick to comment and criticize but it's not so easy to steer a country with 1,3 billion people, especially when that country was locked for such a long time.

LaoPo

My own opinion is that Deng Xiaoping did not have a choice at the time, luckily for China he had the foresight to see what lay ahead if action wasnt taken.

The die hard Communists who vilified him at the time should congratulate him as he actually saved China (and perhaps neighbouring Countries) from going down the destructive route you describe above, and more importantly for them he kept the Communist Party in power.

Evolution rather than Revolution!

[buddy]

Money can't buy you love.

Love that....

[LaoPo]

...should soften their tone a bit with their aggressive propaganda in SE Asia about China.

You are the one providing links to a well known conspiracy nut website to support your posts. Maybe you should follow your own advice...

Would a Reaganist Doctor write an article in a nut website?

I don't know, I don't read nut websites and don't even know you had them in the US. Money can't buy you love you know.

I'm not posting aggressive propaganda; and money does buy love, especially in LOS

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

My own opinion is that Deng Xiaoping did not have a choice at the time, luckily for China he had the foresight to see what lay ahead if action wasnt taken.

The die hard Communists who vilified him at the time should congratulate him as he actually saved China (and perhaps neighbouring Countries) from going down the destructive route you describe above, and more importantly for them he kept the Communist Party in power.

Evolution rather than Revolution!

It's hard to tell whether Deng had a choice or not, since I never spoke to him but if you realize how difficult and dangerous his position was between all those hawks in that particular time frame, he was in great danger.

That he pushed on with his views and opened up China is nothing more than amazing, remarkable and unbelievable.

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

I don't read nut websites

The fact that the site is called "Prison Planet" might have given you a clue!

[buddy]

The US has some serious structural problems. Recently, we have played the role of the only remaining military superpower but due to our debt, we can no longer sustain that role.

On a lighter note, maybe the US needs to open a new Government office like the Chinese have in Shanghai to solve the debt problems - A US "Open Ended Fund Commission office"?

Photo taken at The Bund in 2007 on the front of a huge monster of a buliding, never did find out what its function was or what it means.

[buddy]

It's hard to tell whether Deng had a choice or not, since I never spoke to him but if you realize how difficult and dangerous his position was between all those hawks in that particular time frame, he was in great danger.

That he pushed on with his views and opened up China is nothing more than amazing, remarkable and unbelievable.

LaoPo

Dangerous though that choice may have been for Deng and his supporters, Deng had a choice as we have the benefit of hindsight and evidence of that choice so we never had to speak to him.

Lifes about choices, unfortunetely Elected Politicians, Dictators, Despots, Theocracies etc what ever label you asign them as "Leaders" of that particular Nation, those "leaders" choices have a dispraportionate direct impact on peoples lives, now and in the future.

With the benifit of hindsight Deng made the right call for the survival of the Chinese Communist Party, not, repeat, not for the benefit of the Chinese population!

[wintermute]

With the benifit of hindsight Deng made the right call for the survival of the Chinese Communist Party, not, repeat, not for the benefit of the Chinese population!

While that may be true the early efforts of the reformation CPC did lift out tens of millions of people from abject poverty.

[LaoPo]

I don't read nut websites

The fact that the site is called "Prison Planet" might have given you a clue!

You're very good in "picking" very small pieces out of someones post and answering to just that rather than to contribute to the discussion on a more intelligent level.

But I suppose you're so busy walking around on all other topics, giving sarcastic answers here and there, that your time is limited.

Well, I can do the same as you may notice.

But, if you would Google The Ecstasy of Empire, written by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts you will find many other different media who published his article, including Israeli ones and I can guarantee you that the number of publications, worldwide, will increase since the article is too important to ignore, despite that you think he's a loon.

But I think Dr. Roberts doesn't care what you find; I consider him too be a little more thoughtful and intelligent than many others; still think I'm anti-American ?

Maybe the mainstream larger media in the US won't print it because Dr. Roberts is not walking in line with them, who knows

Their own mainstream propaganda first ?

LaoPo

[buddy]

With the benifit of hindsight Deng made the right call for the survival of the Chinese Communist Party, not, repeat, not for the benefit of the Chinese population!

While that may be true the early efforts of the reformation CPC did lift out tens of millions of people from abject poverty.

http://www.ted.com/t...w_and_when.html

I am a big fan of the TED lectures, I subscribe myself.

The eleviation of the abject poverty of tens of millions by the Communist Party of China was a means to maintain political stability, a means to an end.

The World was changing, China was closed, Communism was/is failing, what choice did they have with a discontented population?

Option 1 -, Let the Country go up in smoke and the Chinese Communists fight another revolution and perhaps lose power?

Option 2 - A gradual controlled change and the CPC stay in power?

Not saying it didnt have its opponents, but option 2 was the chosen path.

[LaoPo]

On a lighter note, maybe the US needs to open a new Government office like the Chinese have in Shanghai to solve the debt problems - A US "Open Ended Fund Commission office"?

Photo taken at The Bund in 2007 on the front of a huge monster of a buliding, never did find out what its function was or what it means.

"Open-End Fund Commission Office"

If you want I can check.

But, it's probably quite simple and a Commission's Office, overlooking the enormous growth of Open-End Funds in China; joined-funds also from outside China.

A company like J.P. Morgan from the US for instance is based in China also since a few years, together with Chinese companies and founded the first joint-venture fund in 2004.

But; Mea Culpa...all this is completely off topic; sorry for that.

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

I don't read nut websites

The fact that the site is called "Prison Planet" might have given you a clue!

You're very good in "picking" very small pieces out of someones post and answering to just that rather than to contribute to the discussion on a more intelligent level.

I guess that means that you are admitting that Prison Planet is a conspiracy theory website and that you are trying to back up your opinions with such tripe. Posting from such laughable sources and then calling the Washington Post "one-sided propaganda" does not seem all that "intelligent" a defence of your far-out personal beliefs.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[LaoPo]

With the benifit of hindsight Deng made the right call for the survival of the Chinese Communist Party, not, repeat, not for the benefit of the Chinese population!

While that may be true the early efforts of the reformation CPC did lift out tens of millions of people from abject poverty.

http://www.ted.com/t...w_and_when.html

Better make that 500 million* people who came out of bitter poverty in 10-15 years since the doors were opened; more people than in the entire USA or Europe.

The point of this discussion, annoying me most, is the negative tone some posters have; instead of applauding poor people, who were being (made) able to crawl out of their ditches and miserable poverty and reaching a more comfortable life they keep on bashing on "China".

Those same posters have a comfortable life of their own, enough money to be able to live in Thailand or another nice place elsewhere, have enough food, a roof over their head, heating/air conditioning, transportation of their own, but on the other hand they write as if they would deny Chinese to try and reach the same lifestyle.

Those same posters, in many cases, have a Thai partner who came from a poor background but they don't care about it if he/she was poor or not and good for them!

I applaud that, if you love someone you love someone, period and don't care about whether she/he was poor. They're trying to give them a better life instead.

Good!

But those same posters become nasty, angry and become pissed off if one says something too sensitive about America or another home country but tap their own shoulders and find it the most normal thing in the world to bash upon another country

I am not defending the Communistic REGIME in Beijing, I'm definitely not and never will, but I'm trying to defend the people of China since they are human beings like the rest of us.

* if you search Google for 300 or 500 million people you will find some dramatic numbers....are they correct..? I don't know, but they're shocking since there is still SO MUCH wrong in Asia that it's mind boggling.

* 300 million people in China still smoking

* 300 million people in India go hungry EVERY DAY

* 300 million still below poverty in China

* 1,2 BILLION people worldwide in poverty surviving on less than $1/day

* http://www.foreignmi...100714_anu.html

And, to Buddy:

yes, you're right: the leaders in Beijing from the Communistic Party changed everything, also in the first place for themselves.

Isn't it everywhere the same, including the West and Thailand as well ?

The leaders always take good care of themselves but that doesn't mean that China shouldn't improve in their democratic process.

They should and it will; it takes time.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I guess that means that you are admitting that Prison Planet is a conspiracy theory website and that you are trying to back up your opinions with such tripe. Posting from such laughable sources and then calling the Washington Post "one-sided propaganda" does not seem all that "intelligent" a defence of your far-out personal beliefs.

No, I'm not admitting anything since I'm not American and never heard of that website before.

I was interested in Dr. Paul Craig Roberts' article and you called him a loon for writing and expressing HIS opinion, which is NOT yours. I'm not interested in that website.

To call someone a loon who is a Dr., an economist, studied at many Universities and former editor and columnist of The Wall Street Journal and Business Week, as well as being the co-founder of the famous Reaganomics says more about you than Dr. Roberts who has a most impressive Curriculum Vitae.

That alone, calling an esteemed and respected man a loon, is something YOU should think about, not me nor Dr. Roberts.

You are withdrawing from the subject by starting to talk about a website, not the content by Dr. Roberts.

And, UG, I think Dr. Roberts is closer to the (American) truth than you are....and that truth is not so nice, economically spoken.

You better watch it...the US has already 10% jobless people* and that is not only bad for America but for the rest of the world also, yes..also for China and the rising military and economical tension between China and the US in the Asian hemisphere.

May Buddha and God beware!

* maybe you want to watch this scary video about the increase in unemployment in the US:

"How The Unemployment Crises Swept Across America"

http://www.huffingto...h_n_685143.html

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

I am not defending the Communistic REGIME in Beijing, I'm definitely not and never will, but I'm trying to defend the people of China since they are human beings like the rest of us.

Of course you are. Why deny the obvious? They are exactly what other people are worried about. No one has "bashed' regular Chinese people.

[LaoPo]

http://www.ted.com/t...w_and_when.html

Thanks for that link WM; most interesting.

Are you Swedish, like Professor Hans Rosling in the video ?

I like the Swedes but Danish people also; my best friend is Swedish although a difficult and selfish man

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

To call someone a loon who is a Dr., an economist, studied at many Universities..

Is that supposed to prove something? There are a lot of well educated loons and criminals. Dr. Hannibal Lector was based on a real person.

http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n07/doencas/killers_i.htm

[LaoPo]

I am not defending the Communistic REGIME in Beijing, I'm definitely not and never will, but I'm trying to defend the people of China since they are human beings like the rest of us.

Of course you are. Why deny the obvious? They are exactly what other people are worried about. No one has "bashed' regular Chinese people.

You're doing it over-and-over-again.....picking a small part out of my total post and attack me....sigh

sigh.....what do I deny and where ? Be specific and don't circle around the subject Ulysses_G !

I understand and completely agree with you that people, governments and nations all around the world are worried about the Beijing regime.

The point is that they are THERE and won't move out quickly so the "world" has to cope with it, negotiate with intelligence and patience, not military show-off and brutal force.

That won't do and both China and the US know that since they're both nuclear super powers, the US much more so than China, but a conflict, whether in the air or at sea will be devastating for the whole world.

There won't be winners, only losers and...to be very blunt: China is more "capable" (sorry, wrong word) of affording to "lose" 200/300 million people, or even half of it's populaion, rather than the US....

You guys should be more patient.

The Giant came out of his lockers only 30 years ago and China's heading now to a more prosperous economically future with lots of ups and downs but there's only one small path to follow:

Consensus and gradual improvement.

It took the USA 2/300 years or even more to come where they are now; what do you want, the same accomplishments in 50 years for China ?

And, why is nobody watching the other Giant who will surpass China in 2 or 3 decades people-wise ?...INDIA ?

You tell me why China is a lot further down the road in progress and economical power rather than it's neighbor,DEMOCRATIC INDIA ?

See, there's so much goin' on in the world that it's mind boggling.

Ho are things in Chiang Mai, busy ?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

To call someone a loon who is a Dr., an economist, studied at many Universities..

Is that supposed to prove something? There are a lot of well educated loons and criminals. Dr. Hannibal Lector was based on a real person.

It's an insult to my intelligence to even think with the blink of a millisecond that I would answer to this silly post. You already dragged Charles Manson into the discussion.

How old are you? Can't think of anything else to contribute to this discussion ?

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

It's an insult to my intelligence to even think with the blink of a millisecond that I would answer to this silly post.

You just did and there is nothing silly about pointing out that a fancy degree does not mean that one is right about predicting the future. Well educated people are wrong about such things all of the time.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[LaoPo]

It's an insult to my intelligence to even think with the blink of a millisecond that I would answer to this silly post.

You just did and there is nothing silly about pointing out that a fancy degree does not mean that one is right about predicting the future. Well educated people are wrong about such things all of the time.

To compare an esteemed American Dr. with an impressive CV with a serial killer....thats your problem.

If I would have done that you would have qualified me (again) as anti-American

You're a one-sentence picker; not debating the content.

Adios with your attempts to attack me over and over. You won't succeed, ever.

LaoPo

[Ulysses G.]

A serial killer with an impressive CV - I was making a point.

As far as "attacking" you goes, I have been attacking your posts and the sources that you use to try to prop them up. You are the one who is attacking me personally as you always do when anyone does not agree with you.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[LaoPo]

[venturalaw]

As far as "attacking" you goes, I have been attacking your posts and the sources that you use to try to prop them up. You are the one who is attacking me personally as you always do when anyone does not agree with you.

UG has a point.

[JimGant]

To compare an esteemed American Dr.......

How much research did you do on this "esteemed American Dr," LaoPo? Yes, much of what he says on the future of America, albeit doom and gloom, should not be dismissed out of hand. And, his too-influential neocon, too-pro-Israel reasoning for the Iraqi war has much merit -- and parallels that of several in-the-know individuals, particularly Gen Zinni, formerly Centcom commander -- and a foremost expert on the Middle East.

Unfortunately, your esteemed Dr also said about the 9/11 attacks:

I will begin by stating what we know to be a solid incontrovertible scientific fact. We know that it is strictly impossible for any building, much less steel columned buildings, to “pancake” at free fall speed. Therefore, it is a non-controversial fact that the official explanation of the collapse of the WTC buildings is false.

Nut case? That should be an easy answer for you - or not?

[Ulysses G.]

January 28, 2009

Featured Idiot: Paul Craig Roberts

By Dave

This week we've got a new featured idiot. Paul Craig Roberts is back on the top of the list for his heroic defense of Iran and repeated claims that the Bush administration was horribly slandering the innocent Iranians who had no intention of developing nuclear weapons. All of which has now been proven to be as foolish and naive as his equally ridiculous beliefs about the 9/11 attacks. The latest reports from the IAEA and IISS show that Iran will have working nuclear weapons and that they never shut down any of their nuclear weapons development programs. Just being so totally wrong would get Roberts the nod as featured idiot, but add in the fact that his idiocy is motivated by his rabid antisemitism and he gets to be top idiot with a gold star.

www.idiotwars,com

DOCTOR Paul Craig Roberts, nutty as a fruitcake.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ulysses G.