Debit Card Fraud Farce

[monkeymagic77]

I am posting here to see if anyone has any advice on a problem I have regarding debit card fraud in Thailand. I have seen other topics on the subject but none are the same as my case.

I recently lost my K-Bank debit card when pickpocketed in Bangkok, as soon as I realised I lost the card I went to my local branch and canceled the card. When the bank checked my account over 90,000 Baht had been taken through 7 direct debit tansactions. I reported the incident to the police and the bank gave me a list of addresses for the vendors, as it turned out one vendor was a goldshop which made 5 transactions in 30 mins for over 80,000 Baht.

I went to the goldshop with a Thai friend and local police man. The goldshop owners seemed pretty dodgy and it got strange when they produced the receipts and I found out what hapened:

- the customer told the owner this is NOT my card but my boyfriends card, can I sill use it? (sure baby!)

- the customer signed their own name (not a copy of my sig), wrote their Thai ID number on all 5 receipts and their address on 2 receipts - I have copies of all including the ID card (which the police verifed as a real card - altough maybe it wasnt the cutomers card, only the goldshop owners know)

- the CTTV camera in the shop was broken and hanging by wires, although they told my friend they only record 24 hours then tape over - the owners were very flustered and admitted this was bad for them.

I got another report from the police and submited that and all my photocopies etc to K-Bank, within 2 days the bank had passed to the police and made it a criminal case against the Goldshop (not the customer).

Even though this seems very clear cut I keep getting told I probably wont get any money back. I spoke with a farang lawyer based in Bangkok and he was all doom and gloom, he wasnt too sure but reckoned I wouldnt get the money back, but then he had an after thought - in theory the transaction is not complete, the money has been deducted from my account but there is a 30 -60 day period until the bank release the money - the bank reported to the police 4 days after it happened. In theory the money is in limbo (aka the banks pockets)

I am fully aware that getting money back off the banks here can be almost impossible although my companies contacts within the bank speeded the process up alot and 2 bank officers both told me if fraud can be proven they are pretty sure i will get the money back. If anyone had information on the following I would be very grateful:

- are the police more likely to act sinse the complaint has been raised by the bank and not me personally?

- if the police ignor the case can the goldshop still demand their money from the bank based on their dodgy receipts?

- could a situaton arise where the bank doesnt pay the vendor and also dosnt pay me back either (the lawyer said it has happened before)?

Some of my Thai and farang colleagues cant believe how stupid the thief and the goldshop owner have been, but still they doubt it will be enough to help me.

Any advice would be welcome, altough if I was a betting man I am sure I would lose more money betting on getting anything back!

Regards,

[Spoonman]

Direct debit transactions or acutal eftpos/atm transactions ??

A direct debit would have alerted you by SMS, an ATM/Eftpos would require a pin number.

Either way why would someone need to sign for a debit card transaction ??

Something not right with this.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Spoonman

[KunMatt]

5 sequential transactions, at the same goldshop, with a debit card that didn't belong to the customer?? Surely the goldshop owner would not be that stupid, because just look how easy it was for you to find his shop and the transactions he authorised.

In the UK you could be sure that he would not get away with this when presented with the circumstances and evidence, but here you wonder what, or who, they know to be able to think they get away with this kind of blatent fraud.

Good luck. I hope you get justice. Let us know of the outcome.

[monkeymagic77]

Direct debit transactions or acutal eftpos/atm transactions ??

A direct debit would have alerted you by SMS, an ATM/Eftpos would require a pin number.

Either way why would someone need to sign for a debit card transaction ??

Something not right with this.

Thanks for your reply.

It was a direct debit transaction (Visa Plus), I didnt receive one sms despite the 7 transactions and some of my Thai colleagues told me they have had cards blocked before when trying to make over 2 or 3 transactions a day.

The transaction was made via one of the little machines in the shop where they swipe and you sign. The bank told me usually they never get to view the receipts unless there is a complaint.

Everyone who has heard about this says it just doesnt make sense, a police lieutenant who looked at the photocopy with the 5 receipts said it was ridiculous and said the bank cant accept this.

[Spoonman]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

[tolsti]

Advice?....change boyfriend.

[britmaveric]

Well if ATM card has a visa logo, then works same as credit card as far as signature but it direct debits from your account.

Edited October 20, 2010 by britmaveric

[tartempion]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

eftops machine need PIN code isn't?

Do you have the Pin code next to the debit card in your wallet?

[Spoonman]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

eftops machine need PIN code isn't?

Do you have the Pin code next to the debit card in your wallet?

Yeah I mentioned above the need for a pin with a debit card (actual credit card on some no, like mine for instance, I need to sign for the purchase) used with an eftpos machine, any idiot who keeps their pin in their wallet with the card deserves to be stooged.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Spoonman

[griser]

Handle it the thai way, tell the gold shop owner you are going to press charges if he doesn't hand over the money.

Simple

Greg

[monkeymagic77]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

Sorry I used the wrong term, It was an eftpos transaction, I have always refered to them as direct debit.

The cards from K-Bank dont have chip and pin like the UK, they actualy dont even put your name on the card only the words "Privileged Member" something I never liked I would rather wait a few days and have your name stamped on it like the UK. They have your sig on the back but it is a common observation that staff in oultets dont look at the sig a majority of the time.

It certainly stinks, but probably not enough to do me any good.

[Crossy]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

eftops machine need PIN code isn't?

Do you have the Pin code next to the debit card in your wallet?

Yeah I mentioned above the need for a pin with a debit card (actual credit card on some no, like mine for instance, I need to sign for the purchase) used with an eftpos machine, any idiot who keeps their pin in their wallet with the card deserves to be stooged.

The problem is a nasty little button marked 'PIN Bypass' (look for it next time you use an eftpos machine) which seems to get pressed with worrying regularity here.

Pressing this button allows the transaction to complete without entry of the PIN. Why this function is included I really don't know, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been asked to key my PIN (both of my Thai debit card or my UK credit card both of which are chip-and-pin).

Even after entering the PIN you are still expected to sign the receipt.

[elkangorito]

In Australia, ALL eftpos (debit) transactions require a PIN. They NEVER require a signature. This has been the case for over 10 years in Australia.

It appears that Thailand has some work to do BEFORE they get close to being considered a 2nd world country.

I will not use any eftpos (debit) unless I use my PIN. I will refuse to sign any document on a DEBIT payment (fear of forged signature).

[monkeymagic77]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

eftops machine need PIN code isn't?

Do you have the Pin code next to the debit card in your wallet?

Yeah I mentioned above the need for a pin with a debit card (actual credit card on some no, like mine for instance, I need to sign for the purchase) used with an eftpos machine, any idiot who keeps their pin in their wallet with the card deserves to be stooged.

The problem is a nasty little button marked 'PIN Bypass' (look for it next time you use an eftpos machine) which seems to get pressed with worrying regularity here.

Pressing this button allows the transaction to complete without entry of the PIN. Why this function is included I really don't know, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been asked to key my PIN (both of my Thai debit card or my UK credit card both of which are chip-and-pin).

Even after entering the PIN you are still expected to sign the receipt.

Thanks for the information, I had been wishing the card did have a chip but guess they could have got round that. The lawyer told me some horrific stories of the card frauds he has witnessed here, all his have minimal limits per day, my replacement card still has no chip but it is blocked and only for ATM use.

[craigt3365]

Wow...crazy story. In the US, you would have no worries at all. Complete fraud. I had my credit card stolen 2 times and they were ran up to the limit in one day...10,000 USD! Sucked trying to rent a car at an airport only to find out your card is blocked. And shocking to call the bank only to find out your card is maxed out!

Please keep us updated as to what happens. I'm sure most of us would love to know what happens. I have the Be1st card from Bangkok Bank with the chip. But I rarely use it other than as an ATM card. I never use my credit card here. This makes me think I should keep a smaller balance in my account with this card?????

Best of luck....

[theoldgit]

The cards from K-Bank dont have chip and pin like the UK, they actualy dont even put your name on the card only the words "Privileged Member" something I never liked I would rather wait a few days and have your name stamped on it like the UK. They have your sig on the back but it is a common observation that staff in oultets dont look at the sig a majority of the time.

It wont help you on this occasion but you can have your name embossed on K-Bank card and even have a card with your photo on it, takes about a week.

Of course this wouldn't even help if the local gold dealer allows a card to be used which clearly doesn't belong to the person presenting it, in the UK the gold dealer would be called a fence.

Surly if the dealer has admitted that hew knew the card didn't belong to the person making the purchase and the signatures didn't match the bank should withhold payment?

[random]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

Every time I use my debit card I sign a receipt, what is so strange about this?

[Spoonman]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

Every time I use my debit card I sign a receipt, what is so strange about this?

The fact that every time I use my K-bank debit card I don't have to sign a receipt.

Do you also use a pin number ??

[Crossy]

Just a note. Bangkok bank cards now have chip and pin.

Yup, and you still sign a receipt as well.

[jfchandler]

This is a good example of why sometimes it may be better to use your home country bank cards here in Thailand, provided you can use one without foreign currency transaction fees...

The U.S., for example, has pretty strong consumer protection laws relating to stolen or fraudulent debit and credit card transactions -- the federal law pretty much limits a person's liability to no more than $50 for debit card fraud as long as you report to the bank within TWO DAYS of becoming aware of the theft/fraud.

By comparison, I can't tell that Thailand has any similar kind of consumer protection laws regarding credit and debit card fraud.

In the past year, I too had my wallet pickpocketed on the BTS, and discovered it within 10 minutes when I went to get off the train, and then called my bank in the U.S. within an hour to report the card theft. Within an hour of the theft, whoever swiped my card did 7 transactions (mostly shoe and eyeglass store purchases) totaling more than $1,000 U.S. (which was the daily limit POS amount on the stolen card).

I had to go and get a copy of a Thai police report, which I then emailed to my bank at their request. And I had to fill out and sign an affidavit form from my bank. Within a week, 100% of the funds fraudulently used were restored to my account by my bank.

Ask yourself, what Thai bank would handle the same situation in a comparable way???? Good luck with that....

PS - All my U.S. VISA and MC-logo bank debit cards support both PIN-based and POS-signature based transactions. Yet in Thailand, I've NEVER encountered any merchant who handled a debit card purchase via the PIN-based transaction. Rather, 100% signature-only based POSs.... And most of the time, the clerk handling the purchase never particularly bothers to look or compare my signature on the purchase slip with the signature on the back of my card, or ask for any kind of supporting ID card.

[bubba1]

The cards from K-Bank dont have chip and pin like the UK, they actualy dont even put your name on the card only the words "Privileged Member" something I never liked I would rather wait a few days and have your name stamped on it like the UK. They have your sig on the back but it is a common observation that staff in oultets dont look at the sig a majority of the time.

It wont help you on this occasion but you can have your name embossed on K-Bank card and even have a card with your photo on it, takes about a week.

is there any charge for this?

[random]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

Every time I use my debit card I sign a receipt, what is so strange about this?

The fact that every time I use my K-bank debit card I don't have to sign a receipt.

Do you also use a pin number ??

no, I always sign, actually I never use my KBank debit, only my scb debit, with kbank i normally use their credit card

[Spoonman]

That little machine in the shop is an eftpos machine, you have a debit card, why the need for a signature ??

Fow what its worth a direct debit is usually done online (internet) from your account to another.

I smell something fishy here.

Every time I use my debit card I sign a receipt, what is so strange about this?

The fact that every time I use my K-bank debit card I don't have to sign a receipt.

Do you also use a pin number ??

no, I always sign, actually I never use my KBank debit, only my scb debit, with kbank i normally use their credit card

Yes when I use my CC I sign as well.

[theoldgit]

The cards from K-Bank dont have chip and pin like the UK, they actualy dont even put your name on the card only the words "Privileged Member" something I never liked I would rather wait a few days and have your name stamped on it like the UK. They have your sig on the back but it is a common observation that staff in oultets dont look at the sig a majority of the time.

It wont help you on this occasion but you can have your name embossed on K-Bank card and even have a card with your photo on it, takes about a week.

is there any charge for this?

For the card with your name on it's the normal card price, I think a couple of hundred Baht, not sure for the photo design but I think about the same - details are on their website.

[Godolphin]

In Australia, ALL eftpos (debit) transactions require a PIN. They NEVER require a signature. This has been the case for over 10 years in Australia.

It appears that Thailand has some work to do BEFORE they get close to being considered a 2nd world country.

I will not use any eftpos (debit) unless I use my PIN. I will refuse to sign any document on a DEBIT payment (fear of forged signature).

Don't think so mate. My credit union debit card is a signature one. I used it today. I live in Melbourne.

[Spoonman]

When I recieved my K-Bank debit card it came with a pin number that I had to change immediately, I was offered no option to have the debit card pinless (requireing a signature instead), how do you peeps have a pinless K-Bank debit card ??

[theoldgit]

When I recieved my K-Bank debit card it came with a pin number that I had to change immediately, I was offered no option to have the debit card pinless (requireing a signature instead), how do you peeps have a pinless K-Bank debit card ??

But surly the PIN is only used when drawing drawing cash from an ATM, whenever I have used my K-Bank card, and my Thai credit card, in places that are chip and pin enabled, such as UK and France, it has defaulted to requiring a signature.

Edited October 22, 2010 by theoldgit

[Spoonman]

When I recieved my K-Bank debit card it came with a pin number that I had to change immediately, I was offered no option to have the debit card pinless (requireing a signature instead), how do you peeps have a pinless K-Bank debit card ??

But surly the PIN is only used when drawing drawing cash from an ATM, whenever I have used my K-Bank card, and my Thai credit card, in places that are chip and pin enabled, such as UK and France, it has defaulted to requiring a signature.

I have used my K-Bank debit both here and in AUS, UK and USA, for either cash ATM withdrawals or eftpos terminal purchases and it always requires my pin number.

When I use my Credit card (K-Bank) in eftpos machines abroad (paying for petrol/purchase groceries etc) the cashier is always surprised I need to sign (as apposed to entering a pin).

[theoldgit]

^^^^

How strange, they seem to have a dual system then, though my debit card doesn't have a chip so I have had to sign every time in the UK and France, oh well as long as it works for both of us.

[Spoonman]

I dont think my deal is stange at all, infact my Thai debit and CC cards mirror in functionality my Australian Debit and CC cards.... I find it odd that the same bank (K-Bank) has two different verification proceedures for the same cards with different owners.