Sex And Thailand

[Harmonica]

i have a couple of freinds in thailand who are bar girls: as long as they are honest i dont care what their background is as they just want to be loved and treated with respect. i have been told by one that i am her only real male friend & by that she means i never try to bed her, grope her or be generally dismissive of her background: we are just friends.

blah blah blah

there's a whole lotta f*ckin goin on in LOS and you're not even groping her?

no harmonica we will not be friends and i sincerely hope that you catch something incurable to go with that incurable moronic attitude of yours

Don't be like that, Uncle Paul -- gropin, f*ckin, eatin, livin, dinin, drivin etc. -- same order of magnitude until some smartass comes along and complicates it!

[loong]

only if my dog's a cat...

So you think that your dog is a cat.....................

It isn't, you know

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Therefore......???

draw your own conclusion...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I already have

[ozzydom]

uncle paul, of course many farang are the way in which you describe in your opening post,you will see them every day in bars,massage places etc topping up their tank before embarking on a bit of horizontal exercise. If thats their cup of tea ,good luck to them.They are simply enjoying what LoS has to offer,that is their individual right.

But on the other hand,visit the Shopping centres,the restruants, the beaches,the lake on a Sunday and see the farang with his older/younger T/W and their children doing what families do everywhere

and enjoying LoS their way,that is their individual right.

At any one time I would quess there are more farang out in the countryside enjoying the Thai heritage and culture and appreciating it than there are squatting on a bar stool drooling over young ladies( or boys if thats your bag).

There is good and bad,black and white and all shades of grey in between

but thats life.Ours is not to reason why etc etc.

[thaibebop]

I think I'm gonna be sick.

Great. A bunch of you boys came to LOS with an itch to scratch and money to spend. The result, you "hooked up" with a hooker. Fine, I see no problem with this. However, the way in which many of you speak of your "hooking up" shows you have no respect for the women you hooked up with or any others that might be making money the same way. It's just faceless pussy to you, ain't it.

Now, I am happy you found someone to share your life with, but to assume that everyone else is like you and views all Thai women as prostitutes is childish and rude. Not only to the Thai people, but to those of us on the forum. Not every man here thinks with his junk, fellas.

I will say it again, I have NO problem with people marry hookers, but I would think that if these women that many of you are talking about, mean anyhting to you, you would speak with a little more respect when speaking of them or their people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After reading your post, I decided to read this thread again, from the beginning. And this thread has got quite long now.

Thaibebop - I suggest you do the same.

NOWHERE in this thread have I found that the posters view all Thai women as prostitutes.

The general consensus, however is that many people who have never been to Thailand often have this misconception.

Generally speaking , this has been a good thread with people airing their views sensibly. There are of course a few exceptions.

Please read the postings properly before ranting at forum members for no good reason

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't rant for no good reason.

I was speaking to the exceptions.

I was trying to be polite and let the exceptions figure it out for themselves. I start singling out people and it gets personal, sometimes I don't have a problem with that, today I thought I'd be a nice guy.

Dragonman, I was useing hooker for effect. I was trying to sound snide, guess I failed.

[stumonster]

people who get their experience and judgements from the television and movies are common the world over - som nam naa

If I accompany some one somewhere socially to advance (or not hinder) my career prospects ( whether it involves sex or not ) , if I get married or go out with some one whom I think will increase my percieved respectability , if I get married or go out with some one to cement business relationships - am I considered a prosti-hook - etc ??

people are very hung up because of their notions of love , sex , marrige etc etc. That some one else does not agree with them seems to get them riled up and is the cause of many confrontations .

its my only life and I intend to live it .

[kat]

Hi:

I want to respond to some of the replies on this thread in full, but I'm sort of on a sojourn away from BKK at the moment. If I appear to be glib as a result, it's not my intent but circumstance. The first half is mostly directed toward Vit:

... Something about research, it’s not fact. Far from it, especially when it comes to anthropological study of a current existence. Social research is not math or science where absolutes can be eventually quantified one way or another. It is a lot of bias and conjecture that can only be relatively correlated to the sample size and controls in your group. “Understanding and acknowledging is a matter of fact”, not so, it’s simply understanding and acknowledging, not fact.

No, actually for me understanding AND acknowledging is a matter of fact.  What I mean is that I need to fully understand something before I evaluate a situation or analysis.  Fully understanding something to me means examining the situation, topic, or hyposthesis from many different angles, including and accounting for my own bias.  I have based my comments on many different sources (published and unpublished, formal and informal), corroborations, observations and anecdotal information and interviews.  As I said earlier, I have mentioned and posted some of my sources on earlier posts.  I'll be happy to do so again, but just not at this time (away from home).  But I have pointed you in the direction to start dredging things up on your own. 

The problem in general, but especially in Thailand, is that there are no "official" statistics because they are not kept well, but also because no one wants to know the real numbers.  Asia is also a region in which even the underreporting of rape is a problem, because of a deeply entrenched cultural attitude of shame.  Therefore, you have to piece together a lot of information from other sources, including other statistics.  Also, as other posters have mentioned, there is a fluid definition of "prostitution" that is at odds.  This itself is worthy of a whole other topic for which I don't have time at the moment.  And by the way, not all good social research is conducted through samples and control groups, because in certain cases this could yield its own distortions, and is no guarantee, especially when you cannot rely on straight answers, or different definitions.  So do I claim to have "factual" information?  No, the point is that no one does, for good reason.  We are all examining major trends and observations.  I try to be responsible by also examing a large variety of research on the topic by both Thais and international researchers, individuals and major organizations who have been researching this issue for several years.  Any other questions?

I am a thai American, meaning I’m originally a thai citizen who has immigrated to the u.s. and become an American citizen. Is that somehow misleading? I arrived in the states when I was six and have been back to Thailand numerous times for stays as long as 1-6 months. Does this make me less qualified or you more qualified to comment about Thailand social norms?

No Vit, it doesn't make you or me more or less, only somewhat confirms my instinct about your perspective (young, educated, American, very young emigration, etc), which I commented on previously.  Which was not a judgement, only an observation and an instinct, both of which seem to be correct.  As I said, I empathize with you, whether you can believe it or not, because I understand your perspective very well.

By the way, you're in Boston.  Are you a student or an academic?  The last place I lived was in Boston before I came to Thailand.  Something tells me you're also an ivy league graduate or graduate-level professional.

Perhaps I should start my own personal research on American prostitutes and see whether or not they planned to become prostitutes from girlhood. Would this be more valid than a PBS report on the same topic? I think that PBS would be a more authentic source then little, unknown me.

Vit, perhaps you should.  But let me warn you:  one major similarity is that most sex workers universally have a history of sexual/social abuse.  Would you like to discuss this further regarding the Thai context?  If so, you'd better buckle your seatbelt - it's going to be a bumpy ride.  And yes, I can substantiate it, and have already done so on this forum.

And Vit, when I mention "girlhood" prostitutes, I'm talking about the trend that it is now become something of an unofficial job sector, and many girls have started considering prostitution and finding a foreign husband as something akin to a career path.  But unfortunately, this riles SOME foreign men here in Thailand and they start slinging personal insults; wonder why. 

EDIT:  One other thing, you seem to be making barbed insults that somehow I am "unknown" or "unpublished", which you don't really know.  Do you really make judgements this way or is it just a cheap shot?  Do you know the PBS documentarians of the program you watched?  What are their credentials?  Do you know any of the published, non-fiction authors that you read?  Have you read any published research on this topic?   Do you need a label or some sort of approved certification from somewhere else before you decide what is "authentic" or not?  If so, then you are possibly both easily impressed and easily misled, not to mention a poor debater.  No need to respond. 

Kat, I’d have serious reservation about the validity of any report that placed many of the burdens of prostitution on the shoulder’s of the women. Ask a battered wife here in the u.s. why she doesn’t leave her husband and you’ll often hear about how she thinks its her fault. You can conclude from this “report” that women chose to be battered but I think it’s not telling the truth. These women are so worn done by their abuse that it becomes a part of their reality. The reality is the abuser is to blame. How do you solve this problem… educate and support the women and help them find a better way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vit, I'd have "serious reservation about the validity of any report that placed many of the burdens of prostitution on the shoulder’s of the women" also. I don't think we disagree on principle, just on the details, which are unfortunately, hard to take. I'm genuinely sorry about that and have apologized although I have done nothing wrong except state what I have researched, corroborated, and thought alot about to be major factors and trends. And what I have stated here is just a smattering of how I view the situation. I belive that wage suppression, history, and the social/religous/cultural context is also fundamental. And yes, it is also about the differentials between a rapidly urbanizing region and the disparities between urban and rural - but that's not all of it; and blaming the foreigner is unfortunately not even close to it. And I don't state this because I have a desire to defend the white foreigner that comes here - far from it.

You don't have to preach to me about battered women because trust me, I know all about it - from many different sources. But I think at some point, when you examine an issue about oppression up close and personal, academically, intellectually, and emotionally, you still retain your core values, but it is no longer enough to hold these very precious viewpoints that all of oppression or development is solely about victimization; the world, culture, people, and the reality - whether you choose to call it fact, conjecture, research or bullshit - is actually more complicated. Don't blame or villify me simply because I choose to understand those spaces

My mother...  bless her heart...

She asked me how it was my wife escaped being sold into prostitution...

My mom meant well, and she knows my wife came from an extremely humble background. Living in a trully homeless family, sleeping on the ground etc.

Now, her mother has worked her way up, and is actually pretty wealthy. My wife, married a fellow (me) that is financially fit. 

But any how, I thought the question was a little weird, and the only explanation I have is that my wife's family are "Thai to the bone." Just because prositutes are accepted, it doesn't make prositution accpetable. Her family has way too much pride to ever go to that point. "Thai to the bone," they are. In some respects it is anoying, but in some ways, I guess that is what kept my wife away from a life of prostitution.

Now, we are a happy couple, with a beutiful baby boy....   Funny how life can be full of changes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What a great post. Congratulations on your beautiful baby boy. May he grow up to be a man who values a woman for who she is, and not for what she can do for him.

Thaibebop QUOTE:

"... Now how could you even think that I might careless.

I posted it shouldn't happen didn't I.

Easy dismissive explaintions?

I was not commenting on prostitution but peoples so called facts on prostitution. That is what is being dismissed.

Non-thinking?

I am asking you to think. To not try to "sum" up ones reasoning for selling sex with clever little research, that's Jerry Springer. That's not paying attention to reason. That's chicken little saying the sky is falling, and I have research to back it up.

I'll tell you what Kat. Research only brings you academic understanding. Try knowing your subjects pain and happiness. Think about the subjects not as subjects but as people, or better yet, go live their life, maybe you won't be so dismissive here.

It's not just you, my early post and this one is dicrected toward those who "sum" up something like this so easily. But I think the way in which you handle this topic shows that these people are easily dimissed in your mind, you seem to be a person who has become TOO intellectual/analytical. You are dehumanizing your subjects."

END QUOTE

You have no idea who I am, what I think or believe, other than what I have discussed on this forum. Where can you find the basis to say that I am dehumanizing, or have "subjects" that I cannot understand? Have you ever been dehumanized to really know what it is, or do you just throw it around as a catchphrase? Where have I dismissed people, or talked badly about women who are sex workers? Where can you find the basis to say that I don't understand people's pain and happiness? NOWHERE, because you are the one who is full of conjecture and finger-pointing, and your instinct is dead wrong. Your comments are self-serving, rather than those that are either trying to contribute, dialogue, or understand.

You don't know my fcking life, and can't even grasp my perspective or what I'm actually saying, so talk about something you do know before you accuse others of ignorance. And since you seem to know so much, why don't you show me your list of references and sources in ADDITION to your personal experience/blathering, and I won't waste any time showing you mine.

Edited July 22, 2005 by kat

[Nam Kao]

>>>you will see them every day in bars,massage places etc topping up their tank before embarking on a bit of horizontal exercise

STOP FOLLOWING ME AROUND

geez

[uncle paul]

kat if you dont already know it you may find this interesting

Edited July 22, 2005 by uncle paul

[Vit42]

Hi:

No, actually for me understanding AND acknowledging is a matter of fact.  What I mean is that I need to fully understand something before I evaluate a situation or analysis.  Fully understanding something to me means examining the situation, topic, or hyposthesis from many different angles, including and accounting for my own bias.  I have based my comments on many different sources (published and unpublished, formal and informal), corroborations, observations and anecdotal information and interviews.  As I said earlier, I have mentioned and posted some of my sources on earlier posts.  I'll be happy to do so again, but just not at this time (away from home).  But I have pointed you in the direction to start dredging things up on your own. 

The problem in general, but especially in Thailand, is that there are no "official" statistics because they are not kept well, but also because no one wants to know the real numbers.  Asia is also a region in which even the underreporting of rape is a problem, because of a deeply entrenched cultural attitude of shame.  Therefore, you have to piece together a lot of information from other sources, including other statistics.  Also, as other posters have mentioned, there is a fluid definition of "prostitution" that is at odds.  This itself is worthy of a whole other topic for which I don't have time at the moment.  And by the way, not all good social research is conducted through samples and control groups, because in certain cases this could yield its own distortions, and is no guarantee, especially when you cannot rely on straight answers, or different definitions.  So do I claim to have "factual" information?  No, the point is that no one does, for good reason.  We are all examining major trends and observations.  I try to be responsible by also examing a large variety of research on the topic by both Thais and international researchers, individuals and major organizations who have been researching this issue for several years.  Any other questions?

No Vit, it doesn't make you or me more or less, only somewhat confirms my instinct about your perspective (young, educated, American, very young emigration, etc), which I commented on previously.  Which was not a judgement, only an observation and an instinct, both of which seem to be correct.  As I said, I empathize with you, whether you can believe it or not, because I understand your perspective very well.

By the way, you're in Boston.  Are you a student or an academic?  The last place I lived was in Boston before I came to Thailand.  Something tells me you're also an ivy league graduate or graduate-level professional.

Vit, perhaps you should.  But let me warn you:  one major similarity is that most sex workers universally have a history of sexual/social abuse.  Would you like to discuss this further regarding the Thai context?  If so, you'd better buckle your seatbelt - it's going to be a bumpy ride.  And yes, I can substantiate it, and have already done so on this forum.

And Vit, when I mention "girlhood" prostitutes, I'm talking about the trend that it is now become something of an unofficial job sector, and many girls have started considering prostitution and finding a foreign husband as something akin to a career path.  But unfortunately, this riles SOME foreign men here in Thailand and they start slinging personal insults; wonder why. 

EDIT:  One other thing, you seem to be making barbed insults that somehow I am "unknown" or "unpublished", which you don't really know.  Do you really make judgements this way or is it just a cheap shot?  Do you know the PBS documentarians of the program you watched?  What are their credentials?  Do you know any of the published, non-fiction authors that you read?  Have you read any published research on this topic?   Do you need a label or some sort of approved certification from somewhere else before you decide what is "authentic" or not?  If so, then you are possibly both easily impressed and easily misled, not to mention a poor debater.  No need to respond. 

Vit, I'd have "serious reservation about the validity of any report that placed many of the burdens of prostitution on the shoulder’s of the women" also.  I don't think we disagree on principle, just on the details, which are unfortunately, hard to take.  I'm genuinely sorry about that and have apologized although I have done nothing wrong except state what I have researched, corroborated, and thought alot about to be major factors and trends.  And what I have stated here is just a smattering of how I view the situation.  I belive that wage suppression, history, and the social/religous/cultural context is also fundamental.  And yes, it is also about the differentials between a rapidly urbanizing region and the disparities between urban and rural - but that's not all of it; and blaming the foreigner is unfortunately not even close to it.  And I don't state this because I have a desire to defend the white foreigner that comes here - far from it. 

You don't have to preach to me about battered women because trust me, I know all about it - from many different sources.  But I think at some point, when you examine an issue about oppression up close and personal, academically, intellectually, and emotionally, you still retain your core values, but it is no longer enough to hold these very precious viewpoints that all of oppression or development is solely about victimization;  the world, culture, people, and the reality - whether you choose to call it fact, conjecture, research or bullshit - is actually more complicated.  Don't blame or villify me simply because I choose to understand those spaces

C’mon kat, take a stand and don’t apologize unless you think it’s necessary or feel sincere about it. We’re all adults, I think. Your research may have some validity but I’m a skeptical guy that doesn’t accept anything I don’t personal believe or have proven knowledge of. What’s particular suspect here is that your research is personal and self directed, possibly resulting in self fulfilling conclusions. This is not to insult your intelligence but wouldn’t it be foolish of me to think otherwise about someone who I can only assume is not published, someone who uses other people’s work to reference their own, and someone who believes that their singular viewpoint of “understanding” could be concluded as fact?

I stand by my opinion that your conjectures about the root of prostitution in Thailand are as misleading as are your conjectures about the legitimacy of my thai heritage and connection to thai people.

BTW, I find it ironic that you say to thaibob, “You have no idea who I am, what I think or believe, other than what I have discussed on this forum.” Really kat, isn’t this what you’ve been implying about me from my posts when you previous stated, “I think I understand your position as a possibly young, educated, urban person of color from the states, with a largley progressive outlook and politically correct view of things.” And also, “Something tells me that your primary identity is not as an "upcountry Thai boy", but as an American educated boy with roots in upcountry.” Talking about calling a spade a spade!

In the end, i think it’s condescending to use personal and biased research to legitimize your viewpoint. I also think it’s presumptuous to make assessments about people’s backgrounds as a challenge to their p.o.v. In forming an opinion about thai culture, i live it from inside and outside. Fact is that you’ll only live it from the outside. This has nothing to do with ivy league or publications but all to do real perspective. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[kat]

kat if you dont already know it you may find this interesting

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool - thanks Paul. I haven't come across that one. I'll have a look at it later.

[snoophound]

Another Deadbeat

Nicholas John Rabet, a 56-year-old British national, has been arrested at his Central Pattaya residence on charges of child molestation and carnal knowledge of minors under 15. Inside the house were two boys aged 11. Officers confiscated 11 Gameboy machines and games along with cash and other items.

Nicholas John Rabet being fingerprinted before placed in the local holding cell until his court appearance.

Rabet was taken to Soi 9 for questioning. Details of how the arrest came about were not revealed, with police refusing to answer questions. However, Rabet’s modus operandi was explained. It is alleged that he would lure the boys to his home with offers of video games. One of the boys, a 12-year-old, told of how Rabet would ask them to undress when playing the games while Rabet had his way with them. They were paid 300 baht each time and the boys were given a “commission” if they brought in others. The boy, who cannot be named, said that Rabet had children at his house every day.

Police also revealed that Rabet’s lascivious activities had been taking place over at least 11 years and that there were hundreds of children who had been subjected to the foreigner’s perversion.

On Friday afternoon, a lawyer for Rabet showed up at Pattaya police station with 200,000 baht, requesting bail for his client. Pol Maj Sriprapar Suparattanachote, head of the children and women’s division, refused to allow bail on the basis that Rabet was a danger to society.

Rabet’s legal representative was preparing for court proceedings to seek bail. If convicted, Rabet could face many years in a Thai prison.

kat if you dont already know it you may find this interesting

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool - thanks Paul. I haven't come across that one. I'll have a look at it later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kat]

C’mon kat, take a stand and don’t apologize unless you think it’s necessary or feel sincere about it. We’re all adults, I think.  Your research may have some validity but I’m a skeptical guy that doesn’t accept anything I don’t personal believe or have proven knowledge of. What’s particular suspect here is that your research is personal and self directed, possibly resulting in self fulfilling conclusions. This is not to insult your intelligence but wouldn’t it be foolish of me to think otherwise about someone who I can only assume is not published, someone who uses other people’s work to reference their own, and someone who believes that their singular viewpoint of “understanding” could be concluded as fact?

I stand by my opinion that your conjectures about the root of prostitution in Thailand are as misleading as are your conjectures about the legitimacy of my thai heritage and connection to thai people.

Fair enough Vit.  I'm not apologizing for my stand, but simply because I know what I say is unpleasant to hear.  There's nothing wrong with skepticism, I am the same.  But in the next breath, you talk about proof when it is obvious that you have not investigated any of the multiple sources that are out there; I have, and I'd be happy to share them with you.

You then say that I am suspect because my research is "personal" and self-directed.  But the first thing you asked me was who funded my research and for whom did I work.  I have a feeling you wouldn't be satisfied with anything I said, because you don't like the content.  By the way, isn't most unbiased research self-directed?  Also, I think it's ironic that you call me biased, while your sentimental and emotional attachment to Thailand as a part of your identity is a major factor.  There are certain things I cannot write or speak clearly about regarding my own ethnic background for this reason.  But I do the research.

And in terms of referencing other people's work, isn't that a standard research approach, to consult an array of primary and secondary research sources?  How can you comment on a topic if you don't compare, analyze, and reference previous research?  I guess you know, because it doesn't seem to bother you.  So in one breath you accuse me of a "singular" viewpoint, and then in the next you're commenting negatively on the fact that I've consulted a variety of sources before commenting.  We will continue this circular reasoning until you actually do some research yourself and have something to say based on what is happening now, and not on the sentimental regions of your psyche; and this is not a put-down or insult. 

I have no self-fulfilling conclusions, because I came here with absolutely no agenda or prior knowledge on this topic.  Actually, my viewpoint upon arriving here was exactly the same as yours.  I was working on another area of research altogether.  And also, where did I conclude that I was stating fact? Where do I question your Thai heritage or legitimacy.  You are obviously intelligent, so this oversight must be something else.  Now it's my turn: C'mon Vit, give me a break.  If we are all adults here, then please discuss this issue with me like an adult.

BTW, I find it ironic that you say to thaibob, “You have no idea who I am, what I think or believe, other than what I have discussed on this forum.” Really kat, isn’t this what you’ve been implying about me from my posts when you previous stated, “I think I understand your position as a possibly young, educated, urban person of color from the states, with a largley progressive outlook and politically correct view of things.” And also, “Something tells me that your primary identity is not as an "upcountry Thai boy", but as an American educated boy with roots in upcountry.” Talking about calling a spade a spade!

Vit, I don't assume to know your ethics or principles, whether or not you are a good person or a bad (although I sense that you are a good person), how you treat others, and whether or not your actions dehumanize others.  I don't know your actions, only what you say on this forum.

I was stating that I think I understand your POSITION or PERSPECTIVE based on a set of possible indicators, and based on the details you did share I think I was mostly correct.  That is different than presuming what kind of person you are, how you feel, and/or if you are guilty of this or that.

In the end, i think it’s condescending to use personal and biased research to legitimize your viewpoint.

I have no viewpoint, except to understand what is happening.  You, on the other hand, seem to have an obvious viewpoint, without investigating sources outside of yourself.  Isn't that exactly the accusation that you hurl at me? 

I have nothing to "legitimze", Vit.  My research is for my own understanding and was never intended to be published.  I guess I'm not "important" enough to have this conversation, according to your reasoning.  I simply want to try and do something to help the situation, and figure out a way to offer women more options, and thought I should understand it very well before doing so.  But of course, I am a foreigner as you mention, so my ability to do something or gain permission to do something will be limited.

I also think it’s presumptuous to make assessments about people’s backgrounds as a challenge to their p.o.v. In forming an opinion about thai culture, i live it from inside and outside. Fact is that you’ll only live it from the outside. This has nothing to do with ivy league or publications but all to do real perspective. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Vit, as I thought I stated clearly, I'm not challenging your p.o.v., just trying to understand your perspective.  I empathize with it, because I am also an ethnic minority from the states.  There is a cognitive dissonance that occurs when you are confronted with differing information about something which you hold to be dear; I've been through it.  You are right, in the case of Thailand I will always be on the outside looking in.  But based on my own experince, I've also been in your position.  That is why I know the best sources on a subject are from a variety of viewpoints, from the inside and outside, and a variety of combinations. If you doubt me on this, then I guess you'll stick to the sources that only confirm your viewpoint, such as the Ministry of Culture and research approved by the Thai Government; yeah, that'll clear everything up, from the inside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I stated before, I harbor no ill-will towards you Vit, and welcome an ongoing discussion. We can do this by PM, or whatever you wish. We can disagree forever. As long as you are willing to discuss the substance of a variety of research, I'm fine. But if you don't, well, it isn't me that ended the dialogue.

[thaibebop]

C’mon kat, take a stand and don’t apologize unless you think it’s necessary or feel sincere about it. We’re all adults, I think.  Your research may have some validity but I’m a skeptical guy that doesn’t accept anything I don’t personal believe or have proven knowledge of. What’s particular suspect here is that your research is personal and self directed, possibly resulting in self fulfilling conclusions. This is not to insult your intelligence but wouldn’t it be foolish of me to think otherwise about someone who I can only assume is not published, someone who uses other people’s work to reference their own, and someone who believes that their singular viewpoint of “understanding” could be concluded as fact?

I stand by my opinion that your conjectures about the root of prostitution in Thailand are as misleading as are your conjectures about the legitimacy of my thai heritage and connection to thai people.

Fair enough Vit.  I'm not apologizing for my stand, but simply because I know what I say is unpleasant to hear.  There's nothing wrong with skepticism, I am the same.  But in the next breath, you talk about proof when it is obvious that you have not investigated any of the multiple sources that are out there; I have, and I'd be happy to share them with you.

You then say that I am suspect because my research is "personal" and self-directed.  But the first thing you asked me was who funded my research and for whom did I work.  I have a feeling you wouldn't be satisfied with anything I said, because you don't like the content.  By the way, isn't most unbiased research self-directed?  Also, I think it's ironic that you call me biased, while your sentimental and emotional attachment to Thailand as a part of your identity is a major factor.  There are certain things I cannot write or speak clearly about regarding my own ethnic background for this reason.  But I do the research.

And in terms of referencing other people's work, isn't that a standard research approach, to consult an array of primary and secondary research sources?  How can you comment on a topic if you don't compare, analyze, and reference previous research?  I guess you know, because it doesn't seem to bother you.  So in one breath you accuse me of a "singular" viewpoint, and then in the next you're commenting negatively on the fact that I've consulted a variety of sources before commenting.  We will continue this circular reasoning until you actually do some research yourself and have something to say based on what is happening now, and not on the sentimental regions of your psyche; and this is not a put-down or insult.  

I have no self-fulfilling conclusions, because I came here with absolutely no agenda or prior knowledge on this topic.  Actually, my viewpoint upon arriving here was exactly the same as yours.  I was working on another area of research altogether.  And also, where did I conclude that I was stating fact? Where do I question your Thai heritage or legitimacy.  You are obviously intelligent, so this oversight must be something else.  Now it's my turn: C'mon Vit, give me a break.  If we are all adults here, then please discuss this issue with me like an adult.

BTW, I find it ironic that you say to thaibob, “You have no idea who I am, what I think or believe, other than what I have discussed on this forum.” Really kat, isn’t this what you’ve been implying about me from my posts when you previous stated, “I think I understand your position as a possibly young, educated, urban person of color from the states, with a largley progressive outlook and politically correct view of things.” And also, “Something tells me that your primary identity is not as an "upcountry Thai boy", but as an American educated boy with roots in upcountry.” Talking about calling a spade a spade!

Vit, I don't assume to know your ethics or principles, whether or not you are a good person or a bad (although I sense that you are a good person), how you treat others, and whether or not your actions dehumanize others.  I don't know your actions, only what you say on this forum.

I was stating that I think I understand your POSITION or PERSPECTIVE based on a set of possible indicators, and based on the details you did share I think I was mostly correct.  That is different than presuming what kind of person you are, how you feel, and/or if you are guilty of this or that.

In the end, i think it’s condescending to use personal and biased research to legitimize your viewpoint.

I have no viewpoint, except to understand what is happening.  You, on the other hand, seem to have an obvious viewpoint, without investigating sources outside of yourself.  Isn't that exactly the accusation that you hurl at me? 

I have nothing to "legitimze", Vit.  My research is for my own understanding and was never intended to be published.  I guess I'm not "important" enough to have this conversation, according to your reasoning.  I simply want to try and do something to help the situation, and figure out a way to offer women more options, and thought I should understand it very well before doing so.  But of course, I am a foreigner as you mention, so my ability to do something or gain permission to do something will be limited.

I also think it’s presumptuous to make assessments about people’s backgrounds as a challenge to their p.o.v. In forming an opinion about thai culture, i live it from inside and outside. Fact is that you’ll only live it from the outside. This has nothing to do with ivy league or publications but all to do real perspective. Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Vit, as I thought I stated clearly, I'm not challenging your p.o.v., just trying to understand your perspective.  I empathize with it, because I am also an ethnic minority from the states.  There is a cognitive dissonance that occurs when you are confronted with differing information about something which you hold to be dear; I've been through it.  You are right, in the case of Thailand I will always be on the outside looking in.  But based on my own experince, I've also been in your position.  That is why I know the best sources on a subject are from a variety of viewpoints, from the inside and outside, and a variety of combinations. If you doubt me on this, then I guess you'll stick to the sources that only confirm your viewpoint, such as the Ministry of Culture and research approved by the Thai Government; yeah, that'll clear everything up, from the inside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I stated before, I harbor no ill-will towards you Vit, and welcome an ongoing discussion. We can do this by PM, or whatever you wish. We can disagree forever. As long as you are willing to discuss the substance of a variety of research, I'm fine. But if you don't, well, it isn't me that ended the dialogue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HA! I knew it! You are a hack! This changes everything I was going to say to you. Which means it will much shorter.

I actually agreed with most of what you said, but I never liked the fact that you kept posting like you were some kind of professional doing serious research. Now I find that after all your high-handed comments you're just a lying hack. Yes, I consider agruing about whether or not you are published or not, instead of coming out and saying it is lying.

You went too far. You leaped from opinion to fact and asked us to believe what you were saying, because you have done "research". You posted references to other peoples work to try to prove what you were saying than turned around on Vit and said he was too hung up on credentials, a professinal would never had said that. Yes, whatever "research" you've done is bullocks, for it does not follow any scientific method and has allowed to many varibles for it to have accuracy. That's what science is all about.

You are not doing research and thus posting on here that you are makes me mad. I don't care if you have learned somethings and wanted to share, but to try to use your "research" to prove points is just plain wrong. People study and work for years to acheive credit in their field of study and people like you who go around moonlighting as professinals is in very bad taste. Example: Dr.Phil. He is not a doctor yet people view him as a doctor and the real professinals who have devoted their lives to their profession are pushed to the side. Kat, if it's your opinion fine, but don't try to make your opinion any thing more than that. It's a disservice to the scientific community.

"You don't have to preach to me about battered women because trust me, I know all about it - from many different sources." From many different sources Kat, &lt;deleted&gt; is that suppose to mean. Is that more of your "research"? It doesn't sound like you where the one who got their ass kicked! This is what I mean by dehumanizing people. "I know all about that, because I know this lady who was beaten by her husband." "I am expert on this becasue I have a friend who is a prostitute." Look Kat, until you've sold yourself on the street or have your face punched in by a "loved" one, you can only sympathize, you can NEVER, EVER truly understand. And for you to come on this forum and play little "research" expert with us over something that happened to your sister's friend's 2nd cousin, is pathetic!

No Kat, I don't fcking know your life and I don't need to, but I know exactly what you are trying to say and it's B.S. Don't threaten me with lists of references and sources, for you don't have any to show either. You are not a professional in any field doing any research, and until you go to school, train and receive credit for that training, go in to the field, do real research and get published in an academic journal, I, at least, will see you as a hack living off of other peoples experiences to make yourself feel better and look better in the eyes of other people. I can know this to be true because you didn't come right out and admit what your "research" really was. As well, as the fact that you took to criticism like a Muslim takes to pork, a bit too defensive over something you are not.

I am finished with you. Do not expect me to respond to anything else you might post. I have wasted enough time.

[chuchok]

HA! I knew it! You are a hack! This changes everything I was going to say to you. Which means it will much shorter.

I actually agreed with most of what you said, but I never liked the fact that you kept posting like you were some kind of professional doing serious research. Now I find that after all your high-handed comments you're just a lying hack. Yes, I consider agruing about whether or not you are published or not, instead of coming out and saying it is lying.

You went too far. You leaped from opinion to fact and asked us to believe what you were saying, because you have done "research". You posted references to other peoples work to try to prove what you were saying than turned around on Vit and said he was too hung up on credentials, a professinal would never had said that. Yes, whatever "research" you've done is bullocks, for it does not follow any scientific method and has allowed to many varibles for it to have accuracy. That's what science is all about.

You are not doing research and thus posting on here that you are makes me mad. I don't care if you have learned somethings and wanted to share, but to try to use your "research" to prove points is just plain wrong. People study and work for years to acheive credit in their field of study and people like you who go around moonlighting as professinals is in very bad taste. Example: Dr.Phil. He is not a doctor yet people view him as a doctor and the real professinals who have devoted their lives to their profession are pushed to the side. Kat, if it's your opinion fine, but don't try to make your opinion any thing more than that. It's a disservice to the scientific community.

"You don't have to preach to me about battered women because trust me, I know all about it - from many different sources." From many different sources Kat, &lt;deleted&gt; is that suppose to mean. Is that more of your "research"? It doesn't sound like you where the one who got their ass kicked! This is what I mean by dehumanizing people. "I know all about that, because I know this lady who was beaten by her husband." "I am expert on this becasue I have a friend who is a prostitute." Look Kat, until you've sold yourself on the street or have your face punched in by a "loved" one, you can only sympathize, you can NEVER, EVER truly understand. And for you to come on this forum and play little "research" expert with us over something that happened to your sister's friend's 2nd cousin, is pathetic!

No Kat, I don't fcking know your life and I don't need to, but I know exactly what you are trying to say and it's B.S. Don't threaten me with lists of references and sources, for you don't have any to show either. You are not a professional in any field doing any research, and until you go to school, train and receive credit for that training, go in to the field, do real research and get published in an academic journal, I, at least, will see you as a hack living off of other peoples experiences to make yourself feel better and look better in the eyes of other people. I can know this to be true because you didn't come right out and admit what your "research" really was. As well, as the fact that you took to criticism like a Muslim takes to pork, a bit too defensive over something you are not.

I am finished with you. Do not expect me to respond to anything else you might post. I have wasted enough time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning thaibebop? Not going to reply to kat...what a wet blanket!

[kayo]

Wow.... Heavy reading....

So.....

.

... What time does the pub open then?

[chuchok]

Wow.... Heavy reading....

So.....

... What time does the pub open then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not soon enough after all this crap.

[Vit42]

Wow.... Heavy reading....

So.....

... What time does the pub open then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not soon enough after all this crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wish I was there to buy the 1st round guys… maybe next time I’m in town. Anyone who’s read through this whole thread and stayed awake definitely deserves one on me.

[chuchok]

kat if you dont already know it you may find this interesting

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I clicked on the link and I then clicked on the first point that came up

" 10 Reasons Why Prostitution Law Reform Won't Work" link

That took me to a NZ site that is a Politically motivated conservative group. I know this because one of my old mans mates is on the Board. I would liken them to Jerry Fallwell type of people, but they don't try and push religion down peoples thoats,but the underlining current of this type of thought is there.

They are certainly not dummies, but I would hardly call them an impartial bunch either.

[kat]

HA! I knew it! You are a hack! This changes everything I was going to say to you. Which means it will much shorter.

I actually agreed with most of what you said, but I never liked the fact that you kept posting like you were some kind of professional doing serious research. Now I find that after all your high-handed comments you're just a lying hack. Yes, I consider agruing about whether or not you are published or not, instead of coming out and saying it is lying.

You went too far. You leaped from opinion to fact and asked us to believe what you were saying, because you have done "research". You posted references to other peoples work to try to prove what you were saying than turned around on Vit and said he was too hung up on credentials, a professinal would never had said that. Yes, whatever "research" you've done is bullocks, for it does not follow any scientific method and has allowed to many varibles for it to have accuracy. That's what science is all about.

You are not doing research and thus posting on here that you are makes me mad. I don't care if you have learned somethings and wanted to share, but to try to use your "research" to prove points is just plain wrong. People study and work for years to acheive credit in their field of study and people like you who go around moonlighting as professinals is in very bad taste. Example: Dr.Phil. He is not a doctor yet people view him as a doctor and the real professinals who have devoted their lives to their profession are pushed to the side. Kat, if it's your opinion fine, but don't try to make your opinion any thing more than that. It's a disservice to the scientific community.

"You don't have to preach to me about battered women because trust me, I know all about it - from many different sources." From many different sources Kat, &lt;deleted&gt; is that suppose to mean. Is that more of your "research"? It doesn't sound like you where the one who got their ass kicked! This is what I mean by dehumanizing people. "I know all about that, because I know this lady who was beaten by her husband." "I am expert on this becasue I have a friend who is a prostitute." Look Kat, until you've sold yourself on the street or have your face punched in by a "loved" one, you can only sympathize, you can NEVER, EVER truly understand. And for you to come on this forum and play little "research" expert with us over something that happened to your sister's friend's 2nd cousin, is pathetic!

No Kat, I don't fcking know your life and I don't need to, but I know exactly what you are trying to say and it's B.S. Don't threaten me with lists of references and sources, for you don't have any to show either. You are not a professional in any field doing any research, and until you go to school, train and receive credit for that training, go in to the field, do real research and get published in an academic journal, I, at least, will see you as a hack living off of other peoples experiences to make yourself feel better and look better in the eyes of other people. I can know this to be true because you didn't come right out and admit what your "research" really was. As well, as the fact that you took to criticism like a Muslim takes to pork, a bit too defensive over something you are not.

I am finished with you. Do not expect me to respond to anything else you might post. I have wasted enough time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning thaibebop? Not going to reply to kat...what a wet blanket!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kat]

HA! I knew it! You are a hack! This changes everything I was going to say to you. Which means it will much shorter.

I actually agreed with most of what you said, but I never liked the fact that you kept posting like you were some kind of professional doing serious research. Now I find that after all your high-handed comments you're just a lying hack. Yes, I consider agruing about whether or not you are published or not, instead of coming out and saying it is lying.

You went too far. You leaped from opinion to fact and asked us to believe what you were saying, because you have done "research". You posted references to other peoples work to try to prove what you were saying than turned around on Vit and said he was too hung up on credentials, a professinal would never had said that. Yes, whatever "research" you've done is bullocks, for it does not follow any scientific method and has allowed to many varibles for it to have accuracy. That's what science is all about.

You are not doing research and thus posting on here that you are makes me mad. I don't care if you have learned somethings and wanted to share, but to try to use your "research" to prove points is just plain wrong. People study and work for years to acheive credit in their field of study and people like you who go around moonlighting as professinals is in very bad taste. Example: Dr.Phil. He is not a doctor yet people view him as a doctor and the real professinals who have devoted their lives to their profession are pushed to the side. Kat, if it's your opinion fine, but don't try to make your opinion any thing more than that. It's a disservice to the scientific community.

"You don't have to preach to me about battered women because trust me, I know all about it - from many different sources." From many different sources Kat, &lt;deleted&gt; is that suppose to mean. Is that more of your "research"? It doesn't sound like you where the one who got their ass kicked! This is what I mean by dehumanizing people. "I know all about that, because I know this lady who was beaten by her husband." "I am expert on this becasue I have a friend who is a prostitute." Look Kat, until you've sold yourself on the street or have your face punched in by a "loved" one, you can only sympathize, you can NEVER, EVER truly understand. And for you to come on this forum and play little "research" expert with us over something that happened to your sister's friend's 2nd cousin, is pathetic!

No Kat, I don't fcking know your life and I don't need to, but I know exactly what you are trying to say and it's B.S. Don't threaten me with lists of references and sources, for you don't have any to show either. You are not a professional in any field doing any research, and until you go to school, train and receive credit for that training, go in to the field, do real research and get published in an academic journal, I, at least, will see you as a hack living off of other peoples experiences to make yourself feel better and look better in the eyes of other people. I can know this to be true because you didn't come right out and admit what your "research" really was. As well, as the fact that you took to criticism like a Muslim takes to pork, a bit too defensive over something you are not.

I am finished with you. Do not expect me to respond to anything else you might post. I have wasted enough time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning thaibebop? Not going to reply to kat...what a wet blanket!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are a raving idiot. Like many of the men here, you continue to ignore the content of what is actually being said so that you don't have to confront the veracity of your diatribe or lack of arguments on the subject at hand. You therefore turn me into the suject and attack me personally - a typical response of people everywhere with nothing substantial to say

I have never posted that I am doing "professional" research on this topic. "Professional" means that you are accepting money from someone, which I am not. I have been a professional researcher, and know the other dilemmas that go along with research as a paid position. There are many reasons to do *research (for those of you who need it, I've pasted a definition of the term at the bottom of the page). I could be doing research toward a future dissertation, or to investigate the possibility of a future dissertation, for sheer curiosity, for a future book, or simply because I like to know what the ###### I am talking about before I spout off at the mouth about something so important; which by the way, I have spent more than 2 years doing - how about you? There is, of course, also the comical conundrum which none of you seem to grasp, which is that all research or authors start out as unpublished, until they are of course ..... published. Your points are all diversionary tangets which have driven us away from the actual topic. But I also mentioned that I have an interest in starting a future project to address the needs of women and children. That was the initial motivation, but all of the above could suffice - not that it is any of your business, anyway. Because it really doesn't matter, what matters is understanding and discussing the ISSUE, not me.

In terms of my educational credentials, I have no need to enter a pissing contest, but I can assure you that I have a graduate-level degree from one of the most scientifically rigorous universities in the world, and attended classes at two of the top 3 universities. And I am equally sure that every research report that I have ever read, from the lowliest undergraduate term paper to the most acclaimed professor's work, has a long list of references and comparative research. However, I guess you all feel comfortable denigrating the fact that I've actually done the reading, rather than spout off my before understanding what "professionals" have to say on the matter. Of course, there is the at least one of your references on the table: a 2-3 hour documentary program on the Public Broadcast System in the states. By the way, I know people who make documentary programs and get them onto PBS; are you aware that they are "professional" documentarians that do short-term programs on a variety of different topics?

In terms of my life, I purposely hold back on very personal details when speaking to a bunch of anonymous, and apparently, venom-spewing, female-bashing idiots. Let's just say that I am from a low-income background, of mixed-heritage origins, from a dysfunctional family, and probably have seen and lived more of what you spout on about then you can possibly imagine. Good riddance.

For a bunch of guys who are falling asleep, a great many of you seem to like to do it here

re·search ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-s๛rch, rs๛rch)

n.

Scholarly or scientific investigation or inquiry. See Synonyms at inquiry.

Close, careful study.

v. re·searched, re·search·ing, re·search·es

v. intr.

To engage in or perform research.

v. tr.

To study (something) thoroughly so as to present in a detailed, accurate manner: researching the effects of acid rain.

To do research for: research a magazine article.

[Harmonica]

i have a couple of freinds in thailand who are bar girls: as long as they are honest i dont care what their background is as they just want to be loved and treated with respect. i have been told by one that i am her only real male friend & by that she means i never try to bed her, grope her or be generally dismissive of her background: we are just friends.

blah blah blah

there's a whole lotta f*ckin goin on in LOS and you're not even groping her?

no harmonica we will not be friends and i sincerely hope that you catch something incurable to go with that incurable moronic attitude of yours

Don't be like that, Uncle Paul -- gropin, f*ckin, eatin, livin, dinin, drivin etc. -- same order of magnitude until some smartass comes along and complicates it!

Uncle Paul, kindly reverse that curse (catch something incurable) -- it is seriously messing up both the sound and picture quality of my Cable! ... and, can we be friends now?

[wilko]

.

Looking at this thread it occurs to me that in fact virtually no Thai women are actually prostitutes. It’s certainly not a word I’m happy using.

The problem is that we don't have a word for what they do in English, so we have to use words usually reserved for a much more sleazy form of activity.

Sorry Wilco you don't make sense to me.

Piece I highlighted in yellow would maybe make sense if you said some \thai girls sell sex therefore some Thai girls are prostitutes. But then that wouldn't prallel the dog and cat thing.

You also state that "The word prostitute does not fully define the way that bars etc operate in Thailand – they are as it were a different animal, and we need another word.". I don't think that you should have used the word "Prostitute" in that satetement, but the word "Brothel". Nobody I know uses the word Brothel instead of bar.

Prostitutes provide sex in exchange for money, if a bar girl provides sex in exchange for money, that bar girl is a prostitute........That is the truth. EH????

that's excactly what I'm not trying to say...

all this about using the word brothel....I covered that in other sleazy vocab.

the definition doesn't change a thing

brothel /"brQT(<schwa>)l/ n.LME. [ult. f. OE breoÞan deteriorate, degenerate, of unkn. origin. In sense 3 abbrev. of brothel-house, infl. by and superseding BORDEL.]<unknown>1 A worthless wretch, a good-for-nothing. LME–L16.<unknown>2 A prostitute. LME–E17.3 A house where prostitutes work. L16.Comb.: brothel-creepers slang soft-soled (usu. suede) shoes; brothel-house arch. = sense 3 above.<unknown>brotheller n. a whoremonger E17–E19.brothelly a. (rare) whorish E17.brothelry n. (a) arch. lewdness; <unknown>( a brothel: M16

I’m sorry you can’t understand my point

Actually - I accidently missed out the second “some” but didn't think it would prevent people from getting my gist…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited July 24, 2005 by wilko

[kreon]

and its not just the girls, as one poor farmer once said, life in asia is paradise for a few people with money, for the other 10's of millions its a from day to day living h3ll

[loong]

Wilco -

You back on this again

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand your stance on these points.

Going back on your posts.........................my additions highlighted in green

wilko Posted on: 2005-07-22 10:42:23

Looking at this thread it occurs to me that in fact virtually no Thai women are actually prostitutes. It’s certainly not a word I’m happy using.

How can you possibly reach that conclusion? I believe that you live in Pattaya and frequently go to Koh Samui. You have eyes?

The problem is that we don't have a word for what they do in English, so we have to use words usually reserved for a much more sleazy form of activity.

Prostitute - generally accepted definition - Male or female who engages in sexual activity in return for payment. We do have a word for it in English

e.g. Look at this definition: - Cats have four legs; my dog has four legs therefore my dog is a cat…

OR - Prostitutes sell sex for money; some Thai girls sell sex for money therefore Thai girls are prostitutes…

This actually means nothing, the idea that your dog is a cat because it has 4 legs is ridiculous, therefore it is obvious that the idea that all Thai girls are prostitutes is equally ridiculous. I can't see how it is relevant. Are you trying to suggest that foriegn men are stupid enough to believe that ALL Thai girls are prostitutes

However, it may be a common belief among farang that all Thai girls are potential prostitutes.

Taking a leaf from your book.

Man - "If I gave you a million $ would you spend the night with me?"

Woman - "Yes"

Man - "If I gave you 10 $ would you spend the night with me?"

Woman - "Of course not! What kind of girl do you think I am?"

Man - "We've already established what kind of girl you are. Now we're haggling over the price"

After you originally posted this you followed up by saying that you missed of the 2nd "some" and then said you meant to put in "any" instead of "some", neither making any sense. Then you followed up with "Ok try many" So what exactly did you mean to write and to what end?

Prostitutes sell sex for money; MANY Thai girls sell sex for money therefore MANY Thai girls are prostitutes…

Yes, makes perfect sense.........is not, as you subsequently try to claim, an exercise in errant logic at all..............

So you agree, Many Thai girls are prostitutes

If the idea of your posting was to state that Not all Thais are prostitutes,Then I agree with you. It that was your point, it was a strange inept and silly way to try to get it across

The word prostitute does not fully define the way that bars etc operate in Thailand – they are as it were a different animal, and we need another word.

The word prostitute describes a person and cannot be used in defining the way that bars operate. I did suggest that 'brothel' may be a more appropriate word. The word brothel certainly applies to the short time enclosed bars where they have rooms upstairs. As far as I know the street corners in Soho or other red light districts do not have a word to describe them, so I think we are stuck with 'Bar' The word bargirl, however is almost without exception taken to be a softer word for prostitute. The word in Thai for prostitute is 'Soh-pay-nee' (excuse my phonetics if are not spot on). The worst word is 'Garee' meaning 'whore' . Please forget this word as NO Thai will thank you for using it. Also be very careful when ordering curry in a restaraunt . There is a phrase in Thai that describes the bargirls, 'Mee-uh Chow' meaning rental or rented wife. This may be a gentler way of describing them, but they are still prostitutes if they accept cash for sex

Incidently in your previous post you include the definition of 'brothel'. This definition also includes ME (middle English) that is English pertaining to the period between Old English and Modern English. "Forsooks! We can't poffibly be using anything but modern English now can we? Brothel, means a place to go and visit prostitutes and avail yourselves of their services.

Regading your last posting on my comment

Prostitutes provide sex in exchange for money, if a bar girl provides sex in exchange for money, that bar girl is a prostitute........That is the truth. EH????

I have adjusted the font and colour controls as they didn't work in your post.

You have a one word response to my statement......EH????

What does this mean? I take it to mean that you disagree with my statement. Please explain in simple English how you can possibly disagree. Please don't start going on about your cat and dog again.

I look forward to your Coherent respose

[wilko]

I'm suggesting that just as everything with 4 legs is not necessarily a cat, everyone who sells sex for money is not necessarily a prostitute.

The dog and cat thing is to illustrate a point - which it clearly hasn't in your case...

Edited July 24, 2005 by wilko

[britmaveric]

[loong]

I'm suggesting that just as everything with 4 legs is not necessarily a cat, everyone who sells sex for money is not necessarily a prostitute.

The dog and cat thing is to illustrate a point - which it clearly hasn't in your case...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wilco, I'm sorry but maybe I see things in black and white too much.

By definition everyone who sells sex for money IS a prostitute.

[Sir Burr]

I'm suggesting that just as everything with 4 legs is not necessarily a cat, everyone who sells sex for money is not necessarily a prostitute.

The dog and cat thing is to illustrate a point - which it clearly hasn't in your case...

Wilco, I'm sorry but maybe I see things in black and white too much.

By definition everyone who sells sex for money IS a prostitute.

The ordinary mothers in Italy and Germany in 1945 who sold their bodies to the occupying forces, so that they could provide food for their children. Were they prostitutes? Yes, I guess they were by the strict definition in the dictionary.

I doubt they saw it that way themselves. For them it was all about survival.

All morals are luxuries when you don't have food, shelter and clothing.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Sir Burr

[loong]

I'm suggesting that just as everything with 4 legs is not necessarily a cat, everyone who sells sex for money is not necessarily a prostitute.

The dog and cat thing is to illustrate a point - which it clearly hasn't in your case...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wilco, I'm sorry but maybe I see things in black and white too much.

By definition everyone who sells sex for money IS a prostitute.

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Were the ordinary mothers in Italy and Germany in 1945 who sold their bodies to the occupying forces, so that they could provide food for their children prostitutes?

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By definition - Yes

[meom]

I'm suggesting that just as everything with 4 legs is not necessarily a cat, everyone who sells sex for money is not necessarily a prostitute.

Fully agree Wilko. Once she's going for the big bucks without a pimp backing her she can be called an entrepreneur.

Water still flows in the same holes though