Farang Pays It All?

[Krit]

Reading Thailand related guides and discussions, something seems to pop up very frequently: money.

What I have read suggests that, for example, when people eat out, the wealthiest person is supposed to pay for everyone. Further, it is automatically assumed that the farang is this person.

Some texts mention "walking ATMs" and such.

Now, I understand that money has an important role in certain kind of relationships. And frankly, I'm not interested in those.

Then again, it is said that having the "rich farang" pay were actually more of a cultural thing in Thailand. So, is money always a factor?

When I'm moving to Thailand, I hope to make some thai friends there. However, I have some kind of a monthly budget... Will they see me as cheap and mingy, if I don't pay for everything? Perhaps I have failed miserably as farang if I'm not swimming in money?

Please tell me I'm mistaken.

[IvanLaw]

When going out with Wife’s Thai friends or family I normally paid

But after a while I just said, sorry I am short of money so cannot go.

Saves face all round with out giving offence.

9 times out of 10 they will offer to pay if they can.

Swings and roundabout, I pay they pay so it now works out about even.

Hope this helps,

Regards

Ivan

[ChrisP]

Well, all depends who you meet.... some Thai's will expect you to have more money than them, and therefore will expect you to pay a larger contribution.

There IS a real expectation too (in the Business world) but I'm not sure what that it right now... have to look it up.

ChrisP

[BambinA]

Will they see me as cheap and mingy, if I don't pay for everything? Perhaps I have failed miserably as farang if I'm not swimming in money?

Please tell me I'm mistaken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well , its up to the person u meet ..but ..obviously in the world there are plenty selfish people who try to take a chance and take advantage from others..

anyhow, its fair enough to do as"american share" and you can find in TH also..

by the way , here ..culture , senoir always please younger people ,..but when i date..i prefer so-called american share...example ok i paid for movie , he paid for dinner ..etc

Bambi

[Brew]

easy: who invites has to pay

[ProThaiExpat]

The OP does use terms that have been applied in relationship threads and casual friend threads.

Since the replies so far have interpreted the OP to meannon-relationship or casual/friendship type meetings, I agree will all of them and feel that the more westernized Thailand becomes, the more western decorum will control.

Generalities are dangerous as even within the casual meeting format you have neighbor to neighbor, businessman to business man, custormer to vendor, bar acquantance to bar acquantance, teacher to collegue, etc. All with different rules.

If the Thai is westernized or western educated he or she will act differently than a Thai public servant, policman etc.

My take on it, as with tipping, is that it is up to you to find your comfort zone and not worry so much what other people think, including Thais.

I have found that "I have no money or I only have little money" goes a long way in getting Thais to abandon the "rich falang" concept. It may be a temporary condition, ie. cash supply low, or it might reflect long term financial status, who care, when it works to make you comfortable in having the Thai share in the expense. I think they worry a lot less about it than we do.

[RamdomChances]

easy: who invites has to pay

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats actually a very good guideline.

[Ijustwannateach]

Pretty much all of the non-scene-related Thais I know are embarrassed to let someone else pay too much. Many of them will deliberately make sure to pay for something with you to keep things balanced; this may be a less expensive thing (because they are often making much less money than you). For example, a university student friend of mine will pay for our meals on the street (which he can afford) while I will pay for the movie and popcorn.

I try equally not to be a mooch with the richer Thais that I know- I make sure to take turns paying for dinner with a friend of mine who's a company exec.

Money's not absolutely necessary for a social life. I've had groups of Thai friends come over with nothing more than a few drinks in the fridge; they brought the snacks.

"Steven"

[Sansai Sam]

Being as this question is posted in "GAYS IN THAILAND" I think it needs to be answered from a gay in Thailand point of view and I am guessing that a number of those who so kindly responded are not. Should one be going out with a BB (yeah, yeah I know we aren't allowed to talk about those) then one is most definately expected to pay. If said BB decided to invite friends along for a bite then you are still expected to pay. If you don't want to pay or don't have the means then better you don't go.

Traditionally (maybe an old tradition that some are trying desperately to hold on to) the wealthiest and/or oldest person pays. This applies to everyday gatherings (not gay).

I don't mind paying as long as it is MY choice. If I am paying I choose the venue. If someone gets out of control and orders something I feel is excessive I have no problem saying NO.

Hope this helps.

/Post content edited

ChrisP

Edited July 19, 2005 by ChrisP

[kreon]

Being as this question is posted in "GAYS IN THAILAND" I think it needs to be answered from a gay in Thailand point of view and I am guessing that a number of those who so kindly responded are not. Should one be going out with a BB (yeah, yeah I know we aren't allowed to talk about those) then one is most definately expected to pay. If said BB decided to invite friends along for a bite then you are still expected to pay. If you don't want to pay or don't have the means then better you don't go.

Traditionally (maybe an old tradition that some are trying desperately to hold on to) the wealthiest and/or oldest person pays. This applies to everyday gatherings (not gay).

I don't mind paying as long as it is MY choice. If I am paying I choose the venue. If someone gets out of control and orders something I feel is excessive I have no problem saying NO.

Hope this helps.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

same..same with bg's too

Edited July 19, 2005 by ChrisP

[Krit]

Thank you all for your kind advice! I am trying to figure out how much money I would need to live in Thailand, and obviously it's a different amount if I pay for my own meals/drinks only or for a horde of hungry/thirsty people every time.

Here, I often pay on behalf of friends who have less money, although I'd rather not involve money in relationships at all, as it seems to always complicate them... I guess it's best to appear as poor as possible, that way you can find good friends and true love.

The OP does use terms that have been applied in relationship threads and casual friend threads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, well, I'm not too sure yet what kind of relationships I would be able to find there, if any...

[orchis]

It depends on the situation, the people and a lot on yourself.

Business

In business if I am a client the suppliers invite and pay.

In my work, when there's someone's birthday I am the boss and I pay, if it gets to be too frequent I put it on the company.

A good Thai friend who's gay and richer and almost my age, always invites and pays in Thailand and I reciprocate in Europe.

If I have a more social dinner with e.g older well off Chinese Thai I don't ever see a bill.

this is just from my own experience with its ups and downs over the last 10 years

Private

If it s clear I m richer and older I pay many a dinner, movie, etc because basically it's peanuts but I also chose the restaurant (can also control budget that way), the movie.

Concerning my boyfriends , always in an urban setting not in traditional rural life where I think traditions are more stringent.

The first three (ok, I ve been here a while)

were p.r.secretary in a five star hotel, thai airways purser and a Singaporean engineer and had their own money, so we chose activities together and shared all costs.

The next one, I met him on a beach, had no revenue, so I put him up in a room of his own (2000tb/month) send him back to school for 2years and paid that too

i didn't mind the money but this kind of relationship gets to be very inequal if you dont make clear rules. when demands grew,so my frustration and we put an end to it. I learned that since then he started working and good for him.

The last 8 months I had no BF so I just did 'trade' and off course I paid. But while I saw this as a enjoyable pass time it was also a business transaction; some people thought they could caim to be my BF. Tough luck.

Now I date someone, like three weeks. As he is younger and has less money I paid dinner, a movie, drinks once. And then i ll see how it evolves, I wouldn't mind sharing if someone becomes my longer time companion, but I wouldn't give budgets to do things outside a couple's life. Then you become the atm, because you let it happen. It's not that people with less money rob the money from you,you give it and that's a choice too. and yes most people are able to hold some kinda job in this land, the problem is if their employ is to shake your money tree.

It is ok to try to learn a contry's culture and try to adapt, but many Thai, lets say in the night life, use this to take advantage, so better not go native and make it clear from the start. On other gay forums esp. those specialised in Pattaya, the advise might be somewhat different.

Edited July 15, 2005 by orchis

[Krit]

One more thing, is it OK to ask someone how much they earn? In my country one wouldn't ask something like that, usually even colleagues don't know each other's salaries, but I think I read somewhere that Thais may ask such questions quite openly.

Knowing something about one's earnings would of course help to better understand what is reasonable to expect. If a western teacher is earning something like 35 000 THB/mo, I guess wages for the average (young) Thais are much, much lower.

When I was in Chiang Mai, I spent a couple of evenings with a nice Thai boy who was working as a waiter (yes, waiter, not a "waiter"). I paid for most of our expenses but in one bar I somehow indicated that I think it's his turn to pay, so he paid for all our drinks. Later, I've been thinking that it may actually have been quite a big hit for him, although he didn't say anything about it. If we, for argument's sake, presume that he really did like and respect me as much as he said, do you think that, "pressured" or "expected" to pay, he could simply have said it's too expensive for him, or could that have meant loss of face?

Edited July 15, 2005 by Krit

[Steve2UK]

One more thing, is it OK to ask someone how much they earn? In my country one wouldn't ask something like that, usually even colleagues don't know each other's salaries, but I think I read somewhere that Thais may ask such questions quite openly.

Knowing something about one's earnings would of course help to better understand what is reasonable to expect. If a western teacher is earning something like 35 000 THB/mo, I guess wages for the average (young) Thais are much, much lower.

When I was in Chiang Mai, I spent a couple of evenings with a nice Thai boy who was working as a waiter (yes, waiter, not a "waiter"). I paid for most of our expenses but in one bar I somehow indicated that I think it's his turn to pay, so he paid for all our drinks. Later, I've been thinking that it may actually have been quite a big hit for him, although he didn't say anything about it. If we, for argument's sake, presume that he really did like and respect me as much as he said, do you think that, "pressured" or "expected" to pay, he could simply have said it's too expensive for him, or could that have meant loss of face?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most Thai's seem to include the matter of earnings early on - it's part of establishing relative status - in a way that we're not used to in the west. It may not happen quite so much between a Thai and a farang, because the farang is usually deemed to have high(er) status from the start.

About splitting drinks with the waiter - I think you may now regret what you did after I tell you that he's probably on 5,000-7,000 baht a month; I know a waiter at the Sheraton Hotel who is only on 6,000 after many years working there and gets no tips. Sorry, but it's true.

As to the loss of face point - difficult to say without knowing the guy but I'd say the probability is high that he didn't want to admit that it was at least unusually expensive for him.

As a general rule, I think it's good to ask yourself whether what you do together (that involves paying) is something that he would normally do with other "ordinary" Thai's. If it isn't (e.g. smartish restaurant instead of food stall at the market), I think it's almost automatic/mandatory for the farang to pay for both. If he's a nice guy, he may well want to return the favour in his own way (i.e. at his own level) by paying for both of you at a food stall another time - which will probably only come to about 80 baht.

My take is that most Thai's are pretty straightforward about money and it needn't be a big deal that you have way more than he does...... it's just a fact of life. I get the impression that you're a sensitive guy (in a positive way) and you should be able to handle it. That said, you do have to control it and make sure that you decide the limits - which he will almost certainly accept.

Going back to an earlier point you made (about how much to factor in for the cost of maintaining your Thai boyfriend), I'm with those who don't think it's good to pay a guy to live with you...... i.e. it's way better if he has some kind of job. Against which, no way do I see it as appropriate to think in terms of splitting my household bills with him. He's welcome to benefit from living with me and I would also be happy to look at some way of giving him a bit extra (i.e. on top of his earnings) - on the basis that I should be able to share my good fortune with him. BTW, that's "fortune" as in luck - not as in financial assets .

[niceboy]

Going back to an earlier point you made (about how much to factor in for the cost of maintaining your Thai boyfriend), I'm with those who don't think it's good to pay a guy to live with you...... i.e. it's way better if he has some kind of job. Against which, no way do I see it as appropriate to think in terms of splitting my household bills with him. He's welcome to benefit from living with me and I would also be happy to look at some way of giving him a bit extra (i.e. on top of his earnings) - on the basis that I should be able to share my good fortune with him. BTW, that's "fortune" as in luck - not as in financial assets .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said, agree 100% with you on this. I had a relationship with a guy for 6 months. When we started to go out I told him he had to work as I was not a money tree, and also because he was young and I work full time here and was not going to support him. He did get a job. I told him I would rent a room for him and bump up his salary a little. After a couple of weeks he left his job. I again told him he had to get another one, or how was he going to live. He did, realising that I was not going to be a push over. Eventually we split up due to him keep leaving jobs for stupid reasons, hoping eventually to wear me down I guess.

You must set the rules, its your money.

[Scott]

I have a wide variety of friends from different social classes. I've found no particular rule that applies, but here are some generalizations:

1. If I ask them out they will usually expect me to pay--some won't order anything to eat or drink, but may "pick" at general food items.

2. Poorer and those of lower social status will expect me to pay, but the only time they will go out is if I ask. They don't ask.

3. A few friends pay about 50% of the time, no matter who asked who to go out (but they are not really poor--more in the 20-30,000 Baht area). They are usually careful to make sure it's not a really expensive meal/evening though.

4. A few friends will always pay for their own bill, or leave an appropriate amount of money toward their bill.

5. The poorer ones are more likely to show up at my home with food/beverages in hand to share. Frequently, it's quite a lot of food and they will leave the left overs for me. It's a nice gesture.

Just a note, I don't go out unless I am equipped to pay the whole bill. You never know when no one else is going to have any money or the evening gets too long for them to afford.

Other than those "in the scene", most Thai people are careful with money, but willing to pay at least their share. It also seems to depend on where you are going. Some of my friends seem happier to pay if they get to choose the venue, but I usually don't want to go where they want to go. Sorry, I don't want noodles on the street. In those cases, I often either pay or end up with the lion's share of the bill--no problem.

[ChrisP]

Krit..

Welcome to TVand thanks for the post.

I sent you a PM.

ChrisP

[slapdashkitty]

Well guy it really depends which end of the dating pool you are fishing in. After a year plus of living and dating in BKK I have to say it is a minefield.

It takes all kinds, and well if you are not careful you will get taken to the cleaners. If you have any doubt whatsoever of a guy's motives-

RUN! Leaving a big cartoon puff of smoke behind you!

Honestly would you date any guy at home if there was even a question of his being a gold digger?

But there are plenty of nice guys here...you will not meet them in Soi 2-4, keep those PYTs as weekend bar friends.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Amen to the above!!!

It's true that not ALL scene guys are worthless... but not worth the gamble....

And it's true that MOST non-scene guys can be ok... but remember they can disguise themselves... ... so don't let your guard down too soon.

Caution is the best advice when looking for someone serious- and if you're not looking for someone serious, then never mind, never mind, never mind.

"Steven"

[zarzuela]

I do not have the answer to this question, but in my personal experience farangs don't pay it all. I have been lucky that the two Thai boyfriends I have had, have paid for some of my meals or drinks when we go out. Perhaps the new generations are aware that 50/50 in relationships is the best way to go.

I would not, as a farang, foreigner or whatever I may be called, pay it all for my boyfriend and I would be shocked if he actually expects that from me.

I don't believe that this only applies to rich Thais. Perhaps they are more conscious that farangs don't want to pay for a relationship as this is usually mora associated with money boys. I don't know, jusy my thought.

[Pujun]

That cheap Thai guy using me for his business trip to Samui.

And I believe that he took some of my money from my safety box when we stayed in Samui. This guy probably a uptown money boy.

Unbelievable !! A Thai guy with good educated background, good income, has car and house, has a decent job, can still be a jerk .

I HAVE HIS PICTURE !!

Edited October 24, 2005 by Pujun

[Ijustwannateach]

Get over it!

[sierra01]

I have a female (librarian) friend in Chiang Mai, every time I go there she won’t let me pay for any meals whatsoever, it always leads to a light hearted argument. No matter how much I try and pay, even sneakily giving money to the waitress she always finds out and gives it back to me!

On the other hand a new, and now ex, g/f arranged for us and her family, 10 of them, to go out for a meal one evening, when the bill came I was nearly crushed in the mad scramble for the door.

I’ve been here 3 ½ years, and I’ve found that it doesn’t matter if the Thai friend/s/associates are rich or poor, some will share, in varying degrees according to income, some will pay without thinking about it and some EXPECT you to pay. I’m happy to pay for the less well off but if I think anyone is trying to take advantage then I disappoint them.

[noctiluca]

Well, I hope it is ok for a Thai to add here. I don't know about others, and I am sure it varies from one person to another, but for me, I am not comfortable to have someone pay it all for me all the time, although it could be tempting sometimes, considering my salary.

Even for a Thai, I sometimes get confused about this too, so it's not just a farang thing. (Perhaps, I am bit more modernized or westernized, huh?) What most of the people here mentioned are correct, but you have to remember this is just a generalization. It could be true to some people in some occasions. Usually most decent Thais would try to pick up the tap, or at least part of their shares. I know I would. If it is an upscale/expensive place, at least I will try to pay for my part or pay in proportion to my income. If I know it would be a highly expensive outing, I may opt not to go, just to save all the troubles, so I don't have to try to figure who to pick up or how much to share when later I will feel bad about it. Wouldn't it be fair enough? (I guess you could call me cheap. )

We, Thais, have dignity too, you know. (Some may call "face".) And I am sorry for those who get conned. I hate to hear stories farangs get ripped off by their Thai girl/boyfriends, or anybody for that matter.