New A-T-M Fee?

[JimGant]

So, you're saying they charge the card networks' 1% foreign currency fee and then take another .5% for themselves, meaning they're 1.5% off the IER??

JFC, actually it looks like they might now be taking an extra .8%, based on the latest transactions. The 1.5% was based on a running average, where earlier rates were cheaper.

Example: On 28 July, I charged 1743 in baht on my USAA MasterCard. My following statement broke this out as: $54.52, plus a "foreign transaction charge" of $.55, or, as advertised, 1% of the basic charge. 1743 divided by $54.52 equals 31.97 baht per dollar. The IER for 28 July was 32.255 (per X-rates). So, not even close to getting the IER -- in fact, only getting 99.2% of the approximate rate the CIRRUS network would be using - and offering to USAA. After adding in the $.55 charge, I'm paying a fee somewhere around 1.8% off the IER. As someone in a previous post said: SCREWDRIVER!

Now, to revisit this quote:

Keep in mind, your credit card [ATM/Debit card] company also has the freedom to charge you an unfavorable exchange rate, in addition to the foreign transaction fee.

Obviously, they do this to make money -- and to obscure what you're really being charged. And -- I'm no banker -- the one realistic way this appears to be done is, to pay the CIRRUS network at the best available exchange rate -- theirs -- meaning they pay them $54.04 plus $.54. Then charge you, the cardholder the $.48 plus $.01 "spread," all profit for your issuing bank, with possibly a back door in there for CIRRUS... (And, the same thing could be accomplished if USAA sent the full $54.52 + $.55 to CIRRUS, then received a kickback.)

It just doesn't make sense for USAA to gouge me for any other reason, just because they can, and because it's my money, not theirs, thus nothing lost. Unless....as a credit card account, and if a maintained a balance owed, that balance would be bigger (and earning higher interest) with crummy exchange rates..... No!! That would be totally rude.....

Anyway, that's the story of USAA MasterCard (and probably many other financial institutions). And I believe hml397, in another thread, saw the same thing with USAA. (I haven't used their ATM card in awhile, but it too showed more than the advertised 1% pass on charge -- somewhere around 1.45%.)

But, I still use their MC here in Thailand. Why? Well, as a percentage cost off the Telex rate -- the rate I get when I ACH money here -- it's 1.4%. And, as they rebate 1% off all charges, my cost is then .4% off the TT rate. When I ACH money ($10k), my cost is .25% off the TT rate, so, yes, it would be cheaper to charge things with my Bangkok Bank ATM/Debit card. Except, reading horror stories on this forum about getting one's bank account cleaned out -- then waiting forever to get only part of it restored -- I'd rather pay the extra .15% for the peace-of-mind.

JFC, do you use a credit card over here? Debit card? If so, presumably it's with one of the several institutions we've been discussing re ATMs. Any unique info (fees, etc) regarding credit or debit charging, in your experience?

[JimGant]

a friend has been suspended twice.

I wonder what the magic number is before the magic words: 'Adios, mo'fo.'

[jfchandler]

Jim, I use debit cards (rewards checking accounts) for daily small expenses like grocery shopping, and then U.S. credit cards (no foreign currency fee) for bigger ticket items like airplane tickets, health insurance, etc etc. in order to take advantage of their rewards/points provisions.

As I posted the other day, Capital One MMA and Schwab HYI Checking seem to be fine for debit card use, with no foreign currency fee, no ATM fees of their own, and their resulting exchange rates being almost identical to that day's IER. Schwab has the advantage of refunding other banks' ATM fees worldwide (including the Thai banks' 150 baht fee), unlimited transactions and a higher daily ATM withdrawal limit. Capital One's card is ATM only, a lower $500 daily limit and no ATM fee refunds, domestic or international, which is still OK if one uses AEON ATMs consistently.

For debit cards, those both have the advantage of being nationally available. Then there are other local or limited membership accounts like the Service Credit Union one we've previously discussed, but you have to meet their eligibility criteria and/or "live" in a certain state or area. Since there seem to be a lot of ex-military folks around these parts, that's the reason I posted previously on the Service Credit Union and their worldwide ATM refunds, since it would be open to perhaps a lot (though not all) people reading on ThaiVisa.

E*Trade, of course, would have been among the best debit cards list, right up until they started charging the 1% foreign currency fee last month. So I've scratched them off my list...

Regarding credit cards, it's been a while since I've done exchange rate calculations for them. But when I have in the past, Capital One and Schwab both were close to IER, both charge no foreign currency fee and both have no annual fee. Schwab's interest rate for carrying over purchases tends to be higher, whereas Capital One's rates tend to be lower. But Schwab, at least for existing cardholders, has the advantage of still offering a straight 2% cash back on all purchases credited monthly into the companion brokerage account. However, I believe they are NOT still offering the 2% card to new applications. Capital One's rewards program is OK, but not close to 2%.

Meanwhile, Pentagon FCU, which is open to anyone thru joining a military association, also lately has started offering a new Promise VISA credit card that has no foreign currency fee, no flat fee for balance transfers and no annual fee, a pretty low interest rate, but no rewards program.

If there are any better, generally available deals out there to be had, I don't know about them....

And, in case anyone missed it before, I'll repost the results of the foreign currency fees survey that was done involving major U.S. banks, which shows Schwab, Penfed and Cap One as being among the best deals....

JFC, do you use a credit card over here? Debit card? If so, presumably it's with one of the several institutions we've been discussing re ATMs. Any unique info (fees, etc) regarding credit or debit charging, in your experience?

[joealx]

You're right Jim, in that it's getting tougher at an especially bad time, with the $ value falling, and losing E*Trade from the no 1% VISA foreign currency fee club. However, all is not lost....

I do believe that Capital One's debit card, like their credit card, has no foreign currency fee. As an organization, Capital One has had a long track record of that across the board. So they should remain a good means of pulling cash. The only downside is, they don't reimburse any ATM fees, including the Thai 150 baht variety. So they'll work well with AEON ATMs, but not as good a deal with the others.

The Schwab debit card may be a better deal, but it's been a long time since I used one, so we'll have to verify it's status in present time. Schwab does reimburse Thai bank ATM fees, although as I recall they do at month's end, not immediately as E*Trade does... I don't remember them charging the 1% fee, but we'll need to check their net exchange rate to confirm that.

And then, and you might remember because I believe we posted back and forth about this lately, there's also the Service Credit Union -- open to active and retired military folks and their relatives -- that was advertising it's ServicePlus+ checking account that would refund all ATM and VISA 1% fees worldwide -- if your account met their qualifications, which involved doing a pension or payroll direct deposit, and a minimum balance of at least $1500.

Interestingly, by comparison, the account requirements for the E*Trade checking account, while different from SCU, are actually higher in terms of maintaining a minimum balance in order to avoid E*Trade's monthly account fee. Though E*Trade gives its account holders the choice of quite a few different means of avoiding their monthly fee and still enjoying their ATM refunds.

All of the above, E*Trade, Schwab, Capital One and SCU, are all nationally available accounts.. But then, it so happens, I have some other smaller, non-national accounts that also have the benefit of no 1% fee and ATM refunds, though I've never tested them against the Thai 150 baht fee, because I never had the need to before...

I'd be interested to hear from other members if they're aware of any other national or smaller local accounts that also have the benefit of charging no foreign currency exchange fees???? You have to be careful in assessing that, however, in that while many banks break out those fees as separate debits, some don't and just deduct the fees from your net proceeds, which might make one think they're not paying a fee when in fact they are. Calculating your net exchange rate is the best way to confirm that.

So, fortunately, as far as I'm concerned, my "worm" is doing just fine....

Schwab is great. With all the competition, the service should last a long time.I use Aeon ATMS so I don't take advantage of the situation, but I don't think Schwab cares! With the exchange rate now, the fee is almost $5.00.

The Visa fee is sometimes less on the credit card than on the debit card for purchases (not ATMS)

I was thinking that UK people could open ($10000) a Schwab One International Broker Account, buy (sometimes free-ETFS)1 share of stock every quarter to keep the account active, and get a debit card.

One problem has evolved over the past year though, the ATM is blocked every 3 to 6 weeks. a phone call will fix that. Also International accounts get a toll-free number!

Edited September 4, 2010 by joealx

[jfchandler]

Indeed, Schwab has a special division for international customers, last I recall, with one of their offices in Phoenix, Ariz...

Here's a general link to the requirements for opening a Schwab One International Individual Account, $25,000 min. required to open.

They also have a special web site and info for UK residents.... $10,000 min. required to open.

These international accounts are not set up as banking, which is strictly a U.S. deal...

But they are brokerage accounts with the following features, according to the Schwab International web site:

Schwab Account Features

Investment choice—Take advantage of a wide selection of US Dollar-denominated stocks, options, bonds, ETFs, and offshore mutual funds.

One Low Commission Price—Trade stocks online for a flat $8.95 commission per trade.¹

Multi-channel service—Access your account information and execute trades online via Schwab-global.com. Or call one of our Investment Specialists for personal assistance and consultation.

Cash management—Manage the cash in your brokerage account with unlimited check writing up to your available account balance and a no-fee Visa® debit card. Earn interest paid daily on your uninvested cash balances¹.

Move money—Via international wire transfer or Schwab’s Foreign Currency Wire Transfer Service featuring competitive exchange rates with no transaction fees and deposits in a variety of major currencies (don't know how Thai baht figures into that???)

Choice of monthly statements—View your monthly account statement online or receive it in the mail.

I don't see any mention about refunding other banks' ATM fees, however.

[jfchandler]

Jim, I ran your numbers for the MC credit card transaction and came up with the same 1.8% off IER exchange rate...

But as to what you say below, you could of course use a U.S. ATM/debit card, avoid the 1% card network fee, and still have the advantage of U.S. consumer protection laws relating to fraudulent debit card activity.

Earlier this year, I had my wallet stolen on BTS, and within one hour, the thieves rang up more than $1,000 in purchases on one of the stolen cards. Of course, I called and reported the theft immediately to the card provider since I found I was missing my wallet when I tried to exit BTS....

In the end, after about a week of sending a copy of the Thai police report and filling out some bank forms, I got the entire amount credited back to my checking account without too much grief...although it was a pretty anxious week...

Had it been BKK Bank or SCB or the line, I don't even want to think what the result would have been.

But, I still use their MC here in Thailand. Why? Well, as a percentage cost off the Telex rate -- the rate I get when I ACH money here -- it's 1.4%. And, as they rebate 1% off all charges, my cost is then .4% off the TT rate. When I ACH money ($10k), my cost is .25% off the TT rate, so, yes, it would be cheaper to charge things with my Bangkok Bank ATM/Debit card. Except, reading horror stories on this forum about getting one's bank account cleaned out -- then waiting forever to get only part of it restored -- I'd rather pay the extra .15% for the peace-of-mind.

[jfchandler]

Jim, since you were asking about credit cards....

The last time I used a Cap One credit card in Thailand was June 16...

On that day, the BOT weighted average IER was 32.40.

The two credit card transactions I had that day posted at 32.375 and 32.388, even though they were just a short while apart... Not too shabby! . Of course, one line item charge, no fees, no extras.

One of the nice things about Cap One is they include the dollar amount and the exchange rate applied right as part of your statement line item....Makes it easy to monitor and keep track...

See below....

[cardholder]

a friend has been suspended twice.

I wonder what the magic number is before the magic words: 'Adios, mo'fo.'

It will NEVER happen Jim. The banks are not joined up and they will not be keeping a log. They are generally happy that someone has triggered their 'enhanced level of security' so it justifies their systems and proves that terrorists cannot ship money overseas for armaments !

Can you imagine HSBC saying "we have a global internet service - oh, but you MUST not use it overseas to make payments. Look at your accounts by all means, but you can't make payments". ?

I don't think so.

Maybe gangsters and 'mo fo's' only belong in the US banking system

[citizen33]

I'm thinking of using the Halifax route to make payments to my Thai bank account (TMB), but haven't tried this yet. Naturally one needs to transfer in sterling to maximise the gain. Can Cardholder please say whether this easily done on the online form and if there are any tricky boxes to complete?

[cardholder]

I'm thinking of using the Halifax route to make payments to my Thai bank account (TMB), but haven't tried this yet. Naturally one needs to transfer in sterling to maximise the gain. Can Cardholder please say whether this easily done on the online form and if there are any tricky boxes to complete?

Hi citizen 33,

It is a piece of cake.

Quite a user-friendly sysytem, you first create a template for your TMB account . Each time you wish to make a transfer you simply enter the Sterling amount (there is an option to send Baht and they also quote a rate for the day - obviously, as you identified, we don't use that we send Sterling).

Login with User Name and Password.

Answer one further security question from about 5 questions you previously selected.

You are taken to your accounts page.

From your bank account you have a 'take me to' drop down box. Go to International Payments.

You are taken to your template and you have a 'what would you like to do' drop down menu.

Here you choose 'make a payment'

You insert the Sterling amount and choose a 'reason for transfer' from a drop down menu. Personal Funds Transfer covers it.

Clicking 'next' takes you to a confirmation screen - and that is all there is to it. .

I will just repeat the minor health warning:-

the small print states that the online payments system is only intended for UK use and you MUST NOT use the transfer facility if overseas. The reality of this means that in over 12 months I have been 'suspended' once - a friend has been suspended twice. A quick phone call (preferably using CAT card cheap rates:)) to the UK to explain that you are visiting Thailand and need to transfer funds to buy some goods resolves matters. A minor potential inconvenience that is out-weighed by the significant benefits.

[prakhonchai nick]

Mr Cardholder.

The costs you quote are not totally correct -even in your case.

1) Not everyone is able to credit their Halifax account with a minimum £1000 a month and they will pay a £9.50 fee to transfer.

2) Upon arrival of the funds in a Thai Bank, a commission is charged. I use K Bank. I believe their charges are 0.25% of the amount in Thai (200bt minimum and 500bt maximum) +0.1% on the total. Add to that a 20bt charge for having the money transferred from HO Bangkok to your local branch,, and the fees can add up -especially for relatively small amounts.

If one happens to have an AEON ATM nearby, then I think this is still the most economical at present.

[cardholder]

If one happens to have an AEON ATM nearby, then I think this is still the most economical at present.

Which, in your case, I imagine would involve fuel + vehicle wear and tear to Buriram.

That, of course, excludes any "extras" you may purchase whilst you are there.

[prakhonchai nick]

If one happens to have an AEON ATM nearby, then I think this is still the most economical at present.

Which, in your case, I imagine would involve fuel + vehicle wear and tear to Buriram.

That, of course, excludes any "extras" you may purchase whilst you are there.

I did say "nearby" Cardholder!

Buriram I do not consider to be nearby in my case. The very last time I did try and use the AEON ATM in Buriram (more than 1 year ago) both ATM's would not dispense cash.

The cheapest way is to use Halifax and to transfer money for a group of friends at one and the same time -all sharing costs.

[cardholder]

If one happens to have an AEON ATM nearby, then I think this is still the most economical at present.

Which, in your case, I imagine would involve fuel + vehicle wear and tear to Buriram.

That, of course, excludes any "extras" you may purchase whilst you are there.

I did say "nearby" Cardholder!

Buriram I do not consider to be nearby in my case. The very last time I did try and use the AEON ATM in Buriram (more than 1 year ago) both ATM's would not dispense cash.

The cheapest way is to use Halifax and to transfer money for a group of friends at one and the same time -all sharing costs.

I am very happy to be that account holder - and, indeed, "Cardholder" .

Seriously, if there are a group of people in the same community it does make sense to combine such monthly transactions - IF you trust the person holding the purse strings.

Edited September 6, 2010 by cardholder

[prakhonchai nick]

If one happens to have an AEON ATM nearby, then I think this is still the most economical at present.

Which, in your case, I imagine would involve fuel + vehicle wear and tear to Buriram.

That, of course, excludes any "extras" you may purchase whilst you are there.

I did say "nearby" Cardholder!

Buriram I do not consider to be nearby in my case. The very last time I did try and use the AEON ATM in Buriram (more than 1 year ago) both ATM's would not dispense cash.

The cheapest way is to use Halifax and to transfer money for a group of friends at one and the same time -all sharing costs.

I am very happy to be that account holder - and, indeed, "Cardholder" .

Seriously, if there are a group of people in the same community it does make sense to combine such monthly transactions - IF you trust the person holding the purse strings.

[jfchandler]

I'd be very interested to see from the Brits here a detailed, accurate comparison of two things:

--the costs and rates for the best/cheapest deal on transferring money from the Uk to Thailand online

vs.

--the costs and rates for the best/cheapest deal pulling UK money in Thailand with the best UK debit/bank card...presumably with either an AEON ATM or a UK bank that reimburses ATM fees, if there are any.

I'd be very interested for someone to show everyone which of the two offers the most economical approach...so long as ALL the fees are covered at both ends, and the accurate exchange rates used.

We Americans have pretty well sorted that out from our end... the best debit cards win, though certainly some high fee debit cards are going to be more costly than wire transfers.

How about from the UK?