Changing/transfering Non Immigrant Visas

[greenwanderer108]

Apologies if this has been covered---I couldn't seem to find any thread relevant to my situation.

I'm 22 years old and an American citizen with (half) Thai ethnicity. (My Thai mother passed away 9 years ago) On my initial independent visit to Thailand back in 2002, I entered on a Non-O multiple one year, on the basis of having Thai ethnicity. As I applied at the Denver Consul, it was simple and instant.

After that first year, I decided that I wanted to pursue studies at a local International University and was able to transfer from Non O to Non Ed providing the Uni documents at Suan Plu with out much hassle beginning 2003.

My initial Non Ed was an extension of the O but changed to Ed for sixth months after which I went back to the states for a visit late 2003, applied for a new Non Ed three months back in Denver as I wanted to continue studies in Bangkok beginning 2004. That three month was ultimately extended for a year.

That year will be up coming up in September. The only way to renew it again is with the provided Uni documents. However, I have decided that I no longer want to study at this University, or atleast take a break from studies for a year and focus on other things in my life, though I would still like to continue my stay in Thailand--but certainly not as a tourist (I'm half Thai for crying out loud ).

My question is about transferring back to a Non O on ethnicity basis. As I mentioned, my mother is deceased but I still can prove directly from my birth certificate her Thai nationality among other things.

I understand the easy option is to go back to the states and just get the Non O multiple entry again. However, I also understand the immigration at Suan Plu can provide extensions/transfers providing the proper documents.

If it is feasible, I would prefer to transfer/extend my visa as Non-O locally as I'm not financially prepared to travel around the world so soon just for such a visa, when I can prove my Thai ethnicity. (The problem of acquiring Thai nationality is too much hassle as I've found being that I'm no longer valid for dual citizenship uner US law and gaining Thai ethnicity without my mother alive to prove would require many long lost marriage/name changing/birth/death certificates on top of DNA tests and required military service etc.)

What are my best options other than going back to the States or anywhere outside of Asia that will cost more than 10,000 baht for such ticket?

If I go directly to Suan Plu with my birth certificate, documents from my Thai family/couzins/history, will I be able to transfer/extend to a non-o? If so, what exactly will I need? What is the current fee? And, how long is possible? etc.

Or will I need to first go to a consular in Asia for a three month Non-O with such documents and then extend it at Suan Plu (with those same documents)?

I would prefer to do it locally and know it is possible from Non-o to Non-e but unsure about the other way around. Anyone who has ever recieved a Non-o transfer/extension at Suan Plu, can you please shed more light for me.

Appreciated much,

[lopburi3]

Can not answer directly as have not been there but believe immigration have a policy to issue one year extension of stay to anyone who can prove Thai nationality. So the question then becomes what proof is required and directly talking with Suan Phau is probably your best course of action if you do not want to pursue normal legal avenues.

I must say do not know what part of US law prevents you having dual nationality.

[greenwanderer108]

Can not answer directly as have not been there but believe immigration have a policy to issue one year extension of stay to anyone who can prove Thai nationality.  So the question then becomes what proof is required and directly talking with Suan Phau is probably your best course of action if you do not want to pursue normal legal avenues.

I must say do not know what part of US law prevents you having dual nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Us Law states that after one's 18th birthday, those born with dual nationality must choose one nationality, (doesn't refer to naturalized immigrants who acquire dual citizenship via migration, etc.) meaning I'd have to give up my American passport/citizenship. Anyhow, I never had dual citizenship. The point was if I apply for Thai nationality here, I can get around that US law but it's such a hassle for the Thai officials as far as proving nationality. Apparently it's much easier to get a Thai id card/passport from the Thai Embassy in D.C. or L.A. but they have the responsibility to report to US Government about it being that I'm over 18.

Granted, I could get all the original Tabien Bahns, birth/marriage/death certificates (so many name/surname changes between my mother's birth and my birth), then after a DNA test with couzins (For crying out loud!!) I wouldn't want to risk losing my American citizenship just to have to join the Thai military service (that impliments American military equipment, training, etc.) And then I'd hate to become a victim to The US migration buisness when I want to visit my father, sisters back in the states.

Yea, sounds like I got to hit up Suan Plu directly, I would just hate to waiste a trip to Suanplu for a simple inquiry on what they need for proof? You would think that a translated copy stamped by the US embassy which clearly states my mom is Thai nationality would be enough, so I don't have to go dig up 30, 40 year old documents out in the country that might not still exist---Thais aren't the best record keepers.

[lopburi3]

Believe you were misinformed about US law on citizenship.

Dual Nationality

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.

Edited July 13, 2005 by lopburi3

[samran]

Just to add to Lopburi’s post, the information he produced is from this US State Department site. It is unequivocal, dual citizenship is perfectly fine in the eyes of the US government, and you will find if you search this site, that there are many people with dual Thai and US nationality.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

As such, if you are able to prove your Thai ethnicity via your birth certificate, it will be easier for you in the first instance to contact the Thai embassy in DC for them to issue you a Thai passport. You will not then have to worry about visa issues for your stay in Thailand.

You should also remember that in the eyes of Thai law, as a child of a Thai parent, you have automatically been a Thai citizen since birth. As such, in the eyes of US law, you are not ‘applying’ for a foreign nationality with the ‘intention to give up US citizenship’. You have always been a dual Thai/US national whether you have known this or not. The fact that you have only travelled on a US passport up until this point does not change this fact.

And the fact that you are applying for a Thai passport simple means that you are applying for a Thai travel document which you are already entitled to. It doesn’t mean that you are applying for a ‘new’ nationality.

Edited July 13, 2005 by samran

[greenwanderer108]

Just to add to Lopburi’s post, the information he produced is from this US State Department site. It is unequivocal, dual citizenship is perfectly fine in the eyes of the US government, and you will find if you search this site, that there are many people with dual Thai and US nationality.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

As such, if you are able to prove your Thai ethnicity via your birth certificate, it will be easier for you in the first instance to contact the Thai embassy in DC for them to issue you a Thai passport. You will not then have to worry about visa issues for your stay in Thailand.

You should also remember that in the eyes of Thai law, as a child of a Thai parent, you have automatically been a Thai citizen since birth. As such, in the eyes of US law, you are not ‘applying’ for a foreign nationality with the ‘intention to give up US citizenship’. You have always been a dual Thai/US national whether you have known this or not. The fact that you have only travelled on a US passport up until this point does not change this fact.

And the fact that you are applying for a Thai passport simple means that you are applying for a Thai travel document which you are already entitled to. It doesn’t mean that you are applying for a ‘new’ nationality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your points make sense and are logical, however,

When I initially contacted the Thai embassy in D.C. when I was 18, they made it clear that because I was 18, the US law would not permit me to have both nationalities and I would have to choose. Therefore, I didn't pursue the situation anymore. Perhaps they were misinformed of US Laws/tolerance of Dual nationality. Maybe I should contact them again with specific references.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The officer misinformed you. Take your birth certificate to Suan Phlu it should be a breeze to alter visa category. Apply for a Thai passport at MFA Consular Affairs at Chaeng Wattana at some stage.

[TokyoT]

This is a very interesting thread for me. When we first found out we were going to have a baby I started looking into this. As I had also heard that US did not allow dual citizenship for those over 18.

I did quite a bit of looking thru the internet and found the information from the State department indicating what laopburi3 has stated. This was enough for me at this stage as my daughter still has almost over 17yrs before she will be 18. She has both US and Thai passports right now.

After review of the State department web site, and looking over the information in my passport, it looked to me to be kind of a catch-22 situation. As the State department information leads one to believe it is OK to have dual citizenship. But in the US passport there is a passage that states

“LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP. Under certain circumstances, you may lose your US citizenship by performing any of the following acts:…… (2) taking an oath or making a declaration to a foreign state; (3) serving in the armed forces of a foreign state……”

When green signs his new Thai passport would he not be “taking an oath or making a declaration to a foreign state”?

As when someone is under 18 the parents sign all the forms and so the person actually receiving the passport has not officially made a declaration to a foreign state. But once that person becomes of legal age and signs the foreign passport are they not making a declaration to a foreign state?

Or are these basic items outlined to allow the US to take citizenship from people who obtain citizenship to countries considered hostile to the US – like the Soviet Union during the cold war? As the statements contain all the necessary legal weasel words (under certain circumstances, may lose).

Also following the above statement in the US passport is a section related to dual nationality. So it appears to be allowed.

Also a question that may also be of importance to Mr. green – if he does obtain a Thai passport, and Thai citizenship does then become liable for Thai military service?

I have seen many post from laopburi3 and samran in regard to immigration related issues and you guys seem to be pretty much in the know.

[lopburi3]

Re-read this sentence:

In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

You must intend to renounce your US citizenship and so do in order to lose it.

[samran]

The officer misinformed you. Take your birth certificate to Suan Phlu it should be a breeze to alter visa category. Apply for a Thai passport at MFA Consular Affairs at Chaeng Wattana at some stage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the OP was born in the US, the embassy will still need to get his birth certificate issued by them before he can do much else like getting an ID card or house registration. He might as well get the passport issued through them too.

When green signs his new Thai passport would he not be “taking an oath or making a declaration to a foreign state”?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, re-read my last post. He is simply applying for a travel document to which is he already entitled to by virtue of birth. No oaths are taken, and he will not be making a declaration which involves anything that the US could justify as being cause for revoking his US citizenship. After all, when going to live in a foreign country, we often have to make various declarations to our host country to get visa’s etc.

Also a question that may also be of importance to Mr. green – if he does obtain a Thai passport, and Thai citizenship does then become liable for Thai military service?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes he will until he turns 30.

Edited July 14, 2005 by samran