The Problem With Thai Face

[wintermute]

Face doesnt seem to have held the Japanese back.

That's because the Japanese are pragmatic, value intellectualism, and are hardworking to boot. They have a very united culture that emphasizes this sort of productivity.

Thailand does not really value this sort of pragmatism and it's definitely not an intellectual society. This isn't a knock on Thais but deep critical thinking and analysis just isn't their strong point. These skills come in handy if you're trying to innovate or compete in international business.

The hardworking thing..a lot of Thais do work very hard for little pay but most don't do it efficiently or are constrained by society when their effort would be much better spent on becoming an educated or skilled worker first.

[IanForbes]

Face doesnt seem to have held the Japanese back.

That's because the Japanese are pragmatic, value intellectualism, and are hardworking to boot. They have a very united culture that emphasizes this sort of productivity.

Thailand does not really value this sort of pragmatism and it's definitely not an intellectual society. This isn't a knock on Thais but deep critical thinking and analysis just isn't their strong point. These skills come in handy if you're trying to innovate or compete in international business.

The hardworking thing..a lot of Thais do work very hard for little pay but most don't do it efficiently or are constrained by society when their effort would be much better spent on becoming an educated or skilled worker first.

Good summation of the Japanese. There are "some" similarities to the Germanic thinking process.

[wintermute]

Face doesnt seem to have held the Japanese back.

That's because the Japanese are pragmatic, value intellectualism, and are hardworking to boot. They have a very united culture that emphasizes this sort of productivity.

Thailand does not really value this sort of pragmatism and it's definitely not an intellectual society. This isn't a knock on Thais but deep critical thinking and analysis just isn't their strong point. These skills come in handy if you're trying to innovate or compete in international business.

The hardworking thing..a lot of Thais do work very hard for little pay but most don't do it efficiently or are constrained by society when their effort would be much better spent on becoming an educated or skilled worker first.

Good summation of the Japanese. There are "some" similarities to the Germanic thinking process.

If you look at history these two cultures are distinct in their ability to quickly adapt, innovate, and unify. Even prior to WW2 both countries had reinvented themselves a few times and were usually one step ahead of their neighbors until they got a bit carried away with their ethnocentrism.

[MAJIC]

This emphasis on the face thing,has always puzzled me too,

the only thing that I can think of is:a National sense of low self esteem perhaps?

so a small error must be corrected or denied so as not to lose competitive peer status?

But I could be wrong (and thats my face lost)

Edited September 11, 2010 by MAJIC

[thequick7]

Look, I've been around Thais for many years...probably so have you, come to think of it. I've seen the "face" thing cause problems with even educated Thais who speak excellant English, and have grown up with and went to school with westerners (Farangs for want of a better word) from youth. The "face" thing is embedded in Asian (not just Thai) culture, and they are taught that from birth. You just have to learn to accept it...because if you really want to function in Thailand (or anywhere in Asia) you have to follow the local rules.

"Face" is not only cfor the person who makes the mistake, it also has a role in not embarresing other people. For example, I once heard a Thai who knew perfectly well the bus schedule, tell a westerner that, "Yes he could take a bus to XXXX and come back to Bangkok the evening on the last bus." I knew this was wrong, and I told the westerner so...he would have to spend a night in XXXX before being able to get a bus back to Bangkok. After he left I asked my Thai friend why he hadn't said this to the westerner. My Thai friend, who had grown up since childhood with Farangs and went to a school with Farangs said,"Yes, I knew that. But if I had told him that he was wrong about getting the bus back that same day, HE (meaning the Farang) would lose "face"; and I didn't want to cause him any embaressment". I guess all I'm trying to say is that the "face" thing is deeply embedded in Asian culture, so you have to learn to accept it. In western (farang) societies here are things you just don't speak about...(i.e. you may think your wife's sister is looking really sexy tonight, and she may know you do, but you don't let her know and she usually doesn't let you know she knows).... because it's not polite...but both you know and the other party knows the real truth. You learned those rules when young, they were drilled into you. They are just apart of the accepted "social contract" that guides your actions in society. You barely think about them now, they have been trained into you. There are certain things in Thailand, and Asia, that are the same. You have to learn to accept them even if you don't understand them.

And, by the way, not to be intentionally rude, but your comment about Buddhisim is so far off the mark, it would take me another whole post to even to begin to explain what is wrong with it. So let's just agree to not talk about that. (We'll all save "face" that way).

Just out of curiosity, did you ask your thai friend if he would have given the same answer to a thai person? Another question that comes to mind is if the roles had been reversed and it was your thai friend asking the question, what answer would he prefer? (Would he rather a wrong answer and not lose face, or would he rather lose face but get the right answer?) Is this why thai's tend to not ask strangers for information to avoid this situation altogether?

Edited September 12, 2010 by thequick7

[BillR]

I had a very small situation yesterday with one of my staff in regards to him forgetting to do part of his job. I didn't even mention it to him but I think one of the other staff might of phoned him to make him aware of the issue. It was something I was not upset about in the least, I was only going to remind him to take care of the simple task as part of his job requirement.

His wife called in sick for him, I think to avoid the most minuscule loss of face.

Edited September 12, 2010 by BillR

[sillyman99]

What we commonly see from Thais I would call selfishness and an obsession with their own status.

So they're like Farangs then ?

[TheLaughingMan]

What we commonly see from Thais I would call selfishness and an obsession with their own status.

So they're like Farangs then ?

Not hardly.

[sillyman99]

What we commonly see from Thais I would call selfishness and an obsession with their own status.

So they're like Farangs then ?

Not hardly.

Please explain.

Are you saying that Farangs are unselfish and in no way obsessed with their status ?

[wintermute]

What we commonly see from Thais I would call selfishness and an obsession with their own status.

So they're like Farangs then ?

Not hardly.

Please explain.

Are you saying that Farangs are unselfish and in no way obsessed with their status ?

Welcome to the thai visa double standards. You have a lot of aging expats who fled their homeland because they couldn't actually hack it but speak of it in lofty utopian terms like all westerners are moral saints. When other farang act like ... it's an individual flaw however if a Thai person does it suddenly it becomes an example of their race or nationality used to generalize about the people as a whole.

Edited September 12, 2010 by LivinginKata
profanity removed

[sillyman99]

Welcome to the thai visa double standards. You have a lot of aging expats who fled their homeland because they couldn't actually hack it but speak of it in lofty utopian terms like all westerners are moral saints. When other farang act like ... it's an individual flaw however if a Thai person does it suddenly it becomes an example of their race or nationality used to generalize about the people as a whole.

WinterMute,

That is very very true.

Well said.

[orpheus454]

Face doesnt seem to have held the Japanese back.

That's because the Japanese are pragmatic, value intellectualism, and are hardworking to boot. They have a very united culture that emphasizes this sort of productivity.

Thailand does not really value this sort of pragmatism and it's definitely not an intellectual society. This isn't a knock on Thais but deep critical thinking and analysis just isn't their strong point. These skills come in handy if you're trying to innovate or compete in international business.

The hardworking thing..a lot of Thais do work very hard for little pay but most don't do it efficiently or are constrained by society when their effort would be much better spent on becoming an educated or skilled worker first.

Good summation of the Japanese. There are "some" similarities to the Germanic thinking process.

Yep. They were quite apparent about 70 years ago...

[edwardandtubs]

<br />I had a very small situation yesterday with one of my staff in regards to him forgetting to do part of his job.  I didn't even mention it to him but I think one of the other staff might of phoned him to make him aware of the issue. It was something I was not upset about in the least, I was only going to remind him to take care of the simple task as part of his job requirement.<br /><br />His wife called in sick for him, I think to avoid the most minuscule  loss of face.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

One problem is westerners thinking that every little action on the part of a Thai is down to 'face'. I've worked with many Thais and have never experienced anyone calling in sick to avoid loss of face. A more likely explanation would be that he forget to do the job because he was beginning to feel sick but soldiered on for the rest of the day regardless, but by the following day he was too sick for work. Why do you read 'face' into every little action by your staff?

[BillR]

<br />I had a very small situation yesterday with one of my staff in regards to him forgetting to do part of his job. I didn't even mention it to him but I think one of the other staff might of phoned him to make him aware of the issue. It was something I was not upset about in the least, I was only going to remind him to take care of the simple task as part of his job requirement.<br /><br />His wife called in sick for him, I think to avoid the most minuscule loss of face.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

One problem is westerners thinking that every little action on the part of a Thai is down to 'face'. I've worked with many Thais and have never experienced anyone calling in sick to avoid loss of face. A more likely explanation would be that he forget to do the job because he was beginning to feel sick but soldiered on for the rest of the day regardless, but by the following day he was too sick for work. Why do you read 'face' into every little action by your staff?

every little action? It was the first time ever he had called in sick. I have other staff who make mistakes and I let them know and they are mostly receptive to the criticism, although without fail they get red in the face. I also recently received misinformation from my accountant which ended up costing me a few thousand baht. She denied ever telling me the wrong info, and when I forwarded the email she sent me months ago as clear evidence she never replied to admit she was wrong and I don't have my fingers crossed for an apology or admission. My point is that it is ok to be wrong or to make a mistake or forget to do something, I do all the time. Just admit it which in my experience seems difficult for thai people that I have dealt with.

[slapout]

Greater longevity in a position, older age of the individual, in relation to peers also seem to enter into the potential lose of face reaction. The 'do as I say not as I do', do not question authority figures, (with the possible exception of politics) and the seemly reluctance to say 'I do not know" may play a large role in the reactions we see or hear about. The reluctance to point out a wrong to a supervisor has been mentioned (known as brown nosing in some circles) is probably just that.

Have you heard many Thais ask their children for help in solving a problem they are encountering (math, science, etc)?How many times have you been told that a item is not available when you can see it? This may be due to our spoken Thai or foreign language is not understandable to them. How many times have you seen a Thai laugh at a joke between a group of farang and you know they do not understand?

I do not understand the "face thing" as it seems when I think I can anticipate how to keep everyone looking good, somehow there is some, I thought was inconsequential thing, that upsets someone, for some reason (theirs)

[wayfarer108]

I like the Thais' face-saving attitude. Once you understand how it works, you can function quite well here, even use it to your advantage. To me it's a large part of Thai-ness, and makes living here more pleasant, in general. Sure it's not all good, but what society is? I hate the whole Western in-your-face culture I came from.

YMMV ....

[edwardandtubs]

Here's a great joke to play on a Thai person. Ask them what the capital city of a made-up country is (Dulgrovia, for example). They'll never say 'I don't know'. After they've squirmed for a while, let them in on the joke and watch their reaction.

[MAJIC]

Heres another example of "Face"

Went to pick up my new Toyota Vios after Valeting,and no Cigar lighter was in the dashboard socket.

So I got the sales lady out, who said it was in the glove compartment,it wasn't, she looked and then said it was in the boot (trunk) it wasn't of course. Then she said" I give to your wife" I said no she hadn't.

Then she said "oh remember,law Thailand say cannot smoke in car"

Never did get one!

Edited September 12, 2010 by MAJIC

[wintermute]

Heres another example of "Face"

Went to pick up my new Toyota Vios after Valeting,and no Cigar lighter was in the dashboard socket.

So I got the sales lady out, who said it was in the glove compartment,it wasn't, she looked and then said it was in the boot (trunk) it wasn't of course. Then she said" I give to your wife" I said no she hadn't.

Then she said "oh remember,law Thailand say cannot smoke in car"

Never did get one!

This isn't because of face but rather she probably didn't give a dam_n and wanted you out of the area asap before you might start complaining loudly. When it comes to defective merchandise, missing items, or shoddy workmanship the worker bees tend to be totally apathetic to the customer.

[canuckamuck]

Here's a great joke to play on a Thai person. Ask them what the capital city of a made-up country is (Dulgrovia, for example). They'll never say 'I don't know'. After they've squirmed for a while, let them in on the joke and watch their reaction.

I thought the capital of Dulgrovia was London.

[phetaroi]

My Thai ex works in the Thai Education Ministry in the section that decides on technology hardware and software contracts. He told me they found a great reluctance on the part of western software companies to deal with the Thai government or Thai private industry, and wondered if I had any idea why. I told him that in my view American software companies were wary of dealing with Thai entities because there is so much theft of software technology in Thailand, as we had both discussed when we visited Pantip Plaza...many times. His response: "You don't love Thailand."

[phetaroi]

Welcome to the thai visa double standards. You have a lot of aging expats who fled their homeland because they couldn't actually hack it but speak of it in lofty utopian terms like all westerners are moral saints. When other farang act like ... it's an individual flaw however if a Thai person does it suddenly it becomes an example of their race or nationality used to generalize about the people as a whole.

You mean sort of like what you just did, in reverse? I only stayed for a little over a year, but I was an American expat who was fully retired. Before retirement I was very successful in my field. I can see all the faults in America, and am willing to discuss them openly. That doesn't mean that Thailand doesn't have its faults, as well.

[slipperx]

There was an article, I think the bangkok post, written by a thai which compared the thai mentality to that of an ostrich. Standing tall when things are ok, running the other way, head in the sand when things go wrong.

Yes I have seen that many times. Rather than confront a mistake it is common for Thais to avoid it, stop thinking about it and hoping it will all go away. Of course it doesn't and just gets worse.

Much like borrowing money from a money lender, being unable to pay the interest and running away until the asset is seized losing most of the value of the asset once held as the money lenders will only lend about 30% of value in the first place. Borrow 30% and lose 70% rather than confront the issue, realize one has been really stupid and selling something quick to get the loan repaid. That is one example of how how face creates a problem here.

[Berkshire]

As someone pointed out people of lower socioeconomic classes tend to have more of this behavior it's not Thai people is the Thai people you hang out with ...... You're using a 7 year old child and a restaurant worker as examples. None of the people my wife and I hang out with or their children behave like that or have that attitude, sure children might behave that way until they are corrected. Seems like another post where the Farang is trying to mistakenly believe his child rearing skills\values are so much superior to the Thai peoples. Your trying to say that Thai people in general act like uneducated children, and that's not true, uneducated people act like uneducated people and that is not Thai specific as prior posts have pointed out. Most of the times I hear these types of posts I come to the same thought, another poster stuck in a low socioeconomic situation complaining and wondering why everyone else can't be as wonderful as they are.

"Thai's generally push the blame for their own misdeeds or failure to act onto someone else." ......... If you had Thai friends in even the middle income socioeconomic class you would know better than that.

"Or is it some Buddist issue where you can do what you like in this life as long as you understand you will be punished in the next one, so what the hel_l do as you please and become essentially totally self centred and selfish? ........ That statement indicates why you don't have more friends in a higher socioeconomic class.

The funny thing is the people you think don't exist in very high numbers are actually quite numerous, it's just that while you might be looking for them or to hang out with them they are probably looking to avoid yet another Farang who mistakenly thinks he has it all figured out as to the Thai's generally doing this or that, and is happy to say so, but in the next breath proves he hasn't a clue, all the while asserting he has all the solutions to fix the sad state of affairs in Thailand..........

Well written, Mr. Richard. I only included partial excerpts above, but your points are spot on. It seems like most of the farangs on this forum hang out with the most downtrodden, uneducated, lowest status Thais in Thailand. And they seem to think these lowest class of Thais run the country. But you're right, these farangs really don't have a clue what's really going on, but are so quick to pat each other on the back, so convinced of their superiority. Yet, see them in person and you'll find the sorriest bunch of losers ever to wash up on these shores. The terms "loss of face" and "racism" seems to be the explanation used by every idiot farang who doesn't get his way, but most times has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[Berkshire]

Yes I have seen that many times. Rather than confront a mistake it is common for Thais to avoid it, stop thinking about it and hoping it will all go away. Of course it doesn't and just gets worse.

Much like borrowing money from a money lender, being unable to pay the interest and running away until the asset is seized losing most of the value of the asset once held as the money lenders will only lend about 30% of value in the first place. Borrow 30% and lose 70% rather than confront the issue, realize one has been really stupid and selling something quick to get the loan repaid. That is one example of how how face creates a problem here.

So you're the guy who's Thai wife ran off with your millions (allegedly). Have an axe to grind, do we?

[Berkshire]

Welcome to the thai visa double standards. You have a lot of aging expats who fled their homeland because they couldn't actually hack it but speak of it in lofty utopian terms like all westerners are moral saints. When other farang act like ... it's an individual flaw however if a Thai person does it suddenly it becomes an example of their race or nationality used to generalize about the people as a whole.

WinterMute,

That is very very true.

Well said.

Agree.

[wintermute]

Welcome to the thai visa double standards. You have a lot of aging expats who fled their homeland because they couldn't actually hack it but speak of it in lofty utopian terms like all westerners are moral saints. When other farang act like ... it's an individual flaw however if a Thai person does it suddenly it becomes an example of their race or nationality used to generalize about the people as a whole.

You mean sort of like what you just did, in reverse? I only stayed for a little over a year, but I was an American expat who was fully retired. Before retirement I was very successful in my field. I can see all the faults in America, and am willing to discuss them openly. That doesn't mean that Thailand doesn't have its faults, as well.

Pointing out the double standard isn't maintaining the same position in reverse. Actually i've never said that all expats were one way or another but only pointed out that there is definitely a trend in how opinions are expressed on here and the demographic involved.

[IanForbes]

As someone pointed out people of lower socioeconomic classes tend to have more of this behavior it's not Thai people is the Thai people you hang out with ...... You're using a 7 year old child and a restaurant worker as examples. None of the people my wife and I hang out with or their children behave like that or have that attitude, sure children might behave that way until they are corrected. Seems like another post where the Farang is trying to mistakenly believe his child rearing skills\values are so much superior to the Thai peoples. Your trying to say that Thai people in general act like uneducated children, and that's not true, uneducated people act like uneducated people and that is not Thai specific as prior posts have pointed out. Most of the times I hear these types of posts I come to the same thought, another poster stuck in a low socioeconomic situation complaining and wondering why everyone else can't be as wonderful as they are.

"Thai's generally push the blame for their own misdeeds or failure to act onto someone else." ......... If you had Thai friends in even the middle income socioeconomic class you would know better than that.

"Or is it some Buddist issue where you can do what you like in this life as long as you understand you will be punished in the next one, so what the hel_l do as you please and become essentially totally self centred and selfish? ........ That statement indicates why you don't have more friends in a higher socioeconomic class.

The funny thing is the people you think don't exist in very high numbers are actually quite numerous, it's just that while you might be looking for them or to hang out with them they are probably looking to avoid yet another Farang who mistakenly thinks he has it all figured out as to the Thai's generally doing this or that, and is happy to say so, but in the next breath proves he hasn't a clue, all the while asserting he has all the solutions to fix the sad state of affairs in Thailand..........

Well written, Mr. Richard. I only included partial excerpts above, but your points are spot on. It seems like most of the farangs on this forum hang out with the most downtrodden, uneducated, lowest status Thais in Thailand. And they seem to think these lowest class of Thais run the country. But you're right, these farangs really don't have a clue what's really going on, but are so quick to pat each other on the back, so convinced of their superiority. Yet, see them in person and you'll find the sorriest bunch of losers ever to wash up on these shores. The terms "loss of face" and "racism" seems to be the explanation used by every idiot farang who doesn't get his way, but most times has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Your stereotype is just as bad as the people you are complaining about. There is no one size fits all. To say there are not cultural differences between western societies and Asian societies is just plain asinine. I'm sorry, but there is such a thing as Thai face. Only the ignorant deny it. However, that does not make the Thais either bad or good. It's just a culture thing. Smart businessmen learn to deal with it. Those that don't seldom succeed, and most often they have trouble keeping staff.

[Berkshire]

Your stereotype is just as bad as the people you are complaining about. There is no one size fits all. To say there are not cultural differences between western societies and Asian societies is just plain asinine. I'm sorry, but there is such a thing as Thai face. Only the ignorant deny it. However, that does not make the Thais either bad or good. It's just a culture thing. Smart businessmen learn to deal with it. Those that don't seldom succeed, and most often they have trouble keeping staff.

Actually, Ian, we're not talking about cultural differences or misunderstandings here. Of course we know about cultural differences and in this case, we're really talking about societies that deem peace and harmony to be a high priority. This is not just Asia, but Latin America, Arabic, and various other collectivist societies. But nevermind all that, this thread is about Thai-bashing. You should know that.

[canuckamuck]

Of course we know about cultural differences and in this case, we're really talking about societies that deem peace and harmony to be a high priority. This is not just Asia, but Latin America, Arabic, and various other collectivist societies. But nevermind all that, this thread is about Thai-bashing. You should know that.

Yep those are the peace loving hot spots for sure.