Russia Dissatisfied Over Thai Court's Dismissal Of Second Charge

[Bagwan]

I don't know what to make of this. Russia doesn't like the Court's decision. Tough titty. Isn't criticising the Court or it's officials a criminal offence? There are countless Russian court decisions handed down over the past hundred years or so that the rest of the world didn't exactly enthuse over.

I've never heard of anybody protesting about being found not guilty or prosecutors not proceeding a case before. Does Russia want this monster tried, found guilty and sent down? Does this make sense? If that scenario came about the US would surely withdraw their application for extradition and issue another one a day or two before his release from chokey. Thus the pantomime starts over. 

The sooner Abhisit learns that to make a cake you have to break a few eggs then the better. What is the point of having laws and international agreements if a Prime Minister can vary or ignore them on a whim or for convenience?  Invariably trying to please everybody ends up with pleasing nobody.

[chantorn]

Who cares about the Russian? Thailand only cares about the American.

[monkfish]

So looks like Bout may be going to a Black hotel.

Which county is more important for the Thailand these days? USA or Russia? we will see!

[pedro01]

Whilst it is true that Hollywood is just fiction, Bout did actually play an advisory role in the making of that movie.

The guy is a well known arms dealer. He's known for being a-political, he will sell arms to anyone and he has no agenda other than making money. Some arms dealers have a 'higher purpose' and so are choosy about who they sell to.

Are some people here under the impression that Bout might just be a regular tourist in the wrong place at the wrong time ?

Pedro

To be quite honest that statement is utter bolleux. Arms dealers are arms dealers, they are ALL in it to make large amounts of cash. There is no 'higher purpose', it doesn't exist, give an example. So the US are pissed off with Bout for selling arms to kill American soldiers. What about when the US armed the Mujahadin (now read Taliban/Al Quaida) up to the teeth with weapons to kill Russian soldiers? The same weapons now being used to kill US troops in Afghanistan. All is fair in love and war! A pox on all arms dealers, be they sole trader or Government!

The real "Merchant of Death", the guy who actually has that nickname is not Bout, it's Sarkis Soghanalian. His was fervently anti-communust and so frequently did the work with the CIA moving arms into conflicts on behalf of the US. In terms of specific places he moved weapons on behalf of the US - he helped arm Saddams Iraq (when Saddam was considered a necessary evil), General Anastasio Somoza in Nicaragua and Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire. Almost all of Sarkis arms deals were sanctioned by the US.

To say there are no arms dealers with political leanings is rather naive.

Bout on the other hand has sold weapons to both sides in most of Africa's conflicts.

Neither are what you would call nice guys but they definitely have a different MO.

[pedro01]

If these people were not supplied arms, there would not have been as many deaths. Period. This isn't about the FARC, it's about Bout and his desire to make money off anybody who wants to buy weapons for ANY reason. Not a noble man, IMHO.

Feel free to defend him, but I am sure you are in the minority. I hate to use this analogy, but if your mother was being held right now by the FARC, after being kidnapped and held for ransom, would you support them? Please don't tell me you wouldn't care...

It is nothing to do with Bout in isolation. It is why I said in my last post, 'a pox on all arms dealers, be they sole trader or Government'.

If Bout would not have sold weapons to FARC, then somebody else would have done. Where does the 'blood on the hands actually lie'? The middle man? or the weapons manufacturers or the end user?.

Sarkis shipped 10,000 AK-47s and they ended up on the hands of the FARC, although Sarkis claimed they were headed for Peru.

Considering this, is it not odd that Sarkis is alive, free and living in the US of A ?

Bout is not going to the US because of this FARC thing - that is merely a pre-text, otherwise Sarkis wouldn't be sitting so comfortably right now.

Edited October 7, 2010 by pedro01

[dekbahnnok]

Saudi interfering in Thailand's internal affairs.

Russia interfering in Thailand's internal affair.

Thailand refuses to interfere in Burma's internal affairs when they should get involved and stop the appalling human rights abuses in that country.

All a bit upside down to me.

Money talks...if Russia can pay...Bout walks....could he be the farung busting brothels with the BIB in Pattaya?

[Jingthing]

Saudi interfering in Thailand's internal affairs.

Russia interfering in Thailand's internal affair.

Thailand refuses to interfere in Burma's internal affairs when they should get involved and stop the appalling human rights abuses in that country.

All a bit upside down to me.

Money talks...if Russia can pay...Bout walks....could he be the farung busting brothels with the BIB in Pattaya?

I am sure Russia is playing hardball, but it really isn't as simple as just paying money.

[dekbahnnok]

If these people were not supplied arms, there would not have been as many deaths. Period. This isn't about the FARC, it's about Bout and his desire to make money off anybody who wants to buy weapons for ANY reason. Not a noble man, IMHO.

Feel free to defend him, but I am sure you are in the minority. I hate to use this analogy, but if your mother was being held right now by the FARC, after being kidnapped and held for ransom, would you support them? Please don't tell me you wouldn't care...

It is nothing to do with Bout in isolation. It is why I said in my last post, 'a pox on all arms dealers, be they sole trader or Government'.

If Bout would not have sold weapons to FARC, then somebody else would have done. Where does the 'blood on the hands actually lie'? The middle man? or the weapons manufacturers or the end user?.

Sarkis shipped 10,000 AK-47s and they ended up on the hands of the FARC, although Sarkis claimed they were headed for Peru.

Considering this, is it not odd that Sarkis is alive, free and living in the US of A ?

Bout is not going to the US because of this FARC thing - that is merely a pre-text, otherwise Sarkis wouldn't be sitting so comfortably right now.

Americans invented: informing on associates in business, crime and politics. After being arrested and read your rights you are offered the option to inform on your associate, set up you associates, or to participate in a "sting operation". Please remember when "snitching" you have to snitch up or offer up a bigger fish or catch. Mr Bout is a big fish so Sarkis is enjoying special treatment by American Justice. One day Saddam was an American ally and the next an enemy and shortly thereafter hung.

[dekbahnnok]

If he doesn't negotiate a plea deal, the man will be going to TRIAL in the US. Which means he is innocent until proven guilty under US law. And so off he goes.

Next ...

Perhaps in a galaxy long ago & far away that had a functioning constitution

Now with the Patriot<sic> act they can hold him where ever & for as long as they like.

Such is the mask of anti terrorism laws

If so then he could just become another Guantánamo Bay detainee that never see's a courtroom. So much for innocent until proven guilty these days.

There is no legit reason for this man to be sent to the USA

If so then when will the US personnel responsible for supplying arms to various factions be sent to the country in which those arms were used conspiring to kill nationals of those countries?

As stated in the original article....

Under the first ruling, Bout should be sent to the United States within 90 days to face trial for terrorism charges.

Bout was arrested in Bangkok in March 2008 during a US-led operation to catch him for his role in fuelling armed conflicts in different parts of the world and conspiring to kill American nationals.

They couldn't catch him so they used another criminal to set him up. He was lucky he wasn't kidnapped and waterboarded in Polland.

[SergeiY]

I doubt that he played an advisory role in the making of that movie.

Right thing is that he is a business man, trade and deals with all kind of things and also provide cargo service to different organisations and nations and his companies operate worldwide.

Right thing is also that there is no evidence that he ever dealt with some FARC members. The 'talks' in Bangkok were just some Micky mouse set up up US drug police. Nothing more. Based on that set up is the extradition request, that is the charge brought to the court.

All his alleged other deals and former involvement in some dubious action should have nothing to do with it in how the court and the judges handle this case.

This set up with an undercover law enforcement agent who offers you to commit some crime is some questionable practice. And he hasn't even done it yet. They call it just conspiring against the USA.

It has nothing to do that I or other are under a (false) impression that Bout is just a "tourist in the wrong place at the wrong time". Its quite understandable that Russia protects his citizen under this circumstances. I think it is understandable that here a couple of poster express the opinion that its wrong to send him to the USA. The USA acts just another time as the world police but that isnt accepted everywhere else in the world.

Because some people got so moralistic and calling Bout the merchant of Death, blaming him for all evil things in the world and want to add the following:

Bout isnt a supporter of the FARC nor an ally of them.

Some may call the FARC a terrorist organisation. 'Terrorists' don't come out of the blue and just do their thing because they are just the pure evil. Terrorists are symptoms that something have gone wrong in a society, people turned unhappy, unhappy people turned to become terrorists.

So Some people keep repeating to mention the all current crimes of the FARC. But lets have a look at the history and a question that should be asked is: Why Colombia got the FARC? Wikipedia is the source of cjoice to nail Bout and The FARC so lets look what Wikipedia hay to say about the beginning of the FARC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_armed_conflict_(1964-present)

In the early 1960s Colombian Army units loyal to the National Front began, at the behest of the United States, to attack peasant communities throughout Colombia that they considered to be enclaves for bandits and Communists. It was the 1964 attack on the community of Marquetalia that motivated the later creation of FARC[10].

...

The Colombian government organized several short-lived counter-guerrilla campaigns in the late 50s and early 60s. These efforts were aided by the U.S. government and the CIA, which employed hunter-killer teams and involved U.S. personnel from the previous Philippine campaign against the Huks, and which would later participate in the subsequent Phoenix Program in Vietnam.[12][13]

Furthermore all this allegation against Bout, the accusation he dealt with that dictator. He sold weapons to these terrorists there and there and so on ... He isn't the only one in this world doing this. Before throwing stones at him, we should look who else.

And the point is as you said "He's known for being a-political" Bout will sell to anyone and he has no agenda just business. But others dealers have a 'higher purpose' and so are choosy about who they sell to. A short study of history shows that he idea of the doing it for the greater good creates often problems that are much worse. And the 'greater good' is just a propaganda lie anyway. So in moral terms, these other dealers are the real perverts.

Bout is a very smart man. Here is why they say it was so hard to arrest him for anything:

========================================================

Constantly moving location, owning numerous companies and frequently re-registering aircraft[2][24] made it hard for authorities to make a case against Bout. He has never been charged for the alleged African arms deals to which he owes his notoriety.

========================================================

Regarding FARC, from your same source:

========================================================

FARC-EP, the ELN, and right-wing paramilitaries all train teens as soldiers and informants. Human Rights Watch estimates that the FARC-EP has the majority of child combatants in Colombia, estimating that approximately one quarter of the guerrillas are under 18 years of age.

=======================================================

At least 50,000, and possibly as many as 200,000, people have died in the conflict since 1964, including some 40 000 since 1990 alone.

======================================================

If these people were not supplied arms, there would not have been as many deaths. Period. This isn't about the FARC, it's about Bout and his desire to make money off anybody who wants to buy weapons for ANY reason. Not a noble man, IMHO.

Feel free to defend him, but I am sure you are in the minority. I hate to use this analogy, but if your mother was being held right now by the FARC, after being kidnapped and held for ransom, would you support them? Please don't tell me you wouldn't care...

Again: For these 200,000 people that died in this conflict the FARC isn't the solely responsible group. The FARC have their right wing enemies, paramilitary groups and death squads. These people are also no angels and did and do their atrocities too. And they have also support by some people from foreign Nations some are maybe actually the brainchild of a special tactic in foreign policy of a particular foreign state. Guess who? You can read all about it on your favourite source wikipedia (and it comes with footnotes).

So when you getting moral about these conflicts. Please don't be so selective and blind on the other side.

And such analogy like yours don't work well, specially not when used to support some demands by the USA.

[SergeiY]

Imagine how much less squaking there would be about this extradition if it was Costa Rica or Switzerland going after him rather than the USA.

Guess why?

In how many wars, dirty secret wars, armed conflicts, bloody coups and so on the swiss army or the swiss secret service were actively involved?

And if Switzerland would be such a (dirty) military global player by state doctrine, would there be some patriotic squeakers who defend all and everything of their Nation and insist that everyone worldwide have to obey to the hubristic demands of their state powers.

[RKASA]

"Russia dissatisfied over court's dismissal of second charge"

_{Well I too would be upset if they dropped charges on me, and sure would want more charges plus the old charges back. It is just not fair that others get charged and never have them dropped like this, poor Bout.}

_{A would say when your lawyer whats you charged for something - your like beyond the bottom of the barrel. Its more like whale dooo dooo time.}

[Tigs]

I think Bout would rather take his chances here and do a short bit of time, rather than be shipped off to the USA where , if he doesn't have the information the US are looking for, he will disappear in to a US Jail for the rest of his natural life, with zero chance of parole. Any tactic at all by his lawyer to delay proceedings beyond the 90 day limit set by the US is a good start.

[monkfish]

If he doesn't negotiate a plea deal, the man will be going to TRIAL in the US. Which means he is innocent until proven guilty under US law. And so off he goes.

Next ...

Perhaps in a galaxy long ago & far away that had a functioning constitution

Now with the Patriot<sic> act they can hold him where ever & for as long as they like.

Such is the mask of anti terrorism laws

If so then he could just become another Guantánamo Bay detainee that never see's a courtroom. So much for innocent until proven guilty these days.

There is no legit reason for this man to be sent to the USA

If so then when will the US personnel responsible for supplying arms to various factions be sent to the country in which those arms were used conspiring to kill nationals of those countries?

As stated in the original article....

Under the first ruling, Bout should be sent to the United States within 90 days to face trial for terrorism charges.

Bout was arrested in Bangkok in March 2008 during a US-led operation to catch him for his role in fuelling armed conflicts in different parts of the world and conspiring to kill American nationals.

They couldn't catch him so they used another criminal to set him up. He was lucky he wasn't kidnapped and waterboarded in Polland.

What is waterboarding??? and why Polland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

[SergeiY]

Russian Press Rap Bout's Extradition

....

US news network, Fox News, claimed that Moscow will not simply surrender Bout to the US and Russia may cooperate with Al Qaeda to retaliate against Washington.

-- Tan Network 2010-10-07

WHAT???

Were such claims really made on US news network, Fox News (would explain some of the irrational pro-extradition comments here) or got that TAN news just somehow lost in translation?

[flying]

He is NOT going to Guantánamo Bay. I personally guarantee that. What a red herring.

Next ...

Yes next....I am sure he will be very happy to hear of the personal guarantee of a ex-patriot living in Thailand.

Yet the facts remain....The US wants him extradited on TERRORISM charges

Under the first ruling, Bout should be sent to the United States within 90 days to face trial for terrorism charges.

As such he will be entitled to losing all rights same as any individual they throw under this *TERROR* bus they call the patriot act. Also as such they claim the right to send him there if they choose. They also can hold him forever without trial etc etc etc....Get a copy of the rules before you make guarantees.

Russian Press Rap Bout's Extradition

....

US news network, Fox News, claimed that Moscow will not simply surrender Bout to the US and Russia may cooperate with Al Qaeda to retaliate against Washington.

WHAT???

Were such claims really made on US news network, Fox News (would explain some of the irrational pro-extradition comments here) or got that TAN news just somehow lost in translation?

Sadly this is the new reality....Anything that moves or does not agree with the storm troopers gets labeled as pro terrorism/ Pro Al Qaeda <sic>

Pretty funny when we look back at who supplied arms to indirectly engage with Russia in Afghanistan...Yet that was ok?

[Jingthing]

Guatmo is closing. New people don't go there. He ain't going there. 100 percent guarantee. Next ...

[Jimi007]

Sadly this is the new reality....Anything that moves or does not agree with the storm troopers gets labeled as pro terrorism/ Pro Al Qaeda <sic>

Pretty funny when we look back at who supplied arms to indirectly engage with Russia in Afghanistan...Yet that was ok?

Wait a minute. Who are you calling storm troopers? Are you lost in Star Wars?

[mojo80]

Guatmo is closing. New people don't go there. He ain't going there. 100 percent guarantee. Next ...

another ridiculous post, nothing in life is guaranteed! PFFFFF

[SergeiY]

Guatmo is closing. New people don't go there. He ain't going there. 100 percent guarantee. Next ...

I dont believe they would bring Bout to Guantanamo.

But fact is that the new guy promised to close down the prison camp in 2009, but hey - words of an American ...,another fact is that it is still open and therefore a part of the US justice system.

If you cannot rely on the words of the president why you should believe the words of some some patriotic squeaker? Words that are worth nothing, just noise.

Next ...

[flying]

Ok I see there seems to be a hang up on the minutia called Gitmo by jing.....

Gitmo aside what I am saying in these posts & I think is obvious to all but one....

The new blanket called the Patriot Act <sic> Takes all guarantees of anyone's rights....citizen or not & tosses them.

Same will hold true for this case as it is labeled terrorism.

Yet the Storm troopers/brown army/ black flagger's what ever you want to call them are the last ones who should be throwing these stones claiming indirect terrorism..... They are the worlds largest arms dealer/exporter above & below board.

Edited October 7, 2010 by flying

[craigt3365]

Guatmo is closing. New people don't go there. He ain't going there. 100 percent guarantee. Next ...

I dont believe they would bring Bout to Guantanamo.

But fact is that the new guy promised to close down the prison camp in 2009, but hey - words of an American ...,another fact is that it is still open and therefore a part of the US justice system.

If you cannot rely on the words of the president why you should believe the words of some some patriotic squeaker? Words that are worth nothing, just noise.

Next ...

Gitmo is not part of the US justice system...it is a military camp. Therein lies the problem, and that's why the US is closing it...but not quickly enough. And some of the guys there need to be removed from the gene pool anyway. I have no sympathy for them. They can rot as far as I am concerned.

The guy who recently tried to incinerate Times Square just got life in prison...in about 6 months. He was not held "forever". Seemed to be a quick trial to me...and he was arrested on charges of terrorism. So if words are just nothing, just noise....I guess yous are also?????

Ok I see there seems to be a hang up on the minutia called Gitmo by jing.....

Gitmo aside what I am saying in these posts & I think is obvious to all but one....

The new blanket called the Patriot Act <sic> Takes all guarantees of anyone's rights....citizen or not & tosses them.

Same will hold true for this case as it is labeled terrorism.

Yet the Storm troopers/brown army/ black flagger's what ever you want to call them are the last ones who should be throwing these stones claiming indirect terrorism..... They are the worlds largest arms dealer/exporter above & below board.

[Buchholz]

There's been an astounding 100 forum threads here that discuss Viktor Bout:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1