"ฤกษ์ยาม"

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

I need some assistance in understanding another Lexitron sentence:

"รัฐบาลประกาศให้เลิกใช้ฤกษ์ยามแม้กระนั้นก็มีการแอบทำนายทายทักดวงชะตาของบ้านเมืองกันอยู่"

My guess is:

"The government announced [that government officials] shouldcease waiting for auspicious times [to schedule events] even though [manypeople] continue surreptitiously to use fortune telling to predict the fate ofthe nation. "

1. I am not clear on the meaning of the noun phrase "ฤกษ์ยาม"; I think it means "auspicious occasions" and in this case it is referring of the practice of going to a fortune teller or Buddhist monk or Brahman priest to find the best day to stage an event based on astrological principles.

2. The last part of the sentence seems out of place with the first part. "ดวงชะตาของบ้านเมือง" seems to refer to a broader use of astrology than seeking a fortuitous time and date for a public event. I have assumed that "ใช้ฤกษ์ยาม" refers to public events (i.e., "government officials"); am I reading this sentence too narrowly?

What do you think? Thanks.

[mikenyork]

รัฐบาลประกาศให้เลิกใช้ฤกษ์ยามแม้กระนั้นก็มีการแอบทำนายทายทักดวงชะตาของบ้านเมืองกันอยู่

ฦกษ์ยาม I would render "occasion". ยาม is, I think, referring to the four-hour time divisions. ปฐมยาม for example

I would render the sentence "Even though the government has announced that the use of auspicious times (for the commencement of important events) is to be discontinued, fortune telling to predict the fate of the country is still (commonly) used."

I can't get the implication of "many" out of this. But I do have a problem with ทักทาย I don't find it in the dictionary as a compound word. ทาย is foretell and therefore simply repetitive of ทำนาย and ทายทก is to greet, not relevant here.

What do you think?

[DavidHouston]

Mike,

From Lexitron:

ทำนายทายทัก [V] foretell; predict; prophesy

Syn. ทาย, บอกล่วงหน้า, คาดการณ์ล่วงหน้า, พยากรณ์, คาดการณ์

[kriswillems]

The government announced that it should cease waiting for auspicious times [to schedule events] HOWEVER [it] continues surreptitiously to use fortune telling to predict the fate of the nation.

แม้กระนั้น means however, or yet

[DavidHouston]

The government announced that it should cease waiting for auspicious times [to schedule events] HOWEVER [it] continues surreptitiously to use fortune telling to predict the fate of the nation.

แม้กระนั้น means however, or yet

Thank you Kris. I think that the definition of แม้กระนั้น as "however, or yet", on the one hand, or "nevertheless; notwithstanding" (Lexitron), or "despite that, even so" (Donmern-Sathienpong) are fairly similar: all these English renderings put the second clause contra-opposed to the first clause.

What you did interesting, however, was to change the assumed subjects of both clauses from what I had conceived them to be. And, I can't tell whether we can determine the subject from within the four corners of the example.

I had assumed that the government decree was being applied to what it, the government was doing, in contrast to what people in general were doing; you assumed that both subjects of the decree were the government itself and thus that the government was being hypocritical.

I like yours better because it helps clarify the meaning of the final portion "มีการแอบทำนายทายทักดวงชะตาของบ้านเมืองกันอยู่": only the government would be concerned about the fate of the nation as a whole.

Thank you so much for that interpretation.

[kriswillems]

It was the word แอบ that made me think the government was the subject of the second sentence. Normal people don't have to "hide" about going to see fortune tellers, but government would need to hide it (because they had announced that they wouldn't do this kind of strange thing anymore).

I am not 100% sure my interpretation is correct. If it would be correct I would expect ยังมี rather than ก็มี

[mikenyork]

I agree that "it", i.e., the government itself is the subject of the second clause. I don't think there's any significant difference between ยังมี and ก็มี.

[DavidHouston]

It was the word แอบ that made me think the government was the subject of the second sentence. Normal people don't have to "hide" about going to see fortune tellers, but government would need to hide it (because they had announced that they wouldn't do this kind of strange thing anymore).

I am not 100% sure my interpretation is correct. If it would be correct I would expect ยังมี rather than ก็มี

I thought that the sentence referred to, Pibul Songkram, who prohibited lots of antiquated practices among Thais. But I still think that yours is a better interpretation.

(Thanks, Mike, for your correction.)

Edited August 31, 2010 by DavidHouston

[Rikker]

David's question seems to have been dealt with thoroughly. I'll add just a passing note on ทำนายทายทัก -- it's one of the countless "rhyming expressions" used for euphony in Thai, typically a four-syllable phrase in which syllables 2 and 3 rhyme. The additional words usually relate semantically to the core phrase, but the meaning of the overall phrase is usually the same as the core phrase.

(As for semantic connection, ทาย is another form of ทำนาย, and one meaning of ทัก is to warn of danger. For example, there's a Thai superstition that when a house lizard (จิ้งจก) croaks at you it foretells your future. This is called จิ้งจกทัก. Depending on who you ask, whether your luck will be good or bad depends on either the time of day or the direction from which the sound comes.)

For fun, here's a brief

in Thai about จิ้งจกทัก and a music video about how a lizard can kill your relationship