Sex And Thailand

[bakachan]

Am I right in thinking this forum has a few thousand members?

That would make many not all, most or even a majority!

I noticed a certain ammount of innuendo in some of the other posts so I had my say

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You sound young and idealistic. Cheer up, you'll get over it

[Khutan]

Don't most men want to marry younger women, especially old ones?

Of course they can't in their own country.

I certainly couldn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I married a younger woman from the west, and my divorce cost me just about the national debt.

Even if I accepted every request from my family in Issan, it would not go near whay my ex did me for.

Uncle Paul; I don't totally agree with what you said, but I understand why people come here for a "Special" holiday.

I was asked in the politically-correct Australia "How much did you pay for her" and "Did she come in the post". This is the same country that has a National Capital (Canberra) that has more prostitutes per head of population than anywhere else in the world - by a long way.

So in essence, it you want to go to a big "Knocking Shop" go to Canberra.

[uncle paul]

Am I right in thinking this forum has a few thousand members?

That would make many not all, most or even a majority!

I noticed a certain ammount of innuendo in some of the other posts so I had my say

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You sound young and idealistic. Cheer up, you'll get over it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

young and idealistic : if only

i have absolutely no problem with people having thai wives, gf's or bf after all i have one ( not of each ). it is a natural thing to want that. i suppose its the cheap charlie thing again!

i really dont like the sex tourism side of things being transplanted to all thai women. i must admit the morons that you often see in pattaya dont do much for the overall image of western men.

i also know many who have married bar girls and are happy and the women are good girls too; i also know some who have married nightmares but that is the luck of the draw wherever you are.

i have a couple of freinds in thailand who are bar girls: as long as they are honest i dont care what their background is as they just want to be loved and treated with respect. i have been told by one that i am her only real male friend & by that she means i never try to bed her, grope her or be generally dismissive of her background: we are just friends.

blah blah blah

[Jack Jones]

So in essence, it you want to go to a big "Knocking Shop" go to Canberra.

How much a flight from the Uk be?

[Vit42]

Just what is the “real Thailand”? As I understand it there’s no country that doesn’t have its share of prostitution and this is especially true of poorer countries. If you look back at the history of the rich/modern countries, you’ll see plenty of the same exploitation of women.[

Funny that you refer to the explotation of women. In some cases, yes this is true. But if you mean explotation of Thai women by Farang men, then I have to object. Very often the Farang man is being exploited by the Thai woman.

As for explotation of Thai women by Thai men, the yes, in many cases absolutely true.

True story

A friend of ours ( I will call her R) in our village has an elder brother (call him LB). R's husband had moved on to pastures new and she was working as best she could to do the best for her daughter....(edited out to shorten the post. vit42)

Thailand is infamous for its sex trade so I don’t necessarily blame all foreigners for having a certain perception of the country and its people. This I blame on the foreigners themselves who perpetuate the trade and the thai government for not cracking down on the trade. However, it is absolutely ignorant for a foreigner to take this perception and apply it to all thais and all of Thailand.

If there were no foreigners in Thailand the sex trade would not stop, it would continue as it has more or less since time began. Foreigners do not perpetuate the trade, but make it more lucrative and bring it to the attention of the rest of the world.

What would happen to the Thai economy if the sex trade with Farang was stopped? A lot of villages in Isaan appear to have next to no local economic structure and way of life could well be supported almost exclusively by cash flowing in via Pattaya.

I don't believe that the Thai economy as a whole would suffer much, but it would certainly have an impact on small local economies

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To your first point, i feel for your friend and agree his gf was being exploited by her bro. But exploitation is exploitation, whoever, wherever. If an adult thai bg chooses to trade sex for cash with an adult foreigner, i have no problem. Each get what they want whether or not it's exploitive. The line i draw is with the child sex trade, it's a definition of exploitation that no one should argue with.

To your second point, justifying sending young innocent isaan girls into the sex trade just to support the local economy doesn't make sense. Law of supply and demand at work i think. If the demand from higher paying foreigners was not there, then the supply of underaged girls into the trade would be just a trickle.

What are the alternatives for poor isaan families? If you're really interested follow this link to a recent PBS tv program, here in the u.s.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/thenewheroes/meet/sompop.html

[loong]

Intersting link Vit42.

Is good to see that someone is trying to do something.

To your second point, justifying sending young innocent isaan girls into the sex trade just to support the local economy doesn't make sense. Law of supply and demand at work i think. If the demand from higher paying foreigners was not there, then the supply of underaged girls into the trade would be just a trickle

I cannot see how you drew the conclusion that I was trying to justify sending young innocent isaan girls into the sex trade.

Nowhere did I mention underage girls.The majority of Adult prostitutes would still work in prostitution in the absence of Farang, but by working in Pattaya etc, they can earn more money.

Farang do not turn girls into prostitutes

[RamdomChances]

To your second point, justifying sending young innocent isaan girls into the sex trade just to support the local economy doesn't make sense. Law of supply and demand at work i think. If the demand from higher paying foreigners was not there, then the supply of underaged girls into the trade would be just a trickle.

What are the alternatives for poor isaan families? If you're really interested follow this link to a recent PBS tv program, here in the u.s.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/thenewheroes/meet/sompop.html

I dont really know why you linked thet article to "falangs" or Issan girls its talking about a totaly different problem and not even about Issarn but Northen Thailand.

The Development and Education Program for Daughters & Community Center (DEPDC) is an organization that offers education and full-time accommodation to at-risk children in order to prevent them from being trafficked into the sex industry or other types of forced labor. The program offers alternatives through education and life-skills training, as well as by strengthening families and communities.

Human sex trafficking is a worldwide problem, but it is especially tenacious in Thailand. Victims can be Thai women and children, ethnic hill tribe minorities, and women who migrate illegally from Burma, China and Laos.

Without citizenship or land tenure, the majority of northern Thailand's hill tribe people live in poverty without access to education, health care or legitimate work opportunities. Drug addiction and HIV/AIDS infection are also pervasive problems in the region.

Brothel owners have networks of agents who comb villages and seek out troubled families. The traffickers offer to exchange the families' young daughters for money. The problem consists of a complicated web involving relatives, village and city authorities, police, government officials and business people who all profit from the girls' labor.

The type of prostitution they are talking about you would be extremly unlikly to see in any of the "falang" areas as it's all aimed at the local or asian market.

The high profile stuff people see in the bars is just the "high end" tip of the iceberg. It's just so easy for forgien film crews to come here and shoot scenes of all the "falang" bars then cut to stuff about child and forced prostitution with out making any distinction to the fact that the vast majority of the girls in the "falang" areas are there by choice. Then again it would probably be very difficult to get permission here shotting a film about how Thai people are exploiting the industry and lets be honest it would'nt sell back in "falangland" either.

[kreon]

try antwerp and paris full with ho's if you know where to look, i hate to think how many eastern europe girls are exploited there

yet i love paris in autumn and thailand for the rest of the year, it's my choice if i wanna dope, drink or shag myself stupid, just learn to think to be open-minded, learn accept that people are different and let them do what they wanna do as long they don't hurt anyone and pay their ways, all this terrorist bullsh1t has gone to peoples heads

i for one always think that the people who complain the most are the jealous and unhappy ones

[Vit42]

I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

Your right, farangs don’t turn girls into prostitutes but certainly men in general had something to do with it. I’m a man but I just can’t fathom it after all, woman prostitutes are someone’s daughter, mother, or sister. Would I want my family to be exploited in such a way, NO! I respect all, especially those in situations that I know must be less fortunate that they’d choose prostitution as a means of sustenance. Girls aren’t just born prostitutes; they become prostitutes because some men demand it.

[kreon]

I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

Your right, farangs don’t turn girls into prostitutes but certainly men in general had something to do with it.  I’m a man but I just can’t fathom it after all, woman prostitutes are someone’s daughter, mother, or sister. Would I want my family to be exploited in such a way, NO! I respect all, especially those in situations that I know must be less fortunate that they’d choose prostitution as a means of sustenance. Girls aren’t just born prostitutes; they become prostitutes because some men demand it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

its like saying that marriage is the most expensive from of prostitution, that's where they are exploiting the man 80% of the time

i sincerily believe that most of the asian/thai woman like us because of the better security that we can offer them, just go to isaan and see it for yourself, if i was a looker i'll be off as a flash to bangkok and find a good farang

[RamdomChances]

I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

No how it usually works is some girl will come home with a rich "falang" boyfriend, or lots of gold, and the others will see this and think"Why am I working all day for 150 bhat?". As for the poor country girl forced by her familly into going to "Bangkok or Pattaya" I think its getting less and less most of them are there because they want more....house, car, gold, phone. The money that usually goes back to mama is for looking after the kids. We dont get many girls going down from around here but the one's I've known about were not really very hard up, a few in their late 20's early 30's with childern already, husband buggerd of that sort of thing. I know one guy here who is a Police Capitan good money, does'nt drink, smoke ect his wifes sister was married to a Falang, living in "falangland" . His wife decided she wanted some of that and left him and his 2 kids to go and work in Phuket. Last I herd she's on her 3rd falang in UK now keeps trading up for richer modles. Vit I'm not having a go at you but you dont really have any idea what you are talking about.

One of the big problems is that in Thailand once a woman has been married or has children, she has virtually no chance of finding a decent husband if the first leaves or dies, there is no child support from goverment or any chance of getting money out of the father if he does'nt want to pay. Sex education is minimal in schools and most Thai men wont wear a condom. Which mean as traditional values break down you are getting more tenage pregnancies, after which the choices for the girl are severly limited. All this stuff does'nt make good TV though

[kat]

Just what is the “real Thailand”? As I understand it there’s no country that doesn’t have its share of prostitution and this is especially true of poorer countries. If you look back at the history of the rich/modern countries, you’ll see plenty of the same exploitation of women.

True, all countries have their share of prostitution and abuse, especially developing countries with greater disparity and weaker enforcements.  However, the fact remains that Thailand is the biggest sex market in the world, only recently to fall behind Brazil because of the tourist-related impacts of the tsunami and the South.  And yes, if you look over the history of rich/modern nations, there is a history of exploitation of women, but their histories are not all the same, and this is even more so compared to Asia.

Still, I agree, what exists in Thailand today is very sad to see (specifically with children), and I am a Thai that has a lot of “regard” for my fellow Thais. Since my solution of shooting all the pedophiles and anyone who traffics children isn’t likely to be instituted, I have to settle for impacting the economics of Thailand to be a more modern country. Or maybe I should run for p.m. and load my pistol???

Uhm, if your regard for fellow Thais is as high as you imply, then you would confront the problem as it exists, which is that the child sex trafficking business is run primarily for and by Thai themselves, period.  The children that are reared or sold into the sex business are Thais, the people who rear and sell them are Thais, and the businessmen and customers who buy them are primarily and overwhlemingly, Thai.  If you want references, you can look over my former posts, or you can simply research mulitple sources including UNICEF and local Thai NGOS, or google for yourself.  Either way, this fact is well established, and out there.

Thailand is infamous for its sex trade so I don’t necessarily blame all foreigners for having a certain perception of the country and its people. This I blame on the foreigners themselves who perpetuate the trade and the thai government for not cracking down on the trade. However, it is absolutely ignorant for a foreigner to take this perception and apply it to all thais and all of Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you think the biggest flaw of the Thai governement is not cracking down on the trade, then I'm sorry to tell you that ignorance is not the exclusive domain of the white foreigner, or foreigners in general.

... To your second point, justifying sending young innocent isaan girls into the sex trade just to support the local economy doesn't make sense. Law of supply and demand at work i think. If the demand from higher paying foreigners was not there, then the supply of underaged girls into the trade would be just a trickle.

You are right, supply and demand are at work.  And there is no doubt, that foreign demand has increased the numbers of "supply", or women that are entering the commercial sex market for foreigners.  It has reached the point of becoming a new, unofficial job sector. 

But you are wrong about the supply of underaged girls.  The demand for young, underaged girls has always been greatest among Asians from Asia, and Thais in Thailand.  These girls are mostly trafficked from Southern China, Burma, and Laos, and the Thais are undocumented hilltribe girls.  Therefore, while I agree with your sentiment, your analysis of the situation is unfactual, and amounts to more finger-pointing to secondary effects.  You are not dealing with the cause, which is actually a combination of culture, economics, and politics.

What are the alternatives for poor isaan families? If you're really interested follow this link to a recent PBS tv program, here in the u.s.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/thenewheroes/meet/sompop.html

Unfortunately, Issan was cut out of the economic pie long before this current bout of rapid economic growth.  Culture and politics have made sure Issan remains that way, up until this day, with the daughters becoming the new crops of peasants made landless by .... let's just say "history".

And by the way, prostitution in Thailand has grown far beyond the domain of Issan these days, and is no longer exclusively a poverty issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[britmaveric]

RC - well put and I couldnt have said it any better. Most people look for the simple answers without really looking deep.

[Jockstar]

It is apparent that a many on here seem to view Thailand little more than a glorified cheap knocking shop & in fact have little regard for the real Thailand or people.

By exploiting an economic advantage they seem to revel in exploiting young girls/boys misfortune, where as at home they cant hold down a relationship; let alone get a partner ( i use that word very loosely).

Let me Explain something about the attitude of many back here in the UK

There was a Thai girl who worked at my friends restaurant to earn some extra pocket money whilst she finished her masters degree. When she finished and told the customers that she was going home to Thailand the majority asked the same question.

"Do you have to go and work in a bar now?"

Every time Thailand is shown on the  television there are always images of the  Pat Pong or Pattaya bar scene.

I was even asked on my wedding day here if i found my wife in a bar!!!

It p**ses me off that so many have such little regard for Thailand and its customs and in fact could never stay there if it was not for some young thing playing with their manhood because of  their economic superiority.

Get real people most of you are being taken for a ride: no money no honey!!!

how many of you have partners the same age as you or older?

END OF RANT

Ignore them mate. My missus is 33 and 2 years older than me. All that should matter to you is that you are happy. Your family will accept her if you love her. If anyone doesnt accept your missus. Then they are not real friends and you can tell them to fukc off, get out and see the real world.IMO. Unfortunately these are people who havent ventured further than Spain or Greece and work all year round and think that Turkey is adventurous. ###### them. End of rant.

[Harmonica]

Am I right in thinking this forum has a few thousand members?

That would make many not all, most or even a majority!

I noticed a certain ammount of innuendo in some of the other posts so I had my say

You sound young and idealistic. Cheer up, you'll get over it

young and idealistic : if only

i have a couple of freinds in thailand who are bar girls: as long as they are honest i dont care what their background is as they just want to be loved and treated with respect. i have been told by one that i am her only real male friend & by that she means i never try to bed her, grope her or be generally dismissive of her background: we are just friends.

blah blah blah

Hey Moses, change your whole latitude -- start by groping and fondling her.

[kat]

I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

No how it usually works is some girl will come home with a rich "falang" boyfriend, or lots of gold, and the others will see this and think"Why am I working all day for 150 bhat?". As for the poor country girl forced by her familly into going to "Bangkok or Pattaya" I think its getting less and less most of them are there because they want more....house, car, gold, phone. The money that usually goes back to mama is for looking after the kids. We dont get many girls going down from around here but the one's I've known about were not really very hard up, a few in their late 20's early 30's with childern already, husband buggerd of that sort of thing. I know one guy here who is a Police Capitan good money, does'nt drink, smoke ect his wifes sister was married to a Falang, living in "falangland" . His wife decided she wanted some of that and left him and his 2 kids to go and work in Phuket. Last I herd she's on her 3rd falang in UK now keeps trading up for richer modles. Vit I'm not having a go at you but you dont really have any idea what you are talking about.

One of the big problems is that in Thailand once a woman has been married or has children, she has virtually no chance of finding a decent husband if the first leaves or dies, there is no child support from goverment or any chance of getting money out of the father if he does'nt want to pay. Sex education is minimal in schools and most Thai men wont wear a condom. Which mean as traditional values break down you are getting more tenage pregnancies, after which the choices for the girl are severly limited. All this stuff does'nt make good TV though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vit, I'm not having a go at you either, but I have to agree with Random Chances that you "dont really have any idea what you are talking about". I think I understand your position as a possibly young, educated, urban person of color from the states, with a largley progressive outlook and politically correct view of things. There is nothing at all wrong with that perspective, until you actually challenge it and everything you think is correct by coming to a developing country or Thailand to live. If you truly think, you will soon find that your old paradigms are just not honest anymore.

Quote Vit:

"I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

Your right, farangs don’t turn girls into prostitutes but certainly men in general had something to do with it. I’m a man but I just can’t fathom it after all, woman prostitutes are someone’s daughter, mother, or sister. Would I want my family to be exploited in such a way, NO!"

Vit, now-a-days adult women don't wake up that way but plan it from girlhood. Furthermore, some adult women are left little choice after being left with children to feed and the burden of "making merit" as a good daughter. There is also the neverending, voracious issue of face and status.

And yes, I agree, both men AND women have something to do with it, and here in Thailand, it is very often the family, friends, or human smugglers.

[Vit42]

I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

No how it usually works is some girl will come home with a rich "falang" boyfriend, or lots of gold, and the others will see this and think"Why am I working all day for 150 bhat?". As for the poor country girl forced by her familly into going to "Bangkok or Pattaya" I think its getting less and less most of them are there because they want more....house, car, gold, phone. The money that usually goes back to mama is for looking after the kids. We dont get many girls going down from around here but the one's I've known about were not really very hard up, a few in their late 20's early 30's with childern already, husband buggerd of that sort of thing. I know one guy here who is a Police Capitan good money, does'nt drink, smoke ect his wifes sister was married to a Falang, living in "falangland" . His wife decided she wanted some of that and left him and his 2 kids to go and work in Phuket. Last I herd she's on her 3rd falang in UK now keeps trading up for richer modles. Vit I'm not having a go at you but you dont really have any idea what you are talking about.

One of the big problems is that in Thailand once a woman has been married or has children, she has virtually no chance of finding a decent husband if the first leaves or dies, there is no child support from goverment or any chance of getting money out of the father if he does'nt want to pay. Sex education is minimal in schools and most Thai men wont wear a condom. Which mean as traditional values break down you are getting more tenage pregnancies, after which the choices for the girl are severly limited. All this stuff does'nt make good TV though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vit, I'm not having a go at you either, but I have to agree with Random Chances that you "dont really have any idea what you are talking about". I think I understand your position as a possibly young, educated, urban person of color from the states, with a largley progressive outlook and politically correct view of things. There is nothing at all wrong with that perspective, until you actually challenge it and everything you think is correct by coming to a developing country or Thailand to live. If you truly think, you will soon find that your old paradigms are just not honest anymore.

Quote Vit:

"I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

Your right, farangs don’t turn girls into prostitutes but certainly men in general had something to do with it. I’m a man but I just can’t fathom it after all, woman prostitutes are someone’s daughter, mother, or sister. Would I want my family to be exploited in such a way, NO!"

Vit, now-a-days adult women don't wake up that way but plan it from girlhood. Furthermore, some adult women are left little choice after being left with children to feed and the burden of "making merit" as a good daughter. There is also the neverending, voracious issue of face and status.

And yes, I agree, both men AND women have something to do with it, and here in Thailand, it is very often the family, friends, or human smugglers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Surely you must be joking if you think the majority of thai prostitutes become prostitutes because they want to be rich and go to, as you put it, farangland? There’s a difference between gold diggers and prostitutes, although a prostitute may also be identified as a gold digger. The prostitutes you see working in the go-go bars are not usually there by choice, at least when they first started. The gold diggers that keep “trading up” are a different lot, many of whom can be found anywhere in the world.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with anyone wanting a better life for themselves and I don’t blame a thai women for wanting more, especially if they are poor. If an adult chooses to prostitute herself as the means for upward mobility, who am I to judge. I just don’t think that prostitution is the only viable, available or respectable avenue for success. As for the farangs that frequent the prostitutes and sometimes fall in love, I have no ill feelings towards them either. We all reap what we sow.

Do I have an idea what I’m talking about? Maybe or maybe not. I’m just a poor upcountry thai boy who’s made his way in the world, earning an honest wage. I visit Thailand every year to see family and friends, some poor and some rich. I know prostitutes and I’m even friend’s with children of former prostitutes married to Americans. I visit thai orphanages and contribute what I can to help them. This is what i choose to sow.

[Tokker]

Uncle Paul, I couldn't agree more but maybe you should consider changing your user name. A guy living in Thailand calling himself "Uncle" has an edgy feeling to it. :-) LOL

[loong]

Uncle Paul, I couldn't agree more but maybe you should consider changing your user name. A guy living in Thailand calling himself "Uncle" has an edgy feeling to it. :-) LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean?

I am known by everyone in the village as Loong ( Uncle) so what does that make me?

[uncle paul]

Uncle Paul, I couldn't agree more but maybe you should consider changing your user name. A guy living in Thailand calling himself "Uncle" has an edgy feeling to it. :-) LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

at present im only in Thailand four months a year nearly everyone i know calls me uncle (lung or loong) paul or na paul or is it baul or something similar lol

Edited July 20, 2005 by uncle paul

[kat]

Surely you must be joking if you think the majority of thai prostitutes become prostitutes because they want to be rich and go to, as you put it, farangland? There’s a difference between gold diggers and prostitutes, although a prostitute may also be identified as a gold digger. The prostitutes you see working in the go-go bars are not usually there by choice, at least when they first started. The gold diggers that keep “trading up” are a different lot, many of whom can be found anywhere in the world.

No, I really don't think it's a joke.  I think it is a growing reality here in Thailand, and a product of screwed-up cultural/gender politics.  Yes, of course, gold diggers exist everywhere, just as something of everything exists everywhere.  But we are not talking about similarities but differences and major cultural phenemenoms, which no one can deny, exists to a larger degree here in Thailand.  Instead of shooting the messenger, why don't you instead ask why it is that way.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with anyone wanting a better life for themselves and I don’t blame a thai women for wanting more, especially if they are poor. If an adult chooses to prostitute herself as the means for upward mobility, who am I to judge. I just don’t think that prostitution is the only viable, available or respectable avenue for success. As for the farangs that frequent the prostitutes and sometimes fall in love, I have no ill feelings towards them either. We all reap what we sow.

Agreed.  There are no ill feelings toward anyone, but that should include people who are not afraid to call a spade, a spade.

Do I have an idea what I’m talking about? Maybe or maybe not. I’m just a poor upcountry thai boy who’s made his way in the world, earning an honest wage. I visit Thailand every year to see family and friends, some poor and some rich. I know prostitutes and I’m even friend’s with children of former prostitutes married to Americans. I visit thai orphanages and contribute what I can to help them. This is what i choose to sow.

I'm right up there with you on all the points, except that I'm not an upcountry Thai boy.  I also live here and have conducted research on this issue for more than 2 years now.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb, Vit.  Something tells me that your primary identity is not as an "upcountry Thai boy", but as an American educated boy with roots in upcountry.  Perhaps you left very young.  Either way, I don't feel you are being completely honest either with us or yourself.

And I'm not saying this to insult.  I'm only saying this because I'd like to have an honest dialogue with you, and also because I recognize some of you in myself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(By the way, couldn't edit my earlier post. I meant unfounded instead of unfactual; sorry).

Edited July 20, 2005 by kat

[RamdomChances]

Surely you must be joking if you think the majority of thai prostitutes become prostitutes because they want to be rich and go to, as you put it, farangland? There’s a difference between gold diggers and prostitutes, although a prostitute may also be identified as a gold digger. The prostitutes you see working in the go-go bars are not usually there by choice, at least when they first started. The gold diggers that keep “trading up” are a different lot, many of whom can be found anywhere in the world.

I said the majority of the girls you see working the "falang" bars as you were specificaly talking about .

I don’t think an adult woman wakes up one day and says to her family “today I’m heading into the Bangkok or Pattaya and becoming a prostitute because I love my family and want to support them by bringing in more wages”! The implication is that most prostitutes started in the trade while they were underage and vulnerable for exploitation.

And no I'm not joking, all the instances I was refering to the women have gone to one of the falang areas and worked as prostitutes while looking for husbands/boyfriends. You seem to be mixed up between the women you see in the tourist areas and the majority of prostitutes in Thailand who cater for the Thai market and are organised and controlled by Thai people, notice I did not say Thai prostitutes as many of the women in this side of the of the industry are Burmese, Loa, Hill tribes people who are very vunrable to be being taken advantage of. This may well be difficult for you to accept, it does not make it less true.

Do I have an idea what I’m talking about? Maybe or maybe not. I’m just a poor upcountry thai boy who’s made his way in the world, earning an honest wage. I visit Thailand every year to see family and friends, some poor and some rich. I know prostitutes and I’m even friend’s with children of former prostitutes married to Americans. I visit thai orphanages and contribute what I can to help them. This is what i choose to sow.

Well I'm not an "upcountry" Thai but I have lived in an "Upcountry" rural thai enviroment for the last 5 years and live speak and work with Thais every day, I just say it as I see it. Edited July 20, 2005 by RamdomChances

[meom]

It is apparent that a many on here seem to view Thailand little more than a glorified cheap knocking shop & in fact have little regard for the real Thailand or people.

Thais in general have less regard for the real Thailand or it's people and as another poster mentioned prostitution was rife even before us falang arrived.

BTW my missus is 6 yrs older than me. Obviously she lied about her age when we first met, in a who.rehouse I might add

Just what is the “real Thailand”? As I understand it there’s no country that doesn’t have its share of prostitution and this is especially true of poorer countries. If you look back at the history of the rich/modern countries, you’ll see plenty of the same exploitation of women.

No idea what is the "real Thailand" but I assume Paul was referring to the Thailand and it's people that exist outside of the sex-industry.

Now there are plenty of good things to say about Thailand and it's people but there is also plenty of negative things mostly caused by Thais themselves such as drug abuse, crime, corruption, spoiling of nature, pollution etc. etc.

Most tourist falang have not much to do with above things and therefore it's my opinion that thais have less regard for thailand

[Nam Kao]

My wife and i go to have some paperwork done (boon docks) and we get

to this place and find it will take many hours to complete. I tell my wife "me go

find beer Chang, falang lon, you stay here". So i walk out and and spy a soup moo

type place and think "Maybe chang stay ti-noon?". My quest for joy juice is

met with a 40ish soup moo lady who looks quite surprized as no falangs come

here. Yes I see a cooler, i approach slowly and low and befold, CHANG , SINGHA

and a couple brands I never seen before. I check my watch, its 10:30AM. So

now I am thnking "Hmmm Well I am a falang, and in my home country its 10:30PM

Nighttime, plus I am trying to fit in with the culture here where people are drunk

24/7, EUREKA ! I AM JUSTIFIED! YES I CAN DRINK". So I grab a Chang and sit down.

No one is there. Then i hear something, is it a bee nest?, is it the hells angels?

Or could this be the remanents of the Thunderdome gang that tried to kill Mad Max!!??

No its 30 police on motorcys converging on my new found sanctuary saving me from the torturous Thai beaurocracy! They swarm

in in their official brown suits. As they dismount their rides they look at me

shocked, in my mind i am thinking, finish this beer quickly before they throw

the cuffs on me. They approach slowly and like a dog sniffing another dog they

circle me. I give a my normal response when i meet new thai police -

"YA YING FALANG!". They laugh and orders are barked off to the soup moo

lady and I grab a fresh brew. I relax a bit as they stop staring at me.

Suddenly a new face emerges, its the soup moos daughter serving the

soup moos, she comes closer and looks at me, she is mint, shy, perfect. I need a drool bucket and quick!.

Absolutely beautiful, maybe 18. I try not to stare at her but i cannot help it. Time

for more chang. SO the police finish eating and now its "Question the Falang Time".

One cop who spoke a little english is nominated to squeeze what info he can

out of me to add to their laundry list of rumors, heresay and general story

telling. Where you come from? I say America. They all chatter amongst

themselves for a bit , then next question, and so on and so on. Then like a

stoke of luck the girl comes and sits down right across from me, I drink in

the girls beauty as i empty another Chang. More chattering then this female

police lady (not too bad looking, i'd say a 10 in my home country but maybe

a 4 in LOS) stands up and the guy cop cop asks "Do you think this lady

so-e-mak?" pointing to police lady. I think for for about 10 seconds and

point to the young girl and shout "She so-e-mak!!" Everyone erupts in this

huge laughter. Then more chattering. The cop asks "Think she could go Pattaya

find falang to marry?".

So i guess this answers the question

Edited July 20, 2005 by Nam Kao

[Vit42]

No, I really don't think it's a joke.  I think it is a growing reality here in Thailand, and a product of screwed-up cultural/gender politics.  Yes, of course, gold diggers exist everywhere, just as something of everything exists everywhere.  But we are not talking about similarities but differences and major cultural phenemenoms, which no one can deny, exists to a larger degree here in Thailand.  Instead of shooting the messenger, why don't you instead ask why it is that way.

Agreed.  There are no ill feelings toward anyone, but that should include people who are not afraid to call a spade, a spade.

I'm right up there with you on all the points, except that I'm not an upcountry Thai boy.  I also live here and have conducted research on this issue for more than 2 years now.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb, Vit.  Something tells me that your primary identity is not as an "upcountry Thai boy", but as an American educated boy with roots in upcountry.  Perhaps you left very young.  Either way, I don't feel you are being completely honest either with us or yourself.

And I'm not saying this to insult.  I'm only saying this because I'd like to have an honest dialogue with you, and also because I recognize some of you in myself.

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(By the way, couldn't edit my earlier post. I meant unfounded instead of unfactual; sorry).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kat, you used the “conducted research” card before in another post, please verify where this research is published or when and where it will be published, as well as who’s sponsoring your research. What exactly is the topic of your research and how exactly does it seemingly redefine or become the de facto standard for the assessment of thai culture? This is not to “shoot the messenger” but to validate that the message is authentic, especially when you start telling me that thai women plan to become prostitutes from “girlhood”. There’s tons of research out there but much of it is biased, distorted, and sometimes even meant for deception, just ask G. Bush.

Be careful out there on your limb because it’s very presumptuous of you to think you know someone from their postings. Where am I not being honest? Are you accusing me of lying to support my points? If so, that would be insulting. I have no reason to lie, I am what I am and I do what I say I do, whether you believe me or not is up to you. As my thai wife tells me, I may be Americanized but my heart is still thai.

[britmaveric]

My gf tells me my heart is thai too!

Vit- I'll vouch for Kat any day lad.... I know who she works for and dare say she is a credible and wealthy source of information. Lighten up - you seem to easily rattled in my opinion.

Edited July 20, 2005 by britmaveric

[The_Other_Mac]

Excuse me for stepping in...

Surely you must be joking if you think the majority of thai prostitutes become prostitutes because they want to be rich and go to, as you put it, farangland?

No, she's not joking. In common with most Thais, few want to move permanently overseas, but most are prepared to go for a few years, just as people from all over the world will work in "difficult" countries like Saudi Arabia for a few years to save up. If you want to do some more careful research, you could do worse than investigating awareness of western divorce laws.

There’s a difference between gold diggers and prostitutes, although a prostitute may also be identified as a gold digger.

No. No there isn't. This is possibly the root of newcomers perceptions. Unlike in the west, every prostitute is in a position to pick up a "boyfriend" who will "rescue her" from her "degrading life". And by the way, none of them think of themselves as prostitutes. They are dancers or hostesses or waitresses.

The prostitutes you see working in the go-go bars are not usually there by choice, at least when they first started.

[sigh]Yes they are.

Okay, here's how it goes: young Isaan woman arrives in Bangkok, gets normal job in a shop earning 6,000 per month. In Bangkok you can't afford to live alone on that, so it's normal to share with room-mates. One room-mate has noticeably more money and shows off ability in English... explains she's working as a waitress in a bar, but she doesn't do any funny stuff. New girl asks her to get a job in the same place, paying 8k per month. This place also has dancers on stage. New girl find that dancers earn 15k per month... Next month someone at home has a big medical bill, new girl figures she can take off her top and wiggle about at the back... finds out that if she chats to a customer for 15 minutes and gets him to buy her an 80B coke, she earns 40B, easy money... One night a customer suggests they "go for a drink somewhere after"...

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with anyone wanting a better life for themselves and I don’t blame a thai women for wanting more, especially if they are poor. If an adult chooses to prostitute herself as the means for upward mobility, who am I to judge. I just don’t think that prostitution is the only viable, available or respectable avenue for success.

Of course it isn't the only one (and it's certainly not a respectable one). This is why we and Thais dislike the western media portraying Thailand as if it's all like that. But it doesn't make interesting tv to explain that some students work really hard at school, come to Bangkok, work in a normal, low-paying job while going to university in the evenings, get a first graduate job, work hard, stay late or study English or Japanese in the evenings to improve their career choices, and so on.

[thaibebop]

My gf tells me my heart is thai too!   

Vit- I'll vouch for Kat any day lad.... I know who she works for and dare say she is a credible and wealthy source of information. Lighten up - you seem to easily rattled in my opinion. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My wife calls me I-Baa.

I can't think of why Vit might be rattled, I mean it's only his people you're talking about. I really don't see why that would rattle any one.

Of course, so many here post assuming that all posters are white, yes. So, why would Vit be rattled when everyone here is discussing the land of his birth and his people like a Jerry Springer talk show. I am not even going to say anything about why anyone would become a prostitutes, it happens all over the world, but sitting around picking on the Thais and their sex trade problems just doesn't seem right to me. It doesn't matter why it happens, it shouldn't happen. We all know it has to do with money, people need money, and for us, who I can only assume have never been prostitutes, to try judge or speak like we know why or what it's like is out of line. Most of what I have read is nothing more than speculation anyway with no concrete evidence to back it up, it's just what white people think of Thai prostitutes.

So, I cant imagine why Vti might be "rattled". Mai ben rai, Vit.

Edited July 20, 2005 by thaibebop

[samran]

So in essence, it you want to go to a big "Knocking Shop" go to Canberra.

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Reminds me of a story of three of my mates who moved to Canberra and needed to furnish their house. They went down to Fyshwick which is known for its knockshops and whitegoods.

Parking their car, they walked into what they though was the side entrance of the whitegoods store, and ended up in a strolling into a brothel which shared the building!

[kat]

Kat, you used the “conducted research” card before in another post, please verify where this research is published or when and where it will be published, as well as who’s sponsoring your research.

It's not a card Vit, but an ongoing endeavor.  I've done research for others in the past, but this research is for myself.  I'm the sponsor of my own research.  If or when it gets published, I'll be sure to let you know.  But that was never my primary aim.  Sometimes things are worth knowing simply because you care to know enough.  

What exactly is the topic of your research and how exactly does it seemingly redefine or become the de facto standard for the assessment of thai culture?

Where did I offer the de facto assessment of Thai culture?  Understanding and acknowledging is a matter of fact, not appropriation or distortion.  If you've got a problem with that, then I'm afraid that your problem is not with me but every historian who has written honestly about Thailand, including Thais.  You know, reinventing the wheel everytime wears me out, so please refer to my back posts in which I list and name books and references.  I will do it again if you promise to read them.

This is not to “shoot the messenger” but to validate that the message is authentic, especially when you start telling me that thai women plan to become prostitutes from “girlhood”. There’s tons of research out there but much of it is biased, distorted, and sometimes even meant for deception, just ask G. Bush.

Yes, but in this case I didn't ask George Bush.  What would be an "authentic" message, a message from a Thai?  Many will not talk to foreigners, which affects an already underreported situation.  But there is research conducted by Thais and foreigners alike, as well as major international organizations as I have previously stated.  As I said, you can backpost, google, or PM me at a later date.  I guarantee you it will be more substantive than your PBS link.

Be careful out there on your limb because it’s very presumptuous of you to think you know someone from their postings. Where am I not being honest? Are you accusing me of lying to support my points? If so, that would be insulting. I have no reason to lie, I am what I am and I do what I say I do, whether you believe me or not is up to you. As my thai wife tells me, I may be Americanized but my heart is still thai.

I thought I was already being careful by saying that I was out on a limb.  I don't purport to know you, only what you say on this forum.  I am not accusing you of lying to support your points.  I tried to make it perfectly clear that my intent was not insulting or condescending, but empathetic.  So be it if you want to read it as something else.

Also, if I recall correctly, I thought you stated on another thread that you were a Thai-American, but I'm too tired and lazy right now to find it.  I think it was in the farang women's section a few months ago. 

At any rate, perhaps I can now direct a few questions at you:  Are you an American citizen, how long have you been in the states and hold old were you when you arrived?

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