Anger Over Red Shirts Riot Autopsy Reports

[jdinasia]

If there is a THIRD violent outbreak by the reds in BKK, I wouldn't expect the same patience and restraint from the government as before. (Which may be exactly why Thaksin is pushing this before October again ... to force more violent reaction from the government. This government has stayed stable despite the violence of the red shirt mob. A first in Thailand if I am not mistaken.

[rubl]

I just wish the authorities had reacted more harshly & sooner once the plan of the terrorists became known.

Early March things started relatively peacefully, no reason at all for the government to re-act harshly. Even the broadcast of UDD speaches on PTV was allowed to continue for a while, maybe for longer than would have been possible in 'real' democracies in the West. Once the government started to move and tried to clear the first protest site on April the 10th, it was the unknown black shirts who caused mayhem on both sides, including killing a colonel with his staff. At that time there already had been grenade attacks and more would follow. The clearing of Ratchaprasong took days and under circumstances was more-or-less controlled. The end of it with burning, looting, rampage was not really expected (although spoken of by UDD leaders). Could all this have been prevented? Maybe if talks had progressed better from the start. Talks there have been, but no result. IMHO the UDD was to blame for a larger part, especially with going back and forth with demands AND at the same time having a militant group raining grenades on BKK AND imploring their innocence. I missed the BTS Saladaeng attack by a few hours, lucky me. Maybe that makes me prejudiced?

[OzMick]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

High speed bullets are constructed so that they crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage.

No. Under the Geneva convention, military rounds are copper jacketed so that they pretty much retain their shape, though they can shatter if they hit bone. Hunting rounds are usually semi-jacketed so that the head will mushroom thus giving the greatest energy transfer or shock. The army would definitely be using military rounds in their M-16s, and most of the reds observed were carrying AK47s. Mil ammo for the AK is plentiful and very cheap, much like the people holding them.

[TAWP]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

High speed bullets are constructed so that they crumble on impact leaving only fragments that causes more damage.

No. Under the Geneva convention, military rounds are copper jacketed so that they pretty much retain their shape, though they can shatter if they hit bone. Hunting rounds are usually semi-jacketed so that the head will mushroom thus giving the greatest energy transfer or shock. The army would definitely be using military rounds in their M-16s, and most of the reds observed were carrying AK47s. Mil ammo for the AK is plentiful and very cheap, much like the people holding them.

Well, yes and no...the 5.56 NATO round will tumble and fragment when hitting a human torso while the 7.62 NATO will tumble perhaps half a rotation before it over-penetrates and exits.

But this is at a decently close range, as impact velocity determines the effect the bullet has.

Some ref:

Testing by combat surgeon Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD (USA Medical Corps, retired), determined that M193 and M855 bullets need to strike flesh at 2,700 feet per second in order to reliably fragment. Between 2,500 fps and 2,700 fps, the bullet may or may not fragment and below 2,500 fps, no significant fragmentation is likely to occur. If there isn't enough velocity to cause fragmentation, the result is a deep, 22 caliber hole, except an area where the yawing occurred, where the diameter of the hole grows briefly to the length of the bullet.

M193 rounds after close encounters with ballistic gelatin at various velocities. (Fackler)

[DickFarang]

If the Japanese are happy, and the Italian are happy, why can't us Thai are happy with DSI results?

Who is happy about the people killed and wounded ? You ?

[scorecard]

Cynically speaking, I doubt the DSI will reveal the full truth, for it would likely be quite damning. However, if you want to point fingers and get outraged you should be asking for a dual investigation here;

1. The manner in which these people were killed

2. The circumstances which brought them there in the first place.

Both are responsible, and both reprehensible.

Why do you say "Cynically speaking, I doubt the DSI will reveal the full truth, for it would likely be quite damning." YDamming of who?

[scorecard]

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

Please document this outrageous claim with a news source.

Excuse me, do you live in Thailand..?? How could you live here and not hear about such things?

Nay - I apologize - mine is the impression of a foreigner who sees what he regards as repression, greed, corruption, arrogance and ignorance, every day.

I'm not sure you need to live in Thailand to have heart some. Also lots of hearsay, rumors, etc. Certainly in Thailand you may hear almost anything depending on who you ask

I am STILL waiting on ANY reliable documentation of the claims made by Ysaan that the sister of the dead Italian journalist was "terrorized" and by whom. Perhaps dighambara can provide us with a credible source?

Agree, how come none of this story of the sister being threathened with death has ever appeared before. The poster should provide a source for such a serious claim.

[Buchholz]

they are not happy.

The sister of the italian reporter who has been shot and killed in cold blood, came to Thailand and had a conference.

She was terrorized already during the conference, a day later she has been warned by an unidentified military to go back to Italy immediately otherwise she would have been killed.

These are her words (I don t have a reason to think she was liying since she really left after that) and if you don't believe me or her,you are free to go to Italy and ask her for yourself.

Please document this outrageous claim with a news source.

Agree, how come none of this story of the sister being threatened with death has ever appeared before. The poster should provide a source for such a serious claim.

I was going to ask also, but perhaps it's best not to ask too many questions or make any demands

Edited August 24, 2010 by sbk
deleted quoted post removed

[sbk]

As posted previously by Mario, if you are going to make claims then please back them up with linked valid news sources.

Also, an inflammatory post has been removed. Keep it a civil debate or members who insist on baiting and flaming will be suspended.

[mccw]

reds, they had every chance to deal or leave but chose violence, no one to blame but yourselves.

Shame for your famillies you leave behind because your actions.

RIP ordinary soldgiers just doing their job.

Edited August 24, 2010 by mccw

[asiawatcher]

Not much an autopsy can tell you beyond likely type of bullet, if there is not bullet to examine.

High speed bullets usually pass right through, so nothing but angle and deflection and size info can be inferred.

No gun, no bullet no ballistics comparison, and that's forensics and not an autopsy.

At the likely distances trace of charge composition would likely be negligible.

The lack of info has nothing to do with DSI or CRESS trying to hide anything,

but more with the logic of the situation of each individual shooting.

Agree totally - and the Reds covered, destroyed or damaged the security CCTV cameras (for what ever reason?) that could have exhonerated some of their bogus claims - play with the big boys someone is bound to get hurt or dead! Som num na. And maybe the truth will never be revealed as everyone is finger pointing but no one 'witnessed it'? To be sure - a cover up all around.

90 dead and a couple of thousand injured and " Som num na " is it ???

Of course they were shot by the army and of course there is a cover up but eventually this will or should rebound on the current government.

And please don't bother to respond with the usual rubbish that they were all shot by their own side because it's laughable.

Yep - some were shot by the red buffaloes and the others by the army? Why are you hiding from the 'facts'? Som num na - yup again!

[Piengrudee]

I believe that the Red shirts shot the army. Also Red shirts shot their own side. Army shot no one.

[rixalex]

90 dead and a couple of thousand injured and " Som num na " is it ???

Of course they were shot by the army and of course there is a cover up but eventually this will or should rebound on the current government.

And please don't bother to respond with the usual rubbish that they were all shot by their own side because it's laughable.

You're the only person I've seen that suggested that all the reds were shot by their own side.

The poster has a history of making this claim:

I completely agree with you but the same criticism applies to those on TV who insist that the army never shot any reds, because of the absence of specific photographic evidence............

"The army never shot any reds" is an argument i have never heard being made. Who made it and when?

I'm still awaiting an answer....

[rixalex]

I believe that the Red shirts shot the army. Also Red shirts shot their own side. Army shot no one.

You haven't changed one bit Rucharee.

[hammered]

One side for poltical reasons wanted a bunch of martyrs. The other side didnt want them. Then the side that wanted martyrs killed a bunch of soldiers. Then there was some revenge and some more attempts to kill more soldiers. Then there was loads of burning around the country. Then came the spin games which are totally transparent

[hanuman1]

I believe that the Red shirts shot the army. Also Red shirts shot their own side. Army shot no one.

Your comment is an absolute joke. Thanks for making me laugh.

[SamritT]

When the due date is up, DSI will have another press conference, and say, another 60 days extension.

[Asa]

I like the look of K. Samrit T, she, (or maybe a he with GF avatar) is funny, but she made carefree comments, and out of this world mostly.

No, I think we would never ever learn the truth. Only to blame those in charge at the time, those with deadlier fire power, over size in number and weaponry, and those who will benefit by the truth untold. I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evident to point my fingers at TG and RTA, CRES and DSI who are hindering the case. To say the reds shot themselves is insulting.

[rubl]

No, I think we would never ever learn the truth. Only to blame those in charge at the time, those with deadlier fire power, over size in number and weaponry, and those who will benefit by the truth untold. I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evident to point my fingers at TG and RTA, CRES and DSI who are hindering the case. To say the reds shot themselves is insulting.

"To say the reds shot themselves is insulting." Correct.

As for the rest I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evidence to point my fingers to the sky and start orating. And before I forget "Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam", as always IMHO.

[astral]

Surely calibre of bullet, and trajectory help fill in the forensic picture??

Oops, forgot, this is Thailand.

[jdinasia]

No, I think we would never ever learn the truth. Only to blame those in charge at the time, those with deadlier fire power, over size in number and weaponry, and those who will benefit by the truth untold. I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evident to point my fingers at TG and RTA, CRES and DSI who are hindering the case. To say the reds shot themselves is insulting.

"To say the reds shot themselves is insulting." Correct.

As for the rest I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evidence to point my fingers to the sky and start orating. And before I forget "Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam", as always IMHO.

LOL

But to say that some people in the pay of the biggest red leader shot some pawns to garner international sympathy isn't insulting and very likely is nothing but the truth.

To say that you don't need evidence to lay the blame on someone though .... well .....

Those who would benefit from Reds dying in a public manner .... that would be .. not the government, not the CRES, not the DSI .. it would be those that wanted the reds to get the sympathy and those that wanted the government to look harsh or cruel. Who wanted that? Thaksin and his thugs. There is some evidence to support this line of reasoning as seen by video from the April attacks. The fact that all the international press stated firing was coming from both sides gives people all they REALLY need to know. Add that to Arisaman's public statements that they would burn BKK down before the "protest" which is more properly labeled as an armed insurrection and you do have all the evidence needed to place the blame on the proper people. It wasn't what happened on May 19th that caused the problem but all the violent red rhetoric and the fact that they were armed well in advance of that awful day.

[hanuman1]

No, I think we would never ever learn the truth. Only to blame those in charge at the time, those with deadlier fire power, over size in number and weaponry, and those who will benefit by the truth untold. I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evident to point my fingers at TG and RTA, CRES and DSI who are hindering the case. To say the reds shot themselves is insulting.

"To say the reds shot themselves is insulting." Correct.

As for the rest I don't need a doctorate degree, nor hard evidence to point my fingers to the sky and start orating. And before I forget "Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam", as always IMHO.

LOL

But to say that some people in the pay of the biggest red leader shot some pawns to garner international sympathy isn't insulting and very likely is nothing but the truth.

To say that you don't need evidence to lay the blame on someone though .... well .....

Those who would benefit from Reds dying in a public manner .... that would be .. not the government, not the CRES, not the DSI .. it would be those that wanted the reds to get the sympathy and those that wanted the government to look harsh or cruel. Who wanted that? Thaksin and his thugs.

Right, so if (God forbid) you were to shuffle off this mortal coil early, then you'd agree that those in receipt of your life insurance should automatically be investigated for criminal activity.

Your line of reasoning is somewhat simplistic. Got anything a bit more sophisticated that we can take more seriously?

[yellow1red1]

The directions of travel of the bullets should be easy, elevation and distance. where the shots were fired 'from' should be made public. But this is going to be ' a long story ', like who shot Kennedy?.

A friend's, wife's son, who is champion Thai military marksmen says the rumor in military is it was the CIA. it's true this being said though not necessarily 'true' but proof these killings will never have 'closure', never! it will be like who shot JFKish forever

;;; even if facts would be shown, which they won't, the other sides won't believe it...

'solving' these killings will never happen, ever and even if it was it would not stop the hand basket which is going to hades.

[TAWP]

The directions of travel of the bullets should be easy,

Alright, Sherlock.

You are served a man from the cooler. He has been shot. You determine that he was shot in the right arm, at an 41 degree angle. Now what?

[yellow1red1]

The directions of travel of the bullets should be easy,

Alright, Sherlock.

You are served a man from the cooler. He has been shot. You determine that he was shot in the right arm, at an 41 degree angle. Now what?

elementary Watson, view all videos and eye witness reports to show where the shooters were; as you edited my post, no proof will ever come to any good, anyway and even if they 'got to the bottom of the killings' would that suddenly bring about peace? not in our lifetiems

[TAWP]

The directions of travel of the bullets should be easy,

Alright, Sherlock.

You are served a man from the cooler. He has been shot. You determine that he was shot in the right arm, at an 41 degree angle. Now what?

elementary Watson, view all videos and eye witness reports to show where the shooters were; as you edited my post, no proof will ever come to any good, anyway and even if they 'got to the bottom of the killings' would that suddenly bring about peace? not in our lifetiems

This might surprise you but it seems that most people shot isn't captured on camera at the time of being so, as oppose to after the fact when they are being dragged away by others.

[yellow1red1]

noticed you castigated those who criticised their 'hosts' and the outdated cosmic rays study, then you criticised the 'hosts' for the iodine study....

can you spell inconsistency?

looks like you can turn your own knobs without my assistance

the truth is 90% of the deaths, via evidence of the wounds and which way the victims were standing or running away could place the location of the shooters.

why you want to get insulting is harder to do the 'forensics' not getting any?

[whybother]

noticed you castigated those who criticised their 'hosts' and the outdated cosmic rays study, then you criticised the 'hosts' for the iodine study....

can you spell inconsistency?

looks like you can turn your own knobs without my assistance

the truth is 90% of the deaths, via evidence of the wounds and which way the victims were standing or running away could place the location of the shooters.

why you want to get insulting is harder to do the 'forensics' not getting any?

Is there evidence of which way the victims were standing or running when they were shot?

Most of those that were shot were taken to hospital by ambulances or the victims friends. There are no crime scenes where the police were able to view the body immediately after it was shot.

[jayjay0]

The minute I saw

Human-rights activists

I stopped reading the article.

All the Thais who lost there means of making a living due to peoplle delibertly breaking the law and forcing them out of there means of making a living mean nothing to those whiners.

Why is it they never care for the rights of innocent people just criminals.

[rixalex]

Everyone's a wannabe Herashio these days. Crime busting lark all looks so easy. Some people seem to think it really is.