Marrying A Thai Woman

[Sakeopete]

I tend to have a private snicker when I read threads by guys claiming they have hi-so wives. Mostly because Thais tend to be racist and believe they are superior to other races. True educated (not the ones with the worthless Thai university degree that are easier to get than a western high school diploma)hi-so Thais don't marry anyone but Thai or Thai-Chinese. As for the Thai-Chinese marriages are still somewhat arranged based on the financial benefits to both family's.

It seems to me that women marrying for gain in social status is very common in Asia and not uncommon in the rest of the world. Even bar girls are respected in Thailand as Thais tend to respect people based on their wealth. They don't seem to care much how the wealthy was achieved.

As in most cases of people putting down others on these threads and in public its just a case of Freudian "Sour Grapes". Thais in banks and shops make make nasty comments towards Thai women with Farang but its pure envy and no one really cares.

[Berkshire]

You should take a look at some white guys women, some times I'm ashamed for my race!

As the Thai guys like to say "where do white men find such ugly women"

This is actually something that Thai folks talk about all the time, especially the women. There's a Thai guy that writes on Stickman's Green Star reader submissions who discusses this very phenomenon. I do wonder sometimes if every farang knows what every Thai seems to know.

[Loz]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. or in the case of the sex tourism locales, beauty is in the eye of the atm cardholder.

[TaoNow]

Mark45y (and others of a similar bent) -- it's fine to do your back-of-the-envelope calculations as part of a lively pub conversation.

But this is a public forum with global reach which was created (I think) to help others learn about Thailand and to help ex-pats adjust skillfully to life here.

Therefore, when you want to make generalizations about Thailand you need to be credible.

What are your credentials to be making estimates of the number and proportion of Thai women who sell sex?

What are your credible sources of information?

Unless you provide references to some scientific studies that are national in scope you need to accept the published figures produced by qualified researchers.

I assure you, the topic of the size of the Thai sex worker population has been studied exhaustively by epidemiologists and social scientists up to the present time.

The results of multiple scientific studies consistently estimate the number of women in the sex trade at any one time to be several hundred thousand (or about 1% of total women 15-49 yrs).

Your wildly exaggerate estimates should be left in the pub. Otherwise your remarks come off as trollish and, thus, against Forum rules.

[tropo]

I have read a lot of sailing logs from the South Seas, China, Japan and western places such as San Francisco and London. I didn't find the same contractual relationships available nor the mention of high society ladies working in brothels. I always thought these practices unique to Thailand.

It didn't need to be logged by sailing ships in the South Seas. Contractual relationships are nothing new and not unique to Thailand.

[bonobo]

I am not claiming to be an expert here, but I think there is one factor which negates much of the "she must be a bar girl" ideology.  And that is the birth of a child.

If a foreigner/Thai couple is seen walking with a child, the smiles seem to come out and many of the assumptions seem to fade away.  

I have been to Naratiwat, KK, and Loei with Thai women, none with children, and I know the comments about their background were made by others (for the record, one was a professor in Loei, one was an accountant in Bangkok, and one was a student in Bangkok).  

Yet when I met a woman in Surin who had a infant, all comments directed at us were positive, and I was told over an over again how lucky I was to have such a wonderful family.  What is ironic is that I am pretty sure the woman in question had worked the trade, so-to-speak, and her child was a result of that occupation.

On the other hand, my theory on children may not be that valid when I consider the one woman I actually dated who had been in the trade.  She was very light-skinned and quite striking, and she made her living for ten years as a mia noi for various high-placed Thai men before she realized that at 30, she wanted a real husband. As far as I know, no comments about her being a bargirl were made within earshot.  But the three women I mentioned above were all fairly dark-skinned and short, with two being curvy rather than slender.

Anyway, just food for thought.

[tropo]

. Mostly because Thais tend to be racist and believe they are superior to other races.

I disagree with this. Perhaps in the small SE Asian sphere of Cambodia, Laos and Burma, but that's about it. They know they are far behind the 8-ball in world wide affairs.

[bonobo]

Mark45y (and others of a similar bent) -- it's fine to do your back-of-the-envelope calculations as part of a lively pub conversation.

The results of multiple scientific studies consistently estimate the number of women in the sex trade at any one time to be several hundred thousand (or about 1% of total women 15-49 yrs).

I am usually bemused by what I consider to be exaggerated claims of the numbers of sex trade workers in Thailand. I think this is because many people or congregate in places where these workers are readily visible. So add up all the bars in Pattaya, for example, and it seems like a lot.

However, go to Chonburi at any one of the many, many factories there and wait for shift change. I have been at one factory where 6,000 workers exchange position, most of them being women. It wouldn't take too many factories like that to overwhelm, on a numerical basis, all the sex trade workers down the road in Pattaya.

And that says nothing of the farmers, office clerks, store staffs, etc, in their multitudes.

[bermondburi]

I am not claiming to be an expert here, but I think there is one factor which negates much of the "she must be a bar girl" ideology. And that is the birth of a child.

If a foreigner/Thai couple is seen walking with a child, the smiles seem to come out and many of the assumptions seem to fade away.

I have been to Naratiwat, KK, and Loei with Thai women, none with children, and I know the comments about their background were made by others (for the record, one was a professor in Loei, one was an accountant in Bangkok, and one was a student in Bangkok).

Yet when I met a woman in Surin who had a infant, all comments directed at us were positive, and I was told over an over again how lucky I was to have such a wonderful family. What is ironic is that I am pretty sure the woman in question had worked the trade, so-to-speak, and her child was a result of that occupation.

On the other hand, my theory on children may not be that valid when I consider the one woman I actually dated who had been in the trade. She was very light-skinned and quite striking, and she made her living for ten years as a mia noi for various high-placed Thai men before she realized that at 30, she wanted a real husband. As far as I know, no comments about her being a bargirl were made within earshot. But the three women I mentioned above were all fairly dark-skinned and short, with two being curvy rather than slender.

Anyway, just food for thought.

EXCELLENT POINT !!

Having two children myself here with my wife I have noticed this many times. If I am with my wife without my children then people can be quite judgemental based on appearances, although after speaking to my wife it becomes quite apparent that she is a regular girl and woe betide someone who says something in earshot because they are going to get an earful.

However there is a marked difference in how people speak to us treat etc us when our children are with us which is most of the time. People would see that we are a family and have obviously been together a long time. Plus the fact that Thailand is a very children friendly country anyway. We could go to a restaurant and there are ten babysitters in waiting. Lost count of the times that has happened. Go to a shop and it's all smiles. Where we live in Nonthaburi everyone knows who we are and what are childrens' names are. We get better service if our kids are there and people are a lot more polite.Not saying that people aren't polite if the children aren't there though. Had so many freebies and stuff bought for the children from strangers. Can't really explain it but it's a bit like you have got shares in the country and people see you're not just passing through. That's my thoughts on this, what do other people think ?

[Loz]

Bonobo,

I don't expect this to be a popular post but, have you considered that "some" of those factory workers might have "second jobs"?

I know from first hand experience that what can seem to be a nice girl with a respectable job, is also "in the profession". I was propositioned by a girl while still in her work whites. I was looking for directions and before I could stop her she had opened the door and hoped in the car!

All that glitters is not gold.

[bermondburi]

Saying that 50% or more women in Thailand have been involved in the P4P business is assuming that 50% of the Thai women are actually attractive enough to do it.

If you live in Thailand, just go out in the street and check around you, how many women are looking attractive? Just a few.

Are you serious? How long have you been in Thailand? Do you still not have any idea of what these girls can do with makeup? Just about every sex worker in Pattaya wears a full mask including eyelashes...the whole production. Couple that with well chosen attire and far more than 50% are attractive enough to "do it".

" what these girls can do with make up" You talk as if they can wave a magic wand. A rough bird is a rough bird and make up isn't going to help that much.

And even with all that make up they still look pretty rough. As for chosen attire. In most cases it doesn't do you a lot of favours when you have a map of the world on your belly and a few tramp stamps!

It is a magic wand. It's unbelievable what the girls in Pattaya can achieve with makeup. They are extremely skilled at it, and any girl with average or better comes out looking fine. Couple this with dim lights and failing eyesight and they're all looking like stunners lol.

Now perhaps you don't like the made up look yourself, but you don't speak for the majority of people that's for sure. All the girls wear makeup here whether they work in a store or in a bar. As far as attire is concerned, I don't get your line of reasoning at all. The girls dress very well in Pattaya and they have a huge assortment of copy clothes to choose from. I'm talking about copies of the latest international fashions. You really are out of touch, just as I was until my wife schooled me in as she is a fanatical clothes shopper and a dedicated follower of fashion.

I guess it depends on what you are used to but if you say that" THEY'RE ALL LOOKING LIKE STUNNERS " I would have to say get down to Specsavers !

IMMEDIATELY !!!

Maybe I am in the minority but overweight, often over the hill women with stretch marks and tattoos just doesn't do it for me. But then again I'm not a dedicated follower of fashion like yourself ..........

[bonobo]

Bonobo,

I don't expect this to be a popular post but, have you considered that "some" of those factory workers might have "second jobs"?

I know from first hand experience that what can seem to be a nice girl with a respectable job, is also "in the profession". I was propositioned by a girl while still in her work whites. I was looking for directions and before I could stop her she had opened the door and hoped in the car!

All that glitters is not gold.  

Of course there are women who moonlight after they get out of the factory.   But I don't think that many.  First, if you see how hard they work and the hours they put in, most women would be a little tired to go off galavanting in the bars.  And when you look at where most of the factories are, places at which to pursue the other type of work are usually at some distance away.

More women (or men, for that matter) might do some sex trade moonlighting on their day off, but I still think those that do don't make that much of a dent statistically speaking in the number of sex trade workers in the country.

My opinion, anyway. 

[nocturn]

I took my wife back to the UK and no-one thought she was a bar girl. At all times, I made her dress in an expensive ladies suit, Gucci shoes, and had her hair tied back, whilst sporting sexy secretarial style glasses.

I left her in a bar in London when I had to go out and do some business. When I came back 2 hrs later, i was told that she had won 24 games of pool on the trot, knocked back 15 free sambucas, and bottled the landlady for not letting her shoot any more ping pong balls from her hogs eye.

After 3 hrs in the UK, Our cover was blown.

it seemed an appropriate time in this thread to bring back the definitive response to this burning question.

[sillyman99]

I took my wife back to the UK and no-one thought she was a bar girl. At all times, I made her dress in an expensive ladies suit, Gucci shoes, and had her hair tied back, whilst sporting sexy secretarial style glasses.

I left her in a bar in London when I had to go out and do some business. When I came back 2 hrs later, i was told that she had won 24 games of pool on the trot, knocked back 15 free sambucas, and bottled the landlady for not letting her shoot any more ping pong balls from her hogs eye.

After 3 hrs in the UK, Our cover was blown.

it seemed an appropriate time in this thread to bring back the definitive response to this burning question.

Yep, thats the best post on this thread.

[flying]

Can't really explain it but it's a bit like you have got shares in the country and people see you're not just passing through. That's my thoughts on this, what do other people think ?

Nice post !

Especially these last lines

Edited September 20, 2010 by flying

[bonobo]

Can't really explain it but it's a bit like you have got shares in the country and people see you're not just passing through. That's my thoughts on this, what do other people think ?

Nice post !

Especially these last lines

I agree with flying here.  Your post, bermonburi, seems to make sense to me based on my observations. 

[Loz]

Thats a very good way to put it. If you have kids here, you DO have shares. And like all share holders know, you'll be invited to the rubber chicken dinners and the AGM but expected to keep your house in order and your mouth shut.

Not knocking it at all. I used to feel as a teacher with no HIT (Hoe-in-tow) people saw me more as part of the 'do gooder" fabric. But the interesting point you make is this.

Are Thai's more accepting if you appear to be "Mr Long-Time" than "Mr Short time"?

I think its a question worth asking as Sooooo many thais on meeting me ask how long I've been here and how long I am staying. When I have mentioned going home recently I find even the most sweet natured people have thrown out the " You don't love Thailand anymore" card... which aside from being pathetic, is a strong indicator that seeing things in black and white (absolute terms) is not uncommon here.

[bonobo]

Thats a very good way to put it. If you have kids here, you DO have shares. And like all share holders know, you'll be invited to the rubber chicken dinners and the AGM but expected to keep your house in order and your mouth shut.

Not knocking it at all. I used to feel as a teacher with no HIT (Hoe-in-tow) people saw me more as part of the 'do gooder" fabric. But the interesting point you make is this.

Are Thai's more accepting if you appear to be "Mr Long-Time" than "Mr Short time"?

I think its a question worth asking as Sooooo many thais on meeting me ask how long I've been here and how long I am staying. When I have mentioned going home recently I find even the most sweet natured people have thrown out the " You don't love Thailand anymore" card...   which aside from being pathetic, is a strong indicator that seeing things in black and white (absolute terms) is not uncommon here.

I think Thais are more accepting of "Mr. Long-time."  No matter why you might be in Thailand, if you are considered "Mr. Short-time," the suspicion is that you are here for a fling and sowing of oats.  But if you are perceived as really setting down roots, you are assumed to have bought into the system and are looked upon with much more favor.

For foreign women, I think the assumption is that you have bought into the system already, whereas a man might have to demonstrate that.  (Yet I know a European woman here who is much more of a horn-dog than 99% of the men I know, yet Thais seem to gravitate towards her with "sweet' being the most common description of her.)

[sillyman99]

I think it all depends on when and why you came to Thailand.

I came to Thailand when I was 35 Years old and have been here ever since, it'll be 20 years in December.

So I guess that at 55 Yrs old now and 20 years in Thailand already, I've spent quite a portion of my life here.

I have been in the UK for a total of 3 months in 20 years, so to me Thailand is home, its not some playground to go to to exploit poor people.

I see the wrong, the bad, just as I did in the UK, but I refuse to dam_n the whole Thai population because of the actions of a few.

It would like me stating that all Thai people are hard working, honest , friendly, trustworthy because of a personal experience with hard working, honest, friendly and trustworthy Thai people.

It would be foolish of me to say that all Thai people were that way.

I have been shown extreme kindness by Thai people who really had nothing much to offer, but what they did have was mine too. I also know that not all Thai people are that way.

Is it any different to anywhere else in the World ?

As I have mentioned in other threads, the only people ever to rip me off in Thailand have been Farangs, does that mean all Farangs in Thailand are bad ?

No, of course it doesn't, and its the same with Thai people.

There's good and bad in everyone, including us.

Edited September 20, 2010 by sillyman99

[Jimi007]

I think it all depends on when and why you came to Thailand.

I came to Thailand when I was 35 Years old and have been here ever since, it'll be 20 years in December.

So I guess that at 55 Yrs old now and 20 years in Thailand already, I've spent quite a portion of my life here.

I have been in the UK for a total of 3 months in 20 years, so to me Thailand is home, its not some playground to go to to exploit poor people.

I see the wrong, the bad, just as I did in the UK, but I refuse to dam_n the whole Thai population because of the actions of a few.

It would like me stating that all Thai people are hard working, honest , friendly, trustworthy because of a personal experience with hard working, honest, friendly and trustworthy Thai people.

It would be foolish of me to say that all Thai people were that way.

I have been shown extreme kindness by Thai people who really had nothing much to offer, but what they did have was mine too. I also know that not all Thai people are that way.

Is it any different to anywhere else in the World ?

As I have mentioned in other threads, the only people ever to rip me off in Thailand have been Farangs, does that mean all Farangs in Thailand are bad ?

No, of course it doesn't, and its the same with Thai people.

There's good and bad in everyone, including us.

I have said the same as you in many posts; there are good and bad people from everywhere in the world! One needs to weed their garden, for the good plants to grow. If you associate with good people, then your life is usually better. It certainly doesn't matter how much money someone has, it has much more to do with them having a good heart and mind!

Edited September 20, 2010 by Jimi007

[sarahsbloke]

I have said the same as you in many posts; there are good and bad people from everywhere in the world! One needs to weed their garden, for the good plants to grow. If you associate with good people, then your life is usually better. It certainly doesn't matter how much money someone has, it has much more to do with them having a good heart and mind!

I always find the good people extraordinarily dull, especially in the bedroom, the bad people are much more fun!

Edited September 20, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[mark45y]

Mark45y (and others of a similar bent) -- it's fine to do your back-of-the-envelope calculations as part of a lively pub conversation.

But this is a public forum with global reach which was created (I think) to help others learn about Thailand and to help ex-pats adjust skillfully to life here.

Therefore, when you want to make generalizations about Thailand you need to be credible.

What are your credentials to be making estimates of the number and proportion of Thai women who sell sex?

What are your credible sources of information?

Unless you provide references to some scientific studies that are national in scope you need to accept the published figures produced by qualified researchers.

I assure you, the topic of the size of the Thai sex worker population has been studied exhaustively by epidemiologists and social scientists up to the present time.

The results of multiple scientific studies consistently estimate the number of women in the sex trade at any one time to be several hundred thousand (or about 1% of total women 15-49 yrs).

Your wildly exaggerate estimates should be left in the pub. Otherwise your remarks come off as trollish and, thus, against Forum rules.

It may surprise you to know that I have degrees in both Sociology and Anthropology. I also have done my share of field studies in the area of cultural anthropology.

In the cases of Thailand I am reminded of Margaret Mead's hoaxed study that is still taught at some universities as the truth.

I don’t drink so I don’t hang out much in pubs but let me assure you that my numbers are far more accurate than the studies done by sociologist about Thailand and I’ll tell you why.

They don’t know where to look or who to talk to and they can’t find a Thai to help them.

You could drop a sociologist off in the middle of Pattaya and tell him to count the number of bars in town. His numbers would be about 50% less than mine because he doesn’t know what a bar looks like. Most Farangs as evidenced by this thread don’t know what a Thai bar looks like or where they are or who frequents them.

The same sociologist would not know that beauty shops in Pattaya are brothels. Or ask him to find a casino, how many of those are in Pattaya.

Any serious attempt at listing sin in sin city would be met with violence from both the sinners, and the cops and robbers. And the same is true in almost any Thai town of more than 20,000 in population.

If anyone had realistic data and tried to publish said data they could never re enter Thailand.

The same thing happened in Vietnam during the American war there. God help the newsman or sociologist who published accurate information about women or drugs. I know because I almost got put in jail for trying.

I am telling you the truth and you don’t believe it. That is certainly your prerogative.

You like to look up things, OK here is one for you. Rayong is the HIV capital of Thailand. If you dig hard enough you can find that information. Now tell me why. You will never find that information. No one wants you to know. Same with the studies you are referring to they are all fatally flawed.

[Jimi007]

I have said the same as you in many posts; there are good and bad people from everywhere in the world! One needs to weed their garden, for the good plants to grow. If you associate with good people, then your life is usually better. It certainly doesn't matter how much money someone has, it has much more to do with them having a good heart and mind!

I always find the good people extraordinarily dull, especially in the bedroom, the bad people are much more fun!

Hum, to each his or her own. I find bad ones a bit scary, and not very loving... But I guess they can be fun for a "short time!" If that happens to be your thing. But I thought this thread was titled: "Marrying a Thai Woman." Or was it; "my one night stand with a wild thing?"

[richieudon]

If you want to avoid people thinking you girl is 'vacation fun', don't dress like a tourist.

Too many expats here dress like they are on vacation or don't care much.

If you dress up, atleast they will think your lady is high-price girl instead of cheapest the street offered.

True story.

To be honest when im there i wear what im comfortable in if thats t-shirt n shorts through the day then thats what i wear , if i go for a nite out a nice shirt and trousers , im not really worried what people think when they look at us in Thailand or the Uk , Basically im not changing for anyone if they dont like me as i am then too bad ! i dont care

Agreed about the dress thing.

Although I live with my wife of 3 years way up in the boonies where you'd look silly in a pair of shoes.

My wife never dresses up and I like that. Other women tell her she "must dress sexy for farang" but we just laugh at that.

You are what you are no matter what you wear. I must stress we do shower often, sometimes together!!!

[sarahsbloke]

I have said the same as you in many posts; there are good and bad people from everywhere in the world! One needs to weed their garden, for the good plants to grow. If you associate with good people, then your life is usually better. It certainly doesn't matter how much money someone has, it has much more to do with them having a good heart and mind!

I always find the good people extraordinarily dull, especially in the bedroom, the bad people are much more fun!

Hum, to each his or her own. I find bad ones a bit scary, and not very loving... But I guess they can be fun for a "short time!" If that happens to be your thing. But I thought this thread was titled: "Marrying a Thai Woman." Or was it; "my one night stand with a wild thing?"

I married a very bad one, 3 weeks after meeting her, 9 months now and we both seem very happy with our arrangement.

She didn't speak English and we had a translator arrange the details of the contract (which is initially for 5 years).

She previously had little or no contact with white men.

Edited September 20, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Loz]

Marky,

Sounds like you have had a VERY interesting time of it. You've got a place on my list of TV Members that I'd like to have a propper chat with, as well as a greenie for a real "put that in your pipe and smoke it!" post!

[tropo]

It may surprise you to know that I have degrees in both Sociology and Anthropology. I also have done my share of field studies in the area of cultural anthropology......

I am telling you the truth and you don't believe it. That is certainly your prerogative.

It surprises me. You spend far too much time telling us how educated and experienced you are and no time at all giving us anything other than wild opinions and then telling us "it's the truth" and "believe me".

That's not the way an educated man with two degrees would try to convince anyone.

[tropo]

I married a very bad one, 3 weeks after meeting her, 9 months now and we both seem very happy with our arrangement.

She didn't speak English and we had a translator arrange the details of the contract (which is initially for 5 years).

She previously had little or no contact with white men.

Now I've heard it all. You married a girl who doesn't speak a word of English after 3 weeks.

You should have spent some time in Pattaya doing girls who "do white guys" to gain some experience first. At least they speak English.

[tropo]

I guess it depends on what you are used to but if you say that" THEY'RE ALL LOOKING LIKE STUNNERS " I would have to say get down to Specsavers !

IMMEDIATELY !!!

Maybe I am in the minority but overweight, often over the hill women with stretch marks and tattoos just doesn't do it for me. But then again I'm not a dedicated follower of fashion like yourself ..........

I reckon you need the specs as you have trouble with your reading.

I'm not a dedicated follower of fashion, my wife is.

Who are you to decide who is attractive and who is not? You are very narrow minded - tattoos can be extremely attractive to many. You're also implying that all women in Pattaya are overweight and over the hill with stretch marks and tattoos. Perhaps it's not specs you need. Perhaps a trip to Pattaya may be in order because your comment indicates you've never been there.

[sarahsbloke]

I married a very bad one, 3 weeks after meeting her, 9 months now and we both seem very happy with our arrangement.

She didn't speak English and we had a translator arrange the details of the contract (which is initially for 5 years).

She previously had little or no contact with white men.

Now I've heard it all. You married a girl who doesn't speak a word of English after 3 weeks.

You should have spent some time in Pattaya doing girls who "do white guys" to gain some experience first. At least they speak English.

But I can, read, write and speak some Thai (although not enough to be confident arranging contracts by myself)

I've actually entered into a very traditional Thai arranged marriage, still fairly common.

It will either work or it won't, same as all marriages across the world.

Edited September 20, 2010 by sarahsbloke