Detailed Approach To Learning Thai Vowels

[Delight]

Decided to write this piece on Thai vowels

Opinions -Positive and Negative are welcomeUNDERSTANDING THAI VOWEL DOCUMENT .doc

[Thules]

Many thanks for this, OP. It will certainly help me learn my Thai vowels.

[SoftWater]

Yes, its good (as it gets). But I'm not sure its new...

[Thules]

OP, my Understanding of the Thai language sure isn't good enough to understand the originality of how your memorization of the vowels can be easily memorized or not.

But I sure appreciate your try !.. For the sake of us novices, I would also appreciate those adept in Thai,to add their preferences. I find learning written and read Thai tough, and appreciate advice by those whom have become masters.

Cudos to them, but please impart your wisdom also

[Delight]

Yes, its good (as it gets). But I'm not sure its new...

Thanks for your input

what I consider new are the following:-

1) Every Vowel chart that I have seen always list them SHORT vowel LONG vowel order

The order is irrelevant for native Thai speakers.

Changing the order is an idea to suit fa rang -for the following reasons

2) Use of the SHORT vowel pronunciation Technique.

For this you must have LONG first.

3) Removing ''Aw Ang'' and its SHORT pair leaves a collection of Vowels in which there is a geometric pattern.

Hence the learn to learn to write 7 -get 14 statement.

4)I have never had access to information which details mouth/Jaw movements to assist with LONG vowel pronunciation.

Question

I have (or shortly will have ) a learning aid for Trip -thongs.

In the light of your comment -is there any point in detailing on this forum?

What I seek is constructive comments to fine tune my post.

do you have any?

[Delight]

[quote name='SoftWater' timestamp='1284400556' post='3881560']

Yes, its good (as it gets). But I'm not sure its new...

Thanks for your input.

What I consider new is the following:-

1) Every Vowel chart that I have seen always list them SHORT vowel LONG vowel order

The order is irrelevant for native Thai speakers.

Changing the order is an idea to suit fa rang -for the following reasons.

2) Use of the SHORT vowel pronunciation Technique.

For this you must have LONG first.

3) Removing ''Aw Ang'' and its SHORT pair leaves a collection of Vowels in which there is a geometric pattern.

Hence the' learn to write 7 -get 14 'statement.Again LONG first.

4)I have never had access to information which details mouth/Jaw movements to assist with LONG vowel pronunciation.

5) Detailed explanation (albeit maybe not complete) of pronunciation of the vowel 'EYE'

It is not pronounced as per the English word 'EYE'

Questions

I have (or shortly will have ) a learning aid for Trip -thongs.

In the light of your comment -is there any point in detailing it on this forum?

What I seek is constructive comments to fine tune my post.

Do you have any?

[Delight]

Yes, its good (as it gets). But I'm not sure its new...

/

Sorry I have replied twice to your post

I have suffered a retina detachment to my right eye and albeit it has been re -attached -my vision is impaired.

I got sarcastic comments from a respondent to a earlier post for using larger font.

Ignore my first response.

[SWW]

I am such a pedant ...

Apologies up front for being slightly picky!

ไ- and ใ-, เ-า and -ำ (this one doesn't render so well - apologies) are the four short vowels that are treated as being long for the purposes of tone calculations. They are not long vowels.

The long versions are -าย (and -าย) -าว and -าม

The transmogrification of the เ-อ vowel in the 'medial position' (for example, in the word เชิญ) is only for the LONG vowel, not the short. A short version of that vowel in the medial position is not legal. Missing is the 'special case' of เ-ย if that particular long vowel is followed by a ย, which otherwise would look too similar to the 'ee-a' vowel (as in เอีย). Examples include เลย and เตย.

Apart from that, all seems mightily sensible to me

[Delight]

I am such a pedant ...

Apologies up front for being slightly picky!

ไ- and ใ-, เ-า and -ำ (this one doesn't render so well - apologies) are the four short vowels that are treated as being long for the purposes of tone calculations. They are not long vowels.

The long versions are -าย (and -าย) -าว and -าม

The transmogrification of the เ-อ vowel in the 'medial position' (for example, in the word เชิญ) is only for the LONG vowel, not the short. A short version of that vowel in the medial position is not legal. Missing is the 'special case' of เ-ย if that particular long vowel is followed by a ย, which otherwise would look too similar to the 'ee-a' vowel (as in เอีย). Examples include เลย and เตย.

Apart from that, all seems mightily sensible to me

Thanks for your useful response.

In relation to 'BURN' that was a typing error.

Ref EYE I should have added the Tone Rule note

In relation to the rest -I will study and learn.

(Note: I do not use Thai script on the main body of a post , if at all possible. I think that it immediately inhibits those who cannot read Thai from further interest.)

I will produce a corrected version of my post.

However I think that it makes more sense if I wait a bit.

I do like contributors who are both 'Pedant' and ' Picky '

Thanks again

[SWW]

Thanks for your useful response.

In relation to 'BURN' that was a typing error.[/size]

Ref EYE I should have added the Tone Rule note

In relation to the rest -I will study and learn.

(Note: I do not use Thai script on the main body of a post , if at all possible. I think that it immediately inhibits those who cannot read Thai from further interest.)

I will produce a corrected version of my post.

However I think that it makes more sense if I wait a bit.

I do like contributors who are both 'Pedant' and ' Picky '

Thanks again

If you DO like 'picky' then I will mention the four pseudo-vowels, which are technically vowels (and hail from Sanskrit), although they behave like consonants.

ฦ = ลึ

ฦๅ = ลือ

ฤ = รึ

ฤๅ = รือ

ฦ and ฦๅ are never used - but exist mainly for historical reasons. ฤ is used sparingly, and can be pronounced in three ways, I believe. ฤๅ is used in one single word (ฤๅษี), and probably only still exists because ฤๅษี is the 'title word' for the letter ษ.

Also - there seems to be an 'unspoken rule' that if a -ะ is encountered, it signifies the end of a syllable. This can help when all the words run together! What this means is that you need the special rules for the 'medial position' for vowels that end with -ะ (such as เ-ะ and แ-ะ). But it also brings with it some complications:

1. เ-ะ, แ-ะ and -อ all use the 'shortening' marker -็ to indicate that the vowel is the short version, but that the next consonant is still part of the current syllable. And that marker can not take a tone-mark, which leads to two things: either (1) a combination is simply not possible, so a short 'medial position' vowel (i.e. it is followed by a consonant as part of the current syllable) can NEVER have a 'falling' tone, or (2) it can lead to an irregular spelling/pronunciation (such as how เก่ง is pronounced with a short vowel and a low tone, but the spelling เก็ง which shows the correct vowel-length, can not take the tone marker to indicate the correct tone).

2. There are vowels that can never appear as the 'middle' of a syllable followed by a consonant. For example, the short 'ee-a', 'eu-a' and 'oo-a' vowels, can never appear as 'medial' vowels.

Finally, there are some down-right confusing tone/vowel-length irregular spellings that will baffle the learner of the language until they are safely stuck in the memory - such as เพชร ('diamond') which is the 'wrong' vowel-length or เฉพาะ ('specifically') which is the 'wrong' tone.

[SoftWater]

In the light of your comment -is there any point in detailing it on this forum?

Of course there is, not least because you might be offered corrections to it, as you have with this one.

I'm not sure why my brief comment was seen as unhelpful. You said 'it's new (I think), but is it good?' and I answered: It's OK, but it didn't seem new to me. I've seen dozens of charts like this, so it didn't look to be anything revolutionary to me. You explained why its new, so that helps clarify your 'system' to others, doesn't it?

Personally, I don't think it makes any difference whether you list the long before the short or the short before the long. You could just as easily get the long sound wrong as you could the short one. The only way you can learn the vowels is by hearing them and spending a lot of time reading. As I have recently learned - having had to re-visit and re-correct my vowel sounds - a good idea is to get a handy "kon thai" to sound a word out whenever you come across a new one in reading and learn the vowel sounds through exemplars.

Charts like yours (IMHO, of course...) serve as memory aids not a teaching aid (there's a difference), and since there's only 'long/short' to remember, claiming that reversing the order is some 'new' method strikes me as a bit like hubris to be honest.

In any case, good luck, and keep the postings coming. They aren't doing anyone any harm, and I'm sure they might do someone some good.

:jap:

Edited September 14, 2010 by SoftWater

[Delight]

In the light of your comment -is there any point in detailing it on this forum?

Of course there is, not least because you might be offered corrections to it, as you have with this one.

I'm not sure why my brief comment was seen as unhelpful. You said 'it's new (I think), but is it good?' and I answered: It's OK, but it didn't seem new to me. I've seen dozens of charts like this, so it didn't look to be anything revolutionary to me. You explained why its new, so that helps clarify your 'system' to others, doesn't it?

Personally, I don't think it makes any difference whether you list the long before the short or the short before the long. You could just as easily get the long sound wrong as you could the short one. The only way you can learn the vowels is by hearing them and spending a lot of time reading. As I have recently learned - having had to re-visit and re-correct my vowel sounds - a good idea is to get a handy "kon thai" to sound a word out whenever you come across a new one in reading and learn the vowel sounds through exemplars.

Charts like yours (IMHO, of course...) serve as memory aids not a teaching aid (there's a difference), and since there's only 'long/short' to remember, claiming that reversing the order is some 'new' method strikes me as a bit like hubris to be honest.

In any case, good luck, and keep the postings coming. They aren't doing anyone any harm, and I'm sure they might do someone some good.

:jap:

Thanks for your interest. Last week you were implying that I was a Con Man , Sharla-ton and a All Purpose Vagabond.

We seem to be past that point

I do not wish to labour the point point .The layout of the chart is almost irrelevant. When I attended school the system to learn to speak the vowels was SHORT ,LONG SHORT LONG etc. Each vowel had to be separately learned.

PS did you download the notes that went with it. Without these notes(9 pages) it is just a couple of charts.Not much good to anybody

Please reply to this bit.

The idea behind this post was to have to only learn the Long VOWELS. No teacher ever said just learn the LONG.

Anyway enough!

You are correct of course your . Responses from people like you serve to enhance understanding.

However I do feel inhibited

Most posts on this forum as any other- ask questions ,write for reasons of self glorification or to simply express an opinion (I,m sure that I,ve missed some)

However when you offer to supply information -you never know whether the topic was covered 20 times last month already. It is a lot of work just to find it,s all been done before.

[SoftWater]

Apologies if the welcome last week was less than warm...it was precisely because you didn't do what you are now doing. i.e., offering substantial information.

I will take a better look at your post. You're right I missed the 9 pages.

As for what's been done before, you can use the search function to see what people have discussed at length - tones and transliteration systems have had endless threads devoted to them, but vowels not so much, I don't think.

[Delight]

Apologies if the welcome last week was less than warm...it was precisely because you didn't do what you are now doing. i.e., offering substantial information.

I will take a better look at your post. You're right I missed the 9 pages.

As for what's been done before, you can use the search function to see what people have discussed at length - tones and transliteration systems have had endless threads devoted to them, but vowels not so much, I don't think.

Thanks for your reply.

The piece was not written when I asked for volunteers

I still struggle to see what was wrong with that request

I was suspended from the Thai Language forum -and nobody will explain why.

However that is the end of that topic -I shall move on

If you have missed the 9 pages ,then I suspect everybody else has.

Maybe its piece of junk with the 9.

Without the 9 it,s barely worth replying to

If so -all is explained

I knew you would come good in the end.

Ta

[Delight]

Many thanks for this, OP. It will certainly help me learn my Thai vowels.

Hi Thules

One question-Did you download the notes-9pages

please advise

Alan D Light

[Delight]

I am such a pedant ...

Apologies up front for being slightly picky!

ไ- and ใ-, เ-า and -ำ (this one doesn't render so well - apologies) are the four short vowels that are treated as being long for the purposes of tone calculations. They are not long vowels.

The long versions are -าย (and -าย) -าว and -าม

The transmogrification of the เ-อ vowel in the 'medial position' (for example, in the word เชิญ) is only for the LONG vowel, not the short. A short version of that vowel in the medial position is not legal. Missing is the 'special case' of เ-ย if that particular long vowel is followed by a ย, which otherwise would look too similar to the 'ee-a' vowel (as in เอีย). Examples include เลย and เตย.

Apart from that, all seems mightily sensible to me

Hello Mr Pedant and Picky

Q. Did you down load the 9 pages of notes .

Please advise

Alan D light

Edited September 14, 2010 by Delight

[Richard W]

1. เ-ะ, แ-ะ and -อ all use the 'shortening' marker -็ to indicate that the vowel is the short version, but that the next consonant is still part of the current syllable. And that marker can not take a tone-mark, which leads to two things: either (1) a combination is simply not possible, so a short 'medial position' vowel (i.e. it is followed by a consonant as part of the current syllable) can NEVER have a 'falling' tone, or (2) it can lead to an irregular spelling/pronunciation (such as how เก่ง is pronounced with a short vowel and a low tone, but the spelling เก็ง which shows the correct vowel-length, can not take the tone marker to indicate the correct tone).

I think you meant that one of these vowels with maitaikhu can't have a falling tone - a tone mark would have to replace matiakhu, as in เล่น 'play'.

... เฉพาะ ('specifically') which is the 'wrong' tone.

Occlusive medial consonant trumps initial consonant (also note the combination กษ), so this word has the correct tone, i.e. high for the final syllable.

[Richard W]

The transmogrification of the เ-อ vowel in the 'medial position' (for example, in the word เชิญ) is only for the LONG vowel, not the short. A short version of that vowel in the medial position is not legal.

Short vowels are legal, it just that the spelling can't show them as short, as in [MS]ngoen เงิน 'money'. Sometimes the shortness is shown for transliterated words by placing maitaikhu on the final consonant.

[KunMatt]

Thank you very much for this. I am a beginner and try to learn to read and write Thai first before I move onto speaking it.

This looks like it will be very helpful for me and I will let you know how i get on with it.

I already know some Thai vocab from being in Thailand for a year or so, but for studying by myself when out of Thailand I have just started to use the book "Thai for beginners" by Benjawan Poomsan Becker but that is geared more towards learning how to speak Thai, so I have been try to pick out what was relevant for me as someone just trying to learn how to read and write. Not an ideal situation but I've been getting on ok with the most common consonants and vowels and forming easy sentances.

Your document looks like something that will make it much easier for me.

Thanks a lot.

[bifftastic]

Thank you very much for this. I am a beginner and try to learn to read and write Thai first before I move onto speaking it.

This looks like it will be very helpful for me and I will let you know how i get on with it.

I already know some Thai vocab from being in Thailand for a year or so, but for studying by myself when out of Thailand I have just started to use the book "Thai for beginners" by Benjawan Poomsan Becker but that is geared more towards learning how to speak Thai, so I have been try to pick out what was relevant for me as someone just trying to learn how to read and write. Not an ideal situation but I've been getting on ok with the most common consonants and vowels and forming easy sentances.

Your document looks like something that will make it much easier for me.

Thanks a lot.

Hi Matt

I've been using that book myself. If I may, I'd suggest that you learn speaking reading and writing at the same time. I think trying to isolate reading and writing without speaking may lead to problems.

Anyway I'm not sure how you'd do that, if you're reading something, doesn't it 'speak' to you in your head? Don't you need to speak the things you read?

Just curious

[KunMatt]

Hi Matt

I've been using that book myself. If I may, I'd suggest that you learn speaking reading and writing at the same time. I think trying to isolate reading and writing without speaking may lead to problems.

Anyway I'm not sure how you'd do that, if you're reading something, doesn't it 'speak' to you in your head? Don't you need to speak the things you read?

Just curious

Hey Biff,

I can already speak some of the basics just from spending time in Thailand. I tried hard to learn without a book when I was in Isaan with my GF's family for a couple of months so my vocab covers a few different aspects. Now I am just figuring out how to write the words I already know and trying to find systems and rules in Thai script from that, it's not been as easy as I'd like (the silent consonants really drive me mad, not as much as words which don't look anything much like they sound, เกาะ for example - how is that "Koh"?? Looks more like "Gaw")

When I get back to Thailand I will either start lessons or have my gf go through the speaking exercises with me as I figure just trying to learn how to say new words by myself will probably encourage me to pick up bad habits at this stage.

All I really wanted to do now before I got back to Thailand was learn the Thai alphabet and as much Thai script as I could. Hopefully after being able to read and write Thai fluently I will then move on to increasing my vocab quickly.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers.

Edited September 15, 2010 by UKMatt

[Delight]

Thank you very much for this. I am a beginner and try to learn to read and write Thai first before I move onto speaking it.

This looks like it will be very helpful for me and I will let you know how i get on with it.

I already know some Thai vocab from being in Thailand for a year or so, but for studying by myself when out of Thailand I have just started to use the book "Thai for beginners" by Benjawan Poomsan Becker but that is geared more towards learning how to speak Thai, so I have been try to pick out what was relevant for me as someone just trying to learn how to read and write. Not an ideal situation but I've been getting on ok with the most common consonants and vowels and forming easy sentances.

Your document looks like something that will make it much easier for me.

Thanks a lot.

Thanks for your response

Please tell me that you downloaded 3 files.The Charts alone are of no use.

You will be using the transliteration system employed by THAI for BEGINNERS

If you are capable of accurately speaking the vowels in that book ,just using the couple of pages that detail these-then u have my total admiration.

I only used that book for a couple of years for learning conversation. In those days learning Thai happened when there was nothing else to do.

I found a better book course. It has the title THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE. It is written by an American Farang (Aaron Handel).In my view only a Farang can see things from a Farang's point of view when it comes to language.

For conversation learning it is far superior than THAI for BEGINNERS The author translates the Thai words back into English.

With THAI for BEGINNERS they just teach phrases and sentences ' parrot'. -not 'word for word' translation as with THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE

If you want to learn to read and write then THAI for BEGINNERS is the answer.( That said the section for determining the tone in written Thai is extremely over complex .)

THAI for BEGINNERS has a useful dictionary section

THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE has no dictionary section -and so on

No Book has it all. Some books however I consider to be dreadful . Not the aforementioned 2

The problem is that if you have 2 books to refer to -you have 2 different transliteration system to learn.

I found that impossible.

It was for just all the fore going reasons that I came up with this vowel learning system . Initially I went to school and had one on one tuition. That was a failure.

The only items that are transliterated in transliteration systems are the vowels.

That is the confusing element between different systems . The consonants and the tone marks are 99% the same in all the systems.

If you effectivley learn the vowels then it is easy to read transliteration .,just refer to the adjacent Thai script for the vowels. It works in practice.

You do not have to learn the consonants.

I could never understand why transliteration doesn't comprise Western consonants,Thai vowels and Farang tone marks

it will for force students to learn the vowels and it will be a universal system .(Students only of course -its not going to work too well for street signs).

The only thing that you are missing is a native Thai speaker saying each individual vowel on mp3 .tracks

I purchased THAI for BEGINNERS CD -ROM. Then I 'lifted' the vowels and converted to mp3

Given my source ,I cannot put them into the public domain. They are very helpful.

The same Company now has a speaking version of English Thai dictionary. It is remarkable. I use it every day. A I- PHONE version will appear next year.

(The voice is that of the main author Benjawan Poomsan Becker.)

-For what its worth -I am convinced that the best way to learn Thai is to start with all the Thai words translated back into English

if you have a friend who wishes also learn ,then you can enhance your knowledge of the Structure of the Language without learning one word of Thai.

Just converse with each other in Thai translated back into English

For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?

Drug colour teeth

cloth wipe body

Drug bottle this equal what?

He kick Ball enter Door

House big colour green

You have offspring-How many person?

Comfort good,no?

Greeting good no?

If you can speak Thai you will immediately understand all the foregoing very simple words /statements

Just for fun reply with these back into English Grammar

[KunMatt]

Thanks for your response

Please tell me that you downloaded 3 files.The Charts alone are of no use.

You will be using the transliteration system employed by THAI for BEGINNERS

If you are capable of accurately speaking the vowels in that book ,just using the couple of pages that detail these-then u have my total admiration.

I only used that book for a couple of years for learning conversation. In those days learning Thai happened when there was nothing else to do.

I found a better book course. It has the title THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE. It is written by an American Farang (Aaron Handel).In my view only a Farang can see things from a Farang's point of view when it comes to language.

For conversation learning it is far superior than THAI for BEGINNERS The author translates the Thai words back into English.

With THAI for BEGINNERS they just teach phrases and sentences ' parrot'. -not 'word for word' translation as with THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE

If you want to learn to read and write then THAI for BEGINNERS is the answer.( That said the section for determining the tone in written Thai is extremely over complex .)

THAI for BEGINNERS has a useful dictionary section

THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE has no dictionary section -and so on

No Book has it all. Some books however I consider to be dreadful . Not the aforementioned 2

The problem is that if you have 2 books to refer to -you have 2 different transliteration system to learn.

I found that impossible.

It was for just all the fore going reasons that I came up with this vowel learning system . Initially I went to school and had one on one tuition. That was a failure.

The only items that are transliterated in transliteration systems are the vowels.

That is the confusing element between different systems . The consonants and the tone marks are 99% the same in all the systems.

If you effectivley learn the vowels then it is easy to read transliteration .,just refer to the adjacent Thai script for the vowels. It works in practice.

You do not have to learn the consonants.

I could never understand why transliteration doesn't comprise Western consonants,Thai vowels and Farang tone marks

it will for force students to learn the vowels and it will be a universal system .(Students only of course -its not going to work too well for street signs).

The only thing that you are missing is a native Thai speaker saying each individual vowel on mp3 .tracks

I purchased THAI for BEGINNERS CD -ROM. Then I 'lifted' the vowels and converted to mp3

Given my source ,I cannot put them into the public domain. They are very helpful.

The same Company now has a speaking version of English Thai dictionary. It is remarkable. I use it every day. A I- PHONE version will appear next year.

(The voice is that of the main author Benjawan Poomsan Becker.)

-For what its worth -I am convinced that the best way to learn Thai is to start with all the Thai words translated back into English

Thanks for the suggestions. I did get the CD with "Thai for Beginners", I ripped it to my computer and I'm trying to re-arrange it so it is more helpful for understanding the vowels and consonants.

At the moment I guess I'm at the point where I end up with more questions than answers after trying to study. And then the next day something will click which will in turn lead to even more questions!

I don't, for instance, presently understand why there are several consonants for the same sound, i.e. ค ฅ ข ฃ ฆ for "k" or ซ ศ ษ ส for "s". This makes it very difficult for me to write a Thai word I know how to say in Thai script as I can't yet figure out which "k" or "s" to use. Perhaps there are some consonant rules depending of the tone or the vowel, but I haven't got that far yet.

High, Middle and Low consonants, live and dead syllables, stop/sonarant/final consonants - I've got a really long way to go and it's all very complicated at this point for me!! I hope that I look back on this post of mine in many months and find it humorous that I was so far behind of where I end up. Hopefully.

I've only put a few hours of real study into this so far so I probably shouldn't be asking for any advice until I manage to do some of the hard work myself but I will definitely use your vowel sheet and document for guidance and report back how I got on with it.

Thanks again.

[Delight]

Thanks for your response

Please tell me that you downloaded 3 files.The Charts alone are of no use.

You will be using the transliteration system employed by THAI for BEGINNERS

If you are capable of accurately speaking the vowels in that book ,just using the couple of pages that detail these-then u have my total admiration.

I only used that book for a couple of years for learning conversation. In those days learning Thai happened when there was nothing else to do.

I found a better book course. It has the title THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE. It is written by an American Farang (Aaron Handel).In my view only a Farang can see things from a Farang's point of view when it comes to language.

For conversation learning it is far superior than THAI for BEGINNERS The author translates the Thai words back into English.

With THAI for BEGINNERS they just teach phrases and sentences ' parrot'. -not 'word for word' translation as with THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE

If you want to learn to read and write then THAI for BEGINNERS is the answer.( That said the section for determining the tone in written Thai is extremely over complex .)

THAI for BEGINNERS has a useful dictionary section

THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE has no dictionary section -and so on

No Book has it all. Some books however I consider to be dreadful . Not the aforementioned 2

The problem is that if you have 2 books to refer to -you have 2 different transliteration system to learn.

I found that impossible.

It was for just all the fore going reasons that I came up with this vowel learning system . Initially I went to school and had one on one tuition. That was a failure.

The only items that are transliterated in transliteration systems are the vowels.

That is the confusing element between different systems . The consonants and the tone marks are 99% the same in all the systems.

If you effectivley learn the vowels then it is easy to read transliteration .,just refer to the adjacent Thai script for the vowels. It works in practice.

You do not have to learn the consonants.

I could never understand why transliteration doesn't comprise Western consonants,Thai vowels and Farang tone marks

it will for force students to learn the vowels and it will be a universal system .(Students only of course -its not going to work too well for street signs).

The only thing that you are missing is a native Thai speaker saying each individual vowel on mp3 .tracks

I purchased THAI for BEGINNERS CD -ROM. Then I 'lifted' the vowels and converted to mp3

Given my source ,I cannot put them into the public domain. They are very helpful.

The same Company now has a speaking version of English Thai dictionary. It is remarkable. I use it every day. A I- PHONE version will appear next year.

(The voice is that of the main author Benjawan Poomsan Becker.)

-For what its worth -I am convinced that the best way to learn Thai is to start with all the Thai words translated back into English

Thanks for the suggestions. I did get the CD with "Thai for Beginners", I ripped it to my computer and I'm trying to re-arrange it so it is more helpful for understanding the vowels and consonants.

At the moment I guess I'm at the point where I end up with more questions than answers after trying to study. And then the next day something will click which will in turn lead to even more questions!

I don't, for instance, presently understand why there are several consonants for the same sound, i.e. ค ฅ ข ฃ ฆ for "k" or ซ ศ ษ ส for "s". This makes it very difficult for me to write a Thai word I know how to say in Thai script as I can't yet figure out which "k" or "s" to use. Perhaps there are some consonant rules depending of the tone or the vowel, but I haven't got that far yet.

High, Middle and Low consonants, live and dead syllables, stop/sonarant/final consonants - I've got a really long way to go and it's all very complicated at this point for me!! I hope that I look back on this post of mine in many months and find it humorous that I was so far behind of where I end up. Hopefully.

I've only put a few hours of real study into this so far so I probably shouldn't be asking for any advice until I manage to do some of the hard work myself but I will definitely use your vowel sheet and document for guidance and report back how I got on with it.

Thanks again.

Hello

The Vowel sounds are on the CD ROM -not the CD,s that came with your book. TFB produce a CD ROM version of the book course TFB i. If you want to spend a bit of money ,I recommend the CD-ROM

As far as the consonants are concerned ie -Letter T x 6,Letter S x 4 .etc This has 2 functions . One ,as you say in in relation to TONE RULES.The 2nd purpose is to distinguish one word from another when written. Many Thai words sound the same.

Its up to you,but I would not recommend that you attempt to learn the consonants at this stage. It's a very big project.

Suggest that you just learn the vowels and use the Regular Consonants /Farang tone Marks.

Do not attempt to learn the TONE rules using TFB. They talk about DEAD consonants and LIVE consonants. I never could get my brain around those concepts.

I have 2 simple charts that I designed which explain all you need to know

Good luck

[bifftastic]

Thanks for your response

Please tell me that you downloaded 3 files.The Charts alone are of no use.

You will be using the transliteration system employed by THAI for BEGINNERS

If you are capable of accurately speaking the vowels in that book ,just using the couple of pages that detail these-then u have my total admiration.

I only used that book for a couple of years for learning conversation. In those days learning Thai happened when there was nothing else to do.

I found a better book course. It has the title THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE. It is written by an American Farang (Aaron Handel).In my view only a Farang can see things from a Farang's point of view when it comes to language.

For conversation learning it is far superior than THAI for BEGINNERS The author translates the Thai words back into English.

With THAI for BEGINNERS they just teach phrases and sentences ' parrot'. -not 'word for word' translation as with THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE

If you want to learn to read and write then THAI for BEGINNERS is the answer.( That said the section for determining the tone in written Thai is extremely over complex .)

THAI for BEGINNERS has a useful dictionary section

THE THAI LANGUAGE COURSE has no dictionary section -and so on

No Book has it all. Some books however I consider to be dreadful . Not the aforementioned 2

The problem is that if you have 2 books to refer to -you have 2 different transliteration system to learn.

I found that impossible.

It was for just all the fore going reasons that I came up with this vowel learning system . Initially I went to school and had one on one tuition. That was a failure.

The only items that are transliterated in transliteration systems are the vowels.

That is the confusing element between different systems . The consonants and the tone marks are 99% the same in all the systems.

If you effectivley learn the vowels then it is easy to read transliteration .,just refer to the adjacent Thai script for the vowels. It works in practice.

You do not have to learn the consonants.

I could never understand why transliteration doesn't comprise Western consonants,Thai vowels and Farang tone marks

it will for force students to learn the vowels and it will be a universal system .(Students only of course -its not going to work too well for street signs).

The only thing that you are missing is a native Thai speaker saying each individual vowel on mp3 .tracks

I purchased THAI for BEGINNERS CD -ROM. Then I 'lifted' the vowels and converted to mp3

Given my source ,I cannot put them into the public domain. They are very helpful.

The same Company now has a speaking version of English Thai dictionary. It is remarkable. I use it every day. A I- PHONE version will appear next year.

(The voice is that of the main author Benjawan Poomsan Becker.)

-For what its worth -I am convinced that the best way to learn Thai is to start with all the Thai words translated back into English

Thanks for the suggestions. I did get the CD with "Thai for Beginners", I ripped it to my computer and I'm trying to re-arrange it so it is more helpful for understanding the vowels and consonants.

At the moment I guess I'm at the point where I end up with more questions than answers after trying to study. And then the next day something will click which will in turn lead to even more questions!

I don't, for instance, presently understand why there are several consonants for the same sound, i.e. ค ฅ ข ฃ ฆ for "k" or ซ ศ ษ ส for "s". This makes it very difficult for me to write a Thai word I know how to say in Thai script as I can't yet figure out which "k" or "s" to use. Perhaps there are some consonant rules depending of the tone or the vowel, but I haven't got that far yet.

High, Middle and Low consonants, live and dead syllables, stop/sonarant/final consonants - I've got a really long way to go and it's all very complicated at this point for me!! I hope that I look back on this post of mine in many months and find it humorous that I was so far behind of where I end up. Hopefully.

I've only put a few hours of real study into this so far so I probably shouldn't be asking for any advice until I manage to do some of the hard work myself but I will definitely use your vowel sheet and document for guidance and report back how I got on with it.

Thanks again.

Matt, I'm at the same stage, not knowing which consonant to use if I want to write a word. At the moment I'm just trying to get my head around reading. Some very very tentative steps towards writing, but I check everything in Thai2English or somewhere like that before I'll put it 'out there' for anyone to see!

The different consonants with similar sounds allow the word to have a different tone, also some of them are from sanskrit roots and, well it all gets complicated! bt it's the sme in English too, like 'here' and 'hear' 'read' and 'read' (reed and red) 'psychology' 'knock' 'physical' etc. etc. vowel combinations that look the same but sound different. Some words you can spell out in your head and some you just have to learn to see as a whole.

Happy to hear that someone else is as confused as me I do get the odd moment of clarity which keeps me going though

[KunMatt]

Hello

The Vowel sounds are on the CD ROM -not the CD,s that came with your book. TFB produce a CD ROM version of the book course TFB i. If you want to spend a bit of money ,I recommend the CD-ROM

As far as the consonants are concerned ie -Letter T x 6,Letter S x 4 .etc This has 2 functions . One ,as you say in in relation to TONE RULES.The 2nd purpose is to distinguish one word from another when written. Many Thai words sound the same.

Its up to you,but I would not recommend that you attempt to learn the consonants at this stage. It's a very big project.

Suggest that you just learn the vowels and use the Regular Consonants /Farang tone Marks.

Do not attempt to learn the TONE rules using TFB. They talk about DEAD consonants and LIVE consonants. I never could get my brain around those concepts.

I have 2 simple charts that I designed which explain all you need to know

Good luck

Yeah, the concept of DEAD and LIVE consonants was too complicated for me to even look at at this stage. I'm glad you didn't need to use it!

I downloaded the Trial of thai2english.com last night and will probably buy the license when the trial expires as this looks like a really helpful piece of software, especially for Thai script/grammar and pronounciation.

My next study session will be using your doc and charts tonight. I will give feedback in here.

Thanks again for all the guidance.

[DavidHouston]

"For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?"

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in Thai?

Thanks.

[bifftastic]

Hi Matt

I've been using that book myself. If I may, I'd suggest that you learn speaking reading and writing at the same time. I think trying to isolate reading and writing without speaking may lead to problems.

Anyway I'm not sure how you'd do that, if you're reading something, doesn't it 'speak' to you in your head? Don't you need to speak the things you read?

Just curious

Hey Biff,

I can already speak some of the basics just from spending time in Thailand. I tried hard to learn without a book when I was in Isaan with my GF's family for a couple of months so my vocab covers a few different aspects. Now I am just figuring out how to write the words I already know and trying to find systems and rules in Thai script from that, it's not been as easy as I'd like (the silent consonants really drive me mad, not as much as words which don't look anything much like they sound, เกาะ for example - how is that "Koh"?? Looks more like "Gaw")

When I get back to Thailand I will either start lessons or have my gf go through the speaking exercises with me as I figure just trying to learn how to say new words by myself will probably encourage me to pick up bad habits at this stage.

All I really wanted to do now before I got back to Thailand was learn the Thai alphabet and as much Thai script as I could. Hopefully after being able to read and write Thai fluently I will then move on to increasing my vocab quickly.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers.

Ah ok, that makes much more sense now I'm struggling with the unwritten vowels myself. Yes I agree เกาะ doesn't look like 'Koh' but I think the transliteration of 'koh' itself is a bit misleading, I've heard it pronounced more like 'goh' but very short and clipped at the end, ms Tastic has given up and just says "samui" or "lanta" "because you ear not work good!"

I've stuck a couple of videos on my phone, tried to upload them here but got a "you aren't permitted to upload this kind of file" message They're from Langhub.com and one is consonants (basically goes through the alphabet showing the symbols in Thai, transliteration underneath and a Thai voice speaking them) and the other is vowels. I found them on youtube

downloaded them and put them on my phone.

The other thing I do is try and get into the language forum on here as much as I can, I find the script a little small but I do a lot of copy/pasting from here into thai2english.com so i can see the letters better and get some meanings too

I hope some of this may help you.

Biff

[bhoydy]

"For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?"

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in Thai?

Thanks.

I think the meaning is supposed to be ขอถุงได้ไหม with the poster getting mixed up with ไหม and ไม่

Edited September 16, 2010 by bhoydy

[Delight]

"For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?"

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in Thai?

Thanks.

Hello David

I think your Q should be :

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in English.

The Answer is ''Can I request a Bag' or simply ''Can I have a bag''

If a Thai asks that question,then the literal translation of the words that will be used is :

"request bag can no"

The 'No 'is interrogative' ie it is used to interrogate(in the nicest possible sense.)

It changes the statement ''Request Bag Can '' into a question

''Request Bag Can ' means ''-You can request a bag '' in English

Add the ''NO'' and it becomes a Question

Remember the Thai language is a very old language

How old? -I do not know

I understand that the writing system was developed around 1283

The system It has not changed much since then.

That tells me that the Thai language has not changed in overall terms since then.

The English language-as we know it- simply did not exist in 1283

From a grammatical point of view English is sophisticated

The Thai language is simple.

Remember Thailand did not get invaded or have religious 'schism's

That meant the Thai language has remained largely unchanged.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Delight