Tired Of The Farang Lady Diatribe!

[niall]

I enjoy being called a dinosaur (not quite sure what a dinousar is). Apart from the timescale and the fact I am a homosapien it is a correct analogy for the situation.

For millenniums the system worked. Men and women had defined roles which matched their abilities. Families were formed, children raised and society advanced.

Now in a mere 50 years feminazism has managed to pretty much bring the whole edifice of western society down.

The family has been pretty must destroyed. Marriage is disappearing. Industry is failing and hemorrhaging jobs abroad. Breeding has dropped to way below replacement levels. The sexes are at war.

And what societies are advancing? Could they be the 'traditional' societies where the status quo has been maintained?

The traditional societies will out breed western society within 60 years in most cases from within and that will be the end of feminazism. Nature has a way of protecting and correcting itself.

[ZZZ]

I think I’m the one guilty of stating that a man needs to have his ego stroked. Many seems to have a problem with this so let me explain what I meant by this.

This has absolutely nothing to do with how secure a man is but it makes the difference of him being happy or pissed off.

Boo’s frequent, un-necessary, posts on how self reliant she is makes men pissed off. It’s this constant “bragging” using feminist clichés that makes men pissed off with western women. Most Asian women would never lower themselves to this.

We men are not as stupid as we may look, we know that women are our equal (in many ways superior) but we don’t like to have this constantly crammed down our throats.

This “bragging” make western women look desperate, much less in control and totally insecure.

This “bragging” also hit the inherent evolutionary core of the male being the one providing security and protection.

This “bragging” could be compared with men telling a woman to her face that she looks really fat and ugly as this would hit the evolutionary core instinct of a woman to attract men.

These and other core values will not change in a hurry so we need to learn how to live with them.

We need to understand each other and not just think of ourselves to make it work. We need to stroke each others egos constantly to make life livable.

Just imagine if everyone said exactly what they were thinking all the time???

[khall64au]

I enjoy being called a dinosaur (not quite sure what a dinousar is).  Apart from the timescale and the fact I am a homosapien it is a correct analogy for the situation.

For millenniums the system worked.  Men and women had defined roles which matched their abilities.  Families were formed, children raised and society advanced.

Now in a mere 50 years feminazism has managed to pretty much bring the whole edifice of western society down.

The family has been pretty must destroyed.  Marriage is disappearing.  Industry is failing and hemorrhaging jobs abroad.  Breeding has dropped to way below replacement levels.  The sexes are at war.

And what societies are advancing?  Could they be the 'traditional' societies where the status quo has been maintained?

The traditional societies will out breed western society within 60 years in most cases from within and that will be the end of feminazism.  Nature has a way of protecting and correcting itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Niall,

You don't think that economic pressures and family un-friendly social policies have anything to do with marital breakdowns and lower birthrates .... do you?

Not the story I had in mind... but it illustrates the point.

http://www.media.anglican.com.au/tma/2005/...ilybalance.html

[niall]

And this illustrates mine:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/711656/posts

[OxfordWill]

Boo - By praising your husband when he does something you approve of, you are engaging in the form of ego-sensitivity. Else, why on earth are you praising him if not to portray your approval and congratulate him on something. Its an appeal to his ego, plain and simple.

Sbk - You're reading all sorts of things into what I wrote. Firstly, I am presenting no argument so there is no argument to find flaws in, I'm simply stating my observations. Perhaps the term 'ego' is the problem here - I mean it in the purist sense (aka the actual definition) whereby we refer to the self as a separate entity from the world and other selves. Taking me to task over Freud will lead you to think I am implying that men require their psycho-ego 'massaged', which is not my thought at all.

As you correctly point out, there are many successful relationships between all manner of mixtures of race. A psychologically insecure man is not the same as the man I describe; the man who will respond more positively to a woman who can manage his ego (his 'self') in a warm way. It sounds like in the relationships you describe, the woman such as yourself are doing just that - and this is why you are about to toast your 16th year (congratulations!). I must however take you to task on the issue of ego-handling. One need not be insecure to appreciate a certain sensitivity with matters of the self and soul (the classical 'ego').

A secure man does not need his wife or partner to massage his ego. Just as a secure woman does not need it either.

You must first tell us what you mean by 'secure'. For surely you do not expect us to believe that anybody is entirely secure (i.e. free from insecurities). With that in mind I am charitably assuming you refer to one who does not seek constant or near constant approval from his peers and those close to him, and one who is outwardly confident enough to deal with day to day business in an expected way.

This kind of man will have plenty of insecurities. We all do. If we did not, we wouldn't worry about our hair in the morning. When you ask your husband if you look ok, or indeed when you notice that he hasnt complimented your evening outfit for a while then you are exhibiting your own insecurities. When he compliments you, he is massaging your ego. There is nothing devious about this interaction, it is genuine. My observation is that the Thai women I have come into contact with are better at this kind of interaction with men than the majority of the western women I have come into contact with. But yes, it's an observation and not an argument! (I dont do flaws!)

TripXCore - The insult I refer to, mate, is the bit where you say you cannot have an intelligent discussion with me if I hold this view. Well, it may surprise you that the view I hold here is not mine alone - Reid, Skinner, Wynne, oh and Augustine happen to agree with me. They're quite important, by the way. Free will is pretty much everything except what you define it as in your post. You need to be more careful with these terms, because there are people who make it their business day by day to study them, and it can be offensive to see them thrown around like slang.

Niall - You're saying some important things but dressing them up in a way that is guaranteed to get the ladies biting you. Now I remember you from mangosauce. Your sentiments on the family unit are mirrored in this months 'mind' by Baggini. As the historians know, the west has been on top of the world for merely a blip and soon things will return to 'normal' where asia rules supreme.

ZZZ - You're not insecure just because you appreciate being handled in a sensitive way by women. Boo will have you believe that this is a weakness but I promise it is not. Behind some of the most powerful leaders has been some of the most sensitive and thoughtful women, keeping them afloat.

Really interesting discussion, a rarity for TV!

[Boon Mee]

I enjoy being called a dinosaur (not quite sure what a dinousar is). 

A Dinosaur

[Boo]

Boo will have you believe that this is a weakness but I promise it is not.

Will, you seem to think you know me quite well as when I post something you dont agree with you seem to think you can speak for me??? Curious. , where did I say anything about weakness? I have already told you that I am not a pandering person, am supposed to change my whole being just to make you happy. Aint gonna happen, sorry! And no, I don't agree, if my husband looks nice & I compliment, it isn't massaging his ego it's telling the truth, if he chooses to use that compliment to boost his own ego, up to him but I'm not sitting around thinking of ways to boost him up as he doesn't need it & neither do I but if I WANT to, then I will.

ZZZ, there is no constant bragging but again, if you BOTHER to read my posts then you would see that I am expressing the view that no one should have to stop being who they are just because someone like you doesn't like it. If my posts about how self reliant I am pisses you off, then again tough, don't read em. Do you need anyone in your life to earn money for you, buy you a house, cook your food or clean your clothes, I don't & am very happy for it thanks for asking, as life would be quite difficult if I couldn't but what difference does it make if my father can do all of these things & takes pride in them or me, his daughter. Oh yeah, I forgot, ovaries.

My husband does many things for me cause he wants to not cause I expect him too & I for him, we also have defined roles in our life but they are probably not what you would epect in your relationship but don't presume that you are in the right.

This “bragging” could be compared with men telling a woman to her face that she looks really fat and ugly as this would hit the evolutionary core instinct of a woman to attract men.

Don't know where you get this from but as from reading your posts I see we have complety differering views, so I'l just say, errr

[OxfordWill]

edit: managed to mess up the reply, sorry!

Edited July 25, 2005 by OxfordWill

[OxfordWill]

Which is why I married a man that has his ego in tact.

Forgive me Boo if I have misunderstood you, but it seems here and elsewhere that you are implying that if a man admits to wanting his ego massaged (as ZZZ, the poster in question, did) then he is somehow 'broken' or in the least 'weakened', unlike your husband who is 'in tact'.

[Boo]

no, just that mine has a full ego that doesn't need boosting, nothing about being broken but if thats how you read it

[OxfordWill]

Yes it was rather, but I see I misunderstood you and so I fully retract the offending comment!

[Boo]

I'm wondering if we have different views on what is considered massaging ego?

I don't veiw giving a compliment or expressing a like for someone as ego boosting as I do it in a "pure" way with sincerity. I wouldn't just tell my friend she looked great in something if she didn't but frequently compliment other women & men on their hair or clothes or something. If that is ego boosting then great for them but that wasn't my intention, I only intend to genuinely compliment, which to me are two different things?

What I am getting from ZZZ for example is that if a women didn't constantly massage his ego then he would feel she was failing in some way regardless if she meant it or not. & my one sincere compliment wouldn't be good enough in comparison to 10 fake ones.

[OxfordWill]

Well, perhaps we need to consider what we are doing with a compliment. What is the purpose, why do we compliment at all? I'm not so sure that giving an ego boost is not a pure or genuine thing, or that it is much different to a compliment. If it smells like a duck, sounds like a duck...you get the picture. The term 'ego boost' is not dirty, to my ears.

[Boo]

must be a matter of perspective then

[ZZZ]

Yes Boo, think compliment when you read “ego boost” even if you can boost someone’s ego in many other ways. I do mean something sincere but I also mean something that is done or said specifically for the purpose of boosting someone’s ego (complementing), not just as idle chatter just to say something as your complements must be as they are not meant to boost anyone’s ego, not sure how a compliment could not boast your ego?

Anyway, this ego boosting (complimenting) should of course be mutual and sincere.

ZZZ, there is no constant bragging but again, if you BOTHER to read my posts then you would see that I am expressing the view that no one should have to stop being who they are just because someone like you doesn't like it. If my posts about how self reliant I am pisses you off, then again tough, don't read em.

Your post on how self reliant you are do come out as bragging. Please state at the begining of your posts if it's more bragging so I can stop reading them before it's to late.

You say that you are expressing the view that no one should have to stop being who they are just because someone like me doesn't like it. I do NOT agree with this there is always room for improvements, even for you. If you have a bad habit, like bragging, you could learn to stop this, for your own sake.

Do you need anyone in your life to earn money for you, buy you a house, cook your food or clean your clothes, I don't & am very happy for it thanks for asking, as life would be quite difficult if I couldn't.

I do not need anyone for these things as it is but I would be perfectly ok with that if that was the case. We all rely on each other and if you can not trust anyone enough to rely on him that's your problem.

This “bragging” could be compared with men telling a woman to her face that she looks really fat and ugly as this would hit the evolutionary core instinct of a woman to attract men.

Don't know where you get this from but as from reading your posts I see we have complety differering views, so I'l just say, errr

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you asking me where I got that women wants to attract men from ????????

Silly me, maybe I'm mistaken.

[thaibebop]

Wow, this post has grown since I last looked at it. I have not read everything up to this point, but what I have read......

Every time you meet someone new, it is a new experience. Even thought we all share things in common everybody is different. And that is the joy of life.

My Grandfather was a wine collector. He lived his life the same way that he loved his wine, for the experience of it. Before I was old enough to drink he let me smell the wine and ask me what I smelled. This is how I live my life. My last girlfreind was white, bad relationship, doesn't mean white women are bad. Fell in love with my wife not because she is Thai, but because she smelled good!

Never bring your bags with you. An old Zen story talks about a monk carry a women over a creek so she won't get wet and his student asks him "Aren't we not suppose to touch women, master" The monk tells him "I left her at the river why are you still carrying her?"

Judge people by what they do, not what others have done. And remember, the first time you meet, it's a clean slate. Everyone can be beautiful if given the chance.

[niall]

'Everyone can be beautiful if given the chance.'

Er... Pol Pot, Stalin, Andrea Dworkin?

[OxfordWill]

I heard Stalin had a very fetching hat.

But seriously, touching post thaibebop, before that last bit

[Jeff1]

Good post White Shiva , I actually do know what you mean .

I also want to say that this thread has been a great source of amusement . I do understand some mens thinking due to the fact that they like I could have had a nasty breakup with a farang lady . NOW , that does not make them all bad . Actually they for the most part , are a better quality of person than I am . I have loved them like there were no other before & some I still love as friends. I feel if you encounter someone that has a problem with you because your a Farang lady in Thailand then , you should consider the source . Some people are not nice & some are not fair . It is life . Dont worry , be happy

[TRIPxCORE]

TripXCore - The insult I refer to, mate, is the bit where you say you cannot have an intelligent discussion with me if I hold this view. Well, it may surprise you that the view I hold here is not mine alone - Reid, Skinner, Wynne, oh and Augustine happen to agree with me. They're quite important, by the way. Free will is pretty much everything except what you define it as in your post. You need to be more careful with these terms, because there are people who make it their business day by day to study them, and it can be offensive to see them thrown around like slang.

If you take that as an insult, then I apologize but it wasn't meant as one. In my mind, it's incredibly difficult to hold a conversation with a person that doesn't believe I have the right to make up my own mind. Whether I like it or not, whether I agree with it or not, I feel every person has the right to feel how they want to feel. Never will I say that a person's opinion isn't valid based on the assumption, by myself, that they haven't studied the topic well enough.

You and I, we agree to disagree then. Let's leave it at that. No hard feelings.

[OlRedEyes]

So, redeyes, are you saying men are insecure and need their egos boosted by women in order to feel manly? I disagree, I think there are many men secure enough in themselves to not need constant approbation from a woman in order to feel important.

SBK I agree there are many men who don't need their egos boosted by a woman. But again, the poster was generalising. In doing this, one would talk about the trend within the majority. I would agree that in general, men need their egos boosted. And this does not neccesarily mean approbation from a woman. It could be a prize to put on the mantlepiece (sp) to show off to his rivals.. read mates.

[OlRedEyes]

This thread has sadly degraded into pretty much same same.

One thing that strikes me reading through the thread is that there are a few guys with an arrogant attitude, while most ladies seem to have it as standard. I've always believed arrogance and stupidity go hand in hand.

In a relationship, I look for a partnership, not a competition. The world out there is the competition, I do not want to come home to one.

I get the feeling from a few female posters that they have an excess of 'pride' of what they have achieved. Why? Did you not believe in yourself and your ability to start off with? Basically an overinflated ego is a pointer to underlying self-doubt.

Virtually every reply, when the post was not complimentary, by a female was dripping with bitchiness. If you cannot see this, then you will *never* understand why so many men are searching for alternatives.

Way back in the late sixties and early seventies. some notable books had already been written on the subject of the coming attack on the natural male role. And anybody who wants to expound that it is not a natural biological instinct in the male to dominate, (wow.. i'll get flack for that, but it does not mean harshly dominate), and protect has lost all connection to nature. In 50 years is it is impossible for the human male to 'evolve' into acceptance of an overbearing, dominant female. The young guys seem to be able to accept this a bit better, but I wonder for how long. My feeling is it is 'acceptance' driven by social engineering, sitting on a knife edge.

Their biological coding has not yet changed, and will come to the fore as they age.

Now i've sprouted enough cr*p. Peace. Nobody thinks women are brainless serfs anymore. Take the chip off the shoulder, smile and be pleasant, discuss with consideration, use the brains you have, and you will recieve respect and admiration, which is what you seek, even though your'e gonna scream it aint so.

[Elliot]

I am getting so tired of the biased and opinionated attacks on farang women... not just on this forum but in Thailand's farang community-in-general!

try not to take it so personally...most of the expat farang men are here because, for whatever reason, they couldnt get a farang woman to put up with them in their own countries...they come here because they hear stories about sweet, submissive thai women who will clean their house, cook their meals and have endless high powered sex...

of course after they're here a few months and have been "snagged" by a thai girlfriend, they realize the truth, but, but hey its cheaper to live here so why go home?

and if you look around, you'll see just as many harsh words about thai women and their shenanigans as you do about farang women and their strength and independance...

[Dead_Elvis]

This thread has sadly degraded into pretty much same same.

One thing that strikes me reading through the thread is that there are a few guys with an arrogant attitude, while most ladies seem to have it as standard. I've always believed arrogance and stupidity go hand in hand.

In a relationship, I look for a partnership, not a competition. The world out there is the competition, I do not want to come home to one.

I get the feeling from a few female posters that they have an excess of 'pride' of what they have achieved. Why? Did you not believe in yourself and your ability to start off with? Basically an overinflated ego is a pointer to underlying self-doubt.

Virtually every reply, when the post was not complimentary, by a female was dripping with bitchiness. If you cannot see this, then you will *never* understand why so many men are searching for alternatives.

Way back in the late sixties and early seventies. some notable books had already been written on the subject of the coming attack on the natural male role. And anybody who wants to expound that it is not a natural biological instinct in the male to dominate, (wow.. i'll get flack for that, but it does not mean harshly dominate), and protect has lost all connection to nature. In 50 years is it is impossible for the human male to 'evolve' into acceptance of an overbearing, dominant female. The young guys seem to be able to accept this a bit better, but I wonder for how long. My feeling is it is 'acceptance' driven by social engineering, sitting on a knife edge.

Their biological coding has not yet changed, and will come to the fore as they age.

Now i've sprouted enough cr*p. Peace. Nobody thinks women are brainless serfs anymore. Take the chip off the shoulder, smile and be pleasant, discuss with consideration, use the brains you have, and you will recieve respect and admiration, which is what you seek, even though your'e gonna scream it aint so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It looks like the ladies aren't the only ones who can be bitchy.

You're hardly one to talk about chips on shoulders old boy.

Thanks kindly for the laugh.

[robitusson]

True, there is a lot of hostility towards Farang women. And, as several replies have pointed out, there is a lot of hostility towards Farang men and their Thai ladies from Farangs, particularly the old men with their young Thai counterparts.

Age discrimination is the real prejudice left in Western society now. I have had ordinarily open-minded and somewhat liberal friends visit Thailand and declare how 'disgusting' the sight of an inter-generational couple is. This is not women commenting on this but both sexes. Though it is usually Farang men on the recieving end of this prejudice. If someone commented on a black male and a white woman as being disgusting, how would this be recieved? Obviously a lot of these couples are bar-girl/ customer relationships but this is a real and prevalent prejudice amongst Farang visitors to the kingdom and, as I said, because Farang males are usually the older party, it is usually Farang women who display this narrow-mindedness, which is what it is.

Also regardless of how insensitively the Farang men may express their disillusionment with Western females, some of the grievances are very valid and deserved and both sides of Farang societies would do well to take note. Farang men would rather live away from their home country and marry here than do it at home with their own country-women do it for reasons they feel are legitimate. The over-riding emphasis is the fact that Western men and Western women see each other as in conflict with the other gender. This is a real problem which we both share.

[TokyoT]

To address the OP:

I think that you will find many (not all) of the farang men that bash farang women have been hurt or felt they were mistreated by farang women in the past.

Some probably were in relationships with real b*tches and sorry to say those b*tches have turned that guy sour on western women.

Other men are a**holes who treated the farang women poorly and received poor treatment in return. As people generally find it difficult to admit the fault lies within themselves they blame the farang women.

So for one reason or another they have had a difficult time with farang women and now hold a grudge against them. Sometimes it is truly a farang women’s fault, sometimes it is the mans own fault. Either way bad experiences can sour a persons view.

[sbk]

It is the double standards that tend to annoy most women (and I will include Thai women in this because the ones I know tell me things they won't tell any man). What is bold in a man is bragging in a woman, what is cutting in a man is b!tchy in a woman. What is pride in a man is arrogance in a woman.

Frankly, many of the men's posts come off to me as bragging, b!tchy and arrogant.

[donna]

Wow. What a debate. This has to be the hottest topic since DJPat's Backpacker one!

Let me first state that I do not necessarily consider myself to be a feminist, but I DO believe in equality.

OK. I've sat on the sidelines for some time on this issue, and won't double up on what has already been said.

But there is a big difference between 'us farang women' and our Thai sisters. In school, we are taught to speak up and be heard. If we disagree with the teacher, we are taught to debate and get it out into the open. In a Thai school, though, they are not taught to challenge the teachers. What the teacher says is right, and that's that. This has the potential (obviously) to set the tone for the rest of our/their lives.

When us farang women have a problem, we like to talk about it and maybe thrash it out. Then it's forgotten. Dealt with. Over and done with. Thais are taught to keep it all inside and not to say anything for fear of losing face. (Yes, I AM generalising - please don't jump down my throat for this).

Now. Compared to the west, how many times have you read in the paper over here about a Thai woman cutting off their partners 'member' and discarding it?

Does it make sense to talk about things, or keep it all inside and, one fateful day, explode?

This MAY seem off topic, but it isn't really.

I have MANY Thai friends, both male and female. Since this topic started I have spoken to a couple of them about it, and they agree with my points. Many of them may not actually be able to do it, but many wish that they could discuss things with their partners and clear the air.

For those of you who think we are looking down at you when you are walking along with your girlfriend, we are probably not. I don't care who you go out with, or how old she is (as long as it's legal). Chances are we are checking out anything we would normally check out when a couple walks by. Jeez. Usually it's clothes, shoes, a haircut or even a handbag. Normally, I don't like the couple to feel that I am checking them out, so I consciously DON'T look at them. Maybe that makes you feel uncomfortable, but it is meant to have the opposite effect.

For those who say everything has changed in the past 50 years, so what? That's progress. It's done. We have to deal with it. Not all of us have to like everything that has changed. Some are for the better, and some are for the worst.

Rant over.

[khall64au]

And this illustrates mine:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/711656/posts

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Niall,

Again, in a broader, non-emotional argument here is a bit of insight from the past 50 or more years since you are into history of men and women's roles in society.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1998/334/334p8.htm

[Sir Burr]

...most of the expat farang men are here because, for whatever reason, they couldnt get a farang woman to put up with them in their own countries...

What an idiotic statement. Right up there with "most farang women are ball-busting feminazis".

See post #13.

Edited July 26, 2005 by Sir Burr