Need Urgent Help With Child Custody

[0zz1]

This is the case in short.

My girlfriend (we had our wedding ceremony but failed to get the paper work done) died 1.5 months ago. She left behind 13 year old daughter that has been living with us for past 2.5 years (before that she was raised by her grandma). She is like daughter to me.

After funeral grandma moved to live with us in Chiang Mai and wanted to look after the girl. Everything was ok (never good) until yesterday night when she snapped and after kicking the dogs started beating my daughter. First she broke one hanger into 4 pieces by hitting her so hard with it and once she got wooden stick in her hand I had to go in the middle of it. She was so furious that she would not listen anybody or anything. My daughter was so scared that she pied in her pants... and this has been happening over and over again when she (grandma) higher her voice. I know from my "wife" that grandma used to beat her up frequently when they where living together.

Now after this incident I told that I want her to go back to Khong Kaen and not to stay with us. I had translator coming to my place as well (I speak ok Thai, but cant understand Lao very well). She explained how I felt and that she should leave tomorrow (Monday).

Well grandma snapped again and now she is leaving tomorrow but she is taking my daughter with her. I can not allow this to happen. First of all she would have to quit school and go to work to support grandma, secondly Im seriously scared that she might loose her life if grandma goes crazy again.

Now the plan was this: My daughter asked that she could still go to school tomorrow (btw. she is really scared of the grandma). Then I would go pick her up from there midday and we would go to police and try to get help. She would explain that she does not want to go and that grandma is violent. We would ask for police to also help to remove the grandma from my house (this is very it starts to get dangerous for me as well).

Now the plan is not very good... but its the best I can think of now... as far as I know since both of her parents are dead the grandma is the legal guardian? So it does not look too good for me... also Im not her father (by blood) and I was never even married to her mother (in paper). But her mothers will (unwritten) was that I would take care of her daughter. The doctor at Suan Dok hospital was in the room when we where talking about this and decided to get written will (which did not make it on time to hospital). There might also be some other withnesses that can testify that it was her will that the custody would come to me. How much this counts for - I dont know.

The other thing is... that in the case I get somehow her kept here and grandma removed from Chiang Mai... I would not be surprised that if one night pick up truck comes to my house and punch of red shirts (Issan farmers) comes with bamboo sticks and guns... So Im not sure If we would be safe in Chiang Mai anymore, but thats maeby not to worry yet.

Other family members who might also want the custody if grandma does not get it and ask them to help would be my wife's 4 bothers. From fathers side: grandparents we do not know where they are so apparently not going to get involved and the father is dead also.

So if my chances to get the custody are not too good... even a child custody officers would be better option than grandma.

Please any good advice...

as well as good child custody lawyers in CM... prefer women as it would be easier for my daughter to speak with them.

[wolf5370]

Assuming you can aford it - can you offer the old bag a stippend in lieu of the granddaughter working to support her. Then speak to a lawyer about legally adopting the girl - after that she will have no call over the girl legally so you can stop paying if you wish - and move without telling her where you moved to!

Also take the kid to the police station and report the assault - get photos of bruises etc - they may do nothing about it, but the incident number (get it from the police) can be used in a custody hearing. Talk to the lawyer about this - maybe take him/her with you to the cop shop. Take photos of bruises.

PS: I take my hat off to you - I think if my wife's GM hit my daughter (let alone with a weapon)I would have knocked her in to next week!

Edited September 5, 2010 by wolf5370

[uptheos]

It's going to be difficult getting sound advice here, your situation really doesn't sound good.

The only thing I can think of is money, a top notch negotiator and impeccable paperwork (agreements).

I think it's going to cost you a lot whichever way you go, but your stepdaughter sounds worth it, so I guess you have to try.

And if per chance you do succeed, get as far away from relatives as possible and leave no forwarding address.

All the very best.

[Contractor]

Assuming you can aford it - can you offer the old bag a stippend in lieu of the granddaughter working to support her. Then speak to a lawyer about legally adopting the girl - after that she will have no call over the girl legally so you can stop paying if you wish - and move without telling her where you moved to!

Also take the kid to the police station and report the assault - get photos of bruises etc - they may do nothing about it, but the incident number (get it from the police) can be used in a custody hearing. Talk to the lawyer about this - maybe take him/her with you to the cop shop. Take photos of bruises.

PS: I take my hat off to you - I think if my wife's GM hit my daughter (let alone with a weapon)I would have knocked her in to next week!

Also, seize and keep any implement used to hit the child and get a doctor to examine and record any injuries. Try and get the child to make a written statement about the violence she has suffered.

Although the Police may not do anything (immediately or at all) such collection and recording of evidence of the grandmother's behaviour may prove very useful to you (and the child) in any future legal action.

I wish you the best of luck in this horrible situation.

Rgds

Edited September 5, 2010 by Contractor

[ThaiPauly]

Get on the phone to a Lawyer at 9am.

Ajarn Akarawath 053-246-443 Mob: 081-568-6865 Speaks good English.

Ajarn Sanylux 053-216-010 Mob: 0181-73150

These two lawyers (and others) are pinned in the CM News and Events thread, and are recommended by other members.

You may not like what you hear, but it will be the law. Consider maybe driving your daughter to one of the lawyer's offices before Grandma takes her. Their addresses are also pinned on the forum

Good luck.

[0zz1]

thanks for the advices.... by the way... I already tried with money... both with 1 time payment and monthly support for the rest of her life for grandma... did not work at this point she has already lost all rationality

[0zz1]

I found a lawyer who is specialized in child custody cases. Meeting today, his English is ok and Thai fluent so should be fine. Things has changed tiny bit and grandma is a little scared of the police and said she is not taking her granddaughter away but still wants to stay here looking after her... so that might mean i got some more time to get the custody. Now the next plan is that I only allow her to stay if she sings the papers that she will not want the custody and agrees that custody should go to me.

[jackr]

Nice one. Although she deserved to be knocked out, best to keep things calm while attempting to get the paperwork sorted (as you are). Feed her all sorts of stuff about you'll be happy for her to stay on and will pay, and so on, then kick her out on her ass, move, and sever all contact. Obviously have the new place sorted out before you throw her in the klong. In the meantime, don't leave your daughter alone with the kwai.

Edited September 6, 2010 by jackr

[newbie001]

I am curious how this turns out.

I suspect that unless her mother gave you power of attorney, you have no rights at all. I also don't see how the police can do anything. Most likely the grandmother is the legal guardian once the mom died and there is little police can do against parents or grand parents hitting their kids unless it is a severe thing.

Remember that if you follow some others advice and take her away from grandma without legal consent, you could be serving years in prison for kidnapping. I know it is stupid but you really don't have legal rights because you were not married.

The role of step father isn't a strong one here legally. Where is her biological father?

You supported her for 2.5 years out of 13 which is admirable but not much in the grand scheme. Personally, I would just walk away, I don't think that it is worth it in the long run. You will most likely lose a custody battle. If the grandmother is willing to give you custody and sign the petition for adoption, then you are good to go and can do a great thing for this girl, but otherwise you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I still don't understand why people get married in a ceremony and don't do the legal paperwork that takes all of 30 minutes.

[NancyL]

Newbie001, people don't bother to register marriages for the same reason they don't get final Wills. Both are very easy to execute here. My recent posting on our experience in obtaining a Thai Will was basically greeted with a yawn (and some excuses grounded in ignorance) and I've found the same attitude in talking with my friends about the subject. It's so sad. A registered marriage certificate and final Will would have prevented all the problems the poor OP has decided to take on.

[0zz1]

Things changed a little bit and Im now with Ajarn Akarawat.

We will file the case to court tomorrow and take it from there.

What I did not know is that currently my daughter does not have guardian at all... legally grandma is not more an guardian than I. Only court can decide who will be given the guardianship. So that is good news... apparently also once the case is filed to the court (tomorrow) she does not have any right to try to take the girl out of Chiang Mai province where the court hearing will be arranged (neither do I have such a right).

[MagnumForce]

Keep us posted on how this develops please Ozz1. It is an interesting predicament you're in as well as a worrying one for you and I'm sure there are some folks out there in similar situations if a Thai spouse dies leaving behind a child who is not technically yours but you want to continue taking care of them.

And best of luck! Hope all works out well for you both.

Edited September 6, 2010 by MagnumForce

[sarahsbloke]

Things changed a little bit and Im now with Ajarn Akarawat.

We will file the case to court tomorrow and take it from there.

What I did not know is that currently my daughter does not have guardian at all... legally grandma is not more an guardian than I. Only court can decide who will be given the guardianship. So that is good news... apparently also once the case is filed to the court (tomorrow) she does not have any right to try to take the girl out of Chiang Mai province where the court hearing will be arranged (neither do I have such a right).

Please let us all know what happens.

Good luck for tomorrow!

[NancyL]

How difficult is it for a westerner married to a Thai to adopt her children? I know several guys in that situation and they love the wife's Thai children very much. It would be sad to think they could loose those kids if something happened to their wife.

[realthaideal]

Glad things are looking a little more positive for you Ozz. My thoughts here are with the others that suggest playing it cool, and then offering some money in sincerity. With this old lady's harsh ways, I don't think there's much love there, and knowing that there's a little stipend of cash coming from her kin might very well be enough to send her happily packing back to the sticks. I have a feeling a lady like this has a price. I don't know your means, but some funding should do the trick if not grease the wheels of getting papers signed. After awhile then, it's up to you whether to go undercover and move away or not. Btw.... don't make it look like your means are too good either, make a good show of the hard work to secure what modest amount of money you have to offer. You don't want to give her ideas that shaking you down is easy,and more, bigger paychecks are not far off. Good luck n keep us posted !

[CMX]

In my country, a great deal of time would be taken to interview the child over a period of time. Her many concerns, it must be hoped, will be heard by a wise and sympathetic judge or staff equally qualified.

[Bill97]

Newbie001, people don't bother to register marriages for the same reason they don't get final Wills. Both are very easy to execute here. My recent posting on our experience in obtaining a Thai Will was basically greeted with a yawn (and some excuses grounded in ignorance) and I've found the same attitude in talking with my friends about the subject. It's so sad. A registered marriage certificate and final Will would have prevented all the problems the poor OP has decided to take on.

I don't think a registered marriage would significantly help to avoid the custody issue, it is just not that simple here legally. Nor would a will but just maybe an appointment of guardian might.

Even a farang blood father can have difficulty getting custody unless all the paperwork was done properly registering the birth, according to what I have read.

[jayinoz]

This is a 13 yo girl- not a 2yo. Who she wishes to stay will count for something to the Family court judge.

Through personal experience with an x-wife she did have a price to buy my daughter from her. As I would have never won in court. Have it all legalized and have my x-wife not bother to turn up at court. Easy yet expensive yet worth it.

Anyway my thoughts are the same as many above 'the old hag has a price'. She either thinks you are not sincere OR she thinks you are wealthier than you let on. Now she needs to FEEL that you will help her out much more also in the future and you and your daughter will come to visit her often. She needs a SAVE FACE story to tell her village every day- it goes like this 'my past daughters Farang gave me XYZ and they will come to visit very often- he takes good care of me- they only stay in the city for my grand daughters education- I am back in the village as I not like the city so much, blaa, blaa'. Play this game that you will TAKE CARE of Grandma if she respectful to you and your daughter.

Must be done when the heat cools and it is all forgotten in her mind. Approx. 2 days- Lol. You must never think that she will be all OK now- you NEED custody. YES- I know the payment of money to lawyers, etc is a pain (I predict 70-100K bt) for custody. Yet worth it for her protection.

Yet payment to Grandma UP TO YOU- as when you have custody in as little as 1-2 months you can sent her on her bike. Or drop her off in her village then bye bye Grandma. It not legally necessary- it sounds like you are following the right course of action. As Grandma will not turn up at court, so no one should contest your custody.

You will prove you been with your dead partner for 2.5 years and her daughter and her daughter is purely dependant on you. When the issue of other relatives comes up then your 13yo daughter can tell of the abuse from Grandma- job done.

Done before Nov 2010 I predict- so keep Grandma calm and collected until then....

[scorecard]

I am curious how this turns out.

I suspect that unless her mother gave you power of attorney, you have no rights at all. I also don't see how the police can do anything. Most likely the grandmother is the legal guardian once the mom died and there is little police can do against parents or grand parents hitting their kids unless it is a severe thing.

Remember that if you follow some others advice and take her away from grandma without legal consent, you could be serving years in prison for kidnapping. I know it is stupid but you really don't have legal rights because you were not married.

The role of step father isn't a strong one here legally. Where is her biological father?

You supported her for 2.5 years out of 13 which is admirable but not much in the grand scheme. Personally, I would just walk away, I don't think that it is worth it in the long run. You will most likely lose a custody battle. If the grandmother is willing to give you custody and sign the petition for adoption, then you are good to go and can do a great thing for this girl, but otherwise you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I still don't understand why people get married in a ceremony and don't do the legal paperwork that takes all of 30 minutes.

Don't assume anything at this stage and get good legal advice as already suggested. And be careful you don't say / do anything that could be held against you t a later time.

And suggest you don't go around saying things about issan farmers / red shirts.

[0zz1]

One thing I should add. For my surprise the money thing did not work... I think it had something do with her loosing her face and before we got into the numbers we realized that its not gonna work. And yes it looks like its gonna cost me around 200k not including the money i loose not working and not including any possible bribes to the family members.

One interesting thing is that as far as I understood the only way court will informa about the hearing date is posted letters. Apparently one for my address and one to address where my daughter is registered to (Khong Kaen). In Khong Kaen there will be no-one picking up the letter unless some neighbor does. So that could mean that im in the court with my daughter alone??

The good thing is that even if the dinosaur gets to the court room she will for sure loose her temper and try to insult the judges. I hope there are some weapons of her choice available and she can just prove the case herself.

[0zz1]

Just a quick update. I just got a call from my lawyer and I won the case in Chiang Mai Court !!! So im officially daddy now =)

We did go with the adoption (gives automatically custody). Still have to wait for some weeks with all the paper work but the case is won!!!

thanks to Khun Akarawath and his crew!

[Contractor]

Just a quick update. I just got a call from my lawyer and I won the case in Chiang Mai Court !!! So im officially daddy now =)

We did go with the adoption (gives automatically custody). Still have to wait for some weeks with all the paper work but the case is won!!!

thanks to Khun Akarawath and his crew!

Well done and good luck for the future

Rgds

[nikster]

Happy ending! Love it! And, congratulations!

Edited November 22, 2010 by nikster

[onnut]

Cool, well done. this is a happy ending.

[Nienke]

Just a quick update. I just got a call from my lawyer and I won the case in Chiang Mai Court !!! So im officially daddy now =)

We did go with the adoption (gives automatically custody). Still have to wait for some weeks with all the paper work but the case is won!!!

thanks to Khun Akarawath and his crew!

Wonderful news. Congratulations and all the best to you and your daughter!

[ChiangMaiFun]

Just a quick update. I just got a call from my lawyer and I won the case in Chiang Mai Court !!! So im officially daddy now =)

We did go with the adoption (gives automatically custody). Still have to wait for some weeks with all the paper work but the case is won!!!

thanks to Khun Akarawath and his crew!

Good for you! I am still amazed at how selfish Thais can be sometimes - call herself a GM? lucky girl to have a decent Dad like you

[bluejays]

Congratulations & all the best to you

[bangkokcitylimits]

Cool

Congratulations and good luck !

[jayjay0]

Congratulations.

I have a idea of how you must have felt. My wife has grown up kids but with the money I give her she supports her mother. She also helps out with nieces and a challenged nephew. If sh was to die I would fel like I am still responsible. Kinda like a family away from home. I know for sure I would take a bigger part in the challenged nephew.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Ozz1,

Really happy to hear you won the oourt case !

best, ~o:37;