Thailand Not Ready For English As Second Language

[dudopode]

I used to be an English teacher in Thailand and once we had a seminar with a representative of the Ministry of Education. I asked her then "is it real that we cant fail students in Thailnd and why?" . The answer was "yes because it is not good for business"

Therfore as long as you cant fail kids... they DONT study... so dont waste your time about trying to improve anything.... the kids just dont study.

thats why the education is soooo bad in Thailand.

If u cant fail a kid... how can u motivate them to study???

[vahack]

Chinese is a better 2nd language for Thailand.

Chin has a stronger economy than the US, does more business with Thailand than the US does, and China will be the sole economic superpower in 20 years.

my kid is learning Thai, English and Chinese.

[Guest]

Proof positive that Thailand is not ready for English as a second language is shown in many of the "English language" news reports published here and elsewhere by Thai press agencies, including the big two English language newspapers.

[Artisi]

What is the first language???? Alot of Thai's cannot speak Thai. Just talk to any girfriend or wife of a farang living in LOS. Most of them speak Isan -Laos and have difficulty reading newspapers.When was the last time you saw any Thai sitting down reading the paper? Farangs who marry 'thai" speak provincial isan dailects not Thai. POK POK!!!! sep-ili

Where did you get this load of cr_p from?

My wife speaks, reads, and writes Thai as well as being highly skilled in reading, writing, listening and speaking English, as for Isan dialect, she has trouble understanding it and dosn't even try to speak it.

[Johnnie99]

Yes qualified teachers. I have one staff who is a UNI grad and she cannot read English and barely speaks it despite several years of English classes apparently. On the other hand, I have another staff, no UNI, and is fluent in both reading and speaking English which he studies on his own.

Who knows though, maybe they should be studying Chinese instead.

"Qualified teachers" ... the school in which I work has 'qualified' teachers of English - Thai nationals. However, try having a conversation with them. Non-starters in all cases. These are graduates of English Language, not some obscure sub-discipline. Even in the English Programme, our Thai co-teachers are virtually unable to communicate in English. (And not wishing to be 'picky but 'staff' is plural in all cases.)

[Johnnie99]

Chinese is a better 2nd language for Thailand.

Chin has a stronger economy than the US, does more business with Thailand than the US does, and China will be the sole economic superpower in 20 years.

my kid is learning Thai, English and Chinese.

I always tell my staff and students that a 'kid' is a young goat.

[mark45y]

When I was a young man in the US I tried teaching without grades. It upset the administration which was what I wanted. I don't know if it would have worked or not because they fired me.

Then I got a job at a school for the blind. The kids were really motivated. I gave everybody A's.

I think if you have really motivated students or really good teachers you don't need grades.

I knew one teacher who brought brooms to class here in Thailand. He sent the students out to sweep if they didn't want to learn. I thought it was a good idea. He got fired.

I realize fear and negative motivation are not the best tools for education.

I would really be interested if a working teacher who speaks both English and Thai had some ideas other than fear or bribery to motivate students.

[Johnnie99]

Are you trying to say that the bar girls speak better English (& German, & Russian, & Arabic, etc) than the UNI grads?

Seems likely given the daily practice they have in conversational English. Probably the university graduates write better English if it's any consolation.

No ... they don't, sadly. Copying and pasting works for bar girls and uni 'grads'.

[PlanetX]

When I was a young man in the US I tried teaching without grades. It upset the administration which was what I wanted. I don't know if it would have worked or not because they fired me.

Then I got a job at a school for the blind. The kids were really motivated. I gave everybody A's.

I think if you have really motivated students or really good teachers you don't need grades.

I knew one teacher who brought brooms to class here in Thailand. He sent the students out to sweep if they didn't want to learn. I thought it was a good idea. He got fired.

I realize fear and negative motivation are not the best tools for education.

I would really be interested if a working teacher who speaks both English and Thai had some ideas other than fear or bribery to motivate students.

Good point about motivation.

It doesnt really seem like the country is motivated to have english as a second language. There are plenty of successful strategies that have been developed by many other countries,

I do find myself slightly surprised when I speak with a Thai that is very fluent in english - I especially enjoy the high dollar advertisements that have glaring errors as well because you would think that a major advertiser would have to get it right

It does offer an amazing opportunity for foreigners that learn Thai though - a much richer experience that money couldnt buy

Edited October 11, 2010 by PlanetX

[mca]

A while back, in a similar topic, there was one guy who said his daughter took a test in school where they were shown a number of photos/drawings of various things, and had to write, in English what they were. One of the pictures was a simple battery, and "battery" was his daughter's answer. The teacher marked it wrong. After class, when the girl asked the teacher why she had marked her answer wrong, the teacher replied that the the correct answer is "Copper Top". The girl told her father, who went to the school the next day with various types of batteries and tried to explain to the teacher that there was only one brand known by that name, but that all of them were called "batteries". Teacher was infuriated, but adamant that they are ALL called "Copper Tops". The guy took his daughter out of that school and enrolled her in another one.

Which is all the weirder because Thais use the English word " battery" themselves.

[SkyHigh]

Thai schools in no ways can afford native English speaker or qualified teacher.

Just take a look at Eng language institute on BKK CBD area.

25000 B for 20 hrs chit chat with foreigners who speak eng.

It's 50000+ B/semester for a good international school where your children can learn/speak eng whereas 300 B(or free) gov school.

..... you can expect the result.

Edited October 11, 2010 by SkyHigh

[Tokay]

In all seriousness, it is almost 2011. There is no excuse to not be learning SOMETHING as a second language.

Kudos to the Thais who have gone the extra step to learn another language on their own.

[passon]

Sorry to be so vociferous this morning, but just had to add something about TV:

When I interact with a Thai who wants to improve their English, I'll say a phrase in Thai and immediately say the same in English. It sometimes happens the other way: first say it in English, then the same in Thai.

How about a TV program which does the same? Since 95% of Thai TV is soaps dealing with screwed up inter-personal crap, also change the venue - to science and nature topics - and keep it simple. For example, a couple of bright young people explaining the solar system: For each sentence uttered, the same in the other language follows immediately. ....could do it for shows on plants, animals, chemistry, geology, archeology, rocketry...

Naw, perhaps smarter to stick with the TV topic that's most popular in Thailand; Emotionally shipwrecked females screaming at each other.

There is actually a Thai show on Sunday morning television that uses this concept. I believe it is called, English Breakfast. It has mostly younger Thai actors that are involved in a variety of situations, whereas they communicate in English first and immediately repeat the words or sentence(s) in Thai. These actors overall speak very good English and I have recommended the program to Thais if they are truly serious about learning English. It actually also works well the other way around for English speakers. I have not watched it for several months, but as far as I know, it is still airing on television. I think it is a good model for expanding this concept within the English curriculum.

[trogers]

Chinese is a better 2nd language for Thailand.

Chin has a stronger economy than the US, does more business with Thailand than the US does, and China will be the sole economic superpower in 20 years.

my kid is learning Thai, English and Chinese.

I always tell my staff and students that a 'kid' is a young goat.

Yes, someone needs to borrow your rubber...

[olivier2553]

"Schools should create an English learning atmosphere by placing boards in English with language vocabularies around the schools, having students perform English language stage dramas, teaching maths and science in English and having foreigners meet and talk to students," Varakorn said.

It says it all: if a list of vocabulary is an English atmosphere, the reform needs to start at MOE level.

[mark45y]

Thai schools in no ways can afford native English speaker or qualified teacher.

Just take a look at Eng language institute on BKK CBD area.

25000 B for 20 hrs chit chat with foreigners who speak eng.

It's 50000+ B/semester for a good international school where your children can learn/speak eng whereas 300 B(or free) gov school.

..... you can expect the result.

Out here in the sticks they pay Filipinos (with teaching degree) who speak decent English 300 baht per hour. English nationals 450 per hour. They have 40 kids per class P 1 - P 6. The teachers work between 20 and 30 hours a week. Most government schools seem to be able to afford one native speaker Englishman or two Filipinos. The Filipinos who can't speak English at all seem to work at the private schools.

No Thai assistant teachers. That's for inexperienced teachers who don't speak Thai.

Edited October 11, 2010 by mark45y

[trogers]

I used to be an English teacher in Thailand and once we had a seminar with a representative of the Ministry of Education. I asked her then "is it real that we cant fail students in Thailnd and why?" . The answer was "yes because it is not good for business"

Therfore as long as you cant fail kids... they DONT study... so dont waste your time about trying to improve anything.... the kids just dont study.

thats why the education is soooo bad in Thailand.

If u cant fail a kid... how can u motivate them to study???

What is the value of a Thai certificate of education when a student who does not deserve a pass cannot be failed?

[hardy1943]

The OP article is not clear. It seems to dwell on logistics, rather than the basic premise of whether English should be Thailand's 2nd language. Of course it should! What other language comes close, in importance and validity?

And yes, there are logistical hurdles to overcome. Most English teachers in Thailand are Thai, and most of them have a poor handle on the language. To compensate, they burden their students with archaic and unnecessary semantics. Classrooms have too many students, therefore not enough conversational learning via student interaction.

The Imm Dept has been making visas for farang increasingly difficult, therefore thinning out the numbers of potential English teachers who are native speakers. It's grossly counter-productive in the big picture of things. If Thailand wants to be a player on the world stage, it needs lots more English speakers. I go in to large department stores, large business places (banks, hospitals, government buildings, etc) and if I'm lucky, perhaps one person out of dozens is able to speak an English sentence of more than 3 words.

Since Thais spend so much time watching TV (rather than reading books or doing outdoor activities), then how about more English speaking programs on Thai TV? Keep it simple and entertaining. Perhaps have a little quiz at the end of each program.

Having it on TV is a great idea or is it? Seems the TV'S are on all the time even when no one is there. I am not sure they paying attention maybe it is there to produce noise Thai seem to love it.

[mark45y]

Chinese is a better 2nd language for Thailand.

Chin has a stronger economy than the US, does more business with Thailand than the US does, and China will be the sole economic superpower in 20 years.

my kid is learning Thai, English and Chinese.

Exports - partners: United States 22.3%, Japan 13.7%, Singapore 8.6%, Hong Kong 5.1%, Netherlands 4.0%, United Kingdom 3.9%, Malaysia 3.3%, mainland China 3.2%, Taiwan 3.2%, Germany 2.9% (1998)

Imports - partners: Japan 23.6%, United States 14.0%, Singapore 5.5%, Malaysia 5.1%, Taiwan 5.2%, Germany 4.2%, mainland China 4.2%, South Korea 3.5%, Oman 2.6%, Indonesia 2.1% (1998)

The above figures are from 2000.

Now I believe the US is # 3 after Japan and China. But I can't find the percentages.

[Bruce1]

Singapore has shown how to do it, but I doubt if Thailand will copy them. The reason is in Singapore education is in English, but each student also has to learn another language (Malay, Mandarin or Tamil). Thai cultural bureaucrats are too proud of their Thai language and confuse it with their cultural identity to ever accept their education being in English. They would rather be proud Thais, but unable to communicate internationally, which seems a bit strange.

At the very least they could have two official languages, Thai and English, and require everything to be available in both.

They should also require more English TV channels to be broadcast free to air, instead of restricting them to cable. Australia now has 16 free to air channels, they could do the same. Just give each existing operator another frequency, but require all programs to be in English. There are numerous English foreign programs which could be bought in, and would certainly raise the overall quality of TV in Thailand, which is pretty abysmal.

For Thais to become trulty bilingual, they need more exposure than merely a few hours a week in school classes, which just doesn't work.

[scorecard]

There is another problem that people are forgetting and that is what is referred to as "Linguistic Distance."

Unlike many European languages which have a lot of similarities in grammar and vocabulary, not to mention using the same alphabet, Thai is a long way from English. Not many words are similar, grammar is significantly different and the alphabet has little in common with English.

This means that they need an early and concerted effort to teach English. It's a much bigger task in Asian countries such as Japan, Korea and China than it is in European countries.

The education system also has problems that complicate the functional use of English for many students. Those that can afford the better schools, of course, have a higher level of competency in English.

So what? Mandarin speakers in Singapore embraced English firly quickly.

But the bottom line is very simple. Let's get started, now!

[swerver]

Yes qualified teachers. I have one staff who is a UNI grad and she cannot read English and barely speaks it despite several years of English classes apparently. On the other hand, I have another staff, no UNI, and is fluent in both reading and speaking English which he studies on his own.

Who knows though, maybe they should be studying Chinese instead.

You hit the nail right on the head,

From years of experience with Asian workers it nearly always turned out that the Thai ones having good control of English learned it on their own. The U grades turned out to be a disaster at the pre-employment testing; consequently they were not offered a good paying job working in Saudi Arabia.

When working in Saudi Arabia the company employed 1700 Thais versus 15000 Philipino.

King Fahd (RIP) at the time wanted to know the big difference to make sure there was no hank-panky going on. He put a slowdown on hiring Philipino / Philipina. This was difficult because most nursing personnel in the company Hospital had to speak – read – write English. And Thai U grads Medical Personnel repeatedly did not pass the pre-employment tests. In addition, Thais having Thai Driver license 70% failed the company depth perception test for a company driver license, so they were restricted from driving company vehicles.

[Xangsamhua]

I wonder if it matters what the Ministry of Education or the government thinks. Or even what thaivisa.com posters think, for that matter. Parents, especially in Bangkok, are taking the initiative and voting with their feet. They're sending their children in droves to private bilingual schools that offer roughly 50:50 Thai and English medium teaching (higher English ratio in some years; higher Thai in others).

One private school affiliation with 25 schools and over 60,000 students has opened 12 bilingual schools (or schools with bilingual programs) since 2000, the largest having 8000 students.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[spiderleghead]

As a lot of sineage and product information is also in English it would make sense to make it the 2nd language, however, before declaration English teaching needs to be re-thought. I find a lot of children can speak a little although not with confidence,but when it comes to the words meaning "can you show me.......?" they have not a clue. My only conclusion is that the method teaching is not what it should be,

The proposed 2nd language regulations would have no impact on the teaching of younger children, as they would continue to be taught by Thai speakers, albeit there is a requirement that they hold a degree in English (a lot of difference that would make, considering the poor level of English skills amongst grads of Thai university English programs). The 2nd language regs focus on upper mathayom students (M4-6) mandating that they be taught by NES.

The problem they have run into is that the TCT has queered up the certification process for foreign teachers. They could have an adequate pool of good teachers for the 2nd language program, but the TCT is determined to extract money from the foreigner teachers (and enriching certain programs connected with Burapha U. which is well-represented in the TCT). Hence, they have created a licensing exam that is nearly impossible to pass, and bears no resemblance to the skills needed for TESL teachers, with the only alternative being to pay for 15 units of university work towards an education degree (and, hence, the enrichment of Burapha and the programs it certifies).

The TCT has indicated in its deliberations that it doesn't care if good foreign teachers are chased out of the country because they can't afford to meet the educational requirements, as there is a steady stream of backpackers who will be granted waivers to teach for a year in Thailand. Hence, as I indicated in the other thread on this topic, the TCT is at cross-purposes with the MOE on this issue. The TCT has no interest in actually increasing the quality of foreign teachers, it is only interested in lining the pockets of its members and connected organizations. TIT!

Thank you for a voice of reason. My school is expanding the foreign language department at the moment. But it is more concerned with the money it generates rather then the impact it has on the students. My only fear is that, as with my school, the extra money granted by the government will only serve to line the pockets of the owners of the schools, and not go to pay the teachers who are actually working their asses off and fighting the losing battle that is educating the students in the schools.

[SkyHigh]

Thai schools in no ways can afford native English speaker or qualified teacher.

Just take a look at Eng language institute on BKK CBD area.

25000 B for 20 hrs chit chat with foreigners who speak eng.

It's 50000+ B/semester for a good international school where your children can learn/speak eng whereas 300 B(or free) gov school.

..... you can expect the result.

Out here in the sticks they pay Filipinos (with teaching degree) who speak decent English 300 baht per hour. English nationals 450 per hour. They have 40 kids per class P 1 - P 6. The teachers work between 20 and 30 hours a week. Most government schools seem to be able to afford one native speaker Englishman or two Filipinos. The Filipinos who can't speak English at all seem to work at the private schools.

No Thai assistant teachers. That's for inexperienced teachers who don't speak Thai.

Thanks for info.

1 per 40 mean each student has 15 min a day to actually speak English.

That's not gonna help much.

Yea I have been thru that before !

[spiderleghead]

Thai schools in no ways can afford native English speaker or qualified teacher.

Just take a look at Eng language institute on BKK CBD area.

25000 B for 20 hrs chit chat with foreigners who speak eng.

It's 50000+ B/semester for a good international school where your children can learn/speak eng whereas 300 B(or free) gov school.

..... you can expect the result.

Out here in the sticks they pay Filipinos (with teaching degree) who speak decent English 300 baht per hour. English nationals 450 per hour. They have 40 kids per class P 1 - P 6. The teachers work between 20 and 30 hours a week. Most government schools seem to be able to afford one native speaker Englishman or two Filipinos. The Filipinos who can't speak English at all seem to work at the private schools.

No Thai assistant teachers. That's for inexperienced teachers who don't speak Thai.

Thanks for info.

1 per 40 mean each student has 15 min a day to actually speak English.

That's not gonna help much.

Yea I have been thru that before !

my school charges the students 8000 baht per semester for the benefit of native speakers, this equates to 12 million baht per year, out salary mounts up to 1.4 million baht per year. do the math

[Xangsamhua]

The problem they have run into is that the TCT has queered up the certification process for foreign teachers. They could have an adequate pool of good teachers for the 2nd language program, but the TCT is determined to extract money from the foreigner teachers (and enriching certain programs connected with Burapha U. which is well-represented in the TCT). Hence, they have created a licensing exam that is nearly impossible to pass, and bears no resemblance to the skills needed for TESL teachers, with the only alternative being to pay for 15 units of university work towards an education degree (and, hence, the enrichment of Burapha and the programs it certifies).

The TCT has indicated in its deliberations that it doesn't care if good foreign teachers are chased out of the country because they can't afford to meet the educational requirements, as there is a steady stream of backpackers who will be granted waivers to teach for a year in Thailand. Hence, as I indicated in the other thread on this topic, the TCT is at cross-purposes with the MOE on this issue. The TCT has no interest in actually increasing the quality of foreign teachers, it is only interested in lining the pockets of its members and connected organizations. TIT!

There are a number of universities offering courses for teachers who have a non-Education degree. I don't know anyone doing the Burapa course, but will try to get some details. Several teachers I know are doing a course offered by a Bangkok (Thonburi) university that makes acceptable demands on their time and they seem quite happy with it. I have no objection in principle to the Thai government expecting its teachers, including foreigners, to be qualified as teachers and I doubt that government officials really care if the country catches up with the rest of the world or not, or what the world thinks of them.

[dighambara]

Yes qualified teachers. I have one staff who is a UNI grad and she cannot read English and barely speaks it despite several years of English classes apparently. On the other hand, I have another staff, no UNI, and is fluent in both reading and speaking English which he studies on his own.

Who knows though, maybe they should be studying Chinese instead.

As long as Thailand has it's odd rules regarding retirees working, they can't receive assistance from any Native English Speakers retired here - many of whom would work for free.

I associate with many such retirees, who are happy with their income and would love to teach. However, Thailand removes all the incentive, by making it illegal for retirees to work. So, just for fun, we help our neighbors, friends and families with their studies...

Even though we speak English better than most Thai English teachers (LOL), getting certification and changing visas would require jumping thru hoops... Plus, realistically, most of us would also want some recognition; a certificate, or uniform, or our name on the door...LOL

[IvanDobsky]

One of the major problems :

When they sit their final school examinations in Matteyum 6, they have only a reading exam. No speaking, listening or written exams. How bizarre! I can't imagine learning a second language anywhere in Europe without having all four skills tested.

Another :

I bet around 60% of "farang" teachers don't have a basic grasp of grammar, parts of speech or phonetics. Especially these kids here an a gap-year. They can speak but that's about it. The Thai teachers can understand grammar but often can't speak proficiently. If the teachers don't understand, what chance have the kids got? I reckon you could take any teacher of English from northern Europe, and they would do a better job than most "farang" and almost all of the Thai teachers.

One more :

Apparently, we are only here to teach 'speaking' while one Thai teacher teaches 'reading' and another 'grammar'. Since when could you teach one without the others?

[Unwisemonkey]

I'm teaching English, and the logistical problems are huge. The English programs at school have the same problems as every other program. Namely the no fail policies. Oh you've thrown chalk and chipped tile at Ajarn all year long like a rabid monkey, let's have a ceremony to celebrate your academic progress! Beyond students attitudes is the resource problems. I teach at a fairly well known high school that gets lots of cash pumped into it from the parents and the government. But we share 4 computers between a staff of over 20 in the English Department.... Okay make due with what you have I say and take the blows on the chin, but it gets even more ridiculous. The computers are not properly networked together and the Staff Thai, and foreign have not been trained on how to use the systems that are streamlined and easily used. There is no central server for Teachers to log into from home so they can continue working on assignments, the school has a website for showcasing bologna achievements of the students and administrators but there is no academic uses at all. Facebook is blocked on all school computers which is a pain in the ass because I cannot communicate with my friends who are proffesional teachers in a timely manner, but that's a minor grievance, however the computer lab which is always full of students has FPS games, access to pornography and more.

The Thai Staff is completely divisive with one another too. There are two camps. One supports the native speakers teaching and values our input, the other camp is hyper critical, enjoy interuppting our classes, and revel in listening to the students abuse the foreign teacher in Thai language curses, and do everything they can do undermine the situation. The old guard is about to be retired that is the only saving grace and it seems the Government is advocating early retirement to get new, younger, friendlier, open minded teachers who can speak better English in and working.

Then there is classroom size. teaching tools, testing tools too, no scantrons or anything everything is done by hand... this is 2010! I am at a very popular school for people to send there kids at and the teachers don't even have a scantron... /rant.

English is the most powerful language in the world. It is very difficult language to learn despite others comments, because it is also the most alive and thriving constantly assimilating new words. Spanglish anyone?