"สมัยนี้"

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

From Lexitron:

เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยนี้

How is the phrase "สมัยนี้" being used in his context. Is it:

A. "Teenagers today often imitate the behaviors of music celebrities," or,

B. "Teenagers often imitate the behaviors of current music celebrities." or, even,

C. "Teenagers often imitate the behaviors of current pop music stars."

Or, is the sentence ambiguous?

If the answer is "A", would the sentence be better stated as:

"สมัยนี้เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง"

Thanks.

[kokesaat]

A. "Teenagers today often imitate the behaviors of music celebrities," or,

This doesn't fit as it doesn't take into account สมัยน unless you're trying to apply it to the teenangers rather than the celebrities.

B. "Teenagers often imitate the behaviors of current music celebrities." or, even,

This works best for me.

C. "Teenagers often imitate the behaviors of current pop music stars."

I think you could assume the 'pop' in the sentence....but who knows? Maybe they're imitating reggae stars??

Or, is the sentence ambiguous?

If the answer is "A", would the sentence be better stated as:

"สมัยนี้เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง"

I think this changes the nature of the sentence: " Modern day teenagers often imitate the behaviors of musicians." (Jimi Hendrix, Elvis, Janis Joplin come to mind....and I don't think that's what the original sentence intended).

Sentence B not only seems to fit in translation, but also in practice. I'd probably use 'modern-day' in place of current.

[tgeezer]

สมัย is a noun tagged on at the end, it means period of time. เวลา คราว. as everyone knows.

Considering the source you may have to assume it an adjective but I wouldn't, I would just say 'currently' 'nowadays' to start the sentence.

Edited August 29, 2010 by tgeezer

[SoftWater]

I think A is the correct interpretation, but like you I would head the sentence with สมัยนี้ if I were to write it myself because I think it modifies the whole clause, not either teenagers of musicians.

e.g., "These days, teenagers often imitate the behaviour of pop stars."

The reason I don't buy B is because I don't believe you can use สมัยนี้ as an adjective to modify a noun like that.

Surely as a modifier of a noun it would have to be ดารานักร้องร่วมสัมย or something equivalent?

Edited August 29, 2010 by SoftWater

[DavidHouston]

I think A is the correct interpretation, but like you I would head the sentence with สมัยนี้ if I were to write it myself because I think it modifies the whole clause, not either teenagers of musicians.

e.g., "These days, teenagers often imitate the behaviour of pop stars."

The reason I don't buy B is because I don't believe you can use สมัยนี้ as an adjective to modify a noun like that.

Surely as a modifier of a noun it would have to be ดารานักร้องร่วมสัมย or something equivalent?

Softwater,

What if the sentence ended "นักร้องสมัยใหม่"? Would this latter term constitute an adjective?

Lexitron: สมัยใหม่ [ADJ] modern; up-to-date; new-style; new-fashioned; modern-day; newfangled

Does placement of a Thai word in a sentence have implications? Is there a default notion that says, "absent evidence to the contrary, an adjective or adverb modified the appropriate word with the greatest proximity"?

Thanks.

[SoftWater]

EDIT: Well, according to Lexitron yes: Lexitron: สมัยใหม่ [ADJ]

I would understand that as 'the latest pop stars' (i.e, , more immediate than just the broader word 'contemporary', which can cover a whole generation), but I can't say I'm confident that such an interpretation is correct. It's just my interpretation.

In English grammar, we do have a rule of proximity for relative clauses (= adjective clauses), which is that they modify the nearest noun. However, that rule is

i. English! and

ii. has exceptions

I offered my previous post for consideration, rather than as an authoritative answer.

Edited August 29, 2010 by SoftWater

[tgeezer]

Teenagers and popstars in the same sentence are contemperaneaous anyway, why on earth would you want to put an era on one of them and not the other? If สมัยนี้ สมัยใหม were not there the sentence still makes sense, it would make more sense to say 'in the past'. Teenagers are influenced by popstars of the past.

Lexitron is not very good at putting English into Thai, probably because it is not written by someone who understands English very well.

As to generations SW doesn't วัย mean generation? Also Thai does have a rule that the adjective is proximate to the noun, but it is only a rule.

English often says too much and Thai too little, there must be a happy medium.

Edited August 29, 2010 by tgeezer

[yoot]

The term "ดารานักร้อง" refers to actors, actresses, singers and musicians, so, can we use the term "superstars" as a translation for this term?

Let's see the term "สมัยนี้" in these three examples;

เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยนี้

- Teenagers often imitate the behaviors of current superstars.

เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้มักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง

- Teenagers nowadays often imitate the behaviors of superstars. (After googling around, I found the term "teenagers nowadays" is used widely as a noun phrase.)

สมัยนี้เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง

- Nowadays, teenagers often imitate the behaviors of superstars.

What do you think?

[DavidHouston]

English often says too much and Thai too little, there must be a happy medium.

When you say "English", do you mean Charles Dickens or Ernest Hemingway?

[DavidHouston]

คุณยุทธ์,

Thank you. That was very helpful.

[Tinkelbell]

- Nowadays, teenagers often imitate the behaviors of superstars

.................................................................................................

Hen-dua-ka, khun YOOT. ( absolutely agree, Mr. YOOT)

Chai-kum 'Nowadays' sa-murh ( Always using this expression ' Nowadays').

[SoftWater]

Now I'm confused. If I understood him correctly, Yoot seemed to confirm that David's Sentence B was the correct translation of สมัยนี้ in the Lexitron sample, but above Tinkelbell suggests A even though she says she agrees with Yoot.

ฝรั่งงง

Edited August 30, 2010 by SoftWater

[anchan42]

Teenagers and popstars in the same sentence are contemperaneaous anyway, why on earth would you want to put an era on one of them and not the other? If สมัยนี้ สมัยใหม were not there the sentence still makes sense, it would make more sense to say 'in the past'. Teenagers are influenced by popstars of the past.

Lexitron is not very good at putting English into Thai, probably because it is not written by someone who understands English very well.

As to generations SW doesn't วัย mean generation? Also Thai does have a rule that the adjective is proximate to the noun, but it is only a rule.

English often says too much and Thai too little, there must be a happy medium.

That probably because เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยนี้ sounds weird. It is grammatically ok but weird because สมัยนี้ is added for no obvious reason. It would be ok to say เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยนี้แต่ไม่ชอบพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยก่อน Now the reason the add "สมัยนี้" in is obvious.

เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้มักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง in this sentence we have "เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้" teenager of the present era as oppose to teenager of the previous era "เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยก่อน" or teenager of the next era "เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยต่อไป"

สมัยนี้ here is actually an adjective telling us more about เด็กวัยรุ่น

สมัยนี้เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง "สมัยนี้" is used to introduce a topic or scope that we want to talks about. เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้ is a noun phase and สมัยนี้เด็กวัยรุ่น is not. In normal speech we would say สมัยนี้ *pause* เด็กวัยรุ่นมักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้อง. It is unfortunate that comma has very little use in Thai.

You can say เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้มักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยก่อน

[tgeezer]

English often says too much and Thai too little, there must be a happy medium.

When you say "English", do you mean Charles Dickens or Ernest Hemingway?

My wiring seems different from most posters; I am not so much interested in making subtle meaning from Thai.

If the Thai says specifically one or the other of these; Nowadays teenagers etc. these days teenagers etc. today's teenagers etc. teenagers today etc. today's stars, stars these days, stars nowadays, let Yoot tell us which one it is.

I suspect that สมัยนี้ is a clause of time, even if it were an adjective following stars it must refer to stars who influence the teenagers, it can't be yesterday's teenagers or tomorrow's teenagers, ergo I think it refers to the whole and for comprehension belongs at the front, certainly in English probably in Thai also.

Nowadays, teenagers are etc. Now let EH or CD or any other literary genious jazz it up.

Oh I see, the previous post supports this view.

Edited August 30, 2010 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

You can say เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้มักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยก่อน

Just a note on English usage of Nowadays, it is generally used to refer to these days as 'new fangled' and comes with an implied 'tut tut' especially if teenagers are involved, could the Thai have this connotation?

[anchan42]

You can say เด็กวัยรุ่นสมัยนี้มักจะเอาอย่างพฤติกรรมของดารานักร้องสมัยก่อน

Just a note on English usage of Nowadays, it is generally used to refer to these days as 'new fangled' and comes with an implied 'tut tut' especially if teenagers are involved, could the Thai have this connotation?

Nostalgia for the good old days is probably more prevalent in Thailand than in any English speaking country. So yes สมัยนี้ often have the same connotation.

Edited August 30, 2010 by anchan42