Should Buddhists Enjoy Their Food?

[Xangsamhua]

In another thread a poster spoke of his beneficial experience at Phra Buddhadasa's Suan Mokh retreat centre and reported the following:

All food was provided and everyone would recite a reflection confirming that eating was purely to sustain life & not indulged for pleasure or fattening

.

Now Phra Buddhadasa, for all his virtues, has struck me as being something of a wet blanket. I'm mindful of his strictures against laughing and dancing (and singing, I think), and it appears this extends to his views on eating.

However, for Buddhists the news is not all bad, as it appears that the venerable Southern Master's warnings against enjoyment are not shared by all. Below are a few examples I've picked off the net, and the message seems to be that eating should be mindful, but by no means purely a survival obligation.

When we can slow down and really enjoy our food, our life and our health, we take on a much deeper quality. I love to sit and eat quietly and enjoy each bite, aware of the presence of my community, aware of all the hard and loving work that has gone into my food.

Thich Nhat Hanh, interviewed by Oprah at http://www.oprah.com...anh-About-Savor

Having the opportunity to sit with our family and friends and enjoy wonderful food is something precious, something not everyone has. Many people in the world are hungry. When I hold a bowl of rice or a piece of bread, I know that I am fortunate, and I feel compassion for all those who have no food to eat and are without friends or family. This is a very deep practice. We do not need to go to a temple or a church in order to practise this. We can practise it right at our dinner table. Mindful eating can cultivate seeds of compassion and understanding that will strengthen us to do something to help hungry and lonely people be nourished. (From TNH: Present Moment, Wonderful Moment, cited in http://www.slowmovem...hp?topic=18.new

It is important to enjoy good, healthy food and drink in moderate quantity. Food should be consumed not in a vain attempt to fill emotional desires but in accord with your actual physical needs. See the food you eat as sustaining and nourishing, and enjoy it by being mindful of every taste you take. Try to be aware of the process of each sip of liquid and bite of food, and consciously follow the food's movements in your body as far as you can. Feel that the food and drink are not only satisfying your hunger and thirst, but also generating health in your body and mind. Wish the same enjoyment for all beings. Appreciate and be thankful for the pleasure of every sip and bite you take.

http://www.care2.com...hy-eating.html#

You are invited to attend the 11th Annual Community Picnic at
Atammayatarama Buddhist Monastery (ABM), 19301 176th Ave NE,
Woodinville.The Annual Picnic is brought to you by the Board of
Directors and members of ABM. This is the way we say "THANK YOU" to our friends and neighbors for your support. A great opportunity to see old friends, make new friends, and enjoy the good food.

Everyone is invited to enjoy free BBQ chicken, salmon,
hamburgers, hot dogs, Thai specialty food, salad and soft drinks.
Please bring your family and invite your friends to our gathering.

http://atamma.org/index.php

I wouldn't like to think that members of the Buddhism sub-forum eat their meals as grudgingly as the report from Wat Suan Mokh suggests, but if they do, well, that's OK I guess. I would think, though, that conviviality based on shared enjoyment contributes to the building of sangha.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[rockyysdt]

l for one enjoy my food, especially the wonderful and varied cuisine found in Thailand.

I'd imagine the correct way to go when it comes to eating is the middle path.

I suspect many over indulge when it comes to food. It's almost embarrassing to represent farangs when you see many of them disembarking their flights at Suvarnabhumi Airport looking like they could last a couple of winters in hibernation.

After learning more about the Dhamma, l'm not too sure where we all stand when it comes to food.

Having read the 4 noble truths & 8 fold path, in order to realize the Buddhas teachings in our lives, perhaps Phra Buddhadasa's position on food makes sense.

The fare at Suan Mokkh was, well balanced, nutritious, and very tasty. Something that l would choose and pay for at a restaurant.

Although retreatants could have as many helpings as they wished (some had triple), the emphasis was to be mindful of what food is, what it tastes like, and how much food one needed to eat before over indulging. Towards the latter part of our stay we graduated to one meal a day which turned out to be more than enough for me.

Perhaps the Masters warnings lie in the the 2nd noble truth "Suffering's Origin (Dukkha Samudaya)".

Seeking delight and craving for the pleasures of food fuels much suffering in our world, particularly in the west.

Our hospitals are full of people with discretionary illnesses brought about by diet & attachment to our sense of taste.

Excellent question X.

How much does enjoying our food, take us from The Path (Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Magga) which leads us to the cessation of suffering?

If we don't view food for what it really is (sustains life) are we maintaining attachment?

How seriously should we take Dhamma in our daily lives?

Edited August 22, 2010 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

You are invited to attend the 11th Annual Community Picnic at
 Atammayatarama Buddhist Monastery (ABM), 19301 176th Ave NE,
Woodinville.The Annual Picnic is brought to you by the Board of
Directors and members of ABM. This is the way we say "THANK YOU" to our friends and neighbors for your support. A great opportunity to see old friends, make new friends, and enjoy the good food.

Everyone is invited to enjoy free BBQ chicken, salmon,
hamburgers, hot dogs, Thai specialty food, salad and soft drinks.
Please bring your family and invite your friends to our gathering.

I hate to admit it.

Finding myself still be very much bound by ego, l admit to having an aversion towards one of modern mans greatest crimes against its peoples.

Allowing an industry to promote over consumption of processed foods and beverages for profit, by feeding into mans desire for pleasure.

Much of this processed fare is designed to maximize profits and arouse desire, but contains very little to sustain life.

I'm very mindful that a lot of such desire is acquired (conditioning).

Hot Dogs & Hamburgers (overly processed, high in saturated fats, salt & preservatives) are something to be avoided if one has a choice.

Mindfulness when consuming wholesome well prepared natural foods in balance is a celebration.

Edited August 22, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

Rocky, I liked your comment about the middle way.

I'd imagine the correct way to go when it comes to eating is the middle path.

The middle way on the one hand doesn't include disdain for the pleasure in eating. On the other it doesn't include gluttony, or gourmandizing.

It is possible to be attentive to responsible diet, to eating only the things that are beneficial or at least not harmful, but it's easier said than done. Even those of us who try to follow a responsible diet are inclined to lapse occasionally and go for some "comfort food", whether a double cheeseburger, coke and fries or somtam (with its sugar, MSG and fermented fish paste) and sticky rice (lots of sugar and carbohydrates). I guess these lapses are a sign that one is not fully awakened, but they feel good at the time.

However, the consumption of food, for lay people at any rate, is not just a physical activity we engage in to ward off starvation. For those of us who eat in company, it is or can be a bonding activity. We eat with our family at the end of the working/studying day; we may eat with colleagues or business associates as a form of fellowship or to build a relationship; we eat with friends as a focus for expressing friendship and enjoying each others' company. For those who eat alone, a meal can be a reward for having got through a busy day, something to look forward to at the weekend, or even compensation for loneliness.

Mrs Xang is an expert on nutrition and would regard much of the western or Thai diet as unhealthy. She follows a strict diet of what her friends would call "rabbit food", but she's grown to like it. I suppose she follows the middle way because she eats lots and enjoys it, although she has the occasional ice cream or Hershey's nugget, so I guess she's not fully awakened either.

At Plum Village the fare is vegan (and not always well cooked). However, the monks eat three times a day, with the lay residents and visitors, and really tuck in - young and old. The first 20 minutes is eaten in silence and I think there is general mindfulness (there's not much else to think about). After 20 minutes, all are free to converse, and, time allowing, to stay on in the dining hall for a while. I found the food tiresome after a few days, but Mrs X thought it was great.

I don't think this post is adding up to anything. Sorry. I just thought I'd reflect a little on Rocky's helpful comments and the topic in general.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[Brucenkhamen]

This is a very common Theravadin monastic reflection on food.

It doesn't mean one eats grudgingly or experiences no pleasure in eating but that one reflects on the purpose of eating.

If the purpose of eating were pleasure then one could substitute other pleasurable activities, such as sex, television, or computer games. If they were substituted for eating where would you be?

Considering the Thai obsession with food I think this reflection is very appropriate, I often think Buddhism is the second religion in Thailand.

[rockyysdt]

It is possible to be attentive to responsible diet, to eating only the things that are beneficial or at least not harmful, but it's easier said than done. Even those of us who try to follow a responsible diet are inclined to lapse occasionally and go for some "comfort food", whether a double cheeseburger, coke and fries or somtam (with its sugar, MSG and fermented fish paste) and sticky rice (lots of sugar and carbohydrates). I guess these lapses are a sign that one is not fully awakened, but they feel good at the time.

I can see where you're coming from. In earlier times l had more than my fair share of take away & junk food.

I'm fortunate (if you can call it that) to have a food intolerance to dairy & wheat products. Eating them gave pleasure but much suffering afterwards until I was diagnosed.

Associating many such foods with much suffering has allowed me to modify my food likes and dislikes. I've reconditioned myself to have an aversion to junk.

My experience tells me that what most of us choose as "comfort food" is very much due to conditioning.

After being shown the ingredients of a double cheeseburger and experienced the results of eating one, l can easily avoid them.

Coke was mentioned. Knowing the addictive properties of Cola (caffeine & high sugar) and what it does to ones health, I'd go out on a limb and say that Cola Manufacturers would be breaking the Right Livelihood precept.

In company, it is or can be a bonding activity. We eat with our family at the end of the working/studying day; we may eat with colleagues or business associates as a form of fellowship or to build a relationship; we eat with friends as a focus for expressing friendship and enjoying each others' company. For those who eat alone, a meal can be a reward for having got through a busy day, something to look forward to at the weekend, or even compensation for loneliness.

For me its not the social side of eating which is the problem but what is served.

A certain number in any group will be more susceptible to serious long term dietary health issues than others.

I'd hate to have been party to peer group pressure encouraging many to eat poorly and suffer as a consequence.

Mrs Xang is an expert on nutrition and would regard much of the western or Thai diet as unhealthy. She follows a strict diet of what her friends would call "rabbit food", but she's grown to like it. I suppose she follows the middle way because she eats lots and enjoys it, although she has the occasional ice cream or Hershey's nugget, so I guess she's not fully awakened either.

I tip my hat to Mrs Xang.

She's on the money.

At Plum Village the fare is vegan (and not always well cooked). However, the monks eat three times a day, with the lay residents and visitors, and really tuck in - young and old. The first 20 minutes is eaten in silence and I think there is general mindfulness (there's not much else to think about). After 20 minutes, all are free to converse, and, time allowing, to stay on in the dining hall for a while. I found the food tiresome after a few days, but Mrs X thought it was great.

Its sad to read about the Plum Village Monks.

Once ordained, aren't they breaking a precept?

Edited August 23, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

At Plum Village the fare is vegan (and not always well cooked). However, the monks eat three times a day, with the lay residents and visitors, and really tuck in - young and old. The first 20 minutes is eaten in silence and I think there is general mindfulness (there's not much else to think about). After 20 minutes, all are free to converse, and, time allowing, to stay on in the dining hall for a while. I found the food tiresome after a few days, but Mrs X thought it was great.

Its sad to read about the Plum Village Monks.

Once ordained, aren't they breaking a precept?

I guess not. It's a Zen community, so they have different precepts. Inland France is also cold much of the time, so people probably eat more. To eat meat or dairy products and eggs would be a violation of their precepts.

[rockyysdt]

At Plum Village the fare is vegan (and not always well cooked). However, the monks eat three times a day, with the lay residents and visitors, and really tuck in - young and old. The first 20 minutes is eaten in silence and I think there is general mindfulness (there's not much else to think about). After 20 minutes, all are free to converse, and, time allowing, to stay on in the dining hall for a while. I found the food tiresome after a few days, but Mrs X thought it was great.

Its sad to read about the Plum Village Monks.

Once ordained, aren't they breaking a precept?

I guess not. It's a Zen community, so they have different precepts. Inland France is also cold much of the time, so people probably eat more. To eat meat or dairy products and eggs would be a violation of their precepts.

This is one of the positive outcomes of such posts for me.

I didn't realize there were so many Vinaya's & differing groups of precepts.

Interestingly the Japanese generally follow Dharmaguptaka Vinaya which has 250 rules^[/url] for the bhikkhus and 348 rules bhikkunis. I wonder why females would be assigned 99 more?

Would Zen come under this group?

[sabaijai]

I don't think it's about enjoying your food or not enjoying it. Enjoying with clinging is avarice. Not enjoyng, or experiencing disgust, with clinging is aversion. The middle path, as suggested, avoids both.

Thus in times of abundance, enjoy the blessings of good food, contemplating impermanence. In times of paucity, tolerate whatever is at hand, contemplating impermanence. At any given moment while eating - whatever the delicacy - the activity can be either pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent to varying degrees. As long as the mind doesn't cling to any of these conditions, kusala citta arises. What could be more enjoyable?

[Xangsamhua]

As long as the mind doesn't cling to any of these conditions, kusala citta arises. What could be more enjoyable?

Sabaijai, how would you translate kusala citta? Pure awareness? Illuminated mind? Something else?

[mizzi39]

quote:

Now Phra Buddhadasa, for all his virtues, has struck me as being something of a wet blanket. I'm mindful of his strictures against laughing and dancing (and singing, I think), and it appears this extends to his views on eating.

I respect a lot of Phra Buddhadasa's teachings but this is where he falls short with me.I think even the Buddha enjoyed the serene sounds of music.Who is to say the Buddha never laughed? Budhaghosa? Being mindful and being a robot are two different things.

Edited August 23, 2010 by mizzi39

[sabaijai]

As long as the mind doesn't cling to any of these conditions, kusala citta arises. What could be more enjoyable?

Sabaijai, how would you translate kusala citta? Pure awareness? Illuminated mind? Something else?

Kusala citta = skilful/wholesome (kusala) mind-moment (citta)

[SamritT]

Monk have to eat too. So why not enjoy it?

[rockyysdt]

Now Phra Buddhadasa, for all his virtues, has struck me as being something of a wet blanket. I'm mindful of his strictures against laughing and dancing (and singing, I think), and it appears this extends to his views on eating.

However, for Buddhists the news is not all bad, as it appears that the venerable Southern Master's warnings against enjoyment are not shared by all.

It can all be rather confusing.

Isn't Phra Buddhadasa just adhering to what the Buddha taught?

The 8 precepts include:

• I undertake to abstain from eating at the wrong time (the right time is after sunrise, before noon).
• I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands (decorative accessories).
• I undertake to abstain from luxurious places for sitting or sleeping, and overindulging in sleep.

The Buddha gave teachings on how the eight precepts were to be practiced, and on the right and wrong ways of practicing the eight precepts.

Edited August 24, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

As long as the mind doesn't cling to any of these conditions, kusala citta arises. What could be more enjoyable?

Sabaijai, how would you translate kusala citta? Pure awareness? Illuminated mind? Something else?

Kusala citta = skilful/wholesome (kusala) mind-moment (citta)

Thank you.

[Xangsamhua]

Now Phra Buddhadasa, for all his virtues, has struck me as being something of a wet blanket. I'm mindful of his strictures against laughing and dancing (and singing, I think), and it appears this extends to his views on eating.

However, for Buddhists the news is not all bad, as it appears that the venerable Southern Master's warnings against enjoyment are not shared by all.

It can all be rather confusing.

Isn't Phra Buddhadasa just adhering to what the Buddha taught?

The 8 precepts include:

• I undertake to abstain from eating at the wrong time (the right time is after sunrise, before noon).
• I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands (decorative accessories).
• I undertake to abstain from luxurious places for sitting or sleeping, and overindulging in sleep.

The Buddha gave teachings on how the eight precepts were to be practiced, and on the right and wrong ways of practicing the eight precepts.

These are the eight precepts described in the Anguttara Nikaya 8.41, the Uposatha Sutta. They apply to lay folk doing Uposatha observance or those who, like Santi Asoke lay members in Thailand, choose to follow these as their rule of life. They seem to be distinctively Theravadin and their authority resides in the Pali Canon. So, yes, for Theravadin lay practitioners on retreat or following a stricter observance, Phra Buddhadasa would be right in condemning laughter, dancing and singing. (I sympathise with him on the dancing thing, but my wife and virtually every female I know disagrees!)

These eight precepts are not universal, however, across the Buddhist world. I don't know if there are eight precepts, for example, in Chan/Zen, but I know that monks and nuns in that tradition eat after noon and sing. Plum Village has quite a hymnal of quaint little songs that convey teachings. A popular one is "I'm breathing in; I'm breathing out" popularised in Thailand by Mae Chee Sansanee, of Sathira Dhammsathan. These songs can be found at http://www.plumvilla...e-practice.html

[mizzi39]

Now Phra Buddhadasa, for all his virtues, has struck me as being something of a wet blanket. I'm mindful of his strictures against laughing and dancing (and singing, I think), and it appears this extends to his views on eating.

However, for Buddhists the news is not all bad, as it appears that the venerable Southern Master's warnings against enjoyment are not shared by all.

It can all be rather confusing.

Isn't Phra Buddhadasa just adhering to what the Buddha taught?

The 8 precepts include:

• I undertake to abstain from eating at the wrong time (the right time is after sunrise, before noon).
• I undertake to abstain from singing, dancing, playing music, attending entertainment performances, wearing perfume, and using cosmetics and garlands (decorative accessories).
• I undertake to abstain from luxurious places for sitting or sleeping, and overindulging in sleep.

The Buddha gave teachings on how the eight precepts were to be practiced, and on the right and wrong ways of practicing the eight precepts.

The eight precepts only apply to Theravada, The ones listed above are mentioned nowhere in the Mahayana perfect immediate precepts which has 10.

All precepts look Innocent enough, but there is an underlying "danger' when people decide to take them to literally. We all know killing is wrong. We don't need a precept for that (nor a commandment for that matter). Some precepts may actually be harmful when taking to literally. for example: "I undertake to abstain from eating at the wrong time (the right time is after sunrise, before noon)" sounds innocent enough, but tell that to a diabetic.

Edited August 25, 2010 by mizzi39

[fabianfred]

As far as enjoying music, or food, or anything....which can be a hinderance to practice (of meditation).... of course once we are in the safe state of being in one of the four Ariya, we could safely do what we think is correct...... like leaving the raft of dhamma behind once we have finished with it.

Also remember that these recommendations are for the minority who are interested in practice with Nibanna as their goal.

It isn't so much what we eat as how we eat. Showing thanks to the farmers, food preparers, donors...and also to any animals whose meat is being consumed would be respectful.

We should not eat meat with relish and make comments about how delicious it is, but rather as the survivors of the Andes crash ate meat from the passengers killed in order to survive.

[khaowong1]

It's my understanding, that the reason for the not eating after 12:00 precept, was because in the Buddha's time, their was no refridgeration, and since the weather was most of the times extremely hot, the food was cooked in the morning and used throughout the day. AND, by late evening, the pre-cooked food could become rancid. That's my understanding, and in case your wondering, no I don't eat after 12 noon.

[rockyysdt]

It's my understanding, that the reason for the not eating after 12:00 precept, was because in the Buddha's time, their was no refridgeration, and since the weather was most of the times extremely hot, the food was cooked in the morning and used throughout the day. AND, by late evening, the pre-cooked food could become rancid. That's my understanding, and in case your wondering, no I don't eat after 12 noon.

Another reason I understood was that the Buddha didn't want monks disturbing villagers at all hours.

Both don't seem to hold.

Aren't there many types of food which don't require cooking, enabling Monks to munch on something later in the day?

Perhaps there's something of greater substance and ignoring the Buddhas instruction might inhibit ones progress.

Doesn't eating only until noon allow more time for meditation & reduces that lazy sleep feeling often experienced after a meal.

I personally experience a deeper sitting experience with an empty stomach.

[sabaijai]

It's my understanding, that the reason for the not eating after 12:00 precept, was because in the Buddha's time, their was no refridgeration, and since the weather was most of the times extremely hot, the food was cooked in the morning and used throughout the day. AND, by late evening, the pre-cooked food could become rancid. That's my understanding, and in case your wondering, no I don't eat after 12 noon.

Another reason I understood was that the Buddha didn't want monks disturbing villagers at all hours.

Both don't seem to hold.

Aren't there many types of food which don't require cooking, enabling Monks to munch on something later in the day?

Perhaps there's something of greater substance and ignoring the Buddhas instruction might inhibit ones progress.

Doesn't eating only until noon allow more time for meditation & reduces that lazy sleep feeling often experienced after a meal.

I personally experience a deeper sitting experience with an empty stomach.

It doesn't have to be either/or, does it? Perhaps all these reasons apply.