No Gfci Sockets At Home Pro

[FarangBuddha]

I was in my local Home Pro store today looking for some GFCI outlets and saw that they didn't stock any. I confirmed this with the staff. This seems pretty strange...do Thais ever use these for bathroom/kitchen and outside electrical outlet locations?

If not, is having a GFCI circuit in the main circuit breaker box the equivalent (e.g., Safety Cut) and would this provide the same amount of safety as a CFGI outlet in potentially wet locations?

[Crossy]

Not available (at least I've never seen them), an overall RCD (GFI) is normally used.

The overall unit will actually provide better protection from shock than the localised unit (outlet) because it also protects the cable leading to the outlet (important when your house has 100's of crappy taped joints).

If you want to add extra RCD protection to your wet outlets (bathroom and outside) you can install a 10mA RCBO in place of its MCB.

[FarangBuddha]

Thx Crossy.

[blakegeee]

Not available (at least I've never seen them), an overall RCD (GFI) is normally used.

The overall unit will actually provide better protection from shock than the localised unit (outlet) because it also protects the cable leading to the outlet (important when your house has 100's of crappy taped joints).

If you want to add extra RCD protection to your wet outlets (bathroom and outside) you can install a 10mA RCBO in place of its MCB.

So are you saying that the "cut-out" aka "breaker" is actually better protection than the GFI outlet with the test and reset buttons right on it? I have also been looking for them for our bathrooms but have failed to find them. In Canada, we always have the GFI outlets in potentially wet locations, and we of course have the breaker in the panel as well.

[Crossy]

An overall GFI (RCD or RCBO) breaker also protects you from shock should you come into contact with a live wire BEFORE your outlet (hence my reference to taped joints). Note that these also have 'Test' buttons, the regular breakers (MCBs) don't and only provide overload protection.

In the UK it is an absolute requirement that all circuits are protected by 30mA RCDs located in the distribution board (there are exceptions of course, but 99% of domestic circuits are RCD protected).

Further research revealed that HACO actually make RCD outlets (they even do an RCD protected extension lead), although I've never seen them in HomePro, go here http://www.hacothailand.com/product-thsearch.php?txtsearch=rcd&imageField.x=7&imageField.y=9 to find part numbers, bet you have to order them.

[InterestedObserver]

US / Canadian style GFI sockets are not available in Thailand. They use RCD breakers over here. US style GFI sockets would provide better protection because they trip at a lower current.

[WarpSpeed]

Above is correct but with the foggy wiring here they'd trip constantly just for the sake of it..

Current's doesn't change, of course you mean amperage..

Edited March 3, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[Crossy]

US / Canadian style GFI sockets are not available in Thailand. They use RCD breakers over here. US style GFI sockets would provide better protection because they trip at a lower current.

IO, read my post just before yours, HACO make them

DIN mount RCDs are available down to 10mA trip, suitable for even medical equipment.

[InterestedObserver]

Above is correct but with the foggy wiring here they'd trip constantly just for the sake of it..

Current's doesn't change, of course you mean amperage..

Current difference (L-N) is measured by the US style GFI. Amperage is a unit of measure, current flows through the circuit.

[doglover]

Not available (at least I've never seen them), an overall RCD (GFI) is normally used.

The overall unit will actually provide better protection from shock than the localised unit (outlet) because it also protects the cable leading to the outlet (important when your house has 100's of crappy taped joints).

If you want to add extra RCD protection to your wet outlets (bathroom and outside) you can install a 10mA RCBO in place of its MCB.

So are you saying that the "cut-out" aka "breaker" is actually better protection than the GFI outlet with the test and reset buttons right on it? I have also been looking for them for our bathrooms but have failed to find them. In Canada, we always have the GFI outlets in potentially wet locations, and we of course have the breaker in the panel as well.

Maybe it'll help to hear from a fellow Canadian (also an electrician). A GFI breaker is much better than a GFI outlet for the reason that Crossy mentioned. As far as GFI equipment goes Canada is way behind other countries (even Thailand!) in what code requires or is put into practice by the sensible people. So GFI receptacles, for what you are wanting, are redundant here in Thailand.

My daughter stuck a key in an outlet in the office the other day (of our Thai home) and tripped the main GFI breaker (set to do so at 5mA) immediately. In Canada she would have been electrocuted. So essentially my entire house has better protection than a Canadian bathroom. Not that I'm bashing my home country. Canada rocks!!!

[InterestedObserver]

US / Canadian style GFI sockets are not available in Thailand. They use RCD breakers over here. US style GFI sockets would provide better protection because they trip at a lower current.

IO, read my post just before yours, HACO make them

DIN mount RCDs are available down to 10mA trip, suitable for even medical equipment.

From the US National Electrical Code:

FPN: Class A ground-fault circuit interrupters trip when the current to ground has a value in the range of 4 mA to 6 mA. For further information, see UL 943, standard for Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.

[WarpSpeed]

Above is correct but with the foggy wiring here they'd trip constantly just for the sake of it..

Current's doesn't change, of course you mean amperage..

Current difference (L-N) is measured by the US style GFI. Amperage is a unit of measure, current flows through the circuit.

As per you own source above it's the change in amperage that trips the GFCI, the current flow remains constant I.E 120 for U.S. applications...

Edited March 3, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[blakegeee]

Not available (at least I've never seen them), an overall RCD (GFI) is normally used.

The overall unit will actually provide better protection from shock than the localised unit (outlet) because it also protects the cable leading to the outlet (important when your house has 100's of crappy taped joints).

If you want to add extra RCD protection to your wet outlets (bathroom and outside) you can install a 10mA RCBO in place of its MCB.

So are you saying that the "cut-out" aka "breaker" is actually better protection than the GFI outlet with the test and reset buttons right on it? I have also been looking for them for our bathrooms but have failed to find them. In Canada, we always have the GFI outlets in potentially wet locations, and we of course have the breaker in the panel as well.

Maybe it'll help to hear from a fellow Canadian (also an electrician). A GFI breaker is much better than a GFI outlet for the reason that Crossy mentioned. As far as GFI equipment goes Canada is way behind other countries (even Thailand!) in what code requires or is put into practice by the sensible people. So GFI receptacles, for what you are wanting, are redundant here in Thailand.

My daughter stuck a key in an outlet in the office the other day (of our Thai home) and tripped the main GFI breaker (set to do so at 5mA) immediately. In Canada she would have been electrocuted. So essentially my entire house has better protection than a Canadian bathroom. Not that I'm bashing my home country. Canada rocks!!!

Thanks for that. All the electrical lingo of people from other countries confuses me more, although I do appreciate the contributions . So basically, there is no need to do anything special for the electrical outlet in the bathrooms of the house we are having built? Your saying that the breakers on the panel will be more effective than a GFI outlet would be anyways?

[WarpSpeed]

Not available (at least I've never seen them), an overall RCD (GFI) is normally used.

The overall unit will actually provide better protection from shock than the localised unit (outlet) because it also protects the cable leading to the outlet (important when your house has 100's of crappy taped joints).

If you want to add extra RCD protection to your wet outlets (bathroom and outside) you can install a 10mA RCBO in place of its MCB.

So are you saying that the "cut-out" aka "breaker" is actually better protection than the GFI outlet with the test and reset buttons right on it? I have also been looking for them for our bathrooms but have failed to find them. In Canada, we always have the GFI outlets in potentially wet locations, and we of course have the breaker in the panel as well.

Maybe it'll help to hear from a fellow Canadian (also an electrician). A GFI breaker is much better than a GFI outlet for the reason that Crossy mentioned. As far as GFI equipment goes Canada is way behind other countries (even Thailand!) in what code requires or is put into practice by the sensible people. So GFI receptacles, for what you are wanting, are redundant here in Thailand.

My daughter stuck a key in an outlet in the office the other day (of our Thai home) and tripped the main GFI breaker (set to do so at 5mA) immediately. In Canada she would have been electrocuted. So essentially my entire house has better protection than a Canadian bathroom. Not that I'm bashing my home country. Canada rocks!!!

Thanks for that. All the electrical lingo of people from other countries confuses me more, although I do appreciate the contributions . So basically, there is no need to do anything special for the electrical outlet in the bathrooms of the house we are having built? Your saying that the breakers on the panel will be more effective than a GFI outlet would be anyways?

No, there should be a midstream breaker (on/off) switch for anything coming out of any bathrooms at minimum and a designated ground wire too through the house with grounds/bonding wires to all appliances...

Edited March 3, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[InterestedObserver]

Above is correct but with the foggy wiring here they'd trip constantly just for the sake of it..

Current's doesn't change, of course you mean amperage..

Current difference (L-N) is measured by the US style GFI. Amperage is a unit of measure, current flows through the circuit.

As per you own source above it's the change in amperage that trips the GFCI, the current flow remains constant I.E 120 for U.S. applications...

The current flow certainly does change, there is an increased difference due to the current flow through your body to earth (ground) trying to kill you! I believe you are thinking of voltage when you speak of 120.

[doglover]

Thanks for that. All the electrical lingo of people from other countries confuses me more, although I do appreciate the contributions . So basically, there is no need to do anything special for the electrical outlet in the bathrooms of the house we are having built? Your saying that the breakers on the panel will be more effective than a GFI outlet would be anyways?

Hello Blake. Different countries electrical lingo had me confused until I read up on it as well. You will find the terms RCD, ELCB, RCCB, RCBO and GFCI (us lazy types call it a GFI) is basically the same thing in it's effect. Now make sure you understand that the breaker MUST be a GFI breaker, not just a typical breaker. Most people here in Thailand would not install a receptacle in their washroom, for safety reasons, as we do in Canada. And if you think about it, it makes sense. Notice how people tile half way up the bathroom wall here in Thailand. Thais are used to spraying and splashing water everywhere and will not keep the location of the receptacle in mind, as you would. Even if you have the receptacle properly protected (as above) it is an electronic/mechanical device that could fail.

On the flip side, with no receptacle installed someone may be tempted to just run an extension cord into the bathroom from a receptacle outside of the bathroom becoming even more hazardous than the original scenario. So, if you figure you must have a receptacle in your bathroom reply stating that fact and someone will assist with how this should be done to minimize the risk.

Now as WarpSpeed mentioned proper grounding and bonding is essential. Ensure this has been completed. Also we do not have on demand electric water heaters in our Canadian bathrooms of course. I cannot verify that a midstream breaker or switch is REQUIRED just outside the bathroom. But I do have one in my home just outside the washroom for my hot water heaters. At least someone can switch this off in a hurry were they to witness an electrocution of the showerer. Cuz besides sticking your tongue on the main breaker, the shower is the scariest place in the house.

EDIT * be sure to have your bathroom switches (for light/fan) installed just outside the bathroom as well, in case you were thinking of doing it CDN style.

Edited March 3, 2011 by doglover

[WarpSpeed]

Above is correct but with the foggy wiring here they'd trip constantly just for the sake of it..

Current's doesn't change, of course you mean amperage..

Current difference (L-N) is measured by the US style GFI. Amperage is a unit of measure, current flows through the circuit.

As per you own source above it's the change in amperage that trips the GFCI, the current flow remains constant I.E 120 for U.S. applications...

The current flow certainly does change, there is an increased difference due to the current flow through your body to earth (ground) trying to kill you! I believe you are thinking of voltage when you speak of 120.

Ok, fair point...

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for that. All the electrical lingo of people from other countries confuses me more, although I do appreciate the contributions . So basically, there is no need to do anything special for the electrical outlet in the bathrooms of the house we are having built? Your saying that the breakers on the panel will be more effective than a GFI outlet would be anyways?

Hello Blake. Different countries electrical lingo had me confused until I read up on it as well. You will find the terms RCD, ELCB, RCCB, RCBO and GFCI (us lazy types call it a GFI) is basically the same thing in it's effect. Now make sure you understand that the breaker MUST be a GFI breaker, not just a typical breaker. Most people here in Thailand would not install a receptacle in their washroom, for safety reasons, as we do in Canada. And if you think about it, it makes sense. Notice how people tile half way up the bathroom wall here in Thailand. Thais are used to spraying and splashing water everywhere and will not keep the location of the receptacle in mind, as you would. Even if you have the receptacle properly protected (as above) it is an electronic/mechanical device that could fail.

On the flip side, with no receptacle installed someone may be tempted to just run an extension cord into the bathroom from a receptacle outside of the bathroom becoming even more hazardous than the original scenario. So, if you figure you must have a receptacle in your bathroom reply stating that fact and someone will assist with how this should be done to minimize the risk.

Now as WarpSpeed mentioned proper grounding and bonding is essential. Ensure this has been completed. Also we do not have on demand electric water heaters in our Canadian bathrooms of course. I cannot verify that a midstream breaker or switch is REQUIRED just outside the bathroom. But I do have one in my home just outside the washroom for my hot water heaters. At least someone can switch this off in a hurry were they to witness an electrocution of the showerer. Cuz besides sticking your tongue on the main breaker, the shower is the scariest place in the house.

EDIT * be sure to have your bathroom switches (for light/fan) installed just outside the bathroom as well, in case you were thinking of doing it CDN style.

Also that breaker is always the quick disconnect prior to the main breaker it will blow first and easiest it's more then just a manual disconnect..

Edited March 3, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[doglover]

I thought there was something about not putting 2 breakers in the same line. And that this could cause them to trip at a higher overload than they would if there was only 1 breaker. Has my memory failed me?

Shouldn't the circuit actually consist of the MCB (appropriately GFI protected) in the panel to a properly rated disconnect (not a breaker) just outside the bathroom and on to the shower?

[Crossy]

DL, you're thinking about discrimination when you have two similarly rated breakers in series, it's difficult or impossible to determine which one will open first in the event of a fault, but rest assured, the fault current will not be any higher than it would be with a single breaker.

There is no requirement for local isolation of a water heater, bathroom outlet or for that matter anything else, it certainly won't do any harm if it makes you feel better, as you indicate a simple switch isolator will be cheaper than an MCB (breaker).

As you can see, electrical regs vary around the world and whilst there are no proper regulations to follow for Thailand confusion will reign. The general opinion of the sparkies on this board is that the Aussie regs are the best fit for the local conditions (same voltage, similar climate and local installations are very similar in format) , they're available online should you wish to obtain a copy.

[doglover]

DL, you're thinking about discrimination when you have two similarly rated breakers in series, it's difficult or impossible to determine which one will open first in the event of a fault, but rest assured, the fault current will not be any higher than it would be with a single breaker.

There is no requirement for local isolation of a water heater, bathroom outlet or for that matter anything else, it certainly won't do any harm if it makes you feel better, as you indicate a simple switch isolator will be cheaper than an MCB (breaker).

As you can see, electrical regs vary around the world and whilst there are no proper regulations to follow for Thailand confusion will reign. The general opinion of the sparkies on this board is that the Aussie regs are the best fit for the local conditions (same voltage, similar climate and local installations are very similar in format) , they're available online should you wish to obtain a copy.

Good idea........and thanks for the refresher.

[blakegeee]

Thanks for all the info everybody. I have already ensured that the house house will be wired with a proper ground. Not just 3-hole outlets, but a ground wire actually connected to the 3rd hole and to a ground rod.

So for an outlet in the bathroom, what is suggested? It sounds like most suggest to have an additional GFI-type braker just for this receptacle, in addition to the braker in the panel? So I can find the right one, what is this "cut-out" known as "in Thailand"?

[blakegeee]

The electrical pipes are already plastered (cemented) in now although the wires aren't in place yet. Would it be acceptable to have this outlet hooked up to the same extra braker as the water heater? The whole bathroom "shouldn't" be wet anyways "by design" although Thais will probably manage it on occasion.

[doglover]

Thanks for all the info everybody. I have already ensured that the house house will be wired with a proper ground. Not just 3-hole outlets, but a ground wire actually connected to the 3rd hole and to a ground rod.

So for an outlet in the bathroom, what is suggested? It sounds like most suggest to have an additional GFI-type braker just for this receptacle, in addition to the braker in the panel? So I can find the right one, what is this "cut-out" known as "in Thailand"?

Check out this excellent site Blake. http://www.crossy.co...g/bathroom.html The link takes you to area that will address your concerns. You are at special place in that you are just starting your electrical install. PUT IT ON HOLD! Read through the rest of Crossy's site and then make your plan for your electrical. That split consumer unit is an awesome idea so read up on that for sure. Drop the terminology "cut-out" and just use "breaker". In Thailand GFCI breakers are known as "safe-t-cut". Your electrician will understand this right away. If he doesn't, get a new one.

The electrical pipes are already plastered (cemented) in now although the wires aren't in place yet. Would it be acceptable to have this outlet hooked up to the same extra braker as the water heater? The whole bathroom "shouldn't" be wet anyways "by design" although Thais will probably manage it on occasion.

No. Have your water heaters on their own individual breakers only. Just hit that link above for how you will wire the bathroom receptacle.

[blakegeee]

My friend apparently has one of the receptacles in his guesthouse room that has the test/reset buttons on it so maybe I'll look for those again now. At this point, I don't know where I could put the big breaker switches for these outlets in the bathroom. As I said, the pipes for the wiring has already been plastered/cemented in the walls.

[Crossy]

My friend apparently has one of the receptacles in his guesthouse room that has the test/reset buttons on it so maybe I'll look for those again now. At this point, I don't know where I could put the big breaker switches for these outlets in the bathroom. As I said, the pipes for the wiring has already been plastered/cemented in the walls.

As I noted earlier, Haco Thailand make them.

Go here http://www.hacothailand.com/product-thsearch.php?txtsearch=rcd&imageField.x=7&imageField.y=9 for descriptions (in Thai and English), pictures and part numbers.

Should be enough info for your local electrical emporium to order for you

You would install the GFI / RCD / ELCB (same thing) in your distribution board, you can get a beastie called an RCBO which will replace the standard MCB (breaker) and provide both overload and shock protection.

[WarpSpeed]

I thought there was something about not putting 2 breakers in the same line. And that this could cause them to trip at a higher overload than they would if there was only 1 breaker. Has my memory failed me?

Shouldn't the circuit actually consist of the MCB (appropriately GFI protected) in the panel to a properly rated disconnect (not a breaker) just outside the bathroom and on to the shower?

It's a matter of redundancy, back up if one system fails to react, both for shock prevention and for ground fault protection I.E. dead short..

[blakegeee]

My friend apparently has one of the receptacles in his guesthouse room that has the test/reset buttons on it so maybe I'll look for those again now. At this point, I don't know where I could put the big breaker switches for these outlets in the bathroom. As I said, the pipes for the wiring has already been plastered/cemented in the walls.

As I noted earlier, Haco Thailand make them.

Go here http://www.hacothail...&imageField.y=9 for descriptions (in Thai and English), pictures and part numbers.

Should be enough info for your local electrical emporium to order for you

Ahh, ok great! I am assuming that they fit in the standard size box? That way I can just pull out what the builder has in there and install this instead? That should make this quite easy now. Thanks a lot!

Now should I be going for the 10mA or 30mA protection? I will use these in the bathrooms and 2 outside receptacles.

Edited March 4, 2011 by blakegeee

[Crossy]

My friend apparently has one of the receptacles in his guesthouse room that has the test/reset buttons on it so maybe I'll look for those again now. At this point, I don't know where I could put the big breaker switches for these outlets in the bathroom. As I said, the pipes for the wiring has already been plastered/cemented in the walls.

As I noted earlier, Haco Thailand make them.

Go here http://www.hacothail...&imageField.y=9 for descriptions (in Thai and English), pictures and part numbers.

Should be enough info for your local electrical emporium to order for you

Ahh, ok great! I am assuming that they fit in the standard size box? That way I can just pull out what the builder has in there and install this instead? That should make this quite easy now. Thanks a lot!

The Haco system consists of mounting plates that fit the wallbox and outlets, switches, fan controllers etc. that clip into them, they do indeed fit into a standard box so if you can obtain them they should be an easy retro-fit. Get the 10mA ones for bathroom use.

[blakegeee]

My friend apparently has one of the receptacles in his guesthouse room that has the test/reset buttons on it so maybe I'll look for those again now. At this point, I don't know where I could put the big breaker switches for these outlets in the bathroom. As I said, the pipes for the wiring has already been plastered/cemented in the walls.

As I noted earlier, Haco Thailand make them.

Go here http://www.hacothail...&imageField.y=9 for descriptions (in Thai and English), pictures and part numbers.

Should be enough info for your local electrical emporium to order for you

Ahh, ok great! I am assuming that they fit in the standard size box? That way I can just pull out what the builder has in there and install this instead? That should make this quite easy now. Thanks a lot!

The Haco system consists of mounting plates that fit the wallbox and outlets, switches, fan controllers etc. that clip into them, they do indeed fit into a standard box so if you can obtain them they should be an easy retro-fit. Get the 10mA ones for bathroom use.

Perfect! ...and 10mA or 30mA for outside use?