Pigs 101 (A Start)

[jompa67]

My wife has been and talked to purchasers of pigs. They told us that there is an unusual amount of pigs on the market because CP has begun to give unsuccessful boars with an injection of a "something" that removes bad taste and odor from the meat (before slaughter). That way they can sell more meat to the usual price.

It talks a lot about this in the area where we live, and people are wondering if this is healthy.

Is there anyone who knows more about this, or is this like so much else down here, just BS

[pigeonjake]

if you slaughter a boar right you dont get boar taint,

cp at there tricks again,,

[nutterz64]

My wife has been and talked to purchasers of pigs. They told us that there is an unusual amount of pigs on the market because CP has begun to give unsuccessful boars with an injection of a "something" that removes bad taste and odor from the meat (before slaughter). That way they can sell more meat to the usual price.

It talks a lot about this in the area where we live, and people are wondering if this is healthy.

Is there anyone who knows more about this, or is this like so much else down here, just BS

Finding that excuse a bit hard to swallow.... excuse the pun.

But I am sure you are aware that the EU is pushing to prohibit surgical castration of males as of next year. Due to this there is much research going on regarding the reduction of boar taint. Mostly through breeding lines, diet, immunocastration, medication and slaughter practices. I really can't imagine that CP have a magic injection or that even they have enough of these unproductive boars to seriously flood the market. In the past I believe that they have just been sold to unwitting small farmers at better than live weight price anyway.... of course this may just be a vicious and unjust rumour....

I will ask the manager of the CP farm near me next time I see him.

[billd766]

Bill,

It has been mentioned before, but for what it is worth, check out the local market potential first. Who will buy these pigs? Yes, only 10 but you need to get rid of them. I doubt 10 is enough to justify the capital investment, or to cover costs if labour is included.

I have to agree with IA here.

I finally got to see my mate yesterday and he said that he will leave it all to his wife to sort out.

All this is 3rd hand.

Her brother seemingly has a breeding sow that gives about 17 to 20 piglets at a time so they don't need to buy piglets in.

The family are part of a Thai co-operative system of anywhere between 500 and 2,000 members so their food cost are fairly small as against retail food prices.

The co-op supplies the food, can supply piglets and also has a collection of vets available as well.

The last lot of pigs the family sold they told him that they made 150,000 baht about every 4 months. He says they told him it was net profit.

To my mind if they had only sold 20 pigs to the co-op at an average of 100kg each pig that would give the farmgate price at around 75 baht/kg.

Reading this thread and the prices quoted here I find that hard to believe because it is supposedly net price without the food costs.

I figure that IF they paid say 4,000 baht to feed the pig and it came free from the sow then their profit would be (at 75 baht/kg) down to about 70,000 baht on the 20 pigs or 3,500 baht per average 100 kg pig and I really can't see that as correct though it is a nice reasonable profit.

If anyone can make some sense from this can they let me know and also if I have gone wrong somewhere.

The province is Khampaeng Phet.

Regards

Bill

[IsaanAussie]

17 to 20 piglets per litter? Really? I don't think so. Best I ever had was one litter of 16 and that was a total surprise. Normal average for me at weaning was 10.

150,000 baht per batch is believable. Last time I looked growing under contract to one of the BIG GUYS was returning about 5 baht per kg, or 500baht per 100kg finished pig.A batch of 300 and bingo. (The BG supply piglets, feed and medicals) You have to supply the labour and facility costs.

[nutterz64]

Bill,

It has been mentioned before, but for what it is worth, check out the local market potential first. Who will buy these pigs? Yes, only 10 but you need to get rid of them. I doubt 10 is enough to justify the capital investment, or to cover costs if labour is included.

I have to agree with IA here.

I finally got to see my mate yesterday and he said that he will leave it all to his wife to sort out.

All this is 3rd hand.

Her brother seemingly has a breeding sow that gives about 17 to 20 piglets at a time so they don't need to buy piglets in.

The family are part of a Thai co-operative system of anywhere between 500 and 2,000 members so their food cost are fairly small as against retail food prices.

The co-op supplies the food, can supply piglets and also has a collection of vets available as well.

The last lot of pigs the family sold they told him that they made 150,000 baht about every 4 months. He says they told him it was net profit.

To my mind if they had only sold 20 pigs to the co-op at an average of 100kg each pig that would give the farmgate price at around 75 baht/kg.

Reading this thread and the prices quoted here I find that hard to believe because it is supposedly net price without the food costs.

I figure that IF they paid say 4,000 baht to feed the pig and it came free from the sow then their profit would be (at 75 baht/kg) down to about 70,000 baht on the 20 pigs or 3,500 baht per average 100 kg pig and I really can't see that as correct though it is a nice reasonable profit.

If anyone can make some sense from this can they let me know and also if I have gone wrong somewhere.

The province is Khampaeng Phet.

Regards

Bill

Bill, I am writing this because many new readers might read this and get starry eyed about the figures quoted.

As the venerable IA has pointed out, 20 "LIVE" piglets growing to maturity is stretching the imagination a bit. A sow giving birth to 15 or 16 is not uncommon but typically some would be born dead or would die in the first 12 to 72 hours. A further reality check is that with only one Sow they are not likely to be set up with all the equipment, medications and know-how to see all these piglets past the first 24 hours. Secondly, most if not all of the piglets would be relatively small therefore would have small weaning weights and would have to be kept and fed for a long time to get an average weight of 100kgs.

Every 4 months..... not possible. The sow is pregnant for 115 days, then needs to lactate for about 21 -28 days and then if you are lucky she will mate again in 5 to 7 days. Now we have to feed and care for the weaners from the first batch. You need about 150 days to get to sale weight and depending on the starting weight, quality and quantity of feed, and genetics you might need 165+ to average 100kgs in a typical batch. I would postulate that a batch containing 20 from one sow would need much longer to average 100kgs given the likely starting weights I mentioned above.

There also seems to be confusion here with many locals about net and gross profit. "...yes, after I have fed them I got 150,000 bt..." Literally this is correct but the cost of feed has not been deducted because that has already been spent so now we have 150,000 back.

Bill, your numbers were the only ones that made sense if you accept they sold 20 pigs. Your figures are about right; they could have got 75 baht/kg depending when they sold, yes 4000bt would be about right in food costs, yes 70,000 baht would be a nice net profit. However to do this with one sow is not reproducible if it happened at all.

Anyway, just wanted to throw my 2 bobs worth in and give you a clear picture of realities with breeding your own pigs. A good target is 10 weaned piglets per sow and sometimes you will fail to hit that.

Not trying to have a go at you or your wife here but I have learnt to be very careful about what I hear from family and friends here. Often they are reluctant to ask probing questions of other family and friends and there is also the "Lost in Translation" aspect as well.

But sometimes us falangs.... "Tink too mutch"

Peter

[billd766]

Bill,

It has been mentioned before, but for what it is worth, check out the local market potential first. Who will buy these pigs? Yes, only 10 but you need to get rid of them. I doubt 10 is enough to justify the capital investment, or to cover costs if labour is included.

I have to agree with IA here.

I finally got to see my mate yesterday and he said that he will leave it all to his wife to sort out.

All this is 3rd hand.

Her brother seemingly has a breeding sow that gives about 17 to 20 piglets at a time so they don't need to buy piglets in.

The family are part of a Thai co-operative system of anywhere between 500 and 2,000 members so their food cost are fairly small as against retail food prices.

The co-op supplies the food, can supply piglets and also has a collection of vets available as well.

The last lot of pigs the family sold they told him that they made 150,000 baht about every 4 months. He says they told him it was net profit.

To my mind if they had only sold 20 pigs to the co-op at an average of 100kg each pig that would give the farmgate price at around 75 baht/kg.

Reading this thread and the prices quoted here I find that hard to believe because it is supposedly net price without the food costs.

I figure that IF they paid say 4,000 baht to feed the pig and it came free from the sow then their profit would be (at 75 baht/kg) down to about 70,000 baht on the 20 pigs or 3,500 baht per average 100 kg pig and I really can't see that as correct though it is a nice reasonable profit.

If anyone can make some sense from this can they let me know and also if I have gone wrong somewhere.

The province is Khampaeng Phet.

Regards

Bill

Bill, I am writing this because many new readers might read this and get starry eyed about the figures quoted.

As the venerable IA has pointed out, 20 "LIVE" piglets growing to maturity is stretching the imagination a bit. A sow giving birth to 15 or 16 is not uncommon but typically some would be born dead or would die in the first 12 to 72 hours. A further reality check is that with only one Sow they are not likely to be set up with all the equipment, medications and know-how to see all these piglets past the first 24 hours. Secondly, most if not all of the piglets would be relatively small therefore would have small weaning weights and would have to be kept and fed for a long time to get an average weight of 100kgs.

Every 4 months..... not possible. The sow is pregnant for 115 days, then needs to lactate for about 21 -28 days and then if you are lucky she will mate again in 5 to 7 days. Now we have to feed and care for the weaners from the first batch. You need about 150 days to get to sale weight and depending on the starting weight, quality and quantity of feed, and genetics you might need 165+ to average 100kgs in a typical batch. I would postulate that a batch containing 20 from one sow would need much longer to average 100kgs given the likely starting weights I mentioned above.

There also seems to be confusion here with many locals about net and gross profit. "...yes, after I have fed them I got 150,000 bt..." Literally this is correct but the cost of feed has not been deducted because that has already been spent so now we have 150,000 back.

Bill, your numbers were the only ones that made sense if you accept they sold 20 pigs. Your figures are about right; they could have got 75 baht/kg depending when they sold, yes 4000bt would be about right in food costs, yes 70,000 baht would be a nice net profit. However to do this with one sow is not reproducible if it happened at all.

Anyway, just wanted to throw my 2 bobs worth in and give you a clear picture of realities with breeding your own pigs. A good target is 10 weaned piglets per sow and sometimes you will fail to hit that.

Not trying to have a go at you or your wife here but I have learnt to be very careful about what I hear from family and friends here. Often they are reluctant to ask probing questions of other family and friends and there is also the "Lost in Translation" aspect as well.

But sometimes us falangs.... "Tink too mutch"

Peter

Hi Peter I agree with you.

Quite a few years ago I thought and did some forward planning for running a 40 pig unit, buying in 10 piglets a month with 10 per sty and feeding them up to the 100 kgs so that after 4 months of outgoings I would start to get some return.

I knew from day 1 that as I knew next to nothing about it and neither did my wife we would run into quite a few problems.

This was about 5 or 6 years ago when I was a relatively spry 64 year old and my wife a young 43. She wasn't really interested and though we had and still have the land available I put my business head on and figured at best I may make 20,000 baht a month at worst I could lose that much and more and be stuck with an empty pig farm that was of no use to man nor beast.

I admire you guys out there who are doing it and making a fair amount of income but to me it is a younger mans game and you need a lot of upfront money and the ability to keep going in good times and bad. If it was that easy everybody would be doing it and nobody would make any money.

I regretfully filed my plans into the recycle bin.

I wish you all the best of luck.

Edited October 15, 2014 by billd766

[billd766]

Double post. Sorry

Edited October 15, 2014 by billd766

[kiwi kev]

Good to see so many posts lately my questin is what criteria do you experienced guys use to wean piglets is an age or weight thing or a mixture of the two thanks in advance

[pigeonjake]

hi kev

most wean at 4 weeks,

gives them a good start, and they get plenty of goodness from there mum and imunity from some things,

jake

[pigeonjake]

hi kev

most wean at 4 weeks,

gives them a good start, and they get plenty of goodness from there mum and imunity from some things,

jake

i will add to this though,

that after 2 weeks you should put some creap feed in for the piglets,(starter feed)

put it were the sow cant get to it as its expencive, also have a low drinker so they can get some water and get used to the drinkers,

good luck with your piglets,

[kiwi kev]

Thanks jake hadnt thought about the water

[pigeonjake]

yes mate, allways put a low drinker in, that way they will get used to using the drinkers ready for when you move them,

its all tricks we all had to learn,,lol

[nutterz64]

Good to see so many posts lately my questin is what criteria do you experienced guys use to wean piglets is an age or weight thing or a mixture of the two thanks in advance

KK, here is an interesting article on weaning age on the Pig333 site.

http://www.pig333.com/what_the_experts_say/what-is-the-best-age-for-weaning-piglets-1-3_1566/

We generally wean at 28 days but the last batch we weaned at 26 because the piglets were large and the sow was struggling to keep up the milk supply. We had introduced creap feed at about 10days old so the change was relatively easy for them. That litter (12 Pure Landrace) is going great guns.

Cheers

Peter

[OBCMO]

Hi,

I think our fellow members justified in great details how making money with pigs in Thailand could turn out. I have nothing to add.

I have tried it out in several areas. I have lost like 2M baht already. Common thing about them is that when we initially talked about it, it was all good. Every thai was always very positive about the case no matter if they were doing the business or not. Later in many cases I realised people talking to me had something to win if I take the path. Now after years I have learned it is not easy to make profit. You can run the business but making money is another story. So you must go through the business plan several times. This forum is the best what comes to pigs. Excellent skills and very good attitude from experts.

The investment, not matter how ugly farm is, will have value for the one owning the land. I think land is always good investment. Unfortunately thai law prevents us to own the land. However the are ways to deal with that like setting up a company. What I am trying to say is that even small setup can be fun and if not successful, it will still have value and not total loss.

We are still trying to get standard farm status. Apparently it will take like 6 months including training. Someone mentioned in order to do that we must have waste management and pay taxes. We have small biogas system now but we will upgrade it. It will cost about 250k. I have my own company limited in Thailand so taxes are covered as well. We are trying fo find cheaper feed and latest info is that we could buy directly from factories but we should buy like 1600 bags per month. That would mean ramping up from 100 to 1000 animals. Unfortunately I did not get info about price, which is main thing here. It also shows a little about Thai thinking. Why to call the factory? To get contract details or price? I think we as farmers could work together to get cheaper feed for all of us. I can arrange transportation of the feed.

Anyways, our farm is empty and waiting for 100-150 piglets. If any of you have piglets or have good contacts to a quality farm I, we are interested. We are in Chaiyaphum province.

Regards,

OBCMO

[pigeonjake]

im not being funny,

i would be the first to try and help anyone on here if i could,

BUT, there is no way i would tell you were i buy my piglets from, im away to get 60 tomorow, i get them for 1000bht to 1300bht depending on size,

but like i say i wouldnt tell anyone, im in this game as a bussines and i wouldnt want you going to my contact and saying ill buy 100 a month and pay you more then jake,,

as for feed i get mine direct from the factory and save just on my creep feed over 200bht a bag, on the other number feed it goes between 200bht to 87bht saving on what i was paying for sunfeed feed from the feed shop,

but these are things you have to sort out, its took me a lot of time and a great deal of hard work for us to be in the possition we are in now, we have buyers waiting for our pigs as tey no they get fed right and are good,

last time i was away mac my wife was dealing with a buyer who came baught the pigs she had ready, and left a 10,000bht deposit on the next lot,

it is hard work, but its a good living, there is money to be made in pigs, but you have to have contacts to get your piglets every month also your feed at a good price,

as for your pens, i do my own so its only materials as my dad was a builder so i can lay blocks,

my wife is a great help to me, not only when im away working my rotation but all the time, she is into our farm just as much as i am,, that is also what you must have the suport of your wife,

just my thoughts

jake

[OBCMO]

Hello,

@Jake, this message was not only for you and I am not after piglets you get, The fact that numbers you provide to this forum is nothing we can confirm. It is good that you can do business with those but most of us cannot.

Anyway, we are looking for pedigree piglets in Chaiyaphum.

-OBCMO

[pigeonjake]

just one thing,,

i dont tell lies,!!

[thoongfoned]

Hi,

I think our fellow members justified in great details how making money with pigs in Thailand could turn out. I have nothing to add.

I have tried it out in several areas. I have lost like 2M baht already. Common thing about them is that when we initially talked about it, it was all good. Every thai was always very positive about the case no matter if they were doing the business or not. Later in many cases I realised people talking to me had something to win if I take the path. Now after years I have learned it is not easy to make profit. You can run the business but making money is another story. So you must go through the business plan several times. This forum is the best what comes to pigs. Excellent skills and very good attitude from experts.

The investment, not matter how ugly farm is, will have value for the one owning the land. I think land is always good investment. Unfortunately thai law prevents us to own the land. However the are ways to deal with that like setting up a company. What I am trying to say is that even small setup can be fun and if not successful, it will still have value and not total loss.

We are still trying to get standard farm status. Apparently it will take like 6 months including training. Someone mentioned in order to do that we must have waste management and pay taxes. We have small biogas system now but we will upgrade it. It will cost about 250k. I have my own company limited in Thailand so taxes are covered as well. We are trying fo find cheaper feed and latest info is that we could buy directly from factories but we should buy like 1600 bags per month. That would mean ramping up from 100 to 1000 animals. Unfortunately I did not get info about price, which is main thing here. It also shows a little about Thai thinking. Why to call the factory? To get contract details or price? I think we as farmers could work together to get cheaper feed for all of us. I can arrange transportation of the feed.

Anyways, our farm is empty and waiting for 100-150 piglets. If any of you have piglets or have good contacts to a quality farm I, we are interested. We are in Chaiyaphum province.

Regards,

OBMO

hi this "standard farm status" thingy. not sure it will be worth all the hoop jumping to get. wife has farm that is "GMP" inspected ect..... fellas from udon thani government office ect... come out once a year have a look about say yes or no, its a standards level inspection, environment, waste mainly, hygiene,also take food away to be tested. I always pick holes and say the standards should be set higher ( guy speaks perfect English) but he says this is Thailand don't have to worry too much. also the farm has local amper inspections and masses of paper work to do. daily logs on how much water in and out ect, and again very basic inspections for animal welfare and environmental issues, but mainly with this one its paper work, this gets submitted every 15 days or so. wife does all this cos she has to.......... at the local level its more work, pen and paper work that is. on a plus note I tell them to just turn up and don't make an appointment so they can really see what happens day to day, but again told no, we will contact you first.

the bio gas thing.......... look at the energy you need to generate to run said tractors or generator, then think how much you should spend on the installation ie size of covered pit, rubber-plastic or cement. look at how long it will take to pay for its self. say with the 150 finishing pigs you will have, how much to you think they can produce in gas? I have seen some very expensive set ups that work well but also some very basic ones that produce the same amount of trapped gas from the same volume of pigs. have at least one aeration pit for the run off from the main covered gas pit, two is better. this way you will have a good system in place for when you have the farm visit.

spending an extra 250 on the gas seems expensive, unless you are buying a large generator, then this is cheap. but make sure your pigs will produce enough gas to warrant all this spending.

find a market for your produce before you buy, or just buy afew and then find your way as you go along. 2m is not small money to have lost already. if you only buy say afew litters at a time it will make the selling a little less hard, ie less volume, look at slaughtering yourself (or family) and get the wife out getting orders for batches of meat. more profit this way........

all the best.

[thoongfoned]

litter sizes. from what I can see in my wifes farm you would be lucky to get 1 out of 100 with a litter of 20 or more. the best we have had is 22 alive, approx. 1,6-1.7kg born weight. would split the litter coz its too many for one mum and she will sit on afew too. any thing above 10 born alive is good, 13 too 14 on every litter is my bench mark but this is a way a way at present.

weaning on a "production level" we average just under 11 per mum over the last 18 months. kg at say 19.5 days would be 5.9 - 6 kg. kept a pig the other week till 28 days (had bad leg) went out at 13.4kg this was cross fostered till 24 days then just on food and water. the bigger the litter does not have to mean piglets born at the 1kg mark, at this weight the piglet does not have a good survival rate, if any. if you average the birth kg at the above .1.6 - 1.7 you can produce a very good pig in your weaning window. piglets that are born heavy say near or above the 2kg mark, the mum could have a long labour ( still born ect..) and will not always make the extra weight at weaning, on litters above ten born alive.

if only we could wean 13- 14 on every mum.........................

[pigeonjake]

Hello,

@Jake, this message was not only for you and I am not after piglets you get, The fact that numbers you provide to this forum is nothing we can confirm. It is good that you can do business with those but most of us cannot.

Anyway, we are looking for pedigree piglets in Chaiyaphum.

-OBCMO

and as for wanting to buy pedigree pigslets,

thais want to eat them not show them, and you will find 2 or 3 blood will do better then pedigree,

its called hybred vigor,

2 pedigree pigs crossed produce this,

but there you go each to there own, we do ok as we are

[pigeonjake]

we didnt get 60 we got 45, for a total of 46,700bht

i can go back tomorow and get some bigger ones @ 1,700 bht each, but i havnt made my mind up yet, ill ring in the morning first thing as they keep them till ive been as i get first pick,

they look a good lot all eating and from what ive seen this afternoon most have found the drinkers,

jake

[IsaanAussie]

Nice even batch of piglets Jake. For that money you are on a good thing. I wouldn't share that source either. Great to see all the effort you and your wife have put in paying off. Keep it up.

[pigeonjake]

hi I/A

nice to see you about,

yes i agree with you,

there is 39 just a little bit bigger then another 6, they gave us the 6 smaller ones as a present,

i was picking through them looking for what i thought were the strongest,

i love it when ive got a new batch here, as for the first few days they are so comical, as im watching them more for the first few days i get to see some right carictors,and goings on,lol,

after a few weeks they will then be split up into batches and go in there seperate pens,

I/A,

can i ask you a question while your about,?

whats your thoughts on the sun, i mean getting into the pens,

when i was in the uk, and very very much into pigeon racing, i had wire doors behind my main doors to let the sun into the loft,

with this thought the nes pens i had built of our barn i left open to the sun in the morning, and them 2 pens of pigs are the best i have ever reared, could be that i just got lucky with a few pigs, but there is 24 of them in 2 pens and at just over 3 months well over 80 kilo,

ive watched them lay in the sun, then move into the shade of the front wall,

i know that the sun is the onlt source of vitimin D,

youll notice dogs laying in the sun, animals arnt daft we can learn so much just by observation,

them pigs will be going in a couple of weeks, so this will give me a good chance to put some into them pens and some into some of the ones that dont get the sun,

take care

jake

[IsaanAussie]

Hi Jake,

My sty has 1.2metre roof overhangs (should have been wider). So the southern side does let a little sun in, about a metre I suppose. There should be plenty of light but not much direct sun. Two reasons, first pigs sleep about 80% of the time so if they are lying in the sun they may well get sunburnt. Second the sun will heat the floor and the pigs and with overnight temperature over 20 degrees the sty stays hotter. Sows should be at or under that temp. Hot finisher pigs don't eat as much simply because they can't get rid of the energy component of their feed, hence they grow slower. Piglets should be about 30C so for them it is OK.

So put the young pigs in the "sunroom" and then move them into the cooler pens later would be my suggestion.

[pigeonjake]

thanks for that mate,

they dont get really really sunny as there is bannana trees in front of the pens, as pic i took the other week of the rains coming and raining me off from building a new barn and duck shed,

thanks again

jake,

ps pic of the rain and bannana trees,also my new project, yes i do all the work myself alone, i get mac my wife to help if i want something holding,,

no not that,, you dirty minded sods,,lol

ps i even made my own farrowing crates,,as pic

[revar]

had a bad run with last 2 litters. sow was 2days late and couldnt get piglet out. got vet out of bed (2am) he spend 5 hours getting 2 out. next day another vet tried to get the now dead piglets still inside out. but the head came of the first. evening sow died too.

sow wasnt overweight. the piglets were just to big to get out. when slaughtered some heads were pigger then hole in pelvis.

Next day another sow got 2 healthy and 6 mummified piglets. only good thing is she got enoufh milk for the two piglets of the first one.

1nov. next 2 sows due. crossing my fingers.

[pigeonjake]

hi raver,

well i hope you have better luck with your next 2 mate,

[thoongfoned]

had a bad run with last 2 litters. sow was 2days late and couldnt get piglet out. got vet out of bed (2am) he spend 5 hours getting 2 out. next day another vet tried to get the now dead piglets still inside out. but the head came of the first. evening sow died too.

sow wasnt overweight. the piglets were just to big to get out. when slaughtered some heads were pigger then hole in pelvis.

Next day another sow got 2 healthy and 6 mummified piglets. only good thing is she got enoufh milk for the two piglets of the first one.

1nov. next 2 sows due. crossing my fingers.

ravar,

had similar proplems over the past few months. ie small litters that get too big insidethe mum. maybe too much food during the pregnacy, thats what i found anyway. this would be on litters smaller than 10. do you not assist the birthing process if you think there is a problem? after you have done it afew times its easyer to put your hand/ arm in, make sure plenty of clean water and soap to hand, save loads of piglets this way on a daily basis. if the piglets are that big that the sow cannot pass, if you have small hands or the wife has try and get some strong wire inside the womb and put it through the piglets chin/jaw and then pull it out this way, if the piglet comes out alive it will live and heal in time.

i will get the name of some medicine that we use in the farm to induce/bring on the labour at anytime, can be used to bring the sow into heat if you get the timings right. if you see a pig that is late, like the one you mention above it could give the pig the extra ummmph to get the birthing process started and finished.

going back to the first sow that you mentioned i would say she was late because there was not enough pressure from the said piglets to start the labour process, (not large numbers inside)hence she was in limbo for a couple of days and the piglets keep growing and she eats up the energy reserves getting ready to start pushing. just my thoughts...........

good luck with the next couple im sure they will be all good. reduce their food intake three day before they are due.

[thoongfoned]

Lutalyse produced by Pfizer. give 3ml. should see behavoir results within 20 minutes. should deliver within 24hr even with a small litter. ie 7 or under.

Oxytocin synth will helpduring the birthing process and will help stimulate the milk surply. 3ml. give when over fifty percent through the birth. ie after 6 or 7 are born.

the mum that had the mummies, where they black mummies of varying sizes. small too large? if so it could be that the sow had heat stress during the pregnacy. she would have conceived and of june, so it would have been hot during the term. just my thoughts coz i have seen this happen. a shaw sign of a belly full of mummyfied piglets is the mums "milks" will be swivelled and sow will not display signs of a normal pregnacy.ie not producing said hormones.

just my take on things,hope it may be of some help.