Expresso Maker

[CMX]

I have never been able to find a consensus, regarding coffee in our town, about which type of coffee maker makes the best brew. I have tried a number of coffees here and find myself in a coffee heaven. For myself, I've decided upon brands, types, grinding, and storage.

HOWEVER, every time I get coffee at some coffee place, restaurant, bar, whatever, all over town, (excepting instant!) they grind in a dedicated machine (I can do that) and then they use an expresso machine (pressurized) to build my long "Americano" - adding hot water. It Is better than mine, no matter which bean I use in a drip style machine, or bodun either. Or so it seems to me.

Am I wrong? I think not. And I doubt that all of my experiments have always been using better beans.

Anyway, assuming I want only a smaller expresso machine, where might I find something less costly than those I've seen at Robinson (not on sale, so far)??

Edited September 4, 2010 by CMX

[lingnoi1977]

CMX, there is no consensus on coffee and nor should there be. It's wide open to subjective views and that's one of the many enjoyable things about coffee. Different roasts and grinds react differently when made in various ways. You are doing the right thing by experimenting and an espresso machine may well give you the desired result.

Make sure when you purchase the coffee you ask about the roasting and suitability for machine vs moka vs plunger etc. Good roasters will know what their beans suit and should be able to advise you accordingly. Grinding is important also. Do you have a decent one?

To the machine - I recommend you go to Hillkoff and check out their range. They should let you test a machine and grinder in their training room but I am not sure if they do this prior or after purchase. Expect to pay between 30-45k for a decent machine in my view. Much of that is import duties of course. Others may think differently. A seperate grinder is better than a built.

Good luck!

[CMX]

1977,

Thanks for information about the pressurized coffee makers. Taken from another thread, I had placed Hillkoff at the top of my shopping list, and it is good to have that confirmed. It would be strange if I don't get over there today.

As an oenophile and coffee nut (bean?), I'm familiar with the fuss. My grinder is a true grinder and adjusts for fineness. Problem is that I did not fetch my expresso machine, having mistakenly placed it lower on my priorities than shoes, clothes, laptop and other useless junk.

I take it that you say that in general, my preference for local restaurant coffee made by the expresso method is not a confirmation of a better machine, but of my own tastes - OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. That is, there is no consensus regarding coffee makers independent of other factors (except of course for the concentration)? I'd always wondered about acidity, assuming the same bean.

Edited September 4, 2010 by CMX

[lingnoi1977]

1977,

Thanks for information about the pressurized coffee makers. Taken from another thread, I had placed Hillkoff at the top of my shopping list, and it is good to have that confirmed. It would be strange if I don't get over there today.

As an oenophile and coffee nut (bean?), I'm familiar with the fuss. My grinder is a true grinder and adjusts for fineness. Problem is that I did not fetch my expresso machine, having mistakenly placed it lower on my priorities than shoes, clothes, laptop and other useless junk.

I take it that you say that in general, my preference for local restaurant coffee made by the expresso method is not a confirmation of a better machine, but of my own tastes - OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. That is, there is no consensus regarding coffee makers independent of other factors (except of course for the concentration)? I'd always wondered about acidity, assuming the same bean.

Yeah I know what you mean about priorities. Well, my machine shat iteslf back home so I did not have to bother. My local cafe makes what I would confidently call one of the best coffees around (called latte here) - Butter is Better. So, I settle for my fresh roasted (absolutely no compromise here), fresh ground (also no compromise) moka pot in the morning. Two of these keeps me happy until I get to the cafe and have a latte made by a trained barista.

As for acid profiles - it's a little complicated. Firstly, many of the Thai Arabica beans have a higher acid profile than other countries. They can have a "doughnut" effect showing lack of body. I usually buy blends because of this. Secondly, and this is the one that peeves me the most, many local coffee producers use Robusta beans to stretch the blend. Robusta is cheaper to grow, cultivate, process etc and it has a much higher acidity than Arabica (generally speaking). Then there is the drying process which can have an enormous effect on the eventual flavour.

Identical beans when processed can taste different according to the grind and the way it is made. Also, some machine users do not bother with filtered water. Chlorine and flouride aren't the best for coffee

Cheers.

[massein]

I love my coffee and enjoy 3 to 4 cups dailey, However I don't get this expresso thing

My wife uses the Duang Dee Hill Tribe classic blend, and it is great, She also uses a standred

drip brewer, and it great. I hate going to town and asking for a cup of coffee, which no one

understands. I guess its just a european think. BTY this coffee is ever bit as good as fogers

or maxwell house

[massein]

1977,

Thanks for information about the pressurized coffee makers. Taken from another thread, I had placed Hillkoff at the top of my shopping list, and it is good to have that confirmed. It would be strange if I don't get over there today.

As an oenophile and coffee nut (bean?), I'm familiar with the fuss. My grinder is a true grinder and adjusts for fineness. Problem is that I did not fetch my expresso machine, having mistakenly placed it lower on my priorities than shoes, clothes, laptop and other useless junk.

I take it that you say that in general, my preference for local restaurant coffee made by the expresso method is not a confirmation of a better machine, but of my own tastes - OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. That is, there is no consensus regarding coffee makers independent of other factors (except of course for the concentration)? I'd always wondered about acidity, assuming the same bean.

Yeah I know what you mean about priorities. Well, my machine shat iteslf back home so I did not have to bother. My local cafe makes what I would confidently call one of the best coffees around (called latte here) - Butter is Better. So, I settle for my fresh roasted (absolutely no compromise here), fresh ground (also no compromise) moka pot in the morning. Two of these keeps me happy until I get to the cafe and have a latte made by a trained barista.

As for acid profiles - it's a little complicated. Firstly, many of the Thai Arabica beans have a higher acid profile than other countries. They can have a "doughnut" effect showing lack of body. I usually buy blends because of this. Secondly, and this is the one that peeves me the most, many local coffee producers use Robusta beans to stretch the blend. Robusta is cheaper to grow, cultivate, process etc and it has a much higher acidity than Arabica (generally speaking). Then there is the drying process which can have an enormous effect on the eventual flavour.

Identical beans when processed can taste different according to the grind and the way it is made. Also, some machine users do not bother with filtered water. Chlorine and flouride aren't the best for coffee

Cheers.

I agree the coffee at the buter batter is ok but a little sharp, At least they don't intergate you as to what you want in your coffee

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Espresso machines are very expensive, especially the good ones at places like Hillkoff.

With the Euro coming down, I'm looking at Europe to buy. (Can't buy in the US due to voltage issues)

[lingnoi1977]

Espresso machines are very expensive, especially the good ones at places like Hillkoff.

With the Euro coming down, I'm looking at Europe to buy. (Can't buy in the US due to voltage issues)

I've considered the same but am a litle worried about the duty I will get slugged. Even with an FTA it seems customs are a law unto themselves.

[JXXXL]

Lingnoi definitely knows his stuff and I agree with everything he wrote.

There is always a debate within this group about which coffee is "better or best" and of course there are those who chime into any discussion of espresso saying their home brewed is cheaper and just as good. I don't know why people can't grasp the fact that the discussion isn't about what is better when people are talking about finding good espresso.

So, just to make it clear, espresso is a method of preparing coffee and produces a more concentrated drink that can be mixed with milk or water to dilute the strength and produce a variety of drinks. There are other methods of preparing coffee (e.g., stove top pots, presses, vacuum pots, drip machines) that also product fine coffee. Brewed coffee and espresso have different characteristics and flavors and if one is interested, they should sample different types till they find the one they like.

However, if one likes espresso, and wants to make it at home, then you have to find I right equipment and there are lots of choices. I recommend you go to cites like CoffeeGeek and do some research to find out what is best for your budget and complexity of preparation. There are many types of machines (e.g., superautomatic, automatic, manual, lever pull, HX, dual boiler, etc). Hillkoff has a lot of good kit, but if you are really into it, you can import equipment.

So, bring on the discussions about beans and roasts, but please folks, lets not debate whether espresso is better than brewed or vice versa.

[CMX]

"HOWEVER, every time I get coffee at some coffee place, restaurant, bar, whatever, all over town, (excepting instant!) they grind in a dedicated machine (I can do that) and then they use an expresso machine (pressurized) to build my long 'Americano' - adding hot water. It Is better than mine, no matter which bean I use in a drip style machine, or bodun either. Or so it seems to me.

Am I wrong?" ---------------- OP,

(before purchasing an expresso machine, probably in Chiang Mai - expensive, apparently)

"....lets not debate whether espresso is better than brewed or vice versa." - JXXXL

Well, that certainly decides this thread.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Espresso machines are very expensive, especially the good ones at places like Hillkoff.

With the Euro coming down, I'm looking at Europe to buy. (Can't buy in the US due to voltage issues)

I've considered the same but am a litle worried about the duty I will get slugged. Even with an FTA it seems customs are a law unto themselves.

Right, so I plan to just stick it in a suitcase and go through customs in Bangkok rather than Chiang Mai.

http://www.customs.go.th/Customs-Eng/HouseholdEffects/HouseholdEffects.jsp?menuNme=HouseHold

Edited September 4, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[lingnoi1977]

Espresso machines are very expensive, especially the good ones at places like Hillkoff.

With the Euro coming down, I'm looking at Europe to buy. (Can't buy in the US due to voltage issues)

I've considered the same but am a litle worried about the duty I will get slugged. Even with an FTA it seems customs are a law unto themselves.

Right, so I plan to just stick it in a suitcase and go through customs in Bangkok rather than Chiang Mai.

Yeah no joy up in the north.

Oh and make sure the machine looks used.

[jaideeguy]

I've gone thru a couple of espresso machines....a Fagor brand sold at robinson's and after a few months it started leaking pressure and the authorised service center here couldn't fix it after three tries........lessons learned,,,,,,don't buy Fagor and don't buy any appliance more complicated than a rice cooker here in LOS. Same thing happened with a Hitachi bread maker.

I now brew my fresh roasted and fresh ground [by a hand crank grinder] in a drip paper filter and bake my bread with a no knead method.

the less machines, the less problems!!!!.

On a side note, there is now fresh roasted [yesterday's roast] available at Locanda restaurant in Doi Saket. Lingnoi.....you're invited to try it, if you're not scared to venture out of the city for some real fresh coffee @ 300thb/kilo......or do you think you have to pay Starbuck's prices to get a good cupa coffee.......not!!!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yeah, I use this one:

Note that this is the 'Brikka' model, which includes a pressure valve so it builds up more pressure than a regular stove-top. Then at climax time the pressure thingy pops open, and coffee announces itself. This creates some crema-like froth on top as well, which is always a happy sight in the morning. (Like this:

)

The grind is super important with it.. I probably need to find a good grinder more urgently than an espresso machine.

Edited September 5, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[CMX]

Alas, Jaideeguy's warning arrived too late.

Working on the established theory that the best expresso coffee makers are made by workers' cooperatives when located in communities long known for their attempts to establish their unique identity within a nation-state, I selected a Fagor Expresso Coffee Maker, the CR-1000 model, as it makes up to four small cups.

On the other hand, I refused the idea that coffees may not be made by filter and expresso methods and compared by way of achieving a better result. Apart from the matter of flavor (and acidity, my particular point of curiosity), there was also one of cost – could one achieve an equally powerful cup of the same size using less of the stuff? If so, it might entirely defray the cost of the device (2800 baht; given the amount of coffee I drink, this might take a week or two). Of course, since I was aiming at an “Americano” result, I would have to add hot water, as is done in many places in Chiang Mai where I have had wonderful coffee. Measurement would require instruments and scientific attention. Happily, for this, I am so equipped.

For the experiments, I used the “Bold” bean from Duang Dee, only because it was at hand. There is a “tang” when drinking the drip-method drink that I do not like. Extraordinary as it might appear, I was hoping for a cuppa superior even to Maxwell House and Hills Brothers, nay, I say more, better than Folgers and even Chock-ful-of Nuts. I aspire to home-made coffee that is even better than that of Starbucks or Seattle's Best: Starbucks French Roast (don't laugh; it's good).

For coffee neophytes, let me mention that while the plastic surrounding the machine for shipping warns in fourteen languages that the bag is dangerous to children, there is a far more common catastrophe associated with such machines. I have used even cheaper devices, but many share the same trait. The carafe will break. Making coffee in the morning is therefore a challenge. In my haste, I forgot to ask at Robinson if they were available. Keeping a half dozen in close storage results in peace of mind.

I shall only mention preliminary results here, uncertain as they may be. Methodology may be explained in a later New Topic if there is a popular demand, but it will not be soon in coming in order to be precise. Finding blind tasters alone may take months. One is aware of the massage institute, but as for how many of our fellow coffee cognoscenti serve on staff....

RESULTS

Initial results were inconclusive and further testing must be done.

[lingnoi1977]

Yeah, I use this one:

Note that this is the 'Brikka' model, which includes a pressure valve so it builds up more pressure than a regular stove-top. Then at climax time the pressure thingy pops open, and coffee announces itself. This creates some crema-like froth on top as well, which is always a happy sight in the morning. (Like this:

)

The grind is super important with it.. I probably need to find a good grinder more urgently than an espresso machine.

KRUPS

GVX2

<A href="/All+Products/coffee-grinders/Products/GVX2/GVX2.htm" target=_top>

• <A href="/All+Products/coffee-grinders/Products/GVX2/GVX2.htm">Burr Milling System
• <A href="/All+Products/coffee-grinders/Products/GVX2/GVX2.htm">17-position fineness selector
• Quantity selector for 2 to 12 cups

Best I've had in its price range by a long shot. Approx 2990 baht at ground floor Central Airport Plaza. They occasionally have floor sales on the ground level and I assume they have a shop upstairs also.

[jaideeguy]

Yeah, I use this one:

Note that this is the 'Brikka' model, which includes a pressure valve so it builds up more pressure than a regular stove-top. Then at climax time the pressure thingy pops open, and coffee announces itself. This creates some crema-like froth on top as well, which is always a happy sight in the morning. (Like this:

)

The grind is super important with it.. I probably need to find a good grinder more urgently than an espresso machine.

KRUPS

GVX2

<A href="/All+Products/coffee-grinders/Products/GVX2/GVX2.htm" target=_top>

• <A href="/All+Products/coffee-grinders/Products/GVX2/GVX2.htm">Burr Milling System
• <A href="/All+Products/coffee-grinders/Products/GVX2/GVX2.htm">17-position fineness selector
• Quantity selector for 2 to 12 cups

Best I've had in its price range by a long shot. Approx 2990 baht at ground floor Central Airport Plaza. They occasionally have floor sales on the ground level and I assume they have a shop upstairs also.

My fool proof hand cranked grinder is actually a grain grinder and works on the same principal as a burr grinder.....2 metal wheels that can be adjusted to any grind you want and works when power is down, will outlast me, and best of all.......it was only 600thb @ makro.

My drip coffee maker 2 cup works every time and paper filters are cheap as paper and remove sediment that the mesh filters don't......thus a smooth tasting cup.

I've spent thousands of $/thb on all these fancy gadgets [they all break and no one can get parts, much less repair them here] to get the perfect cup, but have come to the conclusion that you really don't need to. I even had my stainless steel Italian stove top moca maker spring leaks in the base] fresh roasted coffee is the single most important thing to a good 'cup of joe' IMHO. 'Keep it Simple!!' is my moto now.

[jaideeguy]

Also have read that the downside to those stove top makers is that they work on high tempratures, but low pressure....so your precious coffee is almost boiled. The espresso machines work on a higher pressure principal, using a lower water temp and you get a much smoother taste at lower temps, FYI.

[JXXXL]

"HOWEVER, every time I get coffee at some coffee place, restaurant, bar, whatever, all over town, (excepting instant!) they grind in a dedicated machine (I can do that) and then they use an expresso machine (pressurized) to build my long 'Americano' - adding hot water. It Is better than mine, no matter which bean I use in a drip style machine, or bodun either. Or so it seems to me.

Am I wrong?" ---------------- OP,

(before purchasing an expresso machine, probably in Chiang Mai - expensive, apparently)

"....lets not debate whether espresso is better than brewed or vice versa." - JXXXL

Well, that certainly decides this thread.

I'm waiting with bated breath to read your conclusion as to which method is best.

[CMX]

JXXL

pax vobiscum

CMX

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Also have read that the downside to those stove top makers is that they work on high tempratures, but low pressure....so your precious coffee is almost boiled. The espresso machines work on a higher pressure principal, using a lower water temp and you get a much smoother taste at lower temps, FYI.

Actually, no. This may apply to larger sizes (6 cups, etc) where the whole thing is left on the gas with the heat on. But for the smaller models (and especially the Brikka pictured above) the main issue is actually that the coffee should actually be a little hotter. When adding milk especially then the milk requires heating, otherwise you're making ice coffee.

Temperature (like anything else with this thing) ALSO fluctuates based on grind. A very fine grind means it takes longer to build up enough pressure, meaning the coffee gets a bit hotter.

[lingnoi1977]

Also have read that the downside to those stove top makers is that they work on high tempratures, but low pressure....so your precious coffee is almost boiled. The espresso machines work on a higher pressure principal, using a lower water temp and you get a much smoother taste at lower temps, FYI.

Actually, no. This may apply to larger sizes (6 cups, etc) where the whole thing is left on the gas with the heat on. But for the smaller models (and especially the Brikka pictured above) the main issue is actually that the coffee should actually be a little hotter. When adding milk especially then the milk requires heating, otherwise you're making ice coffee.

Temperature (like anything else with this thing) ALSO fluctuates based on grind. A very fine grind means it takes longer to build up enough pressure, meaning the coffee gets a bit hotter.

I concur. Also, the stove top devices are best controlled by gas heat. My moka pot draws the coffee through the spout quite slowly. I would rather wait for a few more minutes than have it draw through too quickly.

Also, a note on drip machines. Unless you pay decent money and buy a temperature regulated drip machine you will always have that hint of burnt coffee.

[angiud]

In my restaurants I use SAECO machines, supplied by Boncafe (but not their coffee...)

The oldest had already over 30.000 coffee (software has a counter), without any mayor problem (cleaning, some o-ring, plug) but is an automatic double boiler w/grinder machine, quite expensive.

But I have another, semi-manual , using powder coffee with single boiler, around 8.000 baht I use already 5 years without problems (changed only a rubber gasket)

I cannot say other than good with SAECO

[WinnieTheKhwai]

In my restaurants I use SAECO machines, supplied by Boncafe (but not their coffee...)

The oldest had already over 30.000 coffee (software has a counter), without any mayor problem (cleaning, some o-ring, plug) but is an automatic double boiler w/grinder machine, quite expensive.

But I have another, semi-manual , using powder coffee with single boiler, around 8.000 baht I use already 5 years without problems (changed only a rubber gasket)

I cannot say other than good with SAECO

The 8000 baht machine, was that purchased in Thailand? (Where?) Seems exceptionally cheap for Thailand.

[angiud]

Yeah, I bought it in Boncafe showroom, but I'm afraid that model is out of production now.

But you can ask for a similar model or check also for the Krup brand (around 10.000 Baht), very good quality too.

[tigerbeer]

i happened to buy the Fargo CR1000 coffee machine and used Duang Dee and Lanna coffee. comes out really bitter even with as little ground coffee as possible. below the 2 cups marker for the ground coffee with 4 cups output of coffee brewed. are you supposed to compress the ground coffee in the steel cup thing? which i do as the saleslady told me to do that. The instruction manual says otherwise. or is one supposed to spend above 10k for a good machine?

Edited April 20, 2012 by tigerbeer

[harrry]

i happened to buy the Fargo CR1000 coffee machine and used Duang Dee and Lanna coffee. comes out really bitter even with as little ground coffee as possible. below the 2 cups marker for the ground coffee with 4 cups output of coffee brewed. are you supposed to compress the ground coffee in the steel cup thing? which i do as the saleslady told me to do that. The instruction manual says otherwise. or is one supposed to spend above 10k for a good machine?

4. MAKING COFFEE

Always use cold water to make coffee.

1. Take the lid off the water tank and fill it

up with the desired amount of water (2

cups minimum and 4 cups maximum).

Fit the lid correctly back onto the water

tank again.

2. Fit the filter into the filter holder (fig. 1).

Place the desired amount of ground

coffee for 2 or 4 cups in the filter

(observe the marks on the inside of the

filter). Clean any coffee residues from

the edge of the filter holder. Do not

compress the coffee or exceed the 4-

cup mark.

3. Fit the filter holder onto the coffee maker

in the direction of the arrows and turn it

to "OK" position (fig. 2).

4. Place the glass carafe on the drip grid

so that the hole in the centre of the lid is

directly underneath the coffee nozzle.

5. 5. Plug in the coffee maker and turn

the function selector to (fig. 3..

The appliance will take a few minutes to

reach the correct temperature.

6. When all the water has gone, turn the

function selector to "0". The pilot light

will switch off (fig. 3.a).

7. Unplug the appliance and then turn the

function selector to (fig. 3.c), so that

all the steam left in the tank is expelled.

8. Wait for approximately 2 minutes before

removing the filter holder from the

appliance. To remove the filter holder,

turn it in the opposite direction. Hold

I think you may be over extracting the coffee. When you put too much water through coffee it becomes bitter. Use the recommended amount of coffee for 4 cups and if necessary reduce the water even further. If needed add hot water only to the coffee if you like it weaker.

[uptheos]

Espresso machines are very expensive, especially the good ones at places like Hillkoff.

With the Euro coming down, I'm looking at Europe to buy. (Can't buy in the US due to voltage issues)

I've considered the same but am a litle worried about the duty I will get slugged. Even with an FTA it seems customs are a law unto themselves.

Right, so I plan to just stick it in a suitcase and go through customs in Bangkok rather than Chiang Mai.

http://www.customs.g...nuNme=HouseHold

Absolutely to go through Bangkok customs. They will assume you're just another guy heading for Pattaya. I've been stopped a few times at Chiang Mai.....they need to move their limbs now and then and I seem to get the guy who is ready for a stretch.

[ARISTIDE]

You mean around 9000 baht is expensive? I got a DeLonghi for around nine grands.

Espresso machines are very expensive, especially the good ones at places like Hillkoff.

With the Euro coming down, I'm looking at Europe to buy. (Can't buy in the US due to voltage issues)

[harrry]

I think a coffee grinder is more important than the machine. You should use a cone grinder so that the grounds are all the same size not just one of those cutter blade things.

Coffee has to be ground when you make the coffee not before. Half the flavor is lost in the first 5 minutes.

Edited April 20, 2012 by harrry