Abduction Of My Daughter, By My Thai Wife

[scott1999]

Mario2008,MikeyIdea, sarahsbloke. to name but a few, what help thank you all.

tonight i will go to the police station and see whats happend today , if the half sister is out , if the mother has turned up?

[scott1999]

went to see the police last night and they told me the half sister had been released on bail, so they have paid the 100,000 and that they have a lawyer, so i still did not get to see my daughter,

but what did give me hope, is the police said in the next week or so when the half sister appears before the judge,

ok all what im about to say i am only guessing and if anyone has a better understanding of thai law please please help,

when the half sister appears in front of the judge , the judge will want to see me and the mother and my daughter, hes powers are that he will say where the child will live and for how many days a week to each parent , but this order is only a temporarily order till the criminal case or the divorce case gets to court and can be in a position to make a judgement on everything,

sorry this does not sound to clear , but its what i heard from the police and my lawyer,

[Mario2008]

I suspect the criminal case against the step sister and the custody case will be two different things, but seems the lawyer and police are doing their jobs and there will be an emergency ruling by the court on the child's custody. The judge will than rule on who has custody over the child for the time being, till the case can be heard in full during the divorce procedings.

The case against the stepsister will be a different matter, I suspect the judge will want to hear the stepsister and ask her some questions. She better answers these questions, as she doens't want to piss off a Thai judge. But suspect this will be more a court hearing on if she pleads guilty or not, the trial will be at a later date.

Edit: more on Thai criminal law here: http://www.chavalitfinchlaw.com/publications/publications.html

[BasementCat]

It seems to me that the step sister will be charged depending on what happened to the child after abduction, and this is why the judge wants to see Scott's daughter and wife in court. I suspect that if the kid will not be in the court room, the step sister is going to get into a serious trouble because she can not prove that the girl is safe. It seems like a good chance for Scott to meet his daughter next week.

[MikeyIdea]

when the half sister appears in front of the judge , the judge will want to see me and the mother and my daughter, hes powers are that he will say where the child will live and for how many days a week to each parent , but this order is only a temporarily order till the criminal case or the divorce case gets to court and can be in a position to make a judgement on everything,

Thai courts can react quickly indeed when they want; The step sister is due in court but I understand it to be a criminal court hearing. But your lawyer says that a temporary custody order will be given out. This is a procedure that I’ve never heard of but never mind, your lawyer has done a good job this far so I'm not going to argue. There is simply something here I don't know

The judge wants to see you, the mother and the daughter, to determine what happened after the abduction, yes, and I suppose input for temporary custody decision. The mother will be put under pressure (by step sister and relatives) to come, I don’t think she will let the daughter come too though, sorry Scott. I do hope you will be re-united with your daughter soon but I don’t think it will be in the court room. See it from the bright side, it won’t be that long until you will and court is probably not the best place anyway. 9-year-old children are so easily misled or brain-washed too

The step sisters only choice to (in the end) clear herself from abduction changes should still be to say that the did it on behalf of the mother or the mother came and took the child before she could give the child back. She has a lawyer now so I bet that is what the lawyer will tell her to say regardless of it’s true or not. She will go to jail if she doesn’t. That doesn’t make her entirely guilt free, she should have notified you but she did not. If the mother confirms this happened, then the step sister will probably only get a thousand bath penalty or so, no jail. No compensation (legally) possible in criminal cases

Your lawyer says that there will be a temporary custody decision, I like this. I recommend that you are the calm father always caring and worrying about your childs best. Everything to take care of the child is already prepared of course. Ask the lawyer to brief you in how to behave in a Thai court, very! Important. Push that the child was/is denied education, and of course that the mother has been nowhere to be seen and you have taken care of the child yourself for the last 2 years. That should be serious enough to get a temporary custody order in your favour. Quite a victory. The mother will not be popular if she disregards a court order regarding temporary custody

Soon, Soon, hang in there

[Nawtier]

good luck.

[Mario2008]

The mother might not take the child with her to court, but to exonerate the stepsister she will have to show up to confirm what the stepsister is telling. And during the judge in the provisional custody hearing can and will order the child to be handed over to the person who gets the custody. Not doing so would mean kidnapping and violating a court order. Not a wise thing to do in any country and it will mean arrest and jail time. Which puts sole custody a little bit closer by.

Indeed, dress and act very respectful and act like a loving father. Don't go on about the mother and certainly avoid a shouting match with her in court.

[scott1999]

when the half sister appears in front of the judge , the judge will want to see me and the mother and my daughter, hes powers are that he will say where the child will live and for how many days a week to each parent , but this order is only a temporarily order till the criminal case or the divorce case gets to court and can be in a position to make a judgement on everything,

Thai courts can react quickly indeed when they want; The step sister is due in court but I understand it to be a criminal court hearing. But your lawyer says that a temporary custody order will be given out. This is a procedure that Ive never heard of but never mind, your lawyer has done a good job this far so I'm not going to argue. There is simply something here I don't know

The judge wants to see you, the mother and the daughter, to determine what happened after the abduction, yes, and I suppose input for temporary custody decision. The mother will be put under pressure (by step sister and relatives) to come, I dont think she will let the daughter come too though, sorry Scott. I do hope you will be re-united with your daughter soon but I dont think it will be in the court room. See it from the bright side, it wont be that long until you will and court is probably not the best place anyway. 9-year-old children are so easily misled or brain-washed too

The step sisters only choice to (in the end) clear herself from abduction changes should still be to say that the did it on behalf of the mother or the mother came and took the child before she could give the child back. She has a lawyer now so I bet that is what the lawyer will tell her to say regardless of its true or not. She will go to jail if she doesnt. That doesnt make her entirely guilt free, she should have notified you but she did not. If the mother confirms this happened, then the step sister will probably only get a thousand bath penalty or so, no jail. No compensation (legally) possible in criminal cases

Your lawyer says that there will be a temporary custody decision, I like this. I recommend that you are the calm father always caring and worrying about your childs best. Everything to take care of the child is already prepared of course. Ask the lawyer to brief you in how to behave in a Thai court, very! Important. Push that the child was/is denied education, and of course that the mother has been nowhere to be seen and you have taken care of the child yourself for the last 2 years. That should be serious enough to get a temporary custody order in your favour. Quite a victory. The mother will not be popular if she disregards a court order regarding temporary custody

Soon, Soon, hang in there

thank you for putting my thoughts into words , and agree everything you said, for me the point of law re half sister is where was the mother when the order was given, only the mothers passport stamps with tell,

as for me seeing my daughter i feel low , as afer all this, i still dont know anything re where is she, who is taking care, is she going to a school,

the mother is now, almost alone and on the run, re family saying they dont know where she is, and can not go near her , re court case coming,

i find it so hard to believe the half sister saying in front of me the police and my lawyer , that she does not know where my daughter is where the mother is , and no contact phone number for them, surly thats not going to look to good in court,

sorry everyone that i not feeling to great today , i think its the low after the high of finding the half sister,

but thank you all from the bottom of my heart for helping a stranger in need of help.

any news i will post staight away, re the date of the court hearing,

Edited November 8, 2010 by scott1999

[scott1999]

The mother might not take the child with her to court, but to exonerate the stepsister she will have to show up to confirm what the stepsister is telling. And during the judge in the provisional custody hearing can and will order the child to be handed over to the person who gets the custody. Not doing so would mean kidnapping and violating a court order. Not a wise thing to do in any country and it will mean arrest and jail time. Which puts sole custody a little bit closer by.

Indeed, dress and act very respectful and act like a loving father. Don't go on about the mother and certainly avoid a shouting match with her in court.

yet again great advice, many many thanks

[Mario2008]

Interesting reading might be the Thai Child Protection Act of 2003:

http://www.burmalibrary.org/docs07/2003_Child_Protection_Act(en).pdf

[mike123ca]

If the mother had the child kidnapped...

Then she doesn't care about her child or ex-husband.

I do believe she is also very capable of convincing the half sister to get the child and now the half sister will be left

to take the fall.

The wife will claim in court the ex-husband was sexually abusing the child and as a mother it was her duty to

protect her child. I hope the father get's justice from the system.

[scott1999]

now wednesday no news re court date, but i am not worrying to much about that for now, thailand is very different to england in many ways, i am but a guest in this beautiful country, and im very lucky to be able to make a living here, in england no chance for me, to old at 48 ,

time to re focus

the lawyer is now ready and thinks its the right time to take divorce papers to the court, the last paperwork needed by him from me came from my bank yesterday , showing it was from my bank account that paid for the condos in my wifes name.

so onwards and upwards, for me now,

thaivisa is now my home from home, and when this is all finished i hope i can pass on the info i have gained to people in the same boat as me right now,

to many people to thank here on thaivisa right now, but you know who you are,

ps im thinking of doing a time line of events to show the judge, i will do over the weekend and post on here first , to see what you think, and to see if you can find any holes in my take on whats happened,

[Mario2008]

A time line is certainly a good idea to do, it helps you, your lawyer and the judge, to have an overview of what happened and when. And can give a much clearer picture of a situation.

Hang in there!

[scott1999]

A time line is certainly a good idea to do, it helps you, your lawyer and the judge, to have an overview of what happened and when. And can give a much clearer picture of a situation.

Hang in there!

thank you for your comment, its nice to bounce ideas off other people , to see what they think,

[scott1999]

not a good night last night starting to think what the police told me re (with in two weeks there will be a hearing with all the family members and me there, for the judge to decide how many days in a week my daughter will stay with each parent)

from what the british embassy have told me, they have up to 3 months to put a defence into the court.

yet my lawyer and the police are saying there must be a hearing very soon, where the judge has the powers to make sure the child is ok and has the powers to give a temporary order on my daughter,

i must get clarification on this matter , so today i will ring the britsh embassy to contact the officer at the police staion, whos job it is to send the paperwork to the court, for the hearing, to see if 1 he has sent the papers , 2 if he can be clear on what the judges powers are at the said meeting,

ie if the half sister still is saying she does not know where the mother and my daughter is , what can he do about it?

[sarahsbloke]

ie if the half sister still is saying she does not know where the mother and my daughter is , what can he do about it?

No mother in court

Sister gets 5 years in Thai jail for child abduction

[Mario2008]

I think it are two things. You have an emergency session in which the judge will give a temporary order and next there is a normal proceeding in which the judge will give a final judgment.

Regarding the stepsister it is established that she took your child. Her only defense is that she acted under orders of the mother by not returning her to you.

If the judge will believe that will be a matter of evidence, and for that the mother needs to show up. If she doesn't show up, she will not be very convincing.

[scott1999]

ie if the half sister still is saying she does not know where the mother and my daughter is , what can he do about it?

No mother in court

Sister gets 5 years in Thai jail for child abduction

thank you sarahsbloke and mario , for your comments , when im at home just thinking about things , i worry im going crazy, so good to have your feed back,

but its getting to much for me , so off to the doctors tonight, hope he can give me something to sleep better, and slow down my worrying,

all i need is the proof that my daughter is ok,

[MikeyIdea]

Hi Scott,

Don't trust what the British embassy tells you about Thai law, they are known to not know very much actually. Better to ask your Thai lawyer how long the family can "resist" the hearing

with in two weeks there will be a hearing with all the family members and me there, for the judge to decide how many days in a week my daughter will stay with each parent

You should be in a good shape to get temporary 5/2

The child was abducted from you 12 Sep and 13 Sep is a Monday and the child should have been in school. The mother most likely denied your child education from the 13th of Sep until end term, November unknown, the mother also abandoned the child for some 2 years and has only recently remembered that she has a child to take care of too. Ìt would be good if you had evidence of that. Thai immigration will provide that to the court but I doubt the judge will request it, takes time and he may decide it is not worth it. If the mother went to Britain - Can the British Embassy provide you or your lawyer with evidence from their records that the mother was in England when you took care of the child? Makes the case clearer and the same evidence can be used in the non-temporary case. Make it easy for the judge to take a decision

You should (be able to) show enrollment for November too (to show that you have prepared everything for taking care of the child) and your lawyer should demand the mother to provide evidence from the school that she already had enrolled the child in a new school for 13 Sep (... doesn't look too good of a mother to abduct a child but forgetting about arranging school...) and evidence of enrollment for November term. What I point at here is that perhaps the mother has put the child in a school by now, should the judge then give an order that means that the child have to change school? Easier for him to do if you provide evidence that you have prepared everything, that's all

Ask the British embassy representative to be really nice with the policeman (roi wien), he is surprisingly good and deserves respect and gratidude

"ie if the half sister still is saying she does not know where the mother and my daughter is , what can he do about it? "

The step sister will eventually go to jail if the mother does not help her by saying that she acted on her behalf (but it's surely not going to be any 5 years, much much shorter than that). I cannot see the step sister in jail, it simply won't happen, the step sisters relatives will push the mother and she will support her step sister for sure. They have opened up a can of worms they didn't know existed but sooner or later, this will happen. So when?

This is what I think - Decision about temporary custody will surely happen before final decision in the kidnapping case, if the mother decides to play tough and not (dare to?) come to court when summoned, then the judge will (fairly quickly but how quickly?) go ahead and order temporary custody anyway. I can only imagine that he will order the temporary custody to the father in that case. If the mother defy a court order about temporary custody, then that will surely work against her in the non-temporary case. Still, the childs best will be the base for the decision

"what can he do about it?" I understand it as if he (the judge) orders temporary custody then he has already done it. The police can act on that. Mario2008, can you confirm?

I am not clear on if it is going to be the criminal court judge who gives the temporary custody order or if this is some sort of joint effort or if you have 2 sessions.

I firmly believe that the mother will come, to not come is more or less "family suicide"

Something to help you sleep is a good initiative, a good nights sleep will do wonders.

Try and not worry too much, you are in a pretty good shape. Remember that the child is with relatives, there is no reason why they should hurt the child so they will not do that

Michael

Edited November 11, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[Nawtier]

Remember that the child is with relatives, there is no reason why they should hurt the child so they will not do that

Michael

Neglect can be just as harmful.

He has good reason to be worried as anything could be happening, even amongst somewhat caring relatives.

[scott1999]

Hi Scott,

Don't trust what the British embassy tells you about Thai law, they are known to not know very much actually. Better to ask your Thai lawyer how long the family can "resist" the hearing

with in two weeks there will be a hearing with all the family members and me there, for the judge to decide how many days in a week my daughter will stay with each parent

You should be in a good shape to get temporary 5/2

The child was abducted from you 12 Sep and 13 Sep is a Monday and the child should have been in school. The mother most likely denied your child education from the 13th of Sep until end term, November unknown, the mother also abandoned the child for some 2 years and has only recently remembered that she has a child to take care of too. Ìt would be good if you had evidence of that. Thai immigration will provide that to the court but I doubt the judge will request it, takes time and he may decide it is not worth it. If the mother went to Britain - Can the British Embassy provide you or your lawyer with evidence from their records that the mother was in England when you took care of the child? Makes the case clearer and the same evidence can be used in the non-temporary case. Make it easy for the judge to take a decision

You should (be able to) show enrollment for November too (to show that you have prepared everything for taking care of the child) and your lawyer should demand the mother to provide evidence from the school that she already had enrolled the child in a new school for 13 Sep (... doesn't look too good of a mother to abduct a child but forgetting about arranging school...) and evidence of enrollment for November term. What I point at here is that perhaps the mother has put the child in a school by now, should the judge then give an order that means that the child have to change school? Easier for him to do if you provide evidence that you have prepared everything, that's all

Ask the British embassy representative to be really nice with the policeman (roi wien), he is surprisingly good and deserves respect and gratidude

"ie if the half sister still is saying she does not know where the mother and my daughter is , what can he do about it? "

The step sister will eventually go to jail if the mother does not help her by saying that she acted on her behalf (but it's surely not going to be any 5 years, much much shorter than that). I cannot see the step sister in jail, it simply won't happen, the step sisters relatives will push the mother and she will support her step sister for sure. They have opened up a can of worms they didn't know existed but sooner or later, this will happen. So when?

This is what I think - Decision about temporary custody will surely happen before final decision in the kidnapping case, if the mother decides to play tough and not (dare to?) come to court when summoned, then the judge will (fairly quickly but how quickly?) go ahead and order temporary custody anyway. I can only imagine that he will order the temporary custody to the father in that case. If the mother defy a court order about temporary custody, then that will surely work against her in the non-temporary case. Still, the childs best will be the base for the decision

"what can he do about it?" I understand it as if he (the judge) orders temporary custody then he has already done it. The police can act on that. Mario2008, can you confirm?

I am not clear on if it is going to be the criminal court judge who gives the temporary custody order or if this is some sort of joint effort or if you have 2 sessions.

I firmly believe that the mother will come, to not come is more or less "family suicide"

Something to help you sleep is a good initiative, a good nights sleep will do wonders.

Try and not worry too much, you are in a pretty good shape. Remember that the child is with relatives, there is no reason why they should hurt the child so they will not do that

Michael

thank you so much , i am in your debt sir, thank you for the help. i am sending you and mario the draft of the time line, the time line is parts of letters i have sent to the police or embassies or my lawyer,

[scott1999]

Remember that the child is with relatives, there is no reason why they should hurt the child so they will not do that

Michael

Neglect can be just as harmful.

He has good reason to be worried as anything could be happening, even amongst somewhat caring relatives.

thanks for you comments this is how i feel its the not knowing, thats doing me in, and the thought of my daughter not knowing what the hel_l is going on, off to the doctors for me tonight,

Edited November 11, 2010 by scott1999

[BasementCat]

Regarding the stepsister it is established that she took your child. Her only defense is that she acted under orders of the mother by not returning her to you.

If the judge will believe that will be a matter of evidence, and for that the mother needs to show up. If she doesn't show up, she will not be very convincing.

What if stepsister's lawyer presents to the court a letter from the mother, confirming her instructions for sis to take the girl away from Dad? Could it work, so that the mother didn't have to appear before the judge? Could she say that the child is sick and she is looking after her, therefore can not come to the court (etc.)?

[MikeyIdea]

Remember that the child is with relatives, there is no reason why they should hurt the child so they will not do that

Michael

Neglect can be just as harmful.

He has good reason to be worried as anything could be happening, even amongst somewhat caring relatives.

I must say that I don't agree. I would say that by western eyes, most Thais neglect their children in more than one way. Not proper food, not caring about bed times, not enough sleep are a couple of samples. Still, the kids turn out fine. Another important area is the Development of their children and the biggest problem Thailand currently has is not the red shirts or corruption, it's that the working class children are solidly behind most middle class children before they even start school => the middle class is running away from the working class . Now that's neglect. But 99.9999% of those kids turn out just fine as adults anyway. The kids won't be as big as western kids, they won't be as disciplined, they won't have as much knowledge and they certainly won't know how to use the knowledge they have as well. But still, they are just fine - and they are happy. And it takes years and years to shape them into what they are

Don't worry about neglect Scott, the relatively short time we are talking about here still feels like a life time for you, I know, but it's way too short to cause any permanent damage. I still firmly believe that the relatives will not hurt your child, why on earth should they???

Sleep Well

[Mario2008]

If the father has temporary custody than, unless the judge rules otherwise, the father decides the place where the child stays. Acting against the wish of the father would be a criminal offense, even if it is the mother.

It is up to the judge to weigh the evidence and who to believe, but a letter from the mother is not sworn testemoney. For that she will have to appear in court and answer questions under oath.

[scott1999]

If the father has temporary custody than, unless the judge rules otherwise, the father decides the place where the child stays. Acting against the wish of the father would be a criminal offense, even if it is the mother.

It is up to the judge to weigh the evidence and who to believe, but a letter from the mother is not sworn testemoney. For that she will have to appear in court and answer questions under oath.

i like this, and good morning i slept better last night went to the doctors and got some pills, im not a great lover of pills but needs must at the moment,

yesterday the embassy tried to ring the police office but no joy, i have spoken to my lawyer and he will try to ring today aswell for clarification of when the hearing will be. if no joy again i will have to ask the lawyer to come with me to see the police, they have done great so far,

the lawyer is now ready to start divorce and will go to the juvenile court for the emergency order to find my daughter, time scale for the juvenile court is 3 months, from start to finish i have been told,

so at this moment in time have the criminal action , with the hope of a hearing very soon, where a judge can make an order, and

with the juvenile court starting its procedure, so i hope the criminal court can help, but i know that in three months this should all be over for me, fingers crossed.

[Nawtier]

I must say that I don't agree.

Sleep Well

I believe I read that the mother abandoned the child for 2 years...with that history alone I would be extremely worried about neglect.

Does she drink ? is she a drunk ? does she take drugs at all ?

Regardless...she ducks out and leaves the child with a somewhat responsible adult, uncle, friend whatever...how do you know the child is safe with strangers if that actuall occurs....anything is possible in this case because the mother has already abandoned the child before.

Crazy not to be worried about something happening to the child in any such case.

I certainly would be in the same situation and I would leave no stone unturned to get the child back asap to reduce that exposure period.

[scott1999]

I believe I read that the mother abandoned the child for 2 years...with that history alone I would be extremely worried about neglect.

Does she drink ? is she a drunk ? does she take drugs at all ?

Regardless...she ducks out and leaves the child with a somewhat responsible adult, uncle, friend whatever...how do you know the child is safe with strangers if that actuall occurs....anything is possible in this case because the mother has already abandoned the child before.

Crazy not to be worried about something happening to the child in any such case.

I certainly would be in the same situation and I would leave no stone unturned to get the child back asap to reduce that exposure period.

thanks for your coments ,

i am having a hard time dealing with the fears, but i hope and pray my daughter is ok, this seems to be very much against thai culture , re not letting the father see his children, but i think the mother can not understand how far i have come in thailand. re i have a workpermit i have a good job, i have many people willing to come to court on my behalf my daughters grades were getting so much better, she was happy at school and home, as for me i dont drink now , over 20 years with the help of bill w , still go to meetings when i can, work hard, i like to fix my old car up, when i have time, like to cook, like to watch tv, thats about me right now, older then my years me thinks,

ok me and the wife are getting a divorce , but is there any need for all this, i have no idea what the wife was or is thinking, how this is in the best interests of my daughter,

Edited November 12, 2010 by scott1999

[Nawtier]

I did not post that you put more fear into you...I have no doubt you do not need anyone to help you with that.

but others should not be so free and easy thinking either.....things do and can happen. I certainly hope nothing does and those fears you have is what is driving you with haste. Live of them and make them work in your favour as no matter what someone says about there is no fear of this or that, it will not make you feel better at the end of the day.

[scott1999]

I did not post that you put more fear into you...I have no doubt you do not need anyone to help you with that.

I certainly hope nothing does and those fears you have is what is driving you with haste.

Live with them and make them work in your favour ,

i have taken this to heart and will use this quote , thank you Nawtier for your reply,

Edited November 13, 2010 by scott1999