Testosterone

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Brother Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

We are, indeed, sorry that you experience our words as arguing "at" you, rather than "with" you in the spirit of healthy debate; but your reactions (praise be !) belong to you.

We enjoy the act of trying to articulate our dim understanding of the colossal revelations of modern science that have occurred in only the last twenty years, that, in combination with the astounding advances in genetic science, sociobiology, cognitive psychology and its neurological basis, have begun to at last "ground" western sciences' ability to cope with and speak meaningfully about "consciousness."

As to what quantum mechanics and cosmology are telling us, we'd have to agree with the remarks of "string theorist" Juan Maldacena who said, at a conference: "anyone who thinks they understand string theory does not understand string theory." This statement of Maldacena was followed, we read, by the music for "Hey Macarena" being played and the entire audience standing and singing along, substituting "Hey Maldacena" for the chorus hook.

This thread started about people in Chiang Mai using very powerful drugs that complexly modify many interdependent systems of the body/mind. It's rather impossible not to respond to this topic without talking about "people" in "general," unless we view Chiang Mai expats as a unique sub-species (a hypothesis we admit we have sometimes considered)

We assert our comments are written, at least in part, out of concern for the welfare of those persons, who happen to be in Chiang Mai. We believe these drugs are dangerous used even in the context of the best medical supervision. A "civic duty" to "stand up" for what we believe and think is "healthy" ?

Feel free not to read anything we write which you don't like You do experience that freedom, don't you ?

We apologize sincerely if any of our comments to you have been ad hominem in either substance or sub-text !

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 17, 2010 by orang37

[orang37]

Well say, at least - are we not agreed: That medicines and drugs are powerful? That they sometimes have effects that show up later? (I am personally very bitter that Statins were said to have negative side effects in 1 in 10,000 - for a long time after it was clear that muscle problems of a severe nature happen more frequently.)

That large scale studies about the long term effects of drugs are rarely thorough, if for no other reason than that the evolution of new chemistry is increasing incredibly?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

Your comments above, for us, also raise the issue of the co-optation (and at times corruption) of academic research by the large pharmaceutical companies, and by the increasing pressure for scientists at major-league institutions to found "spin-offs" to commercialize research which is only just beginning to illuminate certain complex aspects of disease ... and health.

"let us join together and celebrate that Orang is correct in everything he states, as usual, and likely to be right in suppositions and conjectures. That he is sometimes a tiny bit effusive on these pages is a blessing, for me at least, and even though I have to work very hard reading - not at all like going to a Stallone movie, but a lot less bloody."

... uhhh ... we appreciate the gracious spirit of these words, but must demur, Sir: we are only a flea on a tick on the ear of a mangy soi dog gnawing at cast-off bones with worn-down teeth on a refuse heap outside modern science, and with a severe case of indigestion. Anything we say may only dimly reflect the wisdom of our betters, like Stephen Pinker, Edward Wilson, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Jay Gould, Andrew Weill, Steve Jones, and so many others.

The ancient Romans had a motto: "mens sana in corpore sano," "healthy mind in a healthy body." The Roman emperor Tiberius said anyone who saw a physician after age thirty was a fool (he had good reason to say so: many of the Roman physicians of that time were Greeks who were also skilled poisoners-for-hire). We've personally seen razor sharp tools for surgery in a museum in Delhi used in Ayurvedic medicine thousands of years ago. While western Europe simmered for centuries in the darkness of an oppressive literal-minded violent murderous corrupt Christianity punctuated by episodes of plague, the Arab world (to some extent the also Christian Byzantine world) continued a non-stop millineum of study and practice of the best of Greek and Roman medicine from original texts and from commentaries based on original texts, and that knowledge, passed into the west via the "interface" between Moorish southern Spain and Europe (and through Italy, and through returning "crusaders") resulted in the "great heroes" of early "western" medicine, conveniently renamed with western sounding names (Averroes, Avicenna) to disguise their identity as Arabs.

And while the Christian hordes were busy periodically killing and burning Jews (organized looting often the motive, as well as "ethnic cleansing"), many high courts of Europe utilized Jewish physicians who had benefited from the intense cultural contact of great minds like Maimonides with Arab science (also renamed to disguise his Jewish origins).

best, ~o:37;

[moe666]

There is scientific proof that testosterone supplimentation has added benefits to the aging body. It will lower cholestrol levels, lower high blood pressure, and help the body to heal itself faster. The example of lower cholestrol is a easy one to explain in that cholestrol is a precursor for testosterone. When the levels of testosterone fall with age the body will produce more cholestrol trying to produce more by supplementing we can lower the cholestrol levels. The body will have enough testosterone and will stop making cholestrol trying to make up the difference.

HRT is not for everyone some people are happy to age with all of it down sides while more are trying to make their later years more comfortable and enjoyable.

As an aside just because you are young doesn't mean you donot need HRT. There are many physical traits that can indicate low testosterone. Men with a baby face may not have had enough testosterone during puberity, men with excess body hair have to much DHT, bald men could have excess testosterone which converts to DHT. Men with man boobs excess estrogen.

Do the research it is availiable .

Edited October 17, 2010 by moe666

[orang37]

... snip ... Virtually NO body enhancing medicines have been tested long term for longevity in large scale studies. So even with monitoring, they involve risks anyway, quite arguably to longevity. Organ functions and internal chemistry are little understood, in spite of all our advances. We are in the beginnings of our explorations of the mechanics of body and mind. ... snip ...

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

This article, in today's on-line New York Times, by Gina Kolata, "When Drugs Cause Problems They Are Supposed to Prevent," seems so apropos of what you stated above that we just broke our vow to shut-up on this thread . Kolata's Article

As we commented before, the "door that has just been opened" in understanding the epigenetic effects on DNA and protein-synthesis via transcription: that experiences in utero, and childhood, can affect gene expression, and protein manufacture, for some number of generations forward ! This human meat package and its two occupants will probably be dust before the twenty years have passed in which the enormous implications of this for medicine, and for bio-engineering, will be "fleshed" out.

A good source of material on epigenetics: Epigenome Network (Europe)

And then there's also: "DNA sequencing has taken us “down the rabbit hole” as I commonly hear. Yes, interpreting DNA sequences is difficult. But on the way to the $1000 genome, we now know the genome is not enough. There is the “epigenome,” or pattern of methylation on the DNA. ... the “transcriptome” that tells which genes are actually transcribed into RNA or proteins. There is copy-number variation, which explains why some people metabolize drugs faster or slower than the average. And my personal favorite, there is the “metabolome,” which is the ensemble of all metabolic products of what we eat / drink / smoke etc., but that includes metabolic products of the bacteria in our guts, which do not share our genome." quote from a comment by Aurelio Rodriguez on a NYT article, "Genome Mania, by Stephen Quake: look here for: Rodriquez' comment

Hello, "Brave New World," in which we, human primate containers, particularly the male flavor, will, in all likelihood continue to operate with an instintictual/emotional apparatus oriented to sexual dominance, territoriality, violence, etc., appropriate to 50,000 years ago, assuming we have not destroyed the planet, almost all other species on it, and ourselves. Cockroaches will almost certainly survive given their incredible ability to withstand radiation.

best, ~o:37;

[Mapguy]

My bet is on the cockroaches!

[fridgemagnet]

Just read the whole thread through - talk about baffled by science, a lot of which is out of date.

If you up your testosterone, pretty soon (few months) your body will try to get back to it's chosen equilibrium, by upping SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin), which converts free testosterone to bound, useless, testosterone., and aromatase, which converts testosterone to estrogen. Current thought is that estrogen, in concert with DHT ( di-hydro testosterone, made from testosterone with the assistance of 5 alpha reductase), promote prostate growth, and trigger prostate cancer. Young men, brimming with testosterone, rarely get prostate trouble.

You can reduce aromatase with an aromatase inhibitor, such as Arimidex, or Aromasin, but some estrogen is necessary for health, even for males. SHBG increases with age.

I don't think you can block SHBG, not yet, anyway. Pity - that may well help to do what's required.

Getting levels tested in CM, and supplimentary injections of test, should be no problem, and cheap. The BNF recommend one shot of test fortnightly, or even monthly, for hormone replacement therapy.

Lifestyle changes are indicated, if your testosterone is low.

Edited October 17, 2010 by fridgemagnet

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Just read the whole thread through - talk about baffled by science, a lot of which is out of date.

If you up your testosterone, pretty soon (few months) your body will try to get back to it's chosen equilibrium, by upping SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin), which converts free testosterone to bound, useless, testosterone., and aromatase, which converts testosterone to estrogen. Current thought is that estrogen, in concert with DHT ( di-hydro testosterone, made from testosterone with the assistance of 5 alpha reductase), promote prostate growth, and trigger prostate cancer. Young men, brimming with testosterone, rarely get prostate trouble.

You can reduce aromatase with an aromatase inhibitor, such as Arimidex, or Aromasin, but some estrogen is necessary for health, even for males. SHBG increases with age.

I don't think you can block SHBG, not yet, anyway. Pity - that may well help to do what's required.

Getting levels tested in CM, and supplimentary injections of test, should be no problem, and cheap. The BNF recommend one shot of test fortnightly, or even monthly, for hormone replacement therapy.

Lifestyle changes are indicated, if your testosterone is low.

Fridgemagnet....

Sounds like you have studied this a bit.

Any suggestions on online resources like forums, primers etc to get up to speed on these bio chemistry topics?

I have definitely seen products and discussion focusing on SHBG as being important but my foundation is weak. Any pointers?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I found this two page article on Male Hormone Restoration from the Life Extension Foundation (Lef.org). They have been around for about 30 years and have a good track record for integrating the various modalities of nutrition, supplements and drugs where appropriate.

Provides some foundation and detail to what Fridgemagnet was explaining about SHBG and aromatase issues etc. Also information about Testosterone levels and cholesterol as alluded to by Moe666. Interesting stuff.

Article has good overview of necessary testing and goes into strategies of interpreting test data and offering sample treatment plans.

Interestingly there are a number of herbs and vitamins which play a major role in some scenarios and which have been shown to disrupt SHBG.

Some of the supplements and herbs seem to be available in Thailand and others would need to be imported.

Here is the two page article. Well worth reading.

Male Hormone Restoration

[CMX]

Above article has some balance, I agree. Crux of even their conclusions is that testings by "qualified" doctors MUST be done. They do not say so explicitly, but they seem to suggest a regular monitoring. Incidentally, finding prostate cancer early does not yet assure a happy outcome.

Readers should note, of course, that the outfit publishing the info. is selling a lot of products. Thus, while describing some mechanics of the body, we find expressions such as "associated with" - real quagmires, as they tend to give the impression of being a cause, rather than something we do not yet understand.

Also, it is not even asserted anywhere that chemical therapies such as injections result in increases of long term quality of life or extended life. There are references to studies, to be sure (each of which should be regarded with healthy skepticism, as we don't know the sponsors and their interests - remember studies of cigarette safety by manufacturers? - let alone the quality/size of each study). In fact, studies not published in reputable journals of science should be highly suspect in the first place.

The article does outline many dangers related to hormone therapy. For safety, we should rely upon that hypothetical "qualified" doctor. Since there are no long term studies of the effects of pharmaceutical interventions regarding life extension (by independent researchers) in hormone therapy, one wonders where the doctor gets such knowledge.

As I wrote above, we are just getting started in our understanding of the complexities of the body, and drug therapy of most kinds don't have established track records. Doesn't preclude taking a chance, of course, but there are no certitudes or even assurances suggested in the article regarding chemical interventions.

Edited October 19, 2010 by CMX

[rikki]

I just had some tests done.

I asked for the tests mentioned above, however the doc said this an that, and so I ended up with the

Total Testosterone and PSA test results

Also the blood tests, sugar, cholestorol.

All OK, except a bit too much sugar and animal fats.

So now I want free testosterone and Estrogen level tests

Where do they do this in Chiang Mai?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

From the previous article.

"Most conventional physicians accept testosterone levels that are far too low. Normal ranges usually reflect population averages among men of a particular age. This assumes, however, that decreasing hormone levels are acceptable and normal."

So saying wait until its 20% below normal. Normal what? Avg of the unhealthy population? Total Testosterone? Free T?

Also seems like ranges can vary quite a bit by individual.

Rikki and CMX seems to be on the right track. Good quality testing. Let's try to nail down some local sources of the comprehensive blood tests that provide the necessary data for an expert to interpret. By locating and performing the right tests then quality baseline data can be established.

Total testosterone looks misleading at best. Free Testosterone and Estrogen w/ ratios look essential. DHEA, Homocystein. TSH. PSA. SHBG etc.

If anyone would like to share local test options then including this kind of data would be helpful to others in the future.

Test facility. Name and location

Test options and what values are reported. How to order the proper test.

Cost, turn around time, misc.

Maybe working together we can locate and recommend the best local testing for a reasonable price... Along with directions on how to get them done without having to reinvent the wheel or incur a lot of unnecessary fee's.

CMX... have you seen any male hormone testing and treatment frameworks you recommend? Perhaps a specific foreign clinic or MD with an online presence?

This might be a job for "Telemedicine". Acquire the tests locally and email/fax/mail them to an expert in another city/country for consultation. Unless somebody can pull a rabbit out their hat and recommend someone really qualified locally.

Even using someone in BKK would be helpful to test locally and consult over the internet and telephone.

A remote consulting physician or clinician could be used in conjunction with a local physician or facility to issue prescriptions or administer therapies.

[rikki]

The doctor told me that he could tell by looking at me, and the answers I gave about my health, that I was not low in testosterone.

I have no reason to doubt that he is a good doctor,

Anyway, it is my own decision to investigate further.

Also, the pharmacy at Macro is no longer there

best quote so far is 850bt for a box (60) of Andriol

Anyone find them for less?

[THAIPHUKET]

Bumrungrad claims to know the subject.

http://www.bumrungrad.com/mens-health-center/hypogonadism.aspx?gclid=CLf7oPvt4KQCFVJB6wodAjPWKw

[heybruce]

I didn't make it through every word of the above, but I think it can be summarized as:

1. See a doctor you trust and ask that your hormone levels be checked.

2. If the doctor advises that hormone supplements can safely improve your quality of life, use them.

3. Take cheap shots at celebrities and/or other TV posters.

Did I miss anything important?

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I didn't make it through every word of the above, but I think it can be summarized as:

1. See a doctor you trust and ask that your hormone levels be checked.

2. If the doctor advises that hormone supplements can safely improve your quality of life, use them.

3. Take cheap shots at celebrities and/or other TV posters.

Did I miss anything important?

Nothing really get's examined or decided that well on TV. Angry sailors and primates with keyboards. I would use the thread as a hint to explore a topic of great importance to an aging male and conduct further research.

If your making personal medical decisions based on TV forums then consider praying more also.

I personally found this article helpful so I will pass it on.. I am sure it's not gospel and there are other perhaps better approaches. If anyone else has frameworks for hormone management then please post them.

Consider giving it a read.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_01.htm

http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_02.htm

[CMX]

I regret noting the address yesterday of a front page article in the N.Y. Times. It dealt with hormone replacement in menopausal women to avoid pains.

Turns out that cancer rates went up in those taking it ON THE BEST advice doctors knew how to give.

My point has been that hormone therapy is at an early and incomplete stage of understanding. We may well experience the effects that are known (which are as usual peddled by those who sell products), but we cannot know the trade-offs long term, even if we are fully informed about what is known now.

This is not an inconsequential consideration. Big C means more than a store's name.

This is not to suggest that folks should not make their choice and pay their money. Just that it is clear to those who can see it that it is a risky business, far more than hucksters and their sales-pitches suggest.

Edited October 21, 2010 by CMX

[THAIPHUKET]

Here some professional evaluation =

Source = Cleveland Clinic http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/testosterone_replacement_therapy/hic_testosterone_replacement_therapy.aspx

What options are available for testosterone replacement? The options available for testosterone replacement are:

• intramuscular injections, generally every two or three weeks
• testosterone patches worn either on the body or on the scrotum (the sac that contains the testicles). These patches are used daily. The body patch application is rotated between the buttocks, arms, back or abdomen.
• testosterone gels that are applied daily to the shoulders, upper arms, or abdomen.

Each of these options provides adequate levels of hormone replacement. Each has side effects and advantages and disadvantages. Intramuscular injections produce wider swings in hormone concentration, with higher levels shortly after the injection and lower levels just before the next injection is due. They may also produce increases in blood cell count that are higher than normal.

The body patches may produce skin irritation in a significant number of men, requiring discontinuation of the patch. The gels require care in making sure that the hormone is not accidentally transferred to another person or partner.

What are the side effects of testosterone replacement therapy?

In general, hormone replacement therapy is safe. It is associated with some side effects, including:

• acne or oily skin
• mild fluid retention
• stimulation of prostate tissue, with perhaps some increased urination symptoms such as decreased stream or frequency
• breast enlargement
• worsening of sleep apnea (a sleep disorder that results in frequent night time awakenings and daytime sleepiness)
• decreased testicular size

Many of these side effects are not common.

General Observation=

Life is risky the moment that you were conceived. Any one crossing of a road can be lethal.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Here are some interesting tables of avg total testosterone, free testosterone, SHBG which some might find helpful.

If an individual has normal age adjusted range Total Test but low free test then supplementing testosterone would be less attractive. Reducing SHBG by introducing dietary choices and herbs would be preferable.

Low overall Testosterone would more indicate Testosterone replacement. Other options like bolstering precursors in nutrition could also increase total numbers.

Keep in mind that average is just that.. average.... Many think optimal is toward the top of each range.

[jayinoz]

Wow- have not read this thread for a few days and BOOM. I was unsure why there was no more interest by the young, middle aged and old in hormone replacement- as it is now and the future. If done correctly you can in fact turn back the hands of time...then slow it down.

Let us not have our views scarred by the very few abusers, let us not let our government try to restrict access. We will do what we want- when we want with our bodies, mind and our own time- that is my view. I could care less about the few who have tried to give self rightous lectures on the thread. I think the views of the majority are shining through....

HGH and testo replacement is here to stay for aging men and women- it will be far more common place when our children are middle aged.

Simply look at the middle aged stars and older these days- Tom Cruise, Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt, Sly- then compare with middle aged stars of decades ago. What is wrong with this picture- the stars whom are around 50 look to be healthy 30 something year olds. As perfect as they were a decade or 2 ago. Older stars simply look and are physically younger- why- diet and exercise-Lol... HGH and testo replacement- yes. As well as the odd nip and tuck. Inside and outside they far better off now.

BBC had a whole series on it under the heading 'Living forever' and large portion advocated HGH. Your health should be Priority No 1- without it what can you enjoy. Those who think it simply for the vain are mistaken and not educated in the process. The abuse from the 80s and 90s by body builders affected public opinion today- IMO.

Anyway my point is if you can look, feel and can be healthier and look better-- then why the hel_l not. If you can afford it. Price wise the supplements coming down more and more as competition builds. So more of us can afford it now... whereas it was restrictive at over $1000pm 5 years ago. Now we look at $300pm- good deal and still coming down.

Quality of life should be priority 1 on everyones list- yet I see many wasting their time.... why because the media, peers, your family condemn the abusers and you will face a social stigma. Really who cares- many of us stay in Thailand more than our homelands for one main reason- we feel we have more freedom- in general. Let our homelands ponder the obese epidemic sweeping their lands while we do something about our own health. Whether they like it or not.

I am just back from Aussie after seeing clients- and I tell you everytime I am back in my homeland it feels more restricted and ruled. Coming from BKK with a whole lot of supplements to last many many months- as I have not found any 'Expert' suppliers to trust in CMai as yet. Also I have found no doctors in CMai that really know a darn thing.

Everyone over 35yo should be taking supplements and taking control of their health. Under this age then your test results should need to be sluggish or your ambitions are in body building, fitness modelling, etc.

Feel free to PM me as many have... as I will simply point you in the right direction. Yet CMai specialists lacks the right direction but I know some whom are working on that.

A supplier to the stars is coming to CMai, as he tells me... Specialist to Sly when he was in Thai for his movies. I think he should give a talk to those interested. PM those interested and I will show him a conference up here will not be a waste of time. Hands UP guys and girls!

Cheers Jay

:jap:

[CMX]

Cleveland Clinic study also says:

In general, hormone replacement therapy is safe. It is associated with some side effects, including:

• acne or oily skin
• mild fluid retention
• stimulation of prostate tissue, with perhaps some increased urination symptoms such as decreased stream or frequency
• breast enlargement
• worsening of sleep apnea (a sleep disorder that results in frequent night time awakenings and daytime sleepiness)
• decreased testicular size

Many of these side effects are not common.

Laboratory abnormalities that can occur with hormone replacement include:

• changes in cholesterol concentrations
• increase in red cell count
• decrease in sperm count, producing infertility (especially in younger men)

If you are taking hormone replacement therapy, regular follow-up appointments with your physician are important.

***************

Thus, going to the pharmacy on one's own suggests risk, getting treatment from an knowledgeable physician a minor risk which with careful monitoring which may keep adverse effects in check before harm.

And no longevity figures are available.

PS. My belief is that most film stars and other entertainers spend many hours keeping fit through exercise, diet, and themselves good looking through expensive surgery and appearance treatments, makeup, doubles, and editing out the zits.

Nothing suggests hormone therapy of the group on any scale. OK, maybe the Governor of the State of California or a few others, but on the other hand he's not been able to pronounce English after decades of practice, so we may have many more adverse secondary results.

Edited October 23, 2010 by CMX

[jayinoz]

Cleveland Clinic study also says:

In general, hormone replacement therapy is safe. It is associated with some side effects, including:

• acne or oily skin
• mild fluid retention
• stimulation of prostate tissue, with perhaps some increased urination symptoms such as decreased stream or frequency
• breast enlargement
• worsening of sleep apnea (a sleep disorder that results in frequent night time awakenings and daytime sleepiness)
• decreased testicular size

Many of these side effects are not common.

Laboratory abnormalities that can occur with hormone replacement include:

• changes in cholesterol concentrations
• increase in red cell count
• decrease in sperm count, producing infertility (especially in younger men)

If you are taking hormone replacement therapy, regular follow-up appointments with your physician are important.

***************

Thus, going to the pharmacy on one's own suggests risk, getting treatment from an knowledgeable physician a minor risk which with careful monitoring which may keep adverse effects in check before harm.

And no longevity figures are available.

PS. My belief is that most film stars and other entertainers spend many hours keeping fit through exercise, diet, and themselves good looking through expensive surgery and appearance treatments, makeup, doubles, and editing out the zits.

Nothing suggests hormone therapy of the group on any scale. OK, maybe the Governor of the State of California or a few others, but on the other hand he's not been able to pronounce English after decades of practice, so we may have many more adverse secondary results.

Good reseach now being performed by many on the thread to find out HGH and Testo replacement therapy is not as scary as people have made out in the media. Take the HUGE Chinese women swimmers over a decade ago at the 92 to 96 Olympics- now that was clearly abusing these young girls...this stigma still remains. Rightly so it is banned in most sports as it makes you superior to what you would otherwise be. I remember Ben Johnson smashing that world record- saw how much larger muscle wise and thought what is he on... even as a kid I could see he had an unfair advantage.

In terms of simply thinking it diet and exercise keeping the aging super stars looking fit and healthy is wrong. HGH is rife throughout hollywood and it is a good lifestyle choice for them and now most in this world. If they can afford it and have a professional to monitor them, or are an expert themselves.

To my family in Aussie I would be reluctant to state I look and feel younger due to HGH... my family in Thai accepts it is my lifestyle choice- better than getting drunk every other day I say.

We all need that bit of extra of help as we age or we simply do not have the genetics to get to where we wish to get too. So we need this help.

Side affects wise- like any drug or supplement you are far less likely to get anything if taken as directed. Overdo it and of course you get side affects.

The social stigma of HGH is even worse than stating you have had a face lift or breasts done these days. Hollywood want us to think they are Oh naturale due to the social stigma.The botox world is here to stay and HGH is the botox for the body inside and out- metophorically speaking.

What is acceptable in the minds of society shoud not be a concern when you making a lifestyle choice for yourself. In fact many staying in Thailand probably feel a stigma attached to them saying they live in Thailand- yet i have never thought about it. Then I am shocked when my younger brother states he hears men stay over there just because prostition is more accepted. It has a social stigma that never bothers me. So I re-educate to boy's mind to be more accepting of others lifestyle choices and mine.

Like gf's who get breast done- if they have the $$$ and it will improve their self confidence- go fot it.

HGH to control the aging process is becoming more accepted yet some attach the social stigma brand. I agree with advocates that in a decade the stigma will be gone- yet there will always be abusers. Like with any drug or supplement... thus the governments need to control. In Thailand we are more in control of ourselves- we must control many aspects that we took for granted back in our homelands (Drink driving, protecting ourselves with girls, etc)- thus why many newcomers go wild with the girls and can find themselves in big trouble later on. No big brother government really is looking over our shoulder with strict rules over here.

Anyway each to their own- up to the individual to make up their own minds.

Yet Hollywood is rife with HGH and good for them... We end up following hollywood anyway, so all a matter of time.

Simply take your supplements correctly and as directed and you will not get any side affects- most do NOT. Accept the positive side affects of more lean muscle, less fat, burning 500 extra Cal per day without doing a thing, better organ health, stronger bones, thicker and smoother skin, recovery from illnesses and workouts faster etc, etc. Longevity wise- nothing proven yet quality of LIFE wise it thoroughly proven. I advise people look into it- if aging a concern to you... lets face it- it a concern for most.

If you had 40 years left- would you want them full of energy and with a better quality or not- for me the choice is very simple. If a money issue for some- then wait till it $100pm in a decade.

Cheers Jay

:jap:

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I think it's really hard for people to wrap their minds around hormone modification. Perhaps it's best to not try to force it into a simple good or bad box because hormone therapy and modification encompasses so many different practices.

Bio Identical hormones versus patented hormone drugs

Hormone precursors

Enzyme supplements and drugs to alter hormone functions

Diet modification emphasizing or avoiding hormone mimicking foods

Herbs and supplements that bind or inactivate unfavorable hormones. (eg Saw Palmetto lowering SHBG)

Exercise and activity patterns

Hormones are how our organs communicate and regulate our bodies. Everything we do in life affects our hormones.

Drink some alcohol and it's estrogenic

Consume a refined sugar - estrogenic

Exercise and its testosterone boosting

Eat unfermented Soy - estrogenic

Unfortunately the modern world has created a tidal wave of estrogen boosting chemicals.

Petrochemicals, overuse of grains like soy, alcohol, marijuana, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, plastic food and drink containers, your sun screen, soaps and detergents. Toxic metals in air pollution.

Sources of industrial estrogens

Unfortunately there are very few environmental increases of Testosterone or GH (growth hormone) boosters in this industrial age to balance all of these estrogens. Also corresponds to increase in hormone related diseases like breast, ovarian, prostate cancers, obesity, diabetes and many others.

The science of hormones management begins with measurement and that data acts as a feedback loop to change factors to bring about an optimal balance. Some people have the willpower to do things like give up alcohol and exercise hard while others may require the assistance of supplements and replacements. Getting the mixture right is the magic of a healthy quality of life.

Resist the urge to pigeon hole such an important field and learn more about it.

[moe666]

I regret noting the address yesterday of a front page article in the N.Y. Times. It dealt with hormone replacement in menopausal women to avoid pains.

Turns out that cancer rates went up in those taking it ON THE BEST advice doctors knew how to give.

My point has been that hormone therapy is at an early and incomplete stage of understanding. We may well experience the effects that are known (which are as usual peddled by those who sell products), but we cannot know the trade-offs long term, even if we are fully informed about what is known now.

This is not an inconsequential consideration. Big C means more than a store's name.

This is not to suggest that folks should not make their choice and pay their money. Just that it is clear to those who can see it that it is a risky business, far more than hucksters and their sales-pitches suggest.

The estrogen that most main stream Drs prescribe is manufactured from female horse urine, this product is usually associated with cancer in woman. The use of bio-identical hormones has shown to be very safe for use. The safest way to apply this product is in a gel to be absorbed thru the skin hence avoiding the liver.

I have been on testosterone replacement using a gel for over 2 years and have experienced none of the side affects mentioned in another post. I do feel better and have more energy and a better sex drive than when I started the treatment. As explained to me by the druggist, it will take about 3 to 4 months to notice a effect and it will be more than likely a better sense of well being, donot plan on stopping a speeding train or catching a speeding bullet.

[haybilly]

hi,

we have a few testosterone products available now. you can see them http://www.naiharngy...&sort=relevance

Regards,

Naiharn Gym

Endorsed by Lee Aldhouse--perhaps?

Sorry--couldn't resist the reply.

[haybilly]

Well say, at least - are we not agreed: That medicines and drugs are powerful? That they sometimes have effects that show up later? (I am personally very bitter that Statins were said to have negative side effects in 1 in 10,000 - for a long time after it was clear that muscle problems of a severe nature happen more frequently.)

That large scale studies about the long term effects of drugs are rarely thorough, if for no other reason than that the evolution of new chemistry is increasing incredibly?

And that to medicate one's self without careful investigation may well do serious harm? (For example, some pills mentioned above, as opposed to injections, may well be more harmful to the liver - thus the need not only for initial tests but follow-ups?)

And if many of us can agree on these matters, then let us join together and celebrate that Orang is correct in everything he states, as usual, and likely to be right in suppositions and conjectures. That he is sometimes a tiny bit effusive on these pages is a blessing, for me at least, and even though I have to work very hard reading - not at all like going to a Stallone movie, but a lot less bloody.

I have to agree-although the Orang can be somewhat tiresome in his loquaciousness [ probably spell-check required]--he/ it is as interesting/informed as ever.

Very interesting Topic--not quite a first for TV but up there--apologies to Nai Harn Gym, again, for my uncalled for jibe.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV CM Friends,

Its probably not low Testosterone

It's probably not low testosterone

By Frederik Joelving NEW YORK | Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:16pm EDT NEW YORK (Reuters Health)

Excerpts:

But a new study adds to evidence that men's levels of the hormone can vary quite a bit without causing sexual problems like impotence and decreased libido.

"Testosterone replacement therapy has become a very common thing," said Dr. Michael Marberger, who heads the urology department at the University of Vienna Medical School in Austria, and led the new study.

"It is like putting more gas in the car to make it go faster," he told Reuters Health.

There is no doubt that very low testosterone levels affect the body and dampen sex drive. But where to set the threshold is still an open question, whose resolution is not made easier by natural variation in the male sex hormone. Its level dwindles with age, for instance, and fluctuates between countries, races and individuals -- even from one hour to the next.

In the new study, funded by GlaxoSmithKline, researchers used data from an earlier study of more than 8,000 middle-aged and older men at risk for developing prostate cancer. The men filled out questionnaires about their sexual function - whether they could keep an erection, whether they lacked sex drive -- and had blood drawn.

Various other measures were taken, too. One in five had testosterone levels below 300 nanograms per deciliter of blood, the threshold for what Solvay and others call "Low T." And about two in five men had at least "a small problem" in one or more areas related to their sex life.

Of the measures taken -- age, urinary symptoms, body mass index (BMI) and diabetes -- testosterone showed the weakest link to the men's sexual function

"We need a lot less testosterone for sexual function than people used to think," said Marberger, whose findings appear in the British Journal of Urology International.

"Obesity impacts sexual function much more." For instance, earlier research has shown that erectile dysfunction can disappear by itself over time, especially in men who aren't obese. Marberger, a paid consultant for GlaxoSmithKline, which makes diabetes and weight loss drugs, added that doctors are often too quick to give patients testosterone, when high blood pressure or obesity might be the real culprit.

Dr. Frederick Wu, a hormone expert at the University of Manchester, was critical of the some of the study's methods, but agreed with the overall message.

"Most people with erectile problems do not have hormone problems," he told Reuters Health, but often have blockages in the arteries in their penis.

He stressed, however, that a lot of research has found that once testosterone dips below a certain threshold, it does impact sexual function. But the exact level is controversial, and the picture gets extra murky because many of the symptoms that accompany very low testosterone -- fatigue, depression, loss of muscle strength and bone density -- are commonly found in seniors.

"Low testosterone and sexual problems quite often coexist," said Wu, "but the causal relationship isn't clear.

Correlation does not equal causation ! But correlations, and those "outliers on the bell curve" who show little correlation, compared to the mode and median, are often the source of valuable hypothesis to test. Imagine if we tested a thousand senior males for testosterone level and, then, focused on those who did not show decreased muscle loss, osteoporesis, lack of strength, etc., and whose energy levels were high. Analyzing the commonalities of this smaller group may well lead to interesting ideas for further studies in genetics, in bio-chemistry, in hormonal regulation, and environmental factors, as well as behavioral and psychological factors.

CMX has repeatedly reminded us here that long-term longitudinal studies are really necessary in this "arena."

best, ~o:37;

Edited November 1, 2010 by orang37

[orang37]

... snip ... It dealt with hormone replacement in menopausal women to avoid pains. ... snip ... Turns out that cancer rates went up in those taking it ON THE BEST advice doctors knew how to give.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

To the best of our current knowledge via reading publications including Scientific American, Nature, New Scientist, Discover, Science, and following the often excellent coverage of health care issues on sites like the NY Times ... not being a doctor, or a scientist ...

Similarly, while studies have yet to show a "solidly evidenced statistical causative" relationship between HRT (hormonal replacement therapy) in aging men and prostrate cancer, there IS now evidence that among men who have had signs of prostrate cancer, or been treated for prostrate cancer, that HRT or Testosterone use is clearly associated with higher recurrence/exacerbation of the (active, or treated and now stable) prostrate cancer. And doctors are warning men about this.

Appreciate all your well thought-out posts on this topic !

best, ~o:37;

Edited November 2, 2010 by orang37

[haybilly]

... snip ... It dealt with hormone replacement in menopausal women to avoid pains. ... snip ... Turns out that cancer rates went up in those taking it ON THE BEST advice doctors knew how to give.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

To the best of our current knowledge via reading publications including Scientific American, Nature, New Scientist, Discover, Science, and following the often excellent coverage of health care issues on sites like the NY Times ... not being a doctor, or a scientist ...

Similarly, while studies have yet to show a "solidly evidenced statistical causative" relationship between HRT (hormonal replacement therapy) in aging men and prostrate cancer, there IS now evidence that among men who have had signs of prostrate cancer, or been treated for prostrate cancer, that HRT or Testosterone use is clearly associated with higher recurrence/exacerbation of the (active, or treated and now stable) prostrate cancer. And doctors are warning men about this.

Appreciate all your well thought-out posts on this topic !

best, ~o:37;

Would you concur that even taking what are referred to as Testosterone Boosters could be taking an unnecessary risk with regard to boosting testosterone and thereby increasing potentiality for prostate cancer--or, is this a grey area that needs further research?

Open question to all, not limited to Mr.Orang.

[orang37]

Would you concur that even taking what are referred to as Testosterone Boosters could be taking an unnecessary risk with regard to boosting testosterone and thereby increasing potentiality for prostate cancer--or, is this a grey area that needs further research?

Open question to all, not limited to Mr.Orang.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Haybilly,

In response, we can only offer what we would do with our own human meat-package based on the current state of scientific information as we understand it.

And with the further disclaimer, that, as Khun CMX has pointed out, we still don't have the longitudinal studies for a long enough period of time, to know more, and with further disclaimers that the current revolution in genetic science, neuro-chemistry, etc., is raising questions about all previous assumptions.

We also don't have the longitudinal studies to justify chemical hormonal intervention with either extension of the duration of human life, or extension of its quality, imho. In some specific areas, like the use of estrogen in so-called "treatment" of menopausal-related symptoms in the human female: there's clear evidence that it is highly dangerous, and such treatments, are, right now, in effect, banned.

And what primate ecology has brought into public awareness so dramatically: that elevation in male status is accompanied by increased testosterone, and the reverse, coupled with the undoubted fact that social and cultural and psychological mediated factors affect testosterone levels in humans, males (and females, it seems).

And we'd consider the obviously known factors that influence hormonal levels (testosterone is naturally higher late at night, and highest in the morning, eighteen year old males are over-flowing with it, and it's all downhill from there, biologically).

1. we take to heart the old maxim every doctor knows: "primo non nocere:" "first do no harm:" with the interpretation that you don't mess with the complex symphony of mutually interdependent bio-clocks, hormonal regulation, and the natural stages of human aging, without a very good clinical reason to do so. There's a similar saying in south Indian Ayurvedic medicine (we were quoted this at the famous Ayurvedic clinic in Kottakal, Kerala, in 1976) which says that a "medicine" should be "gentle as a baby's breath."

2. given the current lack of strong evidence for use of hormonal enhancement (for males) as a directly causative factor in the incidence of prostrate cancer: if we thought we had a problem in this area:

a. we'd first get a PSA, and a digital exam, and get a medical all-clear also based on any historical information about prostrate problems in our immediate ancestors.

b. we'd get all the medical tests already mentioned in depth on this thread.

c. we'd seek hormonal replacement only as the result of the results of the "all clear," the tests, and, the presence of specifically identified medical problems associated with low testosterone : not every aging male with lower levels of testosterone has osteoporesis, great loss of muscular strength, dramatic muscle loss, etc. This human body, with 67 years of mileage on it, is a good example of that.

d. we'd consider what aspects of our "lifestyle" might also be associated with higher incidence of prostrate cancer (such as use of the culturally sanctioned ritual poison, alcohol in large quantities, or frequently, degree of stress ... and the quantitative degree of significant life change in a short time period ... in areas of money, relationships, employment, etc.).

e. taking into account all of the above, we'd make a decision: if the decision was to use some form of chemical intervention, we'd be sure and follow up with regular testing for any sign of prostrate enlargement.

But, even if the indication was a clinical problem, we'd consider carefully the good advice of certified doctors, like Andrew Weill, M.D., re modifying diet and physical activity. And there are now several very good studies suggesting that a program even "mild" regular careful weight-lifting can dramatically affect osteoporesis in seniors rapidly !

Note that in all the discussion above: we do not consider the use of chemical intervention for recreatonal use or "body-building." Nor are we talking about other specific conditions for males like erectile dysfunction. We do feel that if a human man or woman wants to look like Tarzan: that's a valid existential choice.

In our humble opinion: if a human male having a "harder" "hard-on" is a "pillar" of said male's self-concept and identity after age fifty: that is either a psychological, cultural, or even "spiritual" condition, and a patholgoical one. An indication, as Joni Mitchell sang so eloquently in "Both Sides Now: "I really don't know love at all."

Vitality, energy, mental alertness, insatiable curiousity, being able to nurture and be nurtured, to be able to experience the "miracle of the ordinary" hidden in every moment, and revealed to us as we "surrender to it," ability to enjoy intimacy in all its wondrous rainbow of flavors: ioho: male virility as measured in "stiffness:" not same same

best, ~o:37;

Edited November 4, 2010 by orang37

[Mapguy]

Quote:

In our humble opinion: if a human male having a "harder" "hard-on" is a "pillar" of said male's self-concept and identity after age fifty: that is either a psychological, cultural, or even "spiritual" condition, and a patholgoical one. An indication, as Joni Mitchell sang so eloquently in "Both Sides Now: "I really don't know love at all."

Vitality, energy, mental alertness, insatiable curiousity, being able to nurture and be nurtured, to be able to experience the "miracle of the ordinary" hidden in every moment, and revealed to us as we "surrender to it," ability to enjoy intimacy in all its wondrous rainbow of flavors: ioho: male virility as measured in "stiffness:" not same same

End quote

I'll drink to that.