Testosterone

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JayInOz,

You make some fair criticism of a possible reading of our last post as implying muscles equate stupidity in certain "pop icon" cultural figures symbolizing primate dominance, muscle over mind, the underdog standing up to the evil top-dog via heroic effort. The old "limbic system" hard-wired male brain drenched in the hallucinogen testosterone that turns babies into warriors, serial killers, and heroes.

We'd distinguish the "media persona" of such figures from the "real people" they actually are, and our comments are directed toward the cultural icons, not the "real people." We think we heard that Chuck Norris once won a world-championship of poker ? And so forth. We actually saw one JCVD movie where he played twin brothers, one "evil," one "good," and actually believed for the first time that he could act in some other way than just showing off his magnificently developed body and ability to do splits like a ballerina, and smash up palm-trees, bricks, and people Even Bruce Willis, who we regard as an example of the "crude lout" persona, showed he could act in Tarentino's Pulp Fiction (perfect casting). While we really do believe that Sly S. is stupid, and his films are absolute garbage, we have no agenda you should care one whit about our personal tastes If you love his movies we think neither more, nor less, of you.

The reason we use "we" (and "us," and "our," and so forth) is not because we feel, as Walt Whitman said: "I am large, I contain multitudes," ... and certainly not to imply any "royal" we ... but because what is now inside this human meat-package are the souls and minds of two complete entities: its former human resident, who used to feel it was "all him," and the mind-soul of a (now physically dead) Orangutan. Where and when the quantum singularity that created this "resurrected" chimeric fusion from two dying bodies came about has been related on this forum before. But the essence of it, the "how," is as unexplainable as your waking up in the morning, looking in the mirror and believing, based on what you see: "here I am, again."

Unfortunately, English does not have a special class of pronouns for chimera, such as we are. Perhaps we should change to using something a little different, since for many people "we" used as we use it may sound "arrogant" ? Maybe "duo-us" ? Or, "twosomely" ?

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 9, 2010 by orang37

[mamborobert]

"For us, appropriate aging, at this point, is to have less "lust," be less "driven" by the one-track-minded lizard between our male legs, have more peace of mind, a quieter mind, greater curiousity, less restlessness and desire to take risks Which does not imply being weak physically, being tired mentally, being diminished in vitality"

Orang37

Off topic I know but this (with slight modification) describes my ideals ...how can I say, ideally.

The less driven by lust would be my stumbling block but am nearly there...right now going through my St Augustine phase of "give me chastity and continence, but not yet".

And as for Chimera as a descriptor, there are worse titles with worse fates, Androgyne?

I saw my father live his last 30 years to your quote and he was never more happier, more at peace, more contemplative, and lived satiated. This too is the life I want, and perhaps through his fine example and reaching earlier.

Anyhow thanks for your thoughts...one for my fridge magnets where it shall hold an exhaulted place.

[uptheos]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun UpTheos,

That same study you linked to, of 153 Chinese men, minimum 55 years old, 47 of whom had some form of "mild cognitive impairment," but not dementia, a study of only one year's duration, is also reported (perhaps with a bit more depth ?) here: WebMD report on Chinese Study and here MedIndia Reportage

Hi orang, it wasn't my opinion, it just happened to be in the health section of today's Daily Mail in UK, so I posted it for comment.

Thanks very much for the feedback to it.

[jayinoz]

Wow weeee... the guy simply asked about where to get Testo... now he knows.

The option of HGH is a personal choice in longevity and feeling and looking better.

I am an advocate of those who wish to try be better than they currently are- Mind and body.

An aging body can be helped by the above- who are we- or government to stop a person from doing this... Most government make it near impossible without the huge bucks of superstars- I highlighted that in Thailand u do not need to be a superstar to gain access.

As for the celebrities you mentioned- their is obvious jealousy at play- u are jealous of the successful and put many down when you feel u can. Do they listen- NO because u achieved nothing like them, Chok Dee.

If you read Sly S life story then u would know he is a far more motivated and ambitious man than u ever were- get over urself...Orang37- obvious jealousy.

[mamborobert]

Wow weeee... the guy simply asked about where to get Testo... now he knows.

The option of HGH is a personal choice in longevity and feeling and looking better.

I am an advocate of those who wish to try be better than they currently are- Mind and body.

An aging body can be helped by the above- who are we- or government to stop a person from doing this... Most government make it near impossible without the huge bucks of superstars- I highlighted that in Thailand u do not need to be a superstar to gain access.

As for the celebrities you mentioned- their is obvious jealousy at play- u are jealous of the successful and put many down when you feel u can. Do they listen- NO because u achieved nothing like them, Chok Dee.

If you read Sly S life story then u would know he is a far more motivated and ambitious man than u ever were- get over urself...Orang37- obvious jealousy.

The man is quoting Walt Whitman....I don't think reading Sly Stallone's biography will be his next choice.

Come to think of it would'nt be mine either....but then I would watch some of Sly's films

Success is measured in many different ways...and I do like the more wholesome description of it by Orang.

Sly has had three marriages, been a lapsed catholic, been caught in Oz with 48 vials that he tried to hide (so I guess respect for the laws of your own country is not high on his list of merits either). Having said that there are not a lot of perfect people about nowdays...except maybe on Thaivisa.

Lets just let everyone agree to disagree without the sledges.......and end with a quote from a man in the action genre camp sans roids, Clint Eastwood, "opinions are like <deleted>, everybody's got one"

[tampasailor]

My Doctor found my testosterone levels were about half what they should have been and recommended Depotest. It is an injectable and I found easy anger when it peaks at about two weeks. As a shot is good for a month, I elected to have half every two weeks and found this reduced the spike effect considerably. I have purchased in ChiangMai and found good discount for a box of vials and it's good to shop around a bit as it can be expensive. Have your PSA checked before taking and study up well on the effects. It may take quite a few months to reverse metabolic syndrome. You should gain some hair back and lose fat and build muscle mass over time. In my case very good for my heart. Be careful and don't abuse it.

Edited October 9, 2010 by tampasailor

[jsflynn603]

However one should have the 'digital finger exam' etc medical before commencing treatment.

Gee, I touch type and keypad type, so that means that all my fingers would be considered "digital" so I guess they all must be examined before taking testosterone--how strange, but good to know

Thank you ;>

[THAIPHUKET]

Highly interesting post on CM forum. Because of it I will have my testosterone level checked. Which doctor, who really knows about these things, to see? Which lab??

[orang37]

Can you remember how long a moon is?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Cloudhopper,

Well, that depends: do you use the synodic period (29.5 days), which is the time lapse between the moon presenting exactly the same phase as observed from a fixed point on earth; or, the sidereal period (27.3 days) ? Or the more common "popular" figure of 28 days ?

The figure of 1877 moons, which would be over 140 earth years, is, we agree, absurd: the only excuse we can manufacture is: at the time the human and orang in us were having an argument about this very subject:

... while the human advocated using the sum of his total body-manifestation years now plus the age at physical death of the orang ...

... the orang demanded we use a "real" age ... for him ... based on a sum of both his biological age at time of death (at the time of his syzygyic fusion with us, the human) plus the biological age at time of death of Ur Orang, his great "spiritual" teacher, who our orang considers himself a direct reincarnation of (kind of like the way Tibetans believe in certain high Llamas and Alpacas being reincarnated as "tulkus").

In other words: you have, indeed, hoisted us on our own petard to an altitude at which we experience the vertigo of the sloppy fabulator

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 10, 2010 by orang37

[cloudhopper]

Well, that depends: do you use the synodic period (29.5 days), which is the time lapse between the moon presenting exactly the same phase as observed from a fixed point on earth; or, the sidereal period (27.3 days) ? Or the more common "popular" figure of 28 days ?

Hi well I just use a calendar. I was interested in those time frames over which you were reporting changes though, not your chronological age.

[orang37]

Wow weeee... the guy simply asked about where to get Testo... now he knows.

The option of HGH is a personal choice in longevity and feeling and looking better.

I am an advocate of those who wish to try be better than they currently are- Mind and body.

An aging body can be helped by the above- who are we- or government to stop a person from doing this... Most government make it near impossible without the huge bucks of superstars- I highlighted that in Thailand u do not need to be a superstar to gain access.

As for the celebrities you mentioned- their is obvious jealousy at play- u are jealous of the successful and put many down when you feel u can. Do they listen- NO because u achieved nothing like them, Chok Dee.

If you read Sly S life story then u would know he is a far more motivated and ambitious man than u ever were- get over urself...Orang37- obvious jealousy.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JayInOz,

We'll say nothing in response to the ad hominem flavor of this reply, since it well deserves the kaopectate of silence

Suffice it to say that if we woke up tomorrow and felt our lives had anything in common with the lives of Mel Gibson or Sly Stallone, we'd first cut our testicles off, and then, if still alive, consider further methods of having our souls exit our human container. Which is not to say we don't have compassion for their tormented and deformed lives.

However, we will say that you have not "advocated" anything in your posts except your evidently quite uninformed (by medical or scientific knowledge) belief that what is "good for JayInOz, is good for other people." And in this case this is, effectively, giving medical advice which we believe is "irresponsible" on a public forum.

The drugs in question here have powerful effects on the complex "endocrine symphony" of the regulation of mind and body; effects that will vary with age, temperament, genetic heritage, lifestyle history, complex interactions with other medications, etc.

We are returning to ignoring your posts now, feeling there's no reason to continue dialog with someone at your crude level of responding.

We repeat our assertion that anyone who self-medicates with these type drugs without a thorough medical screening, and an "all clear," and under medical supervision is ... a fool.

best, ~o:37;

[orang37]

Dear org.~.37,

I do enjoy your writting but not this particular thread.

What are you doing? You are all over the map on this one my friend . Very ,very defensive .Why?

Bob wrote, "don't criticise what you don't understand."

The post was about testosterone and where to get it . andriol testicaps 40mg blue box -main macro 750 baht for a months supply ,this andrial is gel caps that by passes the liver works thru the lymph glands . It works very well.

Do try hard not to write a book back but instead use the precious energy to go get well.

Worrying about healthy men with better bodies than yourself solves nothing.Just make an effort ,spend a little money to get the help you need , get healthy and enjoy yourself more.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Yesterday,

We'll try to do better: we do want you to enjoy our writing !

We recognize and acknowledge you perceive our writing on this topic as "defensive," and are not troubled by that, but all we can say in response (without indeed exemplifying being "defensive") is that we have not felt defensive, or under attack, on this thread, or in writing any of our responses.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

We did feel a few mosquitoes land on our flesh, but they were so easily brushed aside they must have been males (only females suck blood and carry dengue and malaria).

We enjoy tilting at windmills And writing is "our thang."

By the way, may we ask who the "Bob" you quote is: are you referring to the "Bob," of the Church of the SubGenius ? Church of the SubGenius

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 10, 2010 by orang37

[THAIPHUKET]

I think we are getting a near-perfect script for a wonderful ironic play by some talented playwriters. First time that I enjoy the literary side of TV.

[orang37]

I think we are getting a near-perfect script for a wonderful ironic play by some talented playwriters. First time that I enjoy the literary side of TV.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun ThaiPhuket,

Particularly if it was your "first time," we sincerely hope it was/is as good, or better, than it was/is for us !

For us, in our better moments, there are no "playrighters," or "playwrongers," only "playwriters," and our fervent hope is you, as fellow playwright, feel and experience you have complete freedom to re-write, edit, and take to "new dimensions" ... the script.

best, ~o:37;

[jayinoz]

Orang37, not sure where Mel Gibson popped up from as I thiink of him as a Racist Pig. He has nothing to do with the supplements mentioned. Although due to some people who take excessive HGH + Testo who go into ROID Rage, often those whom already have an Anger Management issue... In his case I doubt these supplements would be good for his persona in high dosage.

Yet I think you will agree I can admire whomever I wish and so can you. I simply feel that these superstars are a clear example of aging gracefully with this help. Who cares if Sly S does not wish to leave the 'Stud farm' as you say... that is his choice and good for him at 64yo.

Anyway I advise that people take the following blood tests below- your specialist should know, if not request it... then see how low your hormones are in relation to Peak levels when u were 20-25yo. Then decide for yourself whether hormone treatment is right for you. I am in my 30s yet I get tested- I feel I do not need as yet due to being only 5-10% down from Peak levels when an athlete in my 20s. Strength exercise helps increase these levels greatly, naturally.

I do not think these supplements are needed for an active body until your 40s... then boost levels back to your 20s for that extra boost in mental and physical health. Your levels should be 15-20%+ down from their Peak to have any real affect.

A stigma has only been attached to HGH + Testo due to a few Abusers taking 100s of times the normal dosage thus they get cancers, ROID Rage, etc. You will get great benefits if your levels are low- I saw my father look and feel a decade or 2 younger within weeks. Put the spring back in his step. Yet I also seen the downside in the Athlete field- the abusers and ROID Rage. So maybe not for everyone, if you keep upping your levels.

Stick to brand names and do not use the cheap chinese knock offs would be my advice. Plus medical supervision, yet many doctors barely have a clue about this except those whom specialize in Longevity or Athlete's. None in CMai that I know of... Thus people need all the info they can get to test their medical specialist I believe.

Here is the blood test recommended...

Total testosterone

Free testosterone

Bio AT

SHBG

LH

FSH

TSH

PSA

and Estriadol (E2)

:jap:

Edited October 13, 2010 by bazmlb

[THAIPHUKET]

Here is the blood test recommended...

Total testosterone

Free testosterone

Bio AT

SHBG

LH

FSH

TSH

PSA

and Estriadol (E2)

:jap:

Question= if this group of test sare shown to a lab will the test result which normally shows over/under limit be enough assuming there is no serious deviation?

Are you say to find a doc who knows his stuff one needs to go to Bumrungrad or similar places?

Really no one in all of CM to trust??

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Here is the blood test recommended...

Total testosterone

Free testosterone

Bio AT

SHBG

LH

FSH

TSH

PSA

and Estriadol (E2)

:jap:

Question= if this group of test sare shown to a lab will the test result which normally shows over/under limit be enough assuming there is no serious deviation?

Are you say to find a doc who knows his stuff one needs to go to Bumrungrad or similar places?

Really no one in all of CM to trust??

it's not so much about trust but Thailand is just a lagging medical performance environment.

I visit the Boulder Colorado Sports Medicine center in the US. There are lots of facilities in the US, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Australia. Thailand is just a follower and the market is not there yet for demand.

I haven't heard of any specialized centers in CM.. Maybe something in BKK or Singapore.

The medical treatment industry doesn't have the time or energy to be preventative or aggressive in anti aging. They basically wait until a person is sick and then try to treat them.

Sports medicine centers are keeping elite athletes and even celebrities competitive far longer in their chronological lives. In the last olympics we witnessed over 40 athletes performing like much younger competitors. The ultimate goal is to prevent biological degeneration and maintain high capability.

Good luck out there and keep an open mind. The human's biological performance and lifespan is expanding beyond most peoples expectations. One just has to be open to progress. A hundred years ago if a country have a average lifespan of 45 years then it would be a leader. Today its more like 90 years. In 20 years who knows how long humans will be living and performing like younger aged people.

[orang37]

... snip ... it's not so much about trust but Thailand is just a lagging medical performance environment.

I visit the Boulder Colorado Sports Medicine center in the US. There are lots of facilities in the US, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Australia. Thailand is just a follower and the market is not there yet for demand.

I haven't heard of any specialized centers in CM.. Maybe something in BKK or Singapore.

The medical treatment industry doesn't have the time or energy to be preventative or aggressive in anti aging. They basically wait until a person is sick and then try to treat them.

Sports medicine centers are keeping elite athletes and even celebrities competitive far longer in their chronological lives. In the last olympics we witnessed over 40 athletes performing like much younger competitors. The ultimate goal is to prevent biological degeneration and maintain high capability.

Good luck out there and keep an open mind. The human's biological performance and lifespan is expanding beyond most peoples expectations. One just has to be open to progress. A hundred years ago if a country have a average lifespan of 45 years then it would be a leader. Today its more like 90 years. In 20 years who knows how long humans will be living and performing like younger aged people.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

Wise and sane words, as we'd expect from you (hope that does not sound patronizing !).

Truly wish we could take our human meat-package to an advanced $ports medicine center for a total diagnostic work-up and recommendations on diet, supplements, etc. !

But, please allow us to add a few hypotheticals:

1. unfortunately many athletes whose performance has really "defied" chronology have been revealed to be on extreme drugs that have great risk; medical testing in competitive sports has struggled to keep pace with the laboratories inventing custom molecles which are hard-to-detect analogues of the now easy-to-detect usual suspects. and, sadly, many of those who are "busted" are Olympians or Tour de France champions, etc.

2. we would interpret the aging athlete who uses the latest designer whatever to extend performance or maintain existing "world-class" performance as they age as someone whose primary motivation is athletic achievement (often with fringe benefits including fame, power, money, etc.), not a quest for long-term life-extension at all, or, more importantly, extension of the Quality of Life.

3. "human's biological performance and lifespan," as you say, have been extended dramatically in the last 100 years, no doubt. The major factors being antibiotics, dramatic reduction of infant mortality and death in childbirth, and, as Rene Dubos pointed out in "Mirage of Health:" in some cases the evolutionary decline in toxicity of major causes of disease (tuberculosis was Dubos' prime example: a large reason for its decline was its evolving to become less fatal to humans, NOT advances in medicine or public health). Balancing that out, we can, of course, note that "evolution is not idle," and not "designed to benefit the human organism alone," and HIV/AIDS, Ebola, and widespread growth of Dengue (the world's fastest growing arbovirus), the recent outbreaks of new diseases "jumping" from other species to humans, are the "other side of that coin."

4. Another factor is historical/social/environmental: in WWII two out of five recruits to the US Army were rejected for military service: primary reason: constitutional weakness due to infant malnutrition related to the poverty and famine of the Great Depression.

5. "One just has to be open to progress:" We ask you if you think the American medical health care system as it is now for most people really represents progress when you compare statistics like infant mortality in America with other countries of the world ? Personally, we find no "progress" in the creation of drugs that allow a world-class athlete to shave a few seconds off a world record.

6. Again we'd distinguish between the prolongation of life for the elderly from the prolongation of "quality of life" for the elderly. For many elderly in the US the end of life is a medical nightmare that shreds all human dignity and damages families, in the process often destroying a family's life savings before they finally get poor enough to be able to afford the health-care they need, by which time the trauma of losing the "family home" and becoming destitute have contributed to depression, hopelessness, and sense of failure (we have a few years of direct experience working with elderly isolated seniors in San Francisco and observing this process).

To say it once more: we recognize the freedom of choice of the individual to decide what they do, or don't do, with this divine gift of incarnation in a meat-package that has, at least to our human minds, a unique degree of awareness and sentience, capable of the insanity of perceiving itself as the "highest form of being" in the world, and constructing creation myths in which we make a god (usually male since around 4000 BCE) out of our own 'image,' but claim the reverse .

But, as we "zoom-in" on what this physical human body really is: we find twenty billion micro-organisms living on one hand alone; we find the number of bacteria in the gut out-number the number of cells in the body ten to one. Human DNA contains the "fossil records" of the incorporation of junk fragments of countless viruses and parasites over evolutionary time. And the Y chromosome, that unique determiner of "maleness," is actually losing genes over time, as well as being the perhaps most junk-filled and fragile little whimp of a chromosome of all.

At any one point in the sky above our head, it is estimated ten million insects pass overhead in any one month. And the average bed we sleep in contains 20 million bed-mites each of whom shits once per hour

For us, over-shadowing all of this is the metaphysical issue of "what is this life for" ... what does "quality of life" mean ... if the very "window of consciousness" floating above the almost independent "life" of the autonomic nervous system is culturally constructed using an innate facility for the acquisition of grammar and language which is inherently social ... are we really "individuals" ?

We invite you to peform the following thought-experiment (to borrow from physics: "gedanken"): A Magical Djinn appears (but you didn't open a cast-away bottle, or rub an oil-lamp, and you don't get three wishes): the Djinn says:

"I make you a one time offer: say: 'Yes,' and your life will be shorter by twenty years, but the quality of your life will be incredible, your energy boundless, your creativity unlimited, your sexual prowess astounding, your intellectual powers magnified one-hundred fold: say: 'No,' and I disappear, and your life remains the same."

You are dubious, of course, and reply: " ... mmm ... sounds too good to be true ... is there any catch, any downside for anyone else in this offer ... ?"

And the Djinn grins and says: "well, since you asked, I am forced, by my Magic's protocols, to give an honest answer: the "extra" quality of life that will be given to you is actually borrowed from 1000 other lives, a thousandth-part harvested from each: but, why should that concern you ? Most of those other lives are just stupid people, poor, living hopeless lives; most will die younger rather than older ... and think of how you could, after all, use your "extra" life-force and powers to enrich the lives of innumberable other people !"

What is your answer, please ?

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 12, 2010 by orang37

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

well first of all you could learn to distill your posts down a bit...Reading your posts is a bit like eating cotton candy. Lots of fluff but not a of content. That's good feedback if you choose to embrace it.

I know you mean well but writing concisely is the essence of good communication.

There will always be resistance to change.

There is accumulating data to suggest that hormonal deficiencies are the cause of various diseases, degeneration and cancers.

My pops in the states starting seeing this Dr. in Palm Springs California. MD from Harvard. PHD from MIT. Really on top of things. My father who is in his 70's and not an athlete was really fading and basically was ready to just vegetate in a retirement home.

We encouraged him to see this Dr. and he has made an amazing comeback and now we get to enjoy his company for a bit more. It's one of the greatest gifts I have given to my family.

He got my father on Testosterone, HGH, DHEA and a few supporting supplements. The idea with this new emerging science is to monitor hormone, enzyme and performance criteria in the human body and make adjustments. Seems alternative now but I suspect in 20 years it will be the norm....

He is just one of many but results speak for themselves.

Anti Aging Dr. from California

[orang37]

well first of all you could learn to distill your posts down a bit...Reading your posts is a bit like eating cotton candy. Lots of fluff but not a of content. That's good feedback if you choose to embrace it.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

Well, ioho, you could learn to increase your attention span (diet, meditation, and exercise can definitely help, and there is increasingly scientifically documented evidence that an active, busy aging mind, regularly engaged in intense concentration and study, maintains (even enhances) attention span, memory retention short- and long-term, and delays cognitive deteriorartion, etc.) If what you read tastes like "cotton candy," you might have your taste buds examined ... we don't need to because our (actual, physical) taste buds are 90% dead thanks to high-intensity particle-beam radiation.

The last post to you contains substantial content specifically responding to six points in your previous message, none of which you responded to. If you can't see that specific content, remove the blindfold, or adjust the strength of your reading glasses, Sir

"I know you mean well but writing concisely is the essence of good communication."

Platitude masking attitude. What's stopping you from ignoring what you don't like to read ? "Skim deficit" ?

"There will always be resistance to change."

Particularly among those with short attention spans, who have "surrendered" to filling the void of their lives with the matrix of constant media lowest-common-denominator news and entertainment, and who lack "insatiable" curiousity, and who clutch the life-savers of unexamined convictions because they believe they have fallen overboard off the good ship "Sense of Self"

"There is accumulating data to suggest that hormonal deficiencies are the cause of various diseases, degeneration and cancers."

If you are sure of this, perhaps you'd care to present some evidence from rigorously controlled double-blind long-term longitudinal scientifice studies published in mainstream clinical journals that are peer-reviewed. There's certainly no doubt, at this point, that "environmental pollution" and exposure to specific toxins can increase these problems, as can excess drinking of alcohol, abuse of drugs, chronic smoking, obesity, and diet, lack of exercise. And "social isolation," depression, loneliness !

And compelling scientific evidence that, in the case of the increase of all types of cancers, there is a direct result of the modern increasing life-span due to the nature of deterioration of cell replication, and the increase of genetic errors and anomalies over time.

ioho if you said: "there is increasing evidence that there is a hormonal system component as part of the increasing awareness of the complex nature of diseases, degeneration, and cancer in the aging population and their relationship to the historically unique extension of life-span, envrionmental pollution, and lifestyle:" we'd vote for that. But you could add in a reference to almost any body system (liver, renal system, lymph system), in the same way.

"My pops in the states starting seeing this Dr. in Palm Springs California. MD from Harvard. PHD from MIT. Really on top of things. My father who is in his 70's and not an athlete was really fading and basically was ready to just vegetate in a retirement home.

We encouraged him to see this Dr. and he has made an amazing comeback and now we get to enjoy his company for a bit more. It's one of the greatest gifts I have given to my family."

He got my father on Testosterone, HGH, DHEA and a few supporting supplements. The idea with this new emerging science is to monitor hormone, enzyme and performance criteria in the human body and make adjustments. Seems alternative now but I suspect in 20 years it will be the norm....

He is just one of many but results speak for themselves."

We're truly happy to hear your Father has had wonderful results from this doctor and his treatment ! Wi$h we had the opportunity to consult with that Doctor !

These results could also be explained by the demonstrated effects of social attention addressing the issue of social isolation, active engagement in activities replacing a sedentary lifestyle: regaining a social life, strongly documented evidence of even light exercise having great benefits, physically and mentally, for idle/inactive seniors.

And placebo effect (by the way, for us, the words "placebo effect" are not pejorative, just a very poor choice of words that were intended to imply "less than real" and used with that meaning in most contexts). Well documented evidence shows increased physical and mental benefits come from interaction with doctors, therpists (and shamans, and witchdoctors) where expectations of healing are aroused in the patient/client, and where the reputation of the practitioner is "perceived" by the client as famous, uniquely effective, uniquely qualified and trained. Some studies at Texas in the 1990's, from the "movement" which called itself "social influence therapy," which we find distasteful and against scientific ethics, used trickery to artificially elevate the perceived status of psychotherapists: guess what, their clients reported much more satisfactory treatment outcomes compared to psychotherapists whose "rep" was not bogusly elevated.

We really like the often "down to earth wisdom" of Dr. Andrew Weill, who we regard as a real "agent of rational, science-based, change" in reforming modern medicine with "alternative wisdom" in comments like: "there is no more effective treatment for depression than a half hour of even light exercise" (quoting from memory so may not be an exact quote). Wi$h we could afford to consult with him, too.

The "results of your Father" speak only of "the results of your Father," which, to our minds, in no way diminshes the value of those "results" for one individual ... and you !

The statement "Seems alternative now but I suspect in 20 years it will be the norm...." in reference to HGH, DHEA, is a statement of faith, which, if it gives you hope and peace of mind, we are happy for you. But is as useful, as a hypothesis, as "the sky is falling."

Our own "statement of faith:" would be something like: in the next twenty years therapies and results that are almost unimagineable now will result from the cutting edge of neuro-biological research, the development of custom-tailored drugs matched to the target patients' DNA, and, hopefully, some real insights into the nature and structure of "consciousness" ... and how to use that knowledge in healing and promoting quality of life ... grounded in neurological "fact."

An area we believe (faith) that will have tremendous payoff will be the currently explosive growth of research into the epigenomic aspects of protein manufacture and cellular change (which genes get expressed, and which proteins get made in response to that expression ... those proteins further affecting how other genes are expressed, or not expressed ... and how those changes are transmitted to the next generation(s) ). The "egg has just been broken" on the potentially enormous consequences of what epigenomic activities are.

While the fallacies of LaMarck will not be repeated (as made a disatrous cult of by Stalin, and resulting in a staggering agricultural failure and famine in the Soviet Union), it is now clear that there are indeed profound effects transmitted from generation to generation based on life-experiences: the dna template, from which the neonate "unfolds," is by no means, any longer, a "blank slate" of momma and pappa's DNA's scrambled together, with momma's mitochrondrial DNA being transmitted consistently and exclusively.

We may have to modify the "old saw:" "what goes around comes around" to include something like: "what goes around does come around, but some things that happened in the previous go-round, also travel forward, at least for a few generations."

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 13, 2010 by orang37

[jayinoz]

U are on fire Orang37- anyway to the other posters Q---- No I have never found a knowledgeable enough Doctor in all Cmai in sports medicine and longevity that I can trully trust. More Farang laymen have knowledge yet not the education. Unfortunate but true.

Some good Doctors in BKK- if i find one in CMAI- I will let the thread find out... As I am looking.

Get the test- if 20%+ below in total testo then I advise strength exercise + supplemental help. It a giveme you are under you Peaks from 20-25yo, if you over 40-45yo. As described above... I will keep a look out for a sports QUACK who knows his stuff in CMAI for all of us.

If others find one the knows the tests I mentioned in detail then please pass on and I will check them out....

Cheers

Jay

[flying]

jayinoz thanks for the info you have posted as it is all very interesting.

I do not agree with the poster that claims most take them for sex performance related reasons. I should also say I have no proof either way & could care less.

I was an athlete in my 20's-30's & other than that have always done physical type work.

But I also know that typically 30-40% of muscle mass & strength may be lost over the years after you reach 30+.

When your in a line of work that demands strength I see no problem with trying to counter the loss if it can be done safely.

I will say if you were an athlete & monitored such things as resting & waking pulse as well as BP,weight & pulse rates at various levels of exercise & times for known course/activities it is quite obvious as you watch the decline over the years.

Yes I know this is aging & I have no problem with that. But if some of the strength loss is due to hormone imbalance or lessening of production AND if topping those up helps reduce the losses safely then I have NO problem at all with it.

Anyway thanks for the info as a result I went & had the total & free tests just out of curiosity. Will be interesting to see the results. Either for use now or as a base line for later in life.

[moe666]

Thanks for all the replies..alot to look at.......I had just come back from USA and had my blood work done at local VA Hospital. Doctor suggesting patches(which they may supply..not sure yet) Or injections (to be done in Thailand)....Doc said both will work...he did at one time , mention cremes....btw..psa is very good......as is my health....except for this.....

If i can get it done with patches, that is the way i want to go...to my original post..where to buy in Chiangmai?

I appreciate all information sent.........none said how many treatments and would i quit them after i got to correct level? Or is this a on going thing...

Thanks again...Chorizo

Not only have your testosterone checked but your estrogen, cordisol, and thyroid they all work together. I would recommend having your DHEA, vit-d3 checked. Why D3 it is the precursor for cholestrol which is the base for all sterodial hormones. Why check estrogen? as we age testosterone is converted to estrogen by amarotese this can be blocked by zinc no more than 90 mg. per day of zinc. By blocking this you will raise your testosterone levels. if you start taking testosterone start taking saw palmentto this helps to block dht from the prostate recepetor sights and allow testosterone into them. DHT is what causes the prostate to swell.

There is a Dr. bangkok who has studied hormone replacement with Dr. therriey Herteoge in Belgium if you pm me I will give you her location and info.My girlfriend has studied with Dr. Herteoge and the program is tops.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

it's a really interesting subject for men's health.

Hopefully this thread is a place where people come back and post about treatment options in Thailand and especially CM.

Also would be helpful if people posted what products are available locally. DId anyone ever located Testosterone patches?

at 48 and really active I personally don't require it right now but when the time is right then it looks a very helpful tool for preserving quality of life.

The science of it can only get better as time goes on.

PS to Orang. No I don't want to get quagmired in your longwinded self absorbed tit for tat posts. In your last one you seem to be suggesting Testosterone/HGH etc is a placebo? <deleted> dude. These are well documented performance enhancing drugs. Performance can mean sports performance or just improved health. When the human body is performing well then it is repairing and maintaining itself. Muscles, organs, tissues need daily repair... When the daily repair performance falls behind the daily damage then it's called aging and degeneration.

[NaiharnGym]

hi,

we have a few testosterone products available now. you can see them http://www.naiharngym.com/store/#ecwid:keywords=testosterone&mode=search&offset=0&sort=relevance

Regards,

Naiharn Gym

[orang37]

... snip .. Hopefully this thread is a place where people come back and post about treatment options in Thailand and especially CM.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

Are you the moderator of this thread now, deciding what's appropriate ? Someone who voices opinions based on solid scientific and medical evidence regarding the potential side-effects of powerful drugs being used without medical review and consultation is somehow off-topic ?

"The science of it can only get better as time goes on."

A statement of faith which I respect as I respect all statements of faith while, at the same time, finding in them: only faith.

"PS to Orang. No I don't want to get quagmired in your longwinded self absorbed tit for tat posts."

Then read our words, and consider them, rather experiencing them as quicksand; perhaps breathe deeper

"In your last one you seem to be suggesting Testosterone/HGH etc is a placebo? <deleted> dude. These are well documented performance enhancing drugs. Performance can mean sports performance or just improved health."

Nothing we have said on this thread implies such powerful drugs are a placebo ! Either you don't know what a placebo is, or you don't understand that testosterone level, like other endocrine regulators, can be, and is, mediated by social/psychological factors.

"When the human body is performing well then it is repairing and maintaining itself. Muscles, organs, tissues need daily repair... When the daily repair performance falls behind the daily damage then it's called aging and degeneration."

Yes, and when we feel sick, we usually don't feel good. And a stitch in time saves nine, and be sure and floss.

Guess what, every chromosome in your body has something called a telomere; and every time the cell replicates that telomere shortens. Telomere ends: game over for the cell. That's called aging, and there are many, many other causes of cell death and mutation, and a vast gamut of obvious reasons for physical deterioration of the human body.

"In 1975–1977, Elizabeth Blackburn, working as a postdoctoral fellow at Yale University with Joseph Gall, discovered the unusual nature of telomeres, with their simple repeated DNA sequences composing chromosome ends. Their work was published in 1978. The telomere shortening mechanism normally limits cells to a fixed number of divisions, and animal studies suggest that this is responsible for aging on the cellular level and sets a limit on lifespans. Telomeres protect a cell's chromosomes from fusing with each other or rearranging — abnormalities that can lead to cancer — and so cells are destroyed when their telomeres are consumed. Most cancers are the result of "immortal" cells that have ways of evading this programmed destruction.^[4]

Elizabeth Blackburn, Carol Greider, and Jack Szostak were awarded the 2009 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for the discovery of how chromosomes are protected by telomeres and the enzyme telomerase.^[5]" From Wikpedia entry on 'Telomere.

"Generalized" chemotherapy, as we've had, is based on the principle of poisoning every cell in the body with the idea of killing off those "immortal" cancer cells (technically called 'inducing cell apoptosis'). It's a wager that "normal cells," mortal as they are, have greater capacity for repair and rejuvenation, and will return. And of course often combined with radiation specifically targeting the cancer, as well as, often surgery, as required.

To us a really interesting aspect of the whole aging process involves the mitochondrial DNA, which is, in a way, "immortal," in that it passes unchanged down the materal line (some male mitochondrial DNA is used in the tail that lets sperm swim which is usually "disposable" after use; rare male mitochondrial DNA which does happen to "make it through to the egg" is then marked by a protein named 'ubiquitin, and is then destroyed by the egg).

Paradoxically this "immortal" female mitochondrial DNA which goes straight back to the first women ("African Eves") is subject to high mutation rates in the body, and vulnerable to oxidation, particularly. The remains of the outlaw Jessie James, and the remains of the Empress and the daughters of the last Russian Tsar were both identified through comparison of their mitochondrial DNA with known living relatives DNA. Very interesting current research is examining the role of mitochondrial DNA and its mutation and damage in aging.

Welcome to the "miracle" of the human body ... as revealed by science !

best, ~o:37;

[CMX]

Well say, at least - are we not agreed: That medicines and drugs are powerful? That they sometimes have effects that show up later? (I am personally very bitter that Statins were said to have negative side effects in 1 in 10,000 - for a long time after it was clear that muscle problems of a severe nature happen more frequently.)

That large scale studies about the long term effects of drugs are rarely thorough, if for no other reason than that the evolution of new chemistry is increasing incredibly?

And that to medicate one's self without careful investigation may well do serious harm? (For example, some pills mentioned above, as opposed to injections, may well be more harmful to the liver - thus the need not only for initial tests but follow-ups?)

And if many of us can agree on these matters, then let us join together and celebrate that Orang is correct in everything he states, as usual, and likely to be right in suppositions and conjectures. That he is sometimes a tiny bit effusive on these pages is a blessing, for me at least, and even though I have to work very hard reading - not at all like going to a Stallone movie, but a lot less bloody.

Edited October 16, 2010 by CMX

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Orang

I think it's an interesting subject. You can start arguments with whoever but can't say I am interested in debating a YES or NO to hormone usage question. I look at it like a tool I might use in the future. LIke a martial artist. A student could learn about many techniques and perhaps employ them in the right situation. Perhaps not.

If you don't want to take Testo etc then don't take it.... Maybe you can't afford it or something.

I would like to hear more about available options in "Chiang Mai" or Thailand.. Remember the forum relevance?

I am not running out to buy testosterone or hormone boosting supplements but it's something I might personally test at some point particularly for a certain injury or rehabilitation. The use of anabolic agents can be short term or cyclical. An individual could try a protocol and discontinue it based on objective or subjective feedback.

What's really in it for you? When you write do you think about what your trying to accomplish? To persuade someone who might be interested in performance enhancement from trying something new? To decide a complex and individual specific choice in a forum of non experts?

I don't care about being defensive on particular positon. You just want to argue with someone?

Relax. Do you have nothing better to do?

I was trying to guide the discussion into a constructive and relevant direction. Not a power play for your rambling pulpit.... ramble on Orang.

[jayinoz]

Deciding to take HGH and Testo in MY 30s...

I have no issue with those touting hormone type products, yet personally I will only take what is scientifically proven and a well known brand name. Injectibles only as do not wish to harm my liver...

I just had my levels checked (Testo and the works yesterday) and I am now off approx 16% from peaks in low 20s). Yet I only mid 30s- so it dropping faster than expected due to a little more sedate yet still fairly fit but no longer a competitive athlete. Moreso the aging process in general- some may laugh at mid 30 yos being worried yet I have goals i wish to achieve that are relatively high.

Now another poster mentioned they still think they not old enough to need at 48yo, as they active. Being active accounts for approx 5% of overall testo- your levels will be down 25%+ from when you were 25yo and you will know it.

Overall it depends on the person and what you wish to achieve. More lean muscle or bulk, less fat with fewer workout sounds very appealing to many of us. As we simply do not have the time or lazy to strength work out or strength work outs cause more pain- as they do very much... Thus stops us from exercising- workouts = pain. Now who wants ST pain for LT gain- mentally sounds fine yet deep down we all struggle to continue high intensity training. Especially when I tried Sly S workout from his book- I could bearly move for a week. Yet I am assured that recovery time and muscle healing is very quick on these supplements and this is what I need. But I do not wish to workout like a mad man and be a gym junkie, so what to do to achieve my goals. Lead a more scientifically advanced life with supplements, good nutrition and some workouts (Not huge amounts yet still needed to achieve goals). Many could do NO workouts and still benefit greatly- as the more sedate men seem to improve the greatest on the supplements and sometimes they enticed to lead a slightly more active life as they see more and more benefits. So in reality it for everyone, man, women- not child naturally- as then u messing around too much with nature. Yet dwarf's take it in child years to increase height and some other conditions. I would never use it on my kids to simply make them a little taller, etc. That is too much messy around with nature. Yet if my 1yo was a dwarf and medically recommended, so be it. Yet if he genetically set to be 180cm, same as his father, I see no need to make him 200cm.

Fact is that many I know in their 20s and 30s simply take supplements to have less pain and get same results. As an example a mate whom is a fitness model needed to work out 3 hours per day, 6 days pw to maintain his fitness to gain work and more money. Now on the HGH and Testo he works out 3x pw for only 30 min... he has it down to a scientific art form- whilst I admit he eats probably a 70% protein diet as well. As he states nutrition and supplements make up over 70% of the work, most of the rest is genetics and exercise.

Yet with help you can change your genetic make up to a certain degree.You need discipline and monitoring for most- as nutrition and some exercise still important to achieve whatever goals you may have. Whether comp body building, strength, anti aging, longevity, health, modelling\acting, etc- most of us mere mortals need help.

So I am getting some Jintropin (HGH) and Sustanon (Testo) for the next few months to see the improvements. As I want my levels back to their peak now I have thought about it throughtout this thread. I am fairly fit yet wish to be as fit as possible. I have goals and motivations guiding me- some of them career related, some vanity and some longevity. Overall I want a scientific approach to my lifestyle to achieve my goals, without the excesses of competition body builders. Yet I have friends whom are body builders (So I have nothing against them), royal body guards, nutritionists, models, actors, fitness instructors and simply businessmen who wish to be in tip top shape in mind and body. If is comforting to know that YOU can take charge of your life and even have some control over the aging process. Aging is happening to all- we cannot change it yet we can change how we age in this technologically advanced world. We are no longer dying at an average age of 40-50yo like 100 years ago. 1 from every 2 children born now will exceed 100 years in age- why biotech advancements- WOW what an age to be living in- I say. Where you can take so much control of your destiny.

To have a goal or emulate someone you admire (Not Sly by the way) I think all of us do emualate others to some level. This is healthy and makes us wish to be better. So I need these supplements now I am in my 30s to achieve my goals without the very very hard work of continuous strength training, only occasional cardio and strength, Which suits my lifestyle and ambitions. For not a great deal of money pm, plus the costs will come down over time.

Now I will get my supplements from a fitness and longevity centre mate in BKK and be monitored medically in BKK- as cost wise they far better and I do not wish to import as I trust them. Plus their margins are very small as it mate's rate (Import cost + shipping). Yet I grab them items from Aussie and others when I can, so help for help. Saving me a couple of hundred pm- costing me near $300pm all up- beautiful.

Yet I looking around CMai for a specialist in this field, as do not wish to pop down to BKK every 3 months for all my tests and medical monitoring.

Now legally it is fine with a script and I will always carry my script when travelling on the plane. As they will open my carry on bags to find vials and needles and maybe think the worst. So the script is needed and medical monitoring is needed for me to feel safe.Although many buddies no longer need this after many years.

I will have another full blood work up in 3 months and my levels should be back to my peak- then I wish them to always stay at their peak. Even when an old man. Fact is I will stay in the best fitness I can manage with health as I age and scientifically monitor that I will have a body that functions as a 25yo indefinately. It is possible in this day and age with discipline and supplemental help- even an 90yo can do. Which may sound preverse to many as it is artificial- yet for me it is embracing the future in health, fitness and longevity. To be optimal in your body and mind- if you optimal in body then you more likely to be more alert in mind.

Mind wise we have many supplements that can improve cognitive functions now and great advancements have been made in the last 5 years. Once again medical monitoring on some of this drugs natural- yet fish oil, etc a proven natural alternative. Learning multi languages, memory exercises, chess, puzzles, complex thinking is proven to improve memory and cognitive functioning. So all this to me is fascinating and I like it all as apart of my lifestyle.

Naturally dosage will need to go up in my 40s, 50s etc to stay at the level of my Peak 20-25yo past body. Internally and externally. Overall health will benefit from an early start as long as I do not up levels to fanatical comp body building levels. As side affect happen at much higher levels like 20-30iu plus levels daily- 3iu is optimal for health, longevity, fat burn and some muscle building. 5iu if muscle building not as effective or my levels are not back to a 20-25yo young man in 3 months.

All up this investment will cost me only $300pm- for my money it a good investment to reach the goals I wish and maintain optimal health. In Aussie it would cost x4 the cost, so then this would make me think twice. Yet $300 is only a couple of good nights out.

Yet when you start- it best not to stop as your body will quickly revert back to hormone levels that are true for your age and genetics.

Now as non medical advice- each to their own I say. Most will say vanity is your curse to start HGH in your 30s, so be it. As i see too many young and middle aged and older men and women benefit far too much for me to keep sitting back and waiting to reach middle age. Now I say WHY do I wait to age- just take control now and you more likely to reach all your goals that are physical, financial, social and mental.

Thise like Orang37 will give me a hard time- but who really cares.... Ultimately it everbodies individual choice whether you wish to be in peak condition whether an athlete, laymen, aging (As we all are), body builder, model, businessman, teacher, etc. Those that condemn are niave and do not know the science behind this lifestyle choice.

IMO

It is available over the counter in many countries, yet have expert monitoring and encouragement for a few extra bucks. I have the experts all available and in continual touch in BKK. Many have achieved their goals or succeeding on some level through the help of this supplements. Yet do keep yourself in check, as the guys say you will notice get improvement to state of body and mind within a month... do not up levels thinking you will be even better. As then side affects can hit you, or more likely too.

Anyway i will keep the thread up to date and look around CMai for a medical centre that specializes in this- then tell all CMai n's whom are interested to research. DO not believe the hype from the people who say it only for the vain, as we all are in some way and we all wish to stay young in mind and body for as long as possible.

Basically with the crowd around me- there is some sort of peer pressure when you see guys achieving the goals you wish. Yet competition of sorts is healthy. It is my choice to include it as apart of my lifestyle and the benefits far outweigh any risks proven scientifically- yet i understand the doubt by others due to the very small percentage of abusers.

Each to their own.... OK Orang let's hear it- Lol.

Cheers Jay

:jap:

[CMX]

What we have here is a (Western) culture clash. A hint of this came with the mention of Sylvester. But the matter becomes confused because insulting personal references never help advance understanding - just the reverse.

The fulcrum seems to be body versus mind - absolutely unnecessary, of course. We're told that ancient Greeks (probably the geek Greeks) wrote of a balance as being admirable. But the difference in what we nowadays call lifestyle (much reading, let us say, OR working out a lot is not the issue here, I guess). What can drugs do for us?

Virtually NO body enhancing medicines have been tested long term for longevity in large scale studies. So even with monitoring, they involve risks anyway, quite arguably to longevity. Organ functions and internal chemistry are little understood, in spite of all our advances. We are in the beginnings of our explorations of the mechanics of body and mind. Taking any drug involves serious risks. On the other hand, not reading (I worry about this) or studying beyond my fixed opinions make me narrow minded.

I know of "writer" types who are almost as thin and muscular as bicycle racers. One somewhat maligned contributor above rides bicycles all the time and seeks out soy milk. I've met a few dedicated body-builders who don't have time for TV. I myself have much to do to learn about the soul and spirit as described by Buddhists. (Yep, we all have our goals.)

Drugs are dangerous; monitoring is essential, and still, the jury's out on risks and longevity for most of the pharmaceuticals out there. Even our understandings of diet are being modified. We are test subjects early on, guinea pigs.

Although everyone says that it is not the reason for the topic, testosterone is known to enhance lust, put a spring in one's step, and sometimes add to one's sense of alertness. Unlike learning, no drug can confer any wisdom.

Edited October 17, 2010 by CMX