Reds Back Out In Chiang Mai

[jdinasia]

The right to peaceful protest.

All protests cause inconvenience to some people.

When you proclaim in advance that you will be burning BKK to the ground as Arisaman did ... (a red leader) or the other calls for violence by the other red leaders from the red stages ... it isn't a peaceful protest even from the beginning. Add Sae daeng's "Ronin" into the mx and it is armed insurrection and not a protest at all.

[uptheos]

Do you include the illegal occupation of Bangkok with that?

[/quote

I don't advocate anything illegal, just the right to peaceful protest.

[philw]

The right to peaceful protest.

All protests cause inconvenience to some people.

When you proclaim in advance that you will be burning BKK to the ground as Arisaman did ... (a red leader) or the other calls for violence by the other red leaders from the red stages ... it isn't a peaceful protest even from the beginning. Add Sae daeng's "Ronin" into the mx and it is armed insurrection and not a protest at all.

Got any other records ??

This one's getting a bit stale.

Reminds me of Radio Caroline when the supplies boat couldn't get through.

Just out of curiosity, where did the 500 "Ronin" escape to ??

Amazing that, how 500 heavily armed warriors can just evaporate when wholly surrounded.....

Seems like the only arrests so far are Sae Daeng's cook and driver.

[rodcourt49]

Next time why not try talking with them? You might be surprised

Fear of the unknown often followed by dehumanising of 'the other' - just perpetuates the great divide - an old tactic that allows the bad guys to maintain control through repression

..you can theorise and quote Mussolini, Mao, Hitler etc. etc. but everyday grassroots Thai people have no idea what it is about..they're confused and upset by the Reds and see this new outburst as being so destructive..why don't you go ask them yourself about how they now feel about it all..they're dumbstruck and have no idea which way to go..they see the presence of the police and army and feel a little reassured but to them nothing has been done at a Government level ie an election to put these Reds to bed, in their eyes, permanently..these gentle folk just want the opportunity to sell clothes, craftware and food and have bo idea of the complexeties you educated foreigners go on about..nothing has been resolved and they're feeling the consequences of the actions of the few..they're really hurting and many have no idea what not to do or where to go..they're openly embarassed and putting 'losing face' aside; they're prepared to voice their opinion.

[mccw]

Seems tv redshirts have the same sellective memory and inability to accept facts as the mob in the street; still repeating the same old lines as if saying it enough will make it true even though any one with half a brain can see it is not. The government has the most votes as of the last ellection! It's not undemocratic; there really is no arguement to be had here, the facts are there for all to see; in the same way video of red leaders calling for violence arson etc is. It's fact that policies of this gov are going further than anything thaksin did; thaksin threw a few populist scraps to enable his looting; this gov is seriously going about setting up a welfare state; if you had any care for the poor u should be supportive of this, not lusting over armed insurrection to return a massmurdering corrupt authoritian who would soon become a dictator, as he was setting himself up to b before; thank the heavens the millitary stepped in when they did!

[CMX]

Yes, an election would be good. I wonder sometimes at the decision to put it off so long? I mean, if major organs of "information" of the redshirts are prohibited from broadcasting or publishing just now, would not an early election be well advised by the present leaders? What is keeping them from calling an election? Why the delay? What is supposed to happen?

It's a puzzlement.

And although it appears on its face to be a national issue, it goes directly to relationships here in our fair city and tourism and the economy of Chiang Mai and happiness ratios.

Edited August 23, 2010 by CMX

[mccw]

3000+ dead by police; can u imajine the carnage if the reds controlled the millitary? Now that is scarey!

Edited August 23, 2010 by mccw

[uptheos]

Freedom of expression and assembly are all part of the rocky road toward a democratic process.

Deny this and you deny The Human Rights Act, which protects freedom of expression and assembly.

[ChiangMaiFun]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

I agree - particularly more tax for the rich - but your belief that the present government is going to stand up for the poor and hit the rich and stop corruption is innocent and charming but never going to happen.

Thailand, whom we all love, is decades behind in almost all aspects particularly law and education.

They should start with banning censorship – allowing free speech? A good start? but I do not think it is going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

Have to remember that Mark & Co has done great decision when they invested for free education in all Thai government schools until 15 years of age!

What greater investment can they do than education, and this is for the poor as rich kids will go to private schools anyway.

Well you are assuming that the 'education' they will receive is 'good" and up to standard - maybe as good as the rich give their kids in Thailand? haha

The 'Principle' is good, I agree, but this is just playing at buying votes - the REAL job is stamping out corruption, getting the Military out of politics and getting rid of the censorship that cuts out any free speach - which is the frist freedom in any civilised country.

[mccw]

@cmx

I guess the government wants some time to instigate policies which will help the poor and so chance to turn the minds of the reds who are red out of hope for a better life and think they are only option; also to have some time for everyone to cool off and insigate security opperations/ change police chiefs and generals and such, needed so a peaceful ellection can happen free from red thuggery and intimidation.

[philw]

@cmx

I guess the government wants some time to instigate policies which will help the poor and so chance to turn the minds of the reds who are red out of hope for a better life and think they are only option; also to have some time for everyone to cool off and insigate security opperations/ change police chiefs and generals and such, needed so a peaceful ellection can happen free from red thuggery and intimidation.

Just for fun, substitute "yellow" for "red" and then see how it reads.

[uptheos]

By re-distribution of wealth and justice to all people? Yes. Increase the tax for the rich, that will make the rich less rich. Free stuff for the poor; free food, house, bus, electricity, water, etc. Some already done by Mark government already like free electric, bus, water. Free schooling for the poor, that will make uneducated people educated. This again has been done by Mark government.

I agree - particularly more tax for the rich - but your belief that the present government is going to stand up for the poor and hit the rich and stop corruption is innocent and charming but never going to happen.

Thailand, whom we all love, is decades behind in almost all aspects particularly law and education.

They should start with banning censorship – allowing free speech? A good start? but I do not think it is going to change anytime soon unfortunately.

Have to remember that Mark & Co has done great decision when they invested for free education in all Thai government schools until 15 years of age!

What greater investment can they do than education, and this is for the poor as rich kids will go to private schools anyway.

Well you are assuming that the 'education' they will receive is 'good" and up to standard - maybe as good as the rich give their kids in Thailand? haha

The 'Principle' is good, I agree, but this is just playing at buying votes - the REAL job is stamping out corruption, getting the Military out of politics and getting rid of the censorship that cuts out any free speach - which is the frist freedom in any civilised country.

Unfortunately, whilst a certain law remains there can never be true freedom of speech in LOS.

That law is often used to manipulate what people can say or what they have said.

[jdinasia]

The right to peaceful protest.

All protests cause inconvenience to some people.

When you proclaim in advance that you will be burning BKK to the ground as Arisaman did ... (a red leader) or the other calls for violence by the other red leaders from the red stages ... it isn't a peaceful protest even from the beginning. Add Sae daeng's "Ronin" into the mx and it is armed insurrection and not a protest at all.

Got any other records ??

This one's getting a bit stale.

Reminds me of Radio Caroline when the supplies boat couldn't get through.

Just out of curiosity, where did the 500 "Ronin" escape to ??

Amazing that, how 500 heavily armed warriors can just evaporate when wholly surrounded.....

Seems like the only arrests so far are Sae Daeng's cook and driver.

"Wholly surrounded"?

If the Ronin were in fact comprised of many Rangers and ex-rangers then getting in and out of an area with disputed borders isn't much of an issue is it? Proclaiming your intention IS violence precludes any claim to 'non-violence". It may be old to you but it is factual. Maybe what is old is claiming that there were EVER any non-violent intentions?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Of course there should be freedom of expression and peaceful protests tolerated, but I still have a right to dislike it. Running a busines in this climate has been shit. Most of us just want to buckle down, work hard, and get the economy going again. Running around scaring tourists on the walking street is not the way to win hearts and minds of anyone. Go and protest peacefully infront of the provincial hall or somewhere where people are not inconvenienced. With a track record of holding a city hostage, it is understandable that so many are not happy about reds at walking street...it is a family day out sort of place.

It is not just SMEs like me who are suffering, it is the very poor whose cause the reds are apparently championing who are losing jobs because no one wants to come to Chiang Mai anymore.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Oh, and my comments would be exactly the same if it were the yellows down on Tha Pae.

[uptheos]

Of course there should be freedom of expression and peaceful protests tolerated, but I still have a right to dislike it. Running a busines in this climate has been shit. Most of us just want to buckle down, work hard, and get the economy going again. Running around scaring tourists on the walking street is not the way to win hearts and minds of anyone. Go and protest peacefully infront of the provincial hall or somewhere where people are not inconvenienced. With a track record of holding a city hostage, it is understandable that so many are not happy about reds at walking street...it is a family day out sort of place.

It is not just SMEs like me who are suffering, it is the very poor whose cause the reds are apparently championing who are losing jobs because no one wants to come to Chiang Mai anymore.

The most inspiring single event in the practice of American democracy in the 20th century, occurred over the course of 382 days in Montgomery Alabama (the bus boycott).

Unfortunately it inconvenienced a great deal of people for almost a year.

If it hadn't, it would not have been successful and a total waste of time.

[jdinasia]

There is a HUGE difference between a bus boycott in Alabama and an armed insurrection in Bangkok 50 years later. Trying to compare a non-violent movement with an ultra-violent movement isn't sensible.

After April and May in BKK, and with the Red's history of violence in Chiang Mai they scare people; and rightfully so!

[uptheos]

There is a HUGE difference between a bus boycott in Alabama and an armed insurrection in Bangkok 50 years later. Trying to compare a non-violent movement with an ultra-violent movement isn't sensible.

After April and May in BKK, and with the Red's history of violence in Chiang Mai they scare people; and rightfully so!

Did I compare the two?

Can they demonstrate if they don't wear red shirts?

Oh and by the way I haven't advocated that they do anything illegal.......peaceful demonstrations are fine.......wherever.

Edited August 23, 2010 by uptheos

[Piengrudee]

Red are mostly poor because they are mostly uneducated. Red are mostly uneducated because they are mostly poor. Catch 22?

[philw]

There is a HUGE difference between a bus boycott in Alabama and an armed insurrection in Bangkok 50 years later. Trying to compare a non-violent movement with an ultra-violent movement isn't sensible.

After April and May in BKK, and with the Red's history of violence in Chiang Mai they scare people; and rightfully so!

Small correction but I thought the ultra violence came from the army.

[uptheos]

Don't worry too much about scared tourists.

Bangkok, July 22, 2010 — In spite of the sharp declines in arrivals during the political crisis months of May and June 2010, international visitor arrivals in the first four months of this year were still high enough to allow the country to enjoy a 13.70% increase in total arrivals in the first half.

Figures tabulated by the Ministry of Tourism and Sports in January-June 2010, showed total arrivals by nationality of 7,515,025 up from 6,609,313 or up 13.70% over the same period of 2009.

http://www.thaiembassymnl.ph/en/component/content/article/31-thailand-in-focus/163-total-visitor-arrivals-in-first-half-of-2010-still-up-13-.html

[jdinasia]

There is a HUGE difference between a bus boycott in Alabama and an armed insurrection in Bangkok 50 years later. Trying to compare a non-violent movement with an ultra-violent movement isn't sensible.

After April and May in BKK, and with the Red's history of violence in Chiang Mai they scare people; and rightfully so!

Small correction but I thought the ultra violence came from the army.

The movement and it's leadership is/was ultra-violent. The threats were constant and made before they even went to BKK. The response was slow and measured. I think the army and the government showed great restraint. You are free NOT to agree, but the deaths, whoever they are eventually attributed to, lay at the feet of the red leadership that promised the violence from the red stages.

Walk in ... unarmed ... promising non-violence ... and have a 'sit-in'? A whole different kettle of fish than going in armed after promising to burn down BKK.

[uptheos]

There is a HUGE difference between a bus boycott in Alabama and an armed insurrection in Bangkok 50 years later. Trying to compare a non-violent movement with an ultra-violent movement isn't sensible.

After April and May in BKK, and with the Red's history of violence in Chiang Mai they scare people; and rightfully so!

Small correction but I thought the ultra violence came from the army.

The movement and it's leadership is/was ultra-violent. The threats were constant and made before they even went to BKK. The response was slow and measured. I think the army and the government showed great restraint. You are free NOT to agree, but the deaths, whoever they are eventually attributed to, lay at the feet of the red leadership that promised the violence from the red stages.

Walk in ... unarmed ... promising non-violence ... and have a 'sit-in'? A whole different kettle of fish than going in armed after promising to burn down BKK.

Agreed, peaceful freedom of expression and protest is the way to go.

[mccw]

@ cmfun

in britian it's illegal to incite violence and hatred; most "civillised countries",as you condesendingly put it, have such laws curtaling absolute free speech in recognition of the need to protect society and people from those who would do a great deal of harm.

Corruption does need to be dealt with but you can't seriously b looking to the reds to root it out with their track record. I know dems are prity shadey Aswell but at least it looks like pm is trying to limits or stop what he can, for example this dodgey deal of ngv buses the former Tside coalition partners are pushing for. It won't b easy with such endemic corruption but with time and patience oldskool will be replaced with new and I'd trust abhisit to choose better than one of these red mafia esq bully boys.

The millitary being a part of politics is no bad thing; if no king and millitary Thailand would have been collonised, subjected to communism and be in a simillarly sorry state like Cambodia or Burma.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Unfortunately, whilst a certain law remains there can never be true freedom of speech in LOS.

That law is often used to manipulate what people can say or what they have said.

Exactly my point...

[ChiangMaiFun]

@ cmfun

in britian it's illegal to incite violence and hatred; most "civillised countries",as you condesendingly put it, have such laws curtaling absolute free speech in recognition of the need to protect society and people from those who would do a great deal of harm.

Corruption does need to be dealt with but you can't seriously b looking to the reds to root it out with their track record. I know dems are prity shadey Aswell but at least it looks like pm is trying to limits or stop what he can, for example this dodgey deal of ngv buses the former Tside coalition partners are pushing for. It won't b easy with such endemic corruption but with time and patience oldskool will be replaced with new and I'd trust abhisit to choose better than one of these red mafia esq bully boys.

The millitary being a part of politics is no bad thing; if no king and millitary Thailand would have been collonised, subjected to communism and be in a simillarly sorry state like Cambodia or Burma.

There is no law in England curtailing protesting or commenting on ANY institution - this is not absolute free speech but a basic human right in any civilised country - this is so basic a human right I am amazed you challenge it

[mccw]

@ cmfun

in britian it's illegal to incite violence and hatred; most "civillised countries",as you condesendingly put it, have such laws curtaling absolute free speech in recognition of the need to protect society and people from those who would do a great deal of harm.

Corruption does need to be dealt with but you can't seriously b looking to the reds to root it out with their track record. I know dems are prity shadey Aswell but at least it looks like pm is trying to limits or stop what he can, for example this dodgey deal of ngv buses the former Tside coalition partners are pushing for. It won't b easy with such endemic corruption but with time and patience oldskool will be replaced with new and I'd trust abhisit to choose better than one of these red mafia esq bully boys.

The millitary being a part of politics is no bad thing; if no king and millitary Thailand would have been collonised, subjected to communism and be in a simillarly sorry state like Cambodia or Burma.

There is no law in England curtailing protesting or commenting on ANY institution - this is not absolute free speech but a basic human right in any civilised country - this is so basic a human right I am amazed you challenge it

The redshirt media was shut down for inciting violence; it is the law in most countries that such is illegal.

As for the majeste laws in britian it is illegal to deface an image of the queen but it's never unforced; but besides it's their country and respected institution so let it be already, and anyway it's not actualy all that bad if you can understand this reasoning:

individuals are protected by defamation laws, however so the king isn't put into the situation of taking his subjects to court the lesse magiste law is there to do the same job but with the proseqution is out of his hands; burden of proof etc is still required; so basicaly same as any other citizens rights just specific to royals so they can remain indepent. Not realy a big deal but something idealistic westerners seem to get worked up about

[ogb]

There is a HUGE difference between a bus boycott in Alabama and an armed insurrection in Bangkok 50 years later. Trying to compare a non-violent movement with an ultra-violent movement isn't sensible.

After April and May in BKK, and with the Red's history of violence in Chiang Mai they scare people; and rightfully so!

Small correction but I thought the ultra violence came from the army.

The movement and it's leadership is/was ultra-violent. The threats were constant and made before they even went to BKK. The response was slow and measured. I think the army and the government showed great restraint. You are free NOT to agree, but the deaths, whoever they are eventually attributed to, lay at the feet of the red leadership that promised the violence from the red stages.

Walk in ... unarmed ... promising non-violence ... and have a 'sit-in'? A whole different kettle of fish than going in armed after promising to burn down BKK.

Wasn't the protest peaceful when it started back in March, when the numbers were high?

The burn Bkk threats seemed to mainly come as a deterrent to violent dispersal, which looked an increasing probability as, like in April 2009, the Democrat led government was again most fortunate in having a certain powerfully aligned military regiment on its side, and the redshirts in their desperation were foolish to accept help from certain rogue military elements that were opposed to the aforementioned powerfully aligned regiment)

At the same time PM Abhisit had acted completely contradictory to the way he advised the PPP government should have acted when faced with the PAD protests, occupation of government house & airports (see previous quote for an example)

The other thing to remember that the redshirt protests are a response to a military coup, backed up by judicial intervention (which has over-ridden the winners of the previous 4 national elections), so their anger is certainly justified. It is well documented that injustice leads to violence, so personally I am quite surprised that they have remained relatively peaceful for so long.

I know all hel_l would break loose in most wetern democracies if similar events had happened in those countries.

[ChiangMaiFun]

@ cmfun

in britian it's illegal to incite violence and hatred; most "civillised countries",as you condesendingly put it, have such laws curtaling absolute free speech in recognition of the need to protect society and people from those who would do a great deal of harm.

Corruption does need to be dealt with but you can't seriously b looking to the reds to root it out with their track record. I know dems are prity shadey Aswell but at least it looks like pm is trying to limits or stop what he can, for example this dodgey deal of ngv buses the former Tside coalition partners are pushing for. It won't b easy with such endemic corruption but with time and patience oldskool will be replaced with new and I'd trust abhisit to choose better than one of these red mafia esq bully boys.

The millitary being a part of politics is no bad thing; if no king and millitary Thailand would have been collonised, subjected to communism and be in a simillarly sorry state like Cambodia or Burma.

There is no law in England curtailing protesting or commenting on ANY institution - this is not absolute free speech but a basic human right in any civilised country - this is so basic a human right I am amazed you challenge it

The redshirt media was shut down for inciting violence; it is the law in most countries that such is illegal.

As for the majeste laws in britian it is illegal to deface an image of the queen but it's never unforced; but besides it's their country and respected institution so let it be already, and anyway it's not actualy all that bad if you can understand this reasoning:

individuals are protected by defamation laws, however so the king isn't put into the situation of taking his subjects to court the lesse magiste law is there to do the same job but with the proseqution is out of his hands; burden of proof etc is still required; so basicaly same as any other citizens rights just specific to royals so they can remain indepent. Not realy a big deal but something idealistic westerners seem to get worked up about

we cannot talk about the Royal family here - you have broken that rule - 200,000 web sites were shut down here - go figure

[ogb]

Cannot talk about it, yet PM Abhisit & his CRES are happy to talk about crazy conspiracy mind maps though

(PM in particular should know better than making such incitements after the shameful events of October 1976)

Edited August 23, 2010 by ogb