Shocking Levels Of Graft In Thailand

[ableguy]

Any large reduction in corruption will require a mind set change in society and aggressive enforcement of laws. It would be a decade(s) long change. Right now society at large seems to consider corruption as a bad thing, but at the same time, have the feeling they can do nothing about it.

The government cracking down on corruption by rooting out corrupt government officials in a very open public campaign might be a good start....and this is not to imply there is not plenty of corruption in the private sector also. But the government needs to start cleaning its own house before it tries to focus on cleaning up the private sector house. When the private sector sees the government cleaning its own house, the private sector will start doing some cleaning on its own.

Ain't no easy or quick answers to greatly reducing corruption...but answers do exists...and the answers will probably take a generation or more to implement.

If the private people tried to do some cleaning on its own, their would be an upsurge in death by gunshot in the private sector, fact money talks guns rule.

[ableguy]

The end of corruption in Thailand must start at the top.. A lofty notion, but impractible as I anticipate 90%+ of positions would be vacated and the country would then grind to a halt.

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

So I can't imagine how one would ever get rid of corruption so ingrained into everything and every day life - but it's been done before, right?

Check out the size .

[Deeral]

The end of corruption in Thailand must start at the top.. A lofty notion, but impractible as I anticipate 90%+ of positions would be vacated and the country would then grind to a halt.

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

So I can't imagine how one would ever get rid of corruption so ingrained into everything and every day life - but it's been done before, right?

Corruption can be brought to it's knees very quickly.

BUT NOT FROM THE TOP!

A few years ago a journalist (i think it was) urged the Thai people to stop paying the police their regular "tips" for just one day.

I can't remember what happened to her ...... was she killed?

The point is that if the Thai people did this for one day the entire system of corruption graft and nepotism would collapse.

So long as the country thinks it is acceptable for an officer of the law to stop anyone he/she likes and demand money for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, corruption will continue.

Singapore reduced corruption very quickly but they are not the same as Thailand....size and the nature of corruption here make it different.

As sea change in public opinion and above all public tolerance/acceptance of this sort of thing is called for.half the time the general public don't realise they are coalescing with corruption.they think it is acceptable to give public servants "gifts" for easing their progress through a bureaucratic process or giving someone a free holiday or 10% kickback when they award you a contract.

look at the state of the roads in thailand - they are a direct result of insufficient funds being left in projects to complete the in a satisfactory way. Hardcore is cut back foundations are insubstantial all because the money needed to do a proper job has gone into the pockets of DOZENS of people from Govt ministers to local contractors.

It's the "smaller" people who pay the "big" powerful people for favors - if all the "small" people stop then the corruption stops.

[ableguy]

I'm shocked, just shocked.

I was so shocked that I was shocked again, it's shocking and I have never seen this more than 2 to 3 times a week/day.

i am very shocked that you are so shocked its all too shocking for me.

[alex_aka_P]

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

So I can't imagine how one would ever get rid of corruption so ingrained into everything and every day life - but it's been done before, right?

They enforced the "cross-calls" rule, nationwide. And it is in power until now. Just "call to the officials about your corrupted neighborhood - and get rewarded, and they'll get fired (at least). But hurry up - they are listening to this offer at the same time, and might be calling us about YOU right now". A quicker chicken is the winner - join the Big Race today, Singaporeans!.

The problem is solved just within a few years. Now there NOONE dares to pick up any "under-table rewards": one day someone offers "the envelope" to you, next minute he/she calls to "the Office", get rewarded and tomorrow sits in your chair, perhaps. And you gonna have some troubles for the rest of your life (there is a life-long jail sentences in such of cases). Everyone willing to pick the envelope (same as everywhere in the world) - but noone dare to.

Excellent and brilliant. The law is the law.

Edited October 4, 2010 by alex_aka_P

[LJW]

During my last visit to Thailand, I spend less than 1 hour on the road before being ambushed by a well known uniformed gang... 200 baht (that is a day's wages for most thais). The 3 thai with me were ambarrassed, but said nobody can do anything about it.

But best joke of all: when i got married we had to pay under the table to obtain .... a certificate of good behaviour for my wife....

.

I am happy to pay 200 baht at these speed stations. Everything is open and obvious, don't speed, don't pay

In my home country of the USA, it would cost me at least 10 times more, and can have serious consequences in my private life.

Here it is never a problem for me

Edited October 4, 2010 by LJW

[cloudhopper]

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it?

An authoritarian state that paid civil service wages competitive with top private employers to get competent people with little financial incentive to take bribes.

[LJW]

The end of corruption in Thailand must start at the top.. A lofty notion, but impractible as I anticipate 90%+ of positions would be vacated and the country would then grind to a halt.

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

So I can't imagine how one would ever get rid of corruption so ingrained into everything and every day life - but it's been done before, right?

Corruption can be brought to it's knees very quickly.

BUT NOT FROM THE TOP!

A few years ago a journalist (i think it was) urged the Thai people to stop paying the police their regular "tips" for just one day.

I can't remember what happened to her ...... was she killed?

The point is that if the Thai people did this for one day the entire system of corruption graft and nepotism would collapse.

So long as the country thinks it is acceptable for an officer of the law to stop anyone he/she likes and demand money for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, corruption will continue.

Singapore reduced corruption very quickly but they are not the same as Thailand....size and the nature of corruption here make it different.

As sea change in public opinion and above all public tolerance/acceptance of this sort of thing is called for.half the time the general public don't realise they are coalescing with corruption.they think it is acceptable to give public servants "gifts" for easing their progress through a bureaucratic process or giving someone a free holiday or 10% kickback when they award you a contract.

look at the state of the roads in thailand - they are a direct result of insufficient funds being left in projects to complete the in a satisfactory way. Hardcore is cut back foundations are insubstantial all because the money needed to do a proper job has gone into the pockets of DOZENS of people from Govt ministers to local contractors.

It's the "smaller" people who pay the "big" powerful people for favors - if all the "small" people stop then the corruption stops.

It's the "smaller" people who pay the "big" powerful people for favors - if all the "small" people stop then the corruption stops

Bullshit. Everybody pays, even the rich folks, because they know how and why the system works

[silk]

During my last visit to Thailand, I spend less than 1 hour on the road before being ambushed by a well known uniformed gang... 200 baht (that is a day's wages for most thais). The 3 thai with me were ambarrassed, but said nobody can do anything about it.

But best joke of all: when i got married we had to pay under the table to obtain .... a certificate of good behaviour for my wife....

.

I am happy to pay 200 baht at these speed stations. Everything is open and obvious, don't speed, don't pay

In my home country of the USA, it would cost me at least 10 times more, and can have serious consequences in my private life.

Here it is never a problem for me

In "your country" you might earn 10 times more than if you would work in Thailand. For sure you are a tourist. Do you know that a room maid in a hotel gets generally about THB 6000 per month,(10 hours a day, 6 days a week)??

[Crushdepth]

Corruption wont stop until Thais start punishing mainstream parties at the ballot box.

Don't hold your breath.

[LJW]

During my last visit to Thailand, I spend less than 1 hour on the road before being ambushed by a well known uniformed gang... 200 baht (that is a day's wages for most thais). The 3 thai with me were ambarrassed, but said nobody can do anything about it.

But best joke of all: when i got married we had to pay under the table to obtain .... a certificate of good behaviour for my wife....

.

I am happy to pay 200 baht at these speed stations. Everything is open and obvious, don't speed, don't pay

In my home country of the USA, it would cost me at least 10 times more, and can have serious consequences in my private life.

Here it is never a problem for me

In "your country" you might earn 10 times more than if you would work in Thailand. For sure you are a tourist. Do you know that a room maid in a hotel gets generally about THB 6000 per month,(10 hours a day, 6 days a week)??

Yes, I know how much a maid makes... I have been living and working here for 26 years, and happily

A maid would likely not be speeding, so she would never have any problems with the speed police.

Edited October 4, 2010 by LJW

[Robroy]

An international anti-corruption conference in Bangkok is a bit like convening a conference on alcoholism in a brewery.

It also somehow reminds me of an Indian friend's recent attempt to get a passport: he first had to get a certificate from the police verifying he was not guilty of any criminal acts. But the police would only issue him this certificate upon payment of a substantial bribe.

[swifty5x5]

" Social sanctions exist in Thailand, but mostly against nonsense issues like actors." <deleted> does this mean?

I think Thai actors nonsense issues.

[tomyummer]

It's gotten so complicated now bidding for government contracts. Whereas you used to have one line to the top with a fixed commission, now there are corrupt cells within the corruption each bidding against each other. So now you're bidding against a group of bidders each linked to influential government individuals. And if you don't have such a lead? Forget about it, you're not even in the race.

If you're lucky, maybe you can get away with 20% out of pocket, but now the average is 30%.

The taxpayers are the real ones to get screwed by this system.

Edited October 4, 2010 by tomyummer

[alex_aka_P]

It's gotten so complicated now bidding for government contracts. Whereas you used to have one line to the top with a fixed commission, now there are corrupt cells within the corruption each bidding against each other. So now you're bidding against a group of bidders each linked to influential government individuals. And if you don't have such a lead? Forget about it, you're not even in the race.

If you're lucky, maybe you can get away with 20% out of pocket, but now the average is 30%.

The taxpayers are the real ones to get screwed by this system.

True.

As a frequent player on some govt tenders, I am facing that monthly. The officials are asking you for 20-30% JUST TO LET your Company's application passed to the draw. No, it is not a guarantee that you'll win - it is just to submit the documents and "it won't be lost" somewhere in between. And yes, it is a full pre-payment in cash (no bank transfers, no credit notes/checks etc). Cash-in now, or you'll be out of the "feeder".

Once again: me myself facing this often. It is one of "not-to-speak" rules while making the business here in TH. Noone in the govt shy to request it, nor hiding of taking it. Just take it or leave it - the choice is yours, if you gonna make some bussiness here.

Edited October 4, 2010 by alex_aka_P

[chantorn]

Since Thaksin was kicked out, there is almost no corruption left.

[Puma]

To campaign you have to have free speech, stop the censorship!!

[Deeral]

Since Thaksin was kicked out, there is almost no corruption left.

Oh yes and the moon is made of cheese!

[Deeral]

The end of corruption in Thailand must start at the top.. A lofty notion, but impractible as I anticipate 90%+ of positions would be vacated and the country would then grind to a halt.

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

So I can't imagine how one would ever get rid of corruption so ingrained into everything and every day life - but it's been done before, right?

Corruption can be brought to it's knees very quickly.

BUT NOT FROM THE TOP!

A few years ago a journalist (i think it was) urged the Thai people to stop paying the police their regular "tips" for just one day.

I can't remember what happened to her ...... was she killed?

The point is that if the Thai people did this for one day the entire system of corruption graft and nepotism would collapse.

So long as the country thinks it is acceptable for an officer of the law to stop anyone he/she likes and demand money for absolutely no good reason whatsoever, corruption will continue.

Singapore reduced corruption very quickly but they are not the same as Thailand....size and the nature of corruption here make it different.

As sea change in public opinion and above all public tolerance/acceptance of this sort of thing is called for.half the time the general public don't realise they are coalescing with corruption.they think it is acceptable to give public servants "gifts" for easing their progress through a bureaucratic process or giving someone a free holiday or 10% kickback when they award you a contract.

look at the state of the roads in thailand - they are a direct result of insufficient funds being left in projects to complete the in a satisfactory way. Hardcore is cut back foundations are insubstantial all because the money needed to do a proper job has gone into the pockets of DOZENS of people from Govt ministers to local contractors.

It's the "smaller" people who pay the "big" powerful people for favors - if all the "small" people stop then the corruption stops.

It's the "smaller" people who pay the "big" powerful people for favors - if all the "small" people stop then the corruption stops

Bullshit. Everybody pays, even the rich folks, because they know how and why the system works

think again, why would anyone with all te power need to bribe anybody - it is the lesser folk who have to pay those who control whatever it is they want.

[Deeral]

During my last visit to Thailand, I spend less than 1 hour on the road before being ambushed by a well known uniformed gang... 200 baht (that is a day's wages for most thais). The 3 thai with me were ambarrassed, but said nobody can do anything about it.

But best joke of all: when i got married we had to pay under the table to obtain .... a certificate of good behaviour for my wife....

.

I am happy to pay 200 baht at these speed stations. Everything is open and obvious, don't speed, don't pay

In my home country of the USA, it would cost me at least 10 times more, and can have serious consequences in my private life.

Here it is never a problem for me

possibly the most asinine comment on the whole thread.Open and obvious - try taking a photo.

"Don't speed don't pay" - you obviously haven't been stopped that often - you don't have to break a law to be stopped - they make it up you fool!

[TheyCallmeScooter]

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it?

NOONE dares to pick up any "under-table rewards": one day someone offers "the envelope" to you, next minute he/she calls to "the Office", get rewarded and tomorrow sits in your chair, perhaps. And you gonna have some troubles for the rest of your life (there is a life-long jail sentences in such of cases). Everyone willing to pick the envelope (same as everywhere in the world) - but noone dare to.

An authoritarian state that paid civil service wages competitive with top private employers to get competent people with little financial incentive to take bribes.

Whilst (comparative) civil service wages in Singapore are either the highest in the world or right up there...lol @ there being "no incentive" merely because they're paid well. Human psychology doesn't really work like that. Thaksin was a billionaire so, by your logic, he had no incentive to ever get mixed up in graft, patronage, vote-buying, auctions for MPs, tax avoidance or any abuses of power.

No, I'm afraid Alex is very much spot on. There is but one effective way to 'incentivise' behaviour and that is to make the disincentives for the alternatives overwhelming disproportionate. And I'm not talking about idiotic disproportionate penalties for the rare unlucky sod who gets caught running the gauntlet. Obviously I'm referring to Alex's correct point regarding entrapment.

And lol @ thinking Thailand has a chance of combating corruption when half the country longs for the return of the most corrupt politician in Thai history.

Edited October 4, 2010 by TheyCallmeScooter

[LingLek]

Most respondents to this listerv appear never to have travelled anywhere else in their lives. Did they round up all the Rotarians in Wales and the American Mid-West one day and ship them all overnight to Thailand? Picture them tottering in bewilderment down Silom or Sukhumvit, throwing up their hands at the massage parlor girls and furtive types with curious offers. Imagine what happens to their amour propre when they get in a taxi or ask for help from a law enforcment officer. Most entertaining.

[LJW]

It's the "smaller" people who pay the "big" powerful people for favors - if all the "small" people stop then the corruption stops

Bullshit. Everybody pays, even the rich folks, because they know how and why the system works

think again, why would anyone with all te power need to bribe anybody - it is the lesser folk who have to pay those who control whatever it is they want.

Anyone who wants ANYTHING .. Maybe your kid wants to attend a particular school, you must pay, no matter your status

Nobody has all the power in their life...

[Tigs]

As a slight aside, why is it called 'Graft'? I always thought Graft was a term for hard work.

There can never be an end to corruption in a society that still has the ultra rich and ultra poor, with a bit of a vacuum in between. Money and material possession is how the Rich maintain power and how the less wealthy have learned to sample a feeling of power. Why should anyone willing to sell their political vote for $10 or sit in the street everyday for three months in protest for $10-$15 per day care one iota about the eradication of corruption. There will be no 'grass roots movement' to end corruption, it is second nature and how the poor and wannabes make a little extra.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Edited October 5, 2010 by TheyCallmeScooter

[Wozzit]

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Hong Kong. That was certainly one of the most corrupt places in the region until the government finally decided to take action in the early 1970s. More accurately it was the Governor of the day, as the UK then 'administered' the territory. The plan which was set in motion almost overnight was the establishment of an independent anti-corruption commission (ICAC), This was independent of both the civil service and the police but with many of the same powers. The basic theory seems to have been that anyone accused of being corrupt was guilty until proved innocent, rather than the other way around. The results were spectacular, with many top police and government figures caught in the net. Hong Kong is also now regarded as one of the least corrupt territories in the region. Interestingly, at the end of the 20th century when Hong Kong citizens were polled on the most important developments in Hong Kong over the past 100 years, the establishment of the ICAC was in the top 10.

Community education has always been part of the Hong Kong campaign. But without the legal clout and the stiff jail terms, public education on its own will achieve absolutely nothing! For the adviser of the NCCC to come out with the following statement is just ridiculous in my view. Social sanctions?????

The public need to be guided on how they should act against it. Social sanctions exist in Thailand, but mostly against nonsense issues like actors. Thailand shows the capacity in exercising the sanctions in a positive way, but there is no guidance on this," said Utis Kaothien, senior adviser of the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NCCC).

Edited October 5, 2010 by Wozzit

[Deeral]

It was a long time ago but I often wonder - how did Singapore do it? Surely that place was just as corrupt as any other SEA country at one point? Now they are usually in the top 5 of countries with the least corruption...

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Hong Kong. That was certainly one of the most corrupt places in the region until the government finally decided to take action in the early 1970s. More accurately it was the Governor of the day, as the UK then 'administered' the territory. The plan which was set in motion almost overnight was the establishment of an independent anti-corruption commission (ICAC), This was independent of both the civil service and the police but with many of the same powers. The basic theory seems to have been that anyone accused of being corrupt was guilty until proved innocent, rather than the other way around. The results were spectacular, with many top police and government figures caught in the net. Hong Kong is also now regarded as one of the least corrupt territories in the region. Interestingly, at the end of the 20th century when Hong Kong citizens were polled on the most important developments in Hong Kong over the past 100 years, the establishment of the ICAC was in the top 10.

Community education has always been part of the Hong Kong campaign. But without the legal clout and the stiff jail terms, public education on its own will achieve absolutely nothing! For the adviser of the NCCC to come out with the following statement is just ridiculous in my view. Social sanctions?????

The public need to be guided on how they should act against it. Social sanctions exist in Thailand, but mostly against nonsense issues like actors. Thailand shows the capacity in exercising the sanctions in a positive way, but there is no guidance on this," said Utis Kaothien, senior adviser of the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NCCC).

Certainly agree with Utis Kaothien quote.

I also note that in reality corruption can be eradicated quite quickly in some cases.I think if the population of Thailand collectively thought they could do something it would happen and happen fast - and those that benefit from a corrupt StaTe and business sector know that.

[pbeieio]

Why so “shocked” and “astounded”? I think some westerners get a little too “precious” and “one eyed” when it comes to corruption.

I left the \UK in 1987 and I can recall that not too long before that there were reports of widespread corruption in the Police force and local government etc. Indeed did we not see a case recently, the ex-wife of the Duke of York receive a substantial sum in cash to “open a few doors”.

Worst of all in 1987 I moved to Australia where the level of corruption and graft permeated all levels of government, police, business and judiciary. But eventually , it was exposed and those involved punished and vilified.

The main difference between the UK, Australia and Thailand is that generally corruption is no longer tolerated by the Brits and the Aussies whereas it is still intrinsically engrained into Thai society.

In the past 9 years I have seen all of the various governments announce “crackdowns” on corruption. This was and still remains blatant tokenism.

If there is one place that is a microcosm for all the ongoing ills of Thailand then I choose SuvarnabhumI airport. What goes on there never ceases to amaze me, moreover, the Thai authorities fail to appreciate the subsequent worldwide negative repercussions.

A recent incident begs comparison. If 100 armed men took over 2 car parks at Heathrow or Frankfurt then that would be dealt with as a major breach of security and a potential terrorist threat! Here it is reported as a “business dispute” buy an ever compliant press.

After this would not Al Qaeda regard SuvarnabhumI as a “soft” target where western tourists could be easily targeted?

I just cannot see how a inherently corrupt institution can legislate against itself.

In my instance, I refuse pay the bastards! I can only hope that others may follow my example.

　

　

　

　

　

　

　

　

[mommysboy]

The only thing that amazes me is the number of people who seek to deny that corruption is rampant either by outright denial or petty distraction, or pointing out the failings of other countries.

That country B may also have a problem, does not make country A any the less corrupt I think.

As far as I am aware, Thailand is the only country where people complain about not being able to get away with cheating!! Corruption is a way of life out here, a commission to compensate for poor wages, but it's also the reason Thailand is ikely to miss out on real development once again.

[featography]

Brown mafia tried to do me on the way to Khon Kaen over the weekend but I just ignored 'em and drove on. TiT :jap:

There are a pair of BIB at the bottom of the hill, as you right turn to enter the toll booths. This the closest one to the US Embassy. I nicknamed these 2 Mutt and Jeff. If youre my generation, you will remember those cartoon characters. One tall and skinny, one short and fat. These 2 BIB, twice falsely accused me of crossing a solid line. Twice I paid the tea money while the wife was doing the full verbal assault on them, scaring me into thinking we would get cuffed and dragged to jail. The 3rd time this happened, I smiled and said give me the ticket, they asked for my license, I showed them the license, but refused to give it to them. They let me go, with ticket and license. We drove straight to what the wife calls, The Big Police, department, with the dark what I call charcoal colored uniforms. The wife got a higher up officer, wearing enough medals and metals on his shirt to sink The Bismark, to talk to us. Here it gets entertaining. I showed him pictures I keep in our truck, of me in 'Browns" standing next to my 800 cubic feet cargo space, UPS truck, and we explained that I am retired from 28 yrs professional driving, and that US trafic laws are not that much different from Thai laws. This medal packing officer gets a mobile, calls Mutt or Jeff, and interogates him, then proceeds to give him an attitude adjustment. At one point, the wife had to stifle a laugh, injects a question to the officer in front of us, "does he speak English?". Turns out, BIB was claiming I admitted "responsible", meaning guilt. It got more uncomfortable for BIB over the next few minutes, then the officer hung up, looking very serious. He gave me my license, told the wife he would take care of the ticket and we were free to leave and disregard the ticket.

I mention this story to save any American TV members the hassle if driving, to turn left at the end of Wireless road, and loop around to the highway. Dont turn right.