Testosterone

[CMX]

orang,

"Digital exam?' "Digital exam?" Is that what I think - I mean, extras?

On point: I too have read of the red flags for weight lifting as age progresses. There are of course tons of exercises that are encouraged, including almost everything in water. Wattercountry!

Prostate concerns too. Actually, your setting out of issues strikes me as research-based (so far as we know) and sound. I'm no medical anything, but can recognize careful planning when it comes to my own body and future. In short, so far as we know, testosterone treatments of certain types can be employed for those of us to whom it is important and who are careful with testing, which should be ongoing. (I'd probably want to have my own physician in the west direct the business or direct me to the correct director, but that's not often an option.)

Your last words, however, are a little mystifying, whichever of you three was typing. You appear to be contending that there are things as important to men, even to being a man - maybe even more? - than orgasms. To see such a view (which I've probably misunderstood) on ThVi is as rare as finding dengue in the arctic.

[orang37]

... snip ... Your last words, however, are a little mystifying, whichever of you three was typing.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

The joy of pleasure is that someone who cares is within reach, no matter how many are involved ? But we're just an encapsulated twosome inside human meat, for whom foreplay is the ultimate, and menage a trois not of interest, and both of us, dammit ... well ... the human was just another maladjusted hetero male, and Orang males are, by nature, solo acts who do not hang around and play daddy, perhaps the "least sexual" of all primates ? So, as Kurt Vonnegut repeats, again and again, in "SlaughterHouse Five:"

"So it goes."

best, ~o:37;

p.s. Robert Service: ("Ballad of Sam Mcgee," quoting from memory, may not be exact)

"Strange things are done 'neath the Midnight Sun,

By the Men who moil for Gold,

The Arctic nights have their secret sights,

That would make your blood run cold"

[haybilly]

Many thanks to the human in K.Orang for his well though out reply--I will digest it gradually, as I am a creature with a small brain.

[PlanetX]

"Strange things are done 'neath the Midnight Sun,

By the Men who moil for Gold,

The Arctic nights have their secret sights,

That would make your blood run cold"

I havent heard that poem referenced for awhile

[uptoyoumyfriend]

i tried it and can tell you that it is obvious that it makes you feel stronger all around but as soon as you introduce t. into your body it stops making it's own and you either take it all the time or feel really flat.i find strenuous exercise a better way to get similar results although it is a pain in the ass. literally.

Edited November 5, 2010 by uptoyoumyfriend

[Mapguy]

As interesting and apparently personally pertinent to many people as this thread obviously is, what in the world has it got to do with Chiang Mai? Are local flavors of natural stimulation not adequate?

[escaped]

i tried it and can tell you that it is obvious that it makes you feel stronger all around but as soon as you introduce t. into your body it stops making it's own and you either take it all the time or feel really flat.i find strenuous exercise a better way to get similar results although it is a pain in the ass. literally.

Think you're doing the wrong exercise.

[cdnvic]

Removed one post that was promoting a class or seminar, which is only allowed for sponsors.

[fridgemagnet]

I think Orang is out of date regarding his prostate cancer & BPH information.

The prostate in males & the womb in females derive from the same tissues. It is pretty certain that Estrogen exacerbates cancers of the lady bits - well, the latest info., that I am aware of, is that estrogen does the same for cancers of the prostate.

Consider - young men overflow with testosterone. They rarely get prostate cancer, if at all.

Old men have high(er) estrogen - especially fat men. They have little testosterone, they get trouble.

Rather than me trying to sound like an endocrinologist - do a Google search for "prostate estrogen" or "prostate cancer estrogen".

Edited November 22, 2010 by fridgemagnet

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Ding DIng.. Fridgemagnet is up to date. Many of the modern cancers are estrogen sensitive. Uterine, Breast, Ovarian and Prostate are estrogen sensitive.

Treatments for these cancers often involve aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole

Aromatase inhibitors work by inhibiting the action of the enzyme aromatase, which converts androgens into estrogens by a process called aromatization.

Virtually everything in the modern world that humans come in contact with act like or are estrogen enhancing.

Petrochemicals

Air pollution

Unfermented soy

alcohol

prescription drugs

toxic metals

Generally the Liver converts and metabolizes estrogen but when the liver is busy and overloaded then Estrogen (estriadol which is serum estrogen) is allowed to build.

There are products like estrogen metabolizers such as

Diindolylmethane

That help prevent excess estrogen.

When estrogen becomes too elevated then it converts the repair(androgen) hormones into more estrogens. Estrogen promotes fat and water gain and fat cells produce more estrogen... That is a nasty catch 22 and why a lot of overweight people have so much trouble reversing the trend. If a person has weight issues or an increase in inter abdomenal fat (aka belly fat) then it's a good bet it's too much estrogen and not enough Androgen. Androgens include testosterone,DHEA, DHT and others.

Androgens

Lots of good reference materials out there like the book

Testosterone Syndrome

There are other key building blocks levels to consider.

Some people become low in the hormone DHEA and that is often a symptom of Celiac Disease which is an allergy to gluten products. DHEA = Dehydroepiandrosterone

Just throwing Testosterone at an aging body is not always the best solution but I have not been able to find many side effects other than sometimes promoting growth of an existing tumor.

If a person can afford it then Human Growth Hormone is the most beneficial with fewer potential issues. The body can easily convert HGH into DHEA, Andro, testosterone and whatever else it needs.

A person can greatly increase the natural production of HGH in their body by exercising intensely while following certain dietary guidelines.

Generally a intense workout followed by intake of complete protein within 2.5 hours without intake of insulin spiking sugars. A persons insulin resistance varies by individual and health status. An insulin spike shuts down natural HGH elevations.

Here are some video's that explain about HGH exercise strategies for layman introduction.

HGH exercise strategies

In most cases the use of androgenic hormones has been credited with reducing BPH which is benign prostate hyperplasty or aka enlarged prostate.

The are also credited with

Fat loss

alleviating depression

promoting superior hair, skin and nail growth and repair

bone and muscle mass preservation

increased energy

improved insulin resistance and decrease of cortisol

No need to live in the past of ignorance.... Go forth and learn more about hormone inbalance. Generally speaking hormones start losing their balance in a persons 30's and the effects start showing up later in life during the 40 50 and 60's.

[Mapguy]

This has been a remarkable and informative thread for those (often vitally) interested in the topic, but why is it on CM TV? Or should we also welcome a thread on PMS? Not certain how many are up to that!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

there have been similar hormone threads in the health section..

Hopefully someone volunteers some local CM sources at some point.

Doctors who specialize in hormones

Hormone products

Blood test panels and prices etc.

It still has the potential to be relevant to the CM forum.

Unfortunately Thailand seems to be really lagging in this field.. For now anyway

[THAIPHUKET]

Still no suggestion where at least one can have a test done in CM? Interpretation or subsequent treatment may be another issue for another place. Just to get started, where?? RAM??

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Still no suggestion where at least one can have a test done in CM? Interpretation or subsequent treatment may be another issue for another place. Just to get started, where?? RAM??

there was another good thread about labs in CM forum.

blood testing labs thread

[THAIPHUKET]

Helpful thanks, the thread is mainly from 2007, it seems prices have pretty much leveled out.

More important is there seems to be no material quality distinction. So RAM seems to ok.

One favor, can someone pls repeat what initial tests should be done? The thread, as fascinating as it is has become a little convoluted.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Helpful thanks, the thread is mainly from 2007, it seems prices have pretty much leveled out.

More important is there seems to be no material quality distinction. So RAM seems to ok.

One favor, can someone pls repeat what initial tests should be done? The thread, as fascinating as it is has become a little convoluted.

What thread is from 2007? the lab thread I posted? Pretty sure it's all 2010.

Anyway good question about what tests.

it really depends on a persons age and what they are trying to accomplish.

At a min I would consider getting (note my opinion and am not a M.D.)

Chemistry Panel (Metabolic panel with lipids)

Complete Blood Count (CBC)

Free Testosterone

Total Testosterone

DHEA - Sulfate

Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA)

Estradiol

Homocysteine

C-reactive protein (High sensitivity)

TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone)

The results of these might provoke some more tests to fine tune a dietary, supplement or drug regime to accomplish specific goals.

Some optional tests might include

DHT

Pregnenolone

Hemoglobin A1C

IGF-1

Cortisol

FSH/LH

T4 Free

Fasting Insulin

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

It really depends on what the basic tests show and what conditions or goals a person has.

A male weight loss panel might look like

Chemistry Panel (metabolic panel with lipids)

Complete Blood Count (CBC)

Free Testosterone

Total Testosterone

DHEA - Sulfate

Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA)

Estradiol

C-reactive protein (High sensitivity)

Insulin

TSH

Free T3

Free T4

You get the idea.... A athlete would have different concerns from a pre diabetic overweight person or anti aging goal.

Start basic and post back with your numbers(include the standard units being measured) and questions. Would make an interesting case study to illuminate options for other readers.

Edited December 17, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[orang37]

... snip ... Start basic and post back with your numbers(include the standard units being measured) and questions. Would make an interesting case study to illuminate options for other readers.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

Are you planning to do this yourself ?

With respect, we'd like to state our opinion that posting results of such highly technical blood/medical tests here will be:

1. meaningless, taken out of the wealth of information about the total life context of the individual that a truly competent GP or medically trained specialist would take into consideration.

2. lead to more speculative comments by people with zero medical training, passionate advocates of various one-size-fits-all ideologies, monomaniacal food theorists, even quasi-religiously validated panaceas. lead to more advertising for supplements, etc.

In our humble opinion, this would not be a healthy development for ThaiVisa: it's enough of a pseudo-medical rumor mill as it is.

What we find of value are posts where the person describes their life context (age, lifestyle, diet, exercise patterns, current problems, or positive health goals), within the constraints of how much personal detail they want to reveal, and talk about things they've tried, and what the results were for them. O

Or, where people share information about valuable resources in terms of local practitoners of alternatiave techniques, and what their experiences were like, and what the results were (and the costs).

In no way, by this post, do we mean to denigrate your own passionate interest in health, and your experimental attitude, which, we believe, we share ! We enjoy reading, your posts, open up and read and think about the links you cite, really think about what you say, and are sure we'd really enjoy sitting down with you over a cup of (your favorite beverage) whatever one day, and having a long talk !

best, ~o:37;

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Give me a break... Orang.... it's not rocket science.... and not designed to override medical supervision. But to aid a person on what to pursue or consider in a country with a very lagging medical hormone awareness.

If a person has more of an idea about what to ask about or consider then it's like understanding how an engine or transmission works before visiting a mechanic. The casual knowledge of a subject is not going to hurt a persons health.

Given a persons age then many of the hormones can be gauged in a relative sense.

Doctors use the same ranges and guides to consider therapies and further tests.

Insurance coverage guidelines spells out a lot of ranges.

For example IGF-1 under 84 is a covered disease condition.

Free Testosterone under 2%.. not good.

Don't you have some other boogie men to worry about?

[THAIPHUKET]

Don't have a problem to say this in public

age 65

79 kg

174cm

feeling healthy, no complaints, sleep well, no stress factors, don't smoke nor drink.

Weight loss not a pressing issue

blood pressure under control 80/120 ( medication)

cholesterol , should be ok, (medication)

Not very sportive, occasional cyclist.

A barrage of tests would be misleading, too many variables.

So what are the essentials?

Why at all, when if feel ok? Curiosity and there is always a chance of some betterment in which way ever.

Edited December 17, 2010 by THAIPHUKET

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Don't have a problem to say this in public

age 65

79 kg

174cm

feeling healthy, no complaints, sleep well, no stress factors, don't smoke nor drink.

Weight loss not a pressing issue

blood pressure under control 80/120 ( medication)

cholesterol , should be ok, (medication)

Not very sportive, occasional cyclist.

A barrage of tests would be misleading, too many variables.

So what are the essentials?

Why at all, when if feel ok? Curiosity and there is always a chance of some betterment in which way ever.

no reason really.

Under that scenario then it might be possible to get off your cholesterol medication, preserve muscle mass, maintain cognitive function and heart health.

Really though if your not experiencing any complaints then why bother?

If you were to check some of your levels like

Testosterone and free testosterone

"The normal range of testosterone is reported as 350- 1200ng/dl. Studies in the 1940's showed the average testosterone level to be at 700 ng/dl, 300 ng/dl higher than for men today. In the past, a drop in testosterone levels to 250 ng/dl was rarely reported before men were 80 years of age. Yet today, it is not an uncommon value for middle aged men"

Because many disease conditions like diabetes, prostate issues, cholesterol, loss of muscle mass and heart health and many others are associated with hormone levels like testosterone then future health could be protected.

The whole concept of hormone monitoring, maintenance and restoration is a lot about preservation. Like the old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Once something goes wrong then for a lot of issues can be more difficult, costly or even impossible to address.

For some people they consider their health their most important possession. If a person enjoys living then why not prolong a quality experience?

If your not worried about the future then perhaps don't bother... There are lots of people who just don't have health issues.

I am approaching 50 and most people think I am much younger and I perform well but if I am honest with myself I do notice the wear and tear at times and would like to reverse some things... I guess it comes down to personal preference and priorities.

The basics I listed above of

Chemistry Panel (Metabolic panel with lipids)

Complete Blood Count (CBC)

Free Testosterone

Total Testosterone

DHEA - Sulfate

Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA)

Estradiol

Homocysteine

C-reactive protein (High sensitivity)

TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone)

are a fairly low cost tests to give a person a health report card and raise a red flag before a more serious and costly health issue could arise.

Once a person has those numbers then many inexpensive supplements, dietary and lifestyle tweaks can be implemented to bring levels to more ideal levels.

In the US I pay about $270 for that test thru US Labcorp. I think it might be a bit cheaper in Thailand.

Hope that helps those interested in this type of thing.

PS.. added this under edit. A lot of people are already getting these tests or most of them but their doctor just glances at them and if they aren't already in the red zone then just say no problem. If your doctor says your Testosterone is normal then using what standard? He/She might consider normal range in the population to be 300 etc.... Doctors are just humans. Educated in the past. Busy with family etc. They put their pants on one leg at a time just like you and I.... They are not supercomputers programmed for your success. These modern day restoration and maintenance protocols are more about optimization and prevention... Something the time and money crunched medical industry can't really focus on....

Edited December 17, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

CSN: "Give me a break... Orang.... it's not rocket science.... and not designed to override medical supervision. But to aid a person on what to pursue or consider in a country with a very lagging medical hormone awareness."

Very, sorry, Khun CSN, but we're not giving "breaks" on what we consider an invitation to the flourishing of nonsense. By saying: "not rocket science:" you are attempting to "smokescreen" the fact that "health" is the "music" played by a veritable symphony orchestra of co-ordinated and vastly inter-connected systems, all varying with age. sex. genetic endowment, environmental history, lifestyle, etc. ... in one of the most complex biological species ever evolved:

Testosterone imbalance in the male has, evidently, become for you, and the other zealots, "the only melody being played:" in our opinion the background music for your version of the mythic "quest for the fountain of youth." Your statement also contains a hypothesis that Thailand (for farangs with money, we assume) offers "lagging hormone awareness:" using the word "awareness here is "off-key:" you mean medical competency, we believe. You can have access to quite competent endrocrinologists at Maharaj/Sriphat here. We assume if you went some place like Chula in Bangkok you could even find doctors at a fairly high level of what in the US is called "sports medicine."

CSN: "If a person has more of an idea about what to ask about or consider then it's like understanding how an engine or transmission works before visiting a mechanic.

The casual knowledge of a subject is not going to hurt a persons health."

The human body, health, and disease, are not, ioho, metaphorically equivalent to knowledge of how mechanical systems work when the scope of your focus is as broad as "vitality and virility" for the aging male. For a broken bone, or a typical bout of a cold, sure, knowledge about the carburetor can't hurt you.

CSN: "Given a persons age then many of the hormones can be gauged in a relative sense."

Relative to what ? To the uninformed guesses of non-medically trained people ? Here you are making the assumption that there is a "meaningful" average, and we invite you to read and consider carefully the late Stephen J. Gould's seminal essay "The Median is Not the Message," MedianNotMessage to try and reach awareness that medical averages are statistical constructs that may be meaningless in the case of any one individual.

An example: by genetics, the human males that my current meat-package descends from have very light beard and facial hair, but full head hair, and we do not lose our head hair: our human father had a full beautiful head of white hair when he died at age 85.

Normal testosterone levels" are spread over a broad range, and evaluation of any individual has to consider their genetic heritage, and lifetime averages to be meaningful.

CSN: "Doctors use the same ranges and guides to consider therapies and further tests."

Yes, because that's all they've got unless they are specialists.

"Insurance coverage guidelines spells out a lot of ranges."

And insurance coverage is also, at least in the US, so fatally flawed that it's hardly worth mentioning.

CSN: "For example IGF-1 under 84 is a covered disease condition."

Now you are changing the movie: we have just switched from talking about HRT and Testosterone for health and life-extension (and the real hidden agenda of this whole thread, ioho, is about sexual virility): to talking about specific disease syndromes.

CSN: "Free Testosterone under 2%.. not good."

Perhaps: it depends on the individual and the complex factors we mention above. It depends on whether the individual is experiencing pathological symptoms like severe lean muscle loss, osteoporesis, an anomalous lethargy which seems independent of typical causes of depression, and what might be expected given their life circumstances, etc.

CSN: "Don't you have some other boogie men to worry about?"

That is called an "ad hominem" response, which we will not dignify with a reply

This whole thread has been permeated by the most profound ignorance of what testosterone is: does anyone here realize that testosterone is also an important regulatory hormone in the human female, and that human females vary greatly in testosterone level, and there is some research suggesting a correlation between high female testosterone levels and "social dominance" ?

We pray that somebody on this thread will give us "a break," and go and read "Y: The Descent of Men," by Steve Jones (in stock at Gecko and Backstreet), and start speaking with some awareness of what the male Y chromosome is, what testosterone is, and the fascinating interplay between social roles, and dominance, in primate groups and testosterone levels, etc.

"HRT" for specific disease and pathological conditions is: "medicine." Belief in self-modification through hormones for males, who are otherwise healthy, by using drugs is: "religion," or, as in the "cult of bodybuilding," a reflection of the fact that we live with a 50,000 year old set of emotional equipment that is 50,000 years behind our radically changed environment where saber-toothed tigers are not on the prowl (anthropologists call this: "biological lag"), but computer viruses are.

An environment in which life expectancy (particularly for those in the "richer," developed nations) has accellerated in less than 150 years in an unparalleled way resulting in a vast increase in the percentage of elderly in the population and bringing to the fore, in medicine such problems as cancer, osteoporesis, Alzheimer's, etc.

Now we are going to take the meat package out on the porch, and do our high-intensity interval training workout with 10kg. dumbbells

best, ~o:37;

Edited December 17, 2010 by orang37

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Orang

I just don't have any interest in arguing with you.

I don't have any benefit of convincing you of anything.

I don't get a commission if you get a blood test or buy some supplements.

Please Please Please don't ever consider hormone therapy. Go drink your discount feminizing soy milk with my blessing. Hormone therapy is not for you in any way shape or form.

Why do you want to convince others that it's hogwash or quackery. What is in it for you? That is a rhetorical question. I don't care REALLY !!!!!!!

Go argue with someone in another thread.

[orang37]

Orang

I just don't have any interest in arguing with you.

I don't have any benefit of convincing you of anything.

I don't get a commission if you get a blood test or buy some supplements.

Please Please Please don't ever consider hormone therapy. Go drink your discount feminizing soy milk with my blessing. Hormone therapy is not for you in any way shape or form.

Why do you want to convince others that it's hogwash or quackery. What is in it for you? That is a rhetorical question. I don't care REALLY !!!!!!!

Go argue with someone in another thread.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

Gosh, we are disappointed: we thought we were having a "debate" with you, not an "argument." A debate in which, as we noted: we found your posts of interest, and seriously considered: which we experienced as a benefit !

We have no agenda to convince anyone that HRT, for disease conditions, or possibly self-modification for life-extension, or increased health in aging years, is, to use your words: "hogwash," or "quackery."

We do regard someone self-experimenting not under medical supervision with such powerful modifiers of the body's interlinked multiple-feedback-loop hormonal regulatory system as a very serious, and risky, business. But, we don't question your right to do so.

We hope, when you've recovered from what we hope is only temporary intellectual exhausion, or replaced a few of the fuses "blown" by our comments, you'll return and share more of what your experience and thinking is on these topics.

If you could pause in your target-practice for "shooting the messenger," and go read Steve Jones' book, "Y: The Descent of Men:" we think that not only would you enjoy it, you'd find it compelling: that book in no way takes any "position" on HRT for disease or life-extension, etc.

best, ~o:37;

"

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Orang

Go read what the Mayo Clinic has to say... Hormone monitoring and management has merit and many different avenues of action. Diet, lifestyle, supplementation and finally pro hormones or actual drugs if necessary. No one is advocating any program without quality testing and professional guidance.

You do want to seem to debate or argue about the concept or express your aversion to testosterone. Everyone needs testosterone. Men, women, children, and mammals. It's just a question of how much and what qualities in a world that is assaulting with environmental estrogens. Estrogen dominance is a serious condition on the rise with both sexes.

I only want to discuss the techniques. No interest in debating the concept... Nothing in it for me.. It's already well accepted. If you can't work with that then "debate" with someone else.... I have had many a girl friend who wants to argue and they don't even know why.. I don't need the distraction.

Go check out quackwatch.com. They hate everything from acupuncture to yoga and Not a single hit or warning for "Testosterone therapy"

Edited December 19, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[midgeley20]

Anyone know about or have used the herb Tongkat Ali? It is said to improve testosterone levels

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Anyone know about or have used the herb Tongkat Ali? It is said to improve testosterone levels

Little bit. It's popular and legal in Malaysia. Grows in Thailand. Has mixed results. I think it depends on your underlying blood chemistry. It is noted as being helpful in preventing a persons testosterone from being converted into estrogen or DHT. DHT is the bad testosterone metabolite thought to be implicated in male pattern baldness and prostate disease. By preventing conversion it is thought to help free testosterone levels.

That's why just taking a bio identical testosterone replacement is not indicated or particularly helpful for just low free testosterone.

The Tonkat Ali aka Long Jack seems to work for some people. Fairly cheap to try out.

Here is the wiki page

Tonkat Ali

It's available around town at places like the Chinese Pharmacy.. There is a issue with fake Tonkat Ali unfortunately.

Does help to know some underlying test results like Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, SHBG, DHEA, Pregnenolone and DHT.

Knowing the underlying situation is helpful for efficiency.

As a person ages it's hard to have excessive total testosterone without taking Bio Identical Testosterone. Most supplements are just going to unlock something already there.

I would want to know about the PSA (prostate Specific antigen) score.. A score of 4 or over would be "suspect" and requires a digital exam and future testing to track the PSA score. Also there is an age range for the PSA.. As a person ages it can get a bit higher before being suspect...

Play it safe and know the PSA.... If its low like under 1.5 at age 50 then little danger of trying the herbs.

Before herbs I would consider a few simpler measures.

Decrease simple carbohydrates

Decrease or eliminate eating carbs at night

Exercise hard

Decrease or eliminate alcohol

Decrease or eliminate unfermented soy like tofu or soy milk. Even a few tablespoons of soy milk will cause estrogen levels to soar for many hours. Soy is basically food/medicine for menopausal women.

Isolated soy Isoflavones are very beneficial for many issues. Also fermented soy like tempeh, miso and natto are fine also

Edited December 19, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

correction above... Isolated soy protein is not estrogen spiking...

Isoflavones in soy and supplements definitely increase estrogen levels.

Isoflavones wiki

[orang37]

... snip ... You do want to seem to debate or argue about the concept or express your aversion to testosterone.

Having an active fantasy life is good, and emotionally healthy, but the idea that we have an "aversion" to testosterone is just nonsense; it's like saying we have an aversion to blood, or dopamine, or lymph fluid, or having two arms, and two legs.

CSN wrote: "Everyone needs testosterone. Men, women, children, and mammals. It's just a question of how much and what qualities in a world that is assaulting with environmental estrogens. Estrogen dominance is a serious condition on the rise with both sexes.'

A series of generalities anchored in no scientific research: a simple restatement of the fact that testosterone is a key hormonal regulator, as are many other substances. Please cite a reputable source for "estrogen dominance;" this sounds like some kind of conspiracy theory. The role of testosterone during the human life-cycle is different at different stages of life (and different for men, than for women): without basing your ideas on what the role of testosterone actually is over the span of life, you have no logical grounds for what you are expounding.

CSN wrote: "I only want to discuss the techniques. No interest in debating the concept... Nothing in it for me.. It's already well accepted. If you can't work with that then "debate" with someone else.... I have had many a girl friend who wants to argue and they don't even know why.. I don't need the distraction."

We hope you get some help with reaching a level of emotional stability where you can intellectually debate a scientific topic without being disturbed by memories of your previous problems with women !

CSN wrote: "Go check out quackwatch.com. They hate everything from acupuncture to yoga and Not a single hit or warning for "Testosterone therapy""

Ad hominem. Static.

best, ~o:37;

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

... snip ... You do want to seem to debate or argue about the concept or express your aversion to testosterone.

Having an active fantasy life is good, and emotionally healthy, but the idea that we have an "aversion" to testosterone is just nonsense; it's like saying we have an aversion to blood, or dopamine, or lymph fluid, or having two arms, and two legs.

CSN wrote: "Everyone needs testosterone. Men, women, children, and mammals. It's just a question of how much and what qualities in a world that is assaulting with environmental estrogens. Estrogen dominance is a serious condition on the rise with both sexes.'

A series of generalities anchored in no scientific research: a simple restatement of the fact that testosterone is a key hormonal regulator, as are many other substances. Please cite a reputable source for "estrogen dominance;" this sounds like some kind of conspiracy theory. The role of testosterone during the human life-cycle is different at different stages of life (and different for men, than for women): without basing your ideas on what the role of testosterone actually is over the span of life, you have no logical grounds for what you are expounding.

CSN wrote: "I only want to discuss the techniques. No interest in debating the concept... Nothing in it for me.. It's already well accepted. If you can't work with that then "debate" with someone else.... I have had many a girl friend who wants to argue and they don't even know why.. I don't need the distraction."

We hope you get some help with reaching a level of emotional stability where you can intellectually debate a scientific topic without being disturbed by memories of your previous problems with women !

CSN wrote: "Go check out quackwatch.com. They hate everything from acupuncture to yoga and Not a single hit or warning for "Testosterone therapy""

Ad hominem. Static.

best, ~o:37;

I have no idea what your "debating" about now.

If you want to get into the specifics of the science of hormone monitoring, evaluation, management or restoration then try discussing

-Hormone tests and what each means. Relationships of one parameter to others. Relative importance of each. Prioritization schedules.

-Hormone synthesis pathways and their chemical precursors and requirements

-Evaluation of each tests. Normal ranges. age adjustments, caveats for genetics and lifestyle, diet etc.

-Strategies for maintaining healthy levels of selected blood test parameters

-Specific solutions for affecting each value, prioritization of various solutions using different criteria like side effects, cost etc.

-Protocols or graduated decision process to consider in achieving hormone management objectives

or just suggest and discuss a specific and finite aspect of hormone management that you feel would be helpful to others.

Try to adopt a constructive approach and move toward a productive goal or purpose in the discussion of hormone regulation

Perhaps write a mission statement and management framework and share it with us

[orang37]

... snip ... Decrease or eliminate unfermented soy like tofu or soy milk. Even a few tablespoons of soy milk will cause estrogen levels to soar for many hours. Soy is basically food/medicine for menopausal women. Isolated soy Isoflavones are very beneficial for many issues. Also fermented soy like tempeh, miso and natto are fine also

A lot of your comments on this post seem very reasonable, and well thought out, particularly your advocating PSA checks, etc.

But, we believe you have a priori assumed that all aging males SHOULD be using these supplements. In other words we believe you've made an emotional decision first based on your "guts," and all the intellectual content has come later, selectively appraised for whether it fits the decision already made by your "guts."

Not once on this thread have you given a specific reason you are using these supplements: are you suffering from osteoporesis, unusual lethargy, sexual problems: we doubt there's any specific negative phsyical reason you are involved with these substances other than as an emotionally based lifestyle choice.

While we personally feel you have every right to do with your body what you want, your advocacy of use of these substances for many, or all, other aging males is, we think, a case of recruitment/advocacy/proselytizing based on dubious theories, and mis-information.

The idea a small amount of soy milk will cause estrogen levels to rise for hours: could you cite a scientific source on that ? And could you say what you think ... if that's true ... would be the negative outcome, or consequence, of such a hypothetical rise ? Red-hot saunas can lower testosterone levels for many hours: are you as concerned about that ?

CSN wrote: "Soy is basically food/medicine for menopausal women."

And computers are for geeks, and, "real men don't eat quiche:" we are now wondering if you have an "aversion" to soy Have you had a personal negative experience with soy ? Are you a victim of Post-Soy Traumatic Stress Disorder, perhaps an innocent victim of an experiment carried out on you without your knowledge while you were in the Army ? Have you ever personally known a single male who has been (in your words) "effeminized" by soy.

Males in our farang caucasian human heritage, like us, have, from the paternal genes evidently, naturally big chests, and large pectoral muscles: as we age the pectoral muscles tend to droop a bit, even with hard exercise (lots of bench presses): is that an example of the "effeminization," the idea of which seems to haunt you ?

Or, if a male wanted to spend many hours a day studying, reading books, pursuing intellectual, or creative past-times, while exercise for staying fit was "second-fiddle:" would that be "effeminization" ?

What, we wonder, is your idea of what a "real male" should be ?

best, ~o:37;

Edited December 20, 2010 by orang37