Resurgence Of Thai Red Shirts Causes New Concerns

[rubl]

This article claims there were about 5,000 people at the rally while, in a different article of TN, the new police chief informed the PM that the police estimate was wrong, as the figure was more like 10,000.

Does someone need to go back to school to learn how to count??

Seems like one sided reporting to me. But then again the Nation must be owned by a yellow shirt, who never do anything wrong.

The Nation had a bit of a run-in with K. Thaksin in 2005 I think. Difference of opinion on 'freedom of the press'. No link with yellow shirts, they have their own channels.

As for one sided reporting, why not start reading the 'Red Power' magazine. Maybe more in line with your thoughts ?

Edited September 22, 2010 by rubl

[rubl]

Amart? .... WOW! Somebody believes this is about Amart and Phrai? That somebody fails to see that it is a very privileged few that are leading the Red cause and that those few are certainly amongst Thailand's elite. I am amazed to see people actually using the red propaganda buzz-words so shamelessly

"amart" is a useful shorthand term.Most people, regardless of their political views, know exactly what it means.Why are you so excited by its use?

"phrai" is normally used ironically, and actually rather less than a few months ago.

The problem with 'amart' is that the term has been hijacked by the UDD / red-shirt movement and now seems ONLY to refer to the 'elite' they oppose. That of course would exclude K. Thaksin c.s.

[neverdie]

This article claims there were about 5,000 people at the rally while, in a different article of TN, the new police chief informed the PM that the police estimate was wrong, as the figure was more like 10,000.

Does someone need to go back to school to learn how to count??

Seems like one sided reporting to me. But then again the Nation must be owned by a yellow shirt, who never do anything wrong.

just stick around for a bit, in a week, TallForeigner will be saying 40,000 attended.

Perhaps this poster has motives for cooking the books, so to speak?

[hammered]

However the delay I was alluding to was more in the ballpark of 2013 or even 2014.

Hypothesize for me, if you will, exactly how the Abhisit government - or regime as you prefer - will manage to delay their term in office beyond the length of what the constitution allows.

If you read what I have already written the answer to your question is there, albeit somewhat obliquely for the usual reasons.

Let's just say that a major event is likely to be exploited by the elite, whether through a state of emergency, another coup....who can tell? Anything but a fair choice by the Thai people.

There has actually been some speculation in the Thai media that a disolution of the Dems will pressage some form of coup. There had also previously been specualtion that some sort of cross party deal would see an extended period of no election. That is notwithstanding what you alude to. On the other hand there may just be an election

[rubl]

This article claims there were about 5,000 people at the rally while, in a different article of TN, the new police chief informed the PM that the police estimate was wrong, as the figure was more like 10,000.

Does someone need to go back to school to learn how to count??

Seems like one sided reporting to me. But then again the Nation must be owned by a yellow shirt, who never do anything wrong.

just stick around for a bit, in a week, TallForeigner will be saying 40,000 attended.

Perhaps this poster has motives for cooking the books, so to speak?

He did mention having a commercial interest, now didn't he

[Buchholz]

another wannabe "journalist".... with emphasis on the quotation marks

Well, writing a book about the action with first hand knowledge and good photos from the scene needs direct involvement. There is huge demand for it and I already sold hundreds of photos for good money.

[Buchholz]

More than one poster has referred to the Reds now being a democracy movement, with Thaksin no longer being an issue. As they seem to vote for PTP, please explain the following quote from today's news:

"Chalerm to seek Thaksin's approval on campaign platforms

Pheu Thai MP Chalerm Yoobamrung on Tuesday said he would soon meet with ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra to seek his approval for five campaign platforms at the next poll.

"Should Thaksin travel to the region, I will take a trip to meet and get his blessing for the Pheu Thai policies," he said.

Staggeringly brazen.

Can't get much more in-your-face than that.

Also refutes hundreds of lengthy "it's not about Thaksin" posts with a few simple lines.

[neverdie]

He did mention having a commercial interest, now didn't he

Apparently so, I'm wondering if hes obtained all the necessary work permits etc ?

Besides that, of course theres nothing like being 'one eyed' is there?

[rixalex]

If you read what I have already written the answer to your question is there, albeit somewhat obliquely for the usual reasons.

Let's just say that a major event is likely to be exploited by the elite, whether through a state of emergency, another coup....who can tell? Anything but a fair choice by the Thai people.

After the last coup many were predicting that the military would find excuses to cling on to power way beyond the elections that they timetabled - that there would be convenient reasons cropping up for delays - these same people also predicted that if and when elections did finally come, should Thaksin's proxy party manage to get into power, that they would never make it into office because the "amart" would not allow it.

Elections were however delivered on schedule and Thaksin's PPP party did get into office. The fact that they didn't manage to stay in office very long doesn't change those two facts. You might say it undermines them, and you might be right, but of course that depends on which version of events you choose to believe in regards the respective downfalls of Samak and Somchai.

[jayboy]

If you read what I have already written the answer to your question is there, albeit somewhat obliquely for the usual reasons.

Let's just say that a major event is likely to be exploited by the elite, whether through a state of emergency, another coup....who can tell? Anything but a fair choice by the Thai people.

After the last coup many were predicting that the military would find excuses to cling on to power way beyond the elections that they timetabled - that there would be convenient reasons cropping up for delays - these same people also predicted that if and when elections did finally come, should Thaksin's proxy party manage to get into power, that they would never make it into office because the "amart" would not allow it.

Elections were however delivered on schedule and Thaksin's PPP party did get into office. The fact that they didn't manage to stay in office very long doesn't change those two facts. You might say it undermines them, and you might be right, but of course that depends on which version of events you choose to believe in regards the respective downfalls of Samak and Somchai.

I don't think the military really care about the means particularly as the military junta after the coup was so incompetent, lethargic and finally detested.The end of course is the military budget which has increased hugely with all the corruption and venality that implies.In Abhisit they have found a patsy - whether willing or not isn't clear, so all things being equal it doesn't seem logical for these old crooks and their feudal hangers on to launch another coup.But of course things are never equal and events have a way of disturbing the best laid plans.In addition there is a brutish quality to their thinking which combined with a certain stupidity and lack of any sense of enlightened self interest makes their reactions very unpredictable.

Edited September 22, 2010 by jayboy

[Insight]

More than one poster has referred to the Reds now being a democracy movement, with Thaksin no longer being an issue. As they seem to vote for PTP, please explain the following quote from today's news:

"Chalerm to seek Thaksin's approval on campaign platforms

Pheu Thai MP Chalerm Yoobamrung on Tuesday said he would soon meet with ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra to seek his approval for five campaign platforms at the next poll.

"Should Thaksin travel to the region, I will take a trip to meet and get his blessing for the Pheu Thai policies," he said.

Staggeringly brazen.

Can't get much more in-your-face than that.

Also refutes hundreds of lengthy "it's not about Thaksin" posts with a few simple lines.

The last person who harped on about Thaksin and his orders too much at a "sensitive" time ended up with a nuclear migraine...

[rixalex]

I don't think the military really care about the means particularly as the military junta after the coup was so incompetent, lethargic and finally detested.

Just a minor point here, but i happen to think that in the circumstances, Surayud did an ok job. It was only ever going to be a stop-gap measure and therefore i don't think anyone would have been able to come in for that length of time and in that situation and do much better. Do you?

As for the detested bit, that wasn't something i can really say i picked up on. Most people seemed pretty unmoved one way or the other. Where did you get that impression from?

[jayboy]

I don't think the military really care about the means particularly as the military junta after the coup was so incompetent, lethargic and finally detested.

Just a minor point here, but i happen to think that in the circumstances, Surayud did an ok job. It was only ever going to be a stop-gap measure and therefore i don't think anyone would have been able to come in for that length of time and in that situation and do much better. Do you?

As for the detested bit, that wasn't something i can really say i picked up on. Most people seemed pretty unmoved one way or the other. Where did you get that impression from?

Surayud was an incompetent, indolent old codger, though personally decent enough, and his record speaks for itself.This isn't really very controversial.If you think he did an "OK job" so be it.

On your second point you have a case and on reflection "detested" is probably too strong a description.But most people regardless of political affiliation were glad to see the back of this incompetent government.

[Buchholz]

Yes, very much unlike his immediate successor who was a competent, young, and righteous man who is highly thought of by all.

[rixalex]

Yes, very much unlike his immediate successor who was a competent, young, and righteous man who is highly thought of by all.

That same thought was going through my mind.

Surayud to my mind was simply ineffective, but as i mentioned, i don't think realistically much was expected considering the conditions he was under. Incompetent perhaps. Detested i think not. Both those words could be more accurately and aptley used to describe the man who replaced him. I think even those who had voted PPP struggled to find a good word to say about that man. I could add, "may he rest in peace", but i'd only be lying.

[rubl]

Yes, very much unlike his immediate successor who was a competent, young, and righteous man who is highly thought of by all.

Especially highly thought of by the families of those still missing after he roused the Army to start shooting at those death-seeking, mutinous communist students back on the 6th of October 1976.

[jayboy]

Yes, very much unlike his immediate successor who was a competent, young, and righteous man who is highly thought of by all.

Especially highly thought of by the families of those still missing after he roused the Army to start shooting at those death-seeking, mutinous communist students back on the 6th of October 1976.

Samak's role in 1976 was deplorable but he was on the sidelines.The atrocities were committed by mainly upcountry right wing thugs not the army.Who financed and encouraged the Red Gaurs and others to murder? Who indeed?

[Insight]

The knives are very visibly out...

[rubl]

Yes, very much unlike his immediate successor who was a competent, young, and righteous man who is highly thought of by all.

Especially highly thought of by the families of those still missing after he roused the Army to start shooting at those death-seeking, mutinous communist students back on the 6th of October 1976.

Samak's role in 1976 was deplorable but he was on the sidelines.The atrocities were committed by mainly upcountry right wing thugs not the army.Who financed and encouraged the Red Gaurs and others to murder? Who indeed?

From wikipedia:

"On October 5, Samak was removed from his ministerial position, and in reaction organized an anti-government demonstration calling for the removal of three liberal Democrat ministers he branded as being "communists".[8]. It had been said that Samak was involved in the 6 October 1976 Massacre at Thammasat University in which students were protesting against the return of a military dictator. Samak played a crucial role in instigating violence against the students he called "communists". The incident ended violently, the victims were brutally slaughtered and burnt."

Now wikipedia is not always a 100% reliable source of information, but this correlates with what others have been saying. Hardly 'sidelined' I think.

Border Police Forces and Right-Wing Militia did the atrocities. Red Gaurs and Village Scouts. Patronage by the highest authority. Don't forget, all pawns in the hot days of the cold war. This had (almost) nothing to do with social injustice !

[AbeSurd]

OK, I'll ask again. Does anybody have any idea as to whether 50,000 people turned up to the rally called by the Interior Ministry?

This is relevant to the discussion as it will provide some measure of the support given to Newin Chidchob-headed faction of the

Bhumjaithai Party that formed the Monarchy Defence Network and Interior Minister Chavarat Charnviraku who was due to preside

over the meeting. Apparently observers believe that the gathering was intended as a foil to the UDD's nationwide rallies.

Anybody from Udon Thani out there?

I'm not from Udon Thani but you're asking a good question.

I can't find anything - not a single photo - on the internet about it. Just that mention in passing in the Bangkok Post article about the red-shirt rally in Bangkok .

If anyone can provide links to pictures from this event in Udon Thani I'd be interested in seeing them.

Edited September 22, 2010 by AbeSurd

[Buchholz]

Yes, very much unlike his immediate successor who was a competent, young, and righteous man who is highly thought of by all.

That same thought was going through my mind.

Surayud to my mind was simply ineffective, but as i mentioned, i don't think realistically much was expected considering the conditions he was under. Incompetent perhaps. Detested i think not. Both those words could be more accurately and aptley used to describe the man who replaced him. I think even those who had voted PPP struggled to find a good word to say about that man. I could add, "may he rest in peace", but i'd only be lying.

It's further worth noting what became of the 2 different premiers after they left their PM posts. Quite different paths there.

[rixalex]

It's further worth noting what became of the 2 different premiers after they left their PM posts. Quite different paths there.

Quite different paths? Yes, I think that would be fair to say... especially considering the fact that one of them is currently pushing up daisies.

[Buchholz]

It's further worth noting what became of the 2 different premiers after they left their PM posts. Quite different paths there.

Quite different paths? Yes, I think that would be fair to say... especially considering the fact that one of them is currently pushing up daisies.

But not before facing a half dozen pending court cases involving his corruption prior to his demise.

[rixalex]

It's further worth noting what became of the 2 different premiers after they left their PM posts. Quite different paths there.

Quite different paths? Yes, I think that would be fair to say... especially considering the fact that one of them is currently pushing up daisies.

But not before facing a half dozen pending court cases involving his corruption prior to his demise.

Quite so. Of all the stalling tactics he used in cases against him, i think death was the most inspired.

[Shotime]

My main concern is that I'm afraid to wear this really nice red, polo shirt that I bought.

Why don't they just adopt T-shirts with a bulls-eye on them. When I was young, and went to over-night camp, we always had a color-war at the end of the season. It's kind of juvenile, no?

[yoshiwara]

If you read what I have already written the answer to your question is there, albeit somewhat obliquely for the usual reasons.

Let's just say that a major event is likely to be exploited by the elite, whether through a state of emergency, another coup....who can tell? Anything but a fair choice by the Thai people.

After the last coup many were predicting that the military would find excuses to cling on to power way beyond the elections that they timetabled - that there would be convenient reasons cropping up for delays - these same people also predicted that if and when elections did finally come, should Thaksin's proxy party manage to get into power, that they would never make it into office because the "amart" would not allow it.

Elections were however delivered on schedule and Thaksin's PPP party did get into office. The fact that they didn't manage to stay in office very long doesn't change those two facts. You might say it undermines them, and you might be right, but of course that depends on which version of events you choose to believe in regards the respective downfalls of Samak and Somchai.

I don't think the military really care about the means particularly as the military junta after the coup was so incompetent, lethargic and finally detested.The end of course is the military budget which has increased hugely with all the corruption and venality that implies.In Abhisit they have found a patsy - whether willing or not isn't clear, so all things being equal it doesn't seem logical for these old crooks and their feudal hangers on to launch another coup.But of course things are never equal and events have a way of disturbing the best laid plans.In addition there is a brutish quality to their thinking which combined with a certain stupidity and lack of any sense of enlightened self interest makes their reactions very unpredictable.

Speculative blah.

What the red cheerleaders are very upset about is Abhisit's competence. They can't quite sort out what line to peddle. Is it the accusations of being Hitler or surrounded by corrupt homosexuals (this from that nasty piece of work Thaksin) or is it the petty bourgeois attacks on his educational record from the forum reds? The answer of course is that since the reds do not have a consistent ideology apart from ultimately being bag carriers for Thaksin is to use any and all accusations however contradictory. Its all the same to them.

[jayboy]

If you read what I have already written the answer to your question is there, albeit somewhat obliquely for the usual reasons.

Let's just say that a major event is likely to be exploited by the elite, whether through a state of emergency, another coup....who can tell? Anything but a fair choice by the Thai people.

After the last coup many were predicting that the military would find excuses to cling on to power way beyond the elections that they timetabled - that there would be convenient reasons cropping up for delays - these same people also predicted that if and when elections did finally come, should Thaksin's proxy party manage to get into power, that they would never make it into office because the "amart" would not allow it.

Elections were however delivered on schedule and Thaksin's PPP party did get into office. The fact that they didn't manage to stay in office very long doesn't change those two facts. You might say it undermines them, and you might be right, but of course that depends on which version of events you choose to believe in regards the respective downfalls of Samak and Somchai.

I don't think the military really care about the means particularly as the military junta after the coup was so incompetent, lethargic and finally detested.The end of course is the military budget which has increased hugely with all the corruption and venality that implies.In Abhisit they have found a patsy - whether willing or not isn't clear, so all things being equal it doesn't seem logical for these old crooks and their feudal hangers on to launch another coup.But of course things are never equal and events have a way of disturbing the best laid plans.In addition there is a brutish quality to their thinking which combined with a certain stupidity and lack of any sense of enlightened self interest makes their reactions very unpredictable.

Speculative blah.

What the red cheerleaders are very upset about is Abhisit's competence. They can't quite sort out what line to peddle. Is it the accusations of being Hitler or surrounded by corrupt homosexuals (this from that nasty piece of work Thaksin) or is it the petty bourgeois attacks on his educational record from the forum reds? The answer of course is that since the reds do not have a consistent ideology apart from ultimately being bag carriers for Thaksin is to use any and all accusations however contradictory. Its all the same to them.

The massive increase in the military budget since the coup is a matter of record not speculation.

If you think the driver of red disatisfaction is pique at Abisit's competence you really are living in lala land.Again you can't help swerving back to your Rainmain refrain that the reds are simply Thaksin's stooges.For more serious people read the Pasuk/Baker piece in today's Bangkok Post which comprehensively demolishes Yoshiwara's line of drivel.

And as for petty bourgeois attacks on Abhisit's educational record what on earth is this fellow talking about.I have never heard of Abhisit's distinguished education record being impugned by anyone regardless of political affiliation.Nobody thinks of Abhisit as other than highly intelligent even a good man:the puzzle is why he feels the need to be such a patsy.But one suspects, from his incoherent thought processes, Yoshiwara has never come closer to an elite educational institution than Hogwarts.The stuffier dons at Cambridge used to call this one of the signs of an untrained mind.

[jayboy]

I don't claim to have the answers, but one thing i do know is that anyone who supports the reds but thinks they can do so without being a part of the movement's over-riding and single-minded fight on behalf of Thaksin's interests, is seriously fooling themselves.

I hope I don't embarrass you with praise from my quarter, but I thought your comments were intelligent and relevant and what is more with a reasonable tone.The part of your post I have highlighted is a question where there can be serious debate.There's no absolute truth here.I believe the red movement has transcended Thaksin but one would be naive to be wholly certain about this.

[FarangCravings]

The red shirts are part of the future of Thailand whatever one thinks of them. Even most yellow supporters I know recognize this.

Exactly and I dont blame them if they go out and demonstrate all over again nothings happened for them JUST BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR THE ABHISIT GOVERNMENT since they crushed the last one and suppressed them.

[rixalex]

I don't claim to have the answers, but one thing i do know is that anyone who supports the reds but thinks they can do so without being a part of the movement's over-riding and single-minded fight on behalf of Thaksin's interests, is seriously fooling themselves.

I hope I don't embarrass you with praise from my quarter, but I thought your comments were intelligent and relevant and what is more with a reasonable tone.The part of your post I have highlighted is a question where there can be serious debate.There's no absolute truth here.I believe the red movement has transcended Thaksin but one would be naive to be wholly certain about this.

Shucks, if i'm desperate enough to accept the praise of women of the night here who commonly (meaning both frequency and manner) shout "hey you, hansum man!" in my general direction from the other side of the street, i think i'm desperate enough to accept praise from any quarter, and that includes yours jayboy - assuming of course that it is offered in a genuine and sincere manner as i know it to be with the aforementioned ladies!

Whoops! There's me pegged as another bar-stool-observer.