Is My Drinking Behaviour Normal?

[corkman]

Dear all,

I am not an alcoholic, at least not by this forums definitition, but I do think my drinking bahvious is abnormal.

The 3 issues that I feel are not right is:

1. Once I start, I find it hard to stop...... I can't just go for 3 or 4 beers and come home tipsy at 9pm - instead I'll do my utmost to state late and get pissed.

2. When I start, I drink at a heavy pace.

3. I frequently get black-outs / memory loss.

I go out typically once a week..... on ocassion it is twice, and sometimes a month could pass.

I don't get urges for a drink, beyond looking forward to a night out with friends just for "fun".

I do not get abusive, nor do I act silly or do irresponsible things.I appear lucid and relatively "not pissed" to others.

I do not make a nuisance of myself and my friends / colleagues do not avoid me on nights out or anything like that (in fact the oposite is the case).

I don't see my drinking as harmful to myself or others (apart from the fact that drink is not good for you, just like coffee isn't good for you)

I don't drink myself into debt or anything like that.

I think perhaps an example might be good:

I recently went to a function which started at 6pm. I remember everything normally until about 8-9pm. from 9pm - 11pm things are a bit hazy. But from 11-12pm until 2am its about 95% blank...... I got home safely, but I don't remember how, nor do I remember leaving or paying the bill, nor do I remember which bar I went to (we changed places about midnight-ish). I had a really good time..... there was no awkward looks from colleagues the next day, and apart from being tired I had no hangover......

I don't drink at home, I don't have a casual beer after work...... I'd rather a nice glass of freshly squeezed orange juice. I don't tell lies about how much or how often I drink, and while I am not proud of being able to drink quite a lot I am not ashamed either. In short, alcohol does not in any way rule my life......and I do not have a dependence on it (other than as an ocasional antidote to boredom which I think is normal)..... but I am obviously concered since I am posting here.

I honestly answer no to all these questions (from sticky at top of forum):

ALCOHOL ABUSE.

In order for a person to be diagnosed with alcohol abuse, one of the following four criteria must be met. Because of drinking, a person repeatedly:

fails to live up to his or her most important responsibilities - No

physically endangers him- or herself, or others (for example, by drinking when driving) - No

gets into trouble with the law - Never

experiences difficulties in relationships or jobs - The oposite is the case

So, the big question is, does my drinking bahviour sound abnormal? Should I worry about it and if so is there some corrective action that I should take?

I would appreciate any advice or comments that people could offer.

Edited October 24, 2010 by corkman

[rishi]

To cut to the bone, I'd say the one thing to worry about is that you are not in control of your alcohol intake. It may not cause your problem and may not have any impact on your life and situation (at the moment), but that's only because you don't go out that often - if you went out for a beer or two every night, surely - the lack of control would be a major problem, right?

Consider this: In case your life changes - would there be any risk that you would go out for a beer or two more often?

[jdinasia]

Take a look at this.

http://www.alcoholrehab-program.com/alcoholic-self-screening-tests/johns-hopkins-university-drinking-scale/

The OP states his certitude that he is not a normal drinker. He has had blackouts. He can't control his intake once he starts. These are common symptoms in episodic or binge drinkers.

If you are unconvinced about your current status, take it upon yourself to start a drinker's diary. Be honest. Read it back.

I am not going to enter into the debate about what or what does not make someone an alcoholic but according to Johns Hopkins University Hospital the answer would likely be that the OP IS an alcoholic. In the addiction treatment field, blackouts begin in about mid-stage acute alcoholism and continue. That does in fact mean that some people pretty much start out their drinking careers with blackouts and are alcoholics from the very beginning.

I worked in the treatment field for many years. I wasn't compassionate enough to be a counselor, so instead I was the hard guy that enforced the rules. I hated that work

[Mobi]

There is little doubt in my mind that you are an alcoholic, simply by the points you have listed in 1-3. In particular, having blackouts is a sure sign that you have a serious problem that can only get worse.

There are many alcoholics who are 'binge drinkers' i.e. they don't drink every day, but when they do drink, their drinking gets out of control.

You didn't tell us your age, but my guess is that you are probably middle aged. Alcoholism is a progressive disease. the older you get, the worse your illness becomes, and if you don't take some remedial action, the likelihood is that eventually you will start drinking every day. Many heavy drinkers become alcoholics in late middle age.

In my opinion, despite all its faults, the only real help you can find for your problem is within AA. There is much that is good in AA and I am personally convinced that without regular attendance at AA meetings, 99% of alcoholics can never stop drinking on a permanent basis.

Whether you agree you are an alcoholic or not, why not try a few AA meetings? The depth of your drinking problem may become clearer. The only criteria for joining AA is an admittance that you have a problem with alcohol and a desire to stop.

It's worth a try. What have you got to lose?

[corkman]

Hi everyone,

Well thanks to each of you for your thorough and frank replies.

It is of course disturbing for me to read that most of you believe I am already an alcoholic, and I take that very seriously. I suppose the term alcoholic conjours up all sorts of stereotypical images....... for me, alcoholism has always meant "needing" a drink to the point where it is the first priority, regardless of consequence, and then drinking yourself into oblivion to the point of collapse and destituion. I've obviously got to adjust my terms of reference in this regard.

I did the alcoholrehab-program test, and of the 20 questions I answered positively to two - and one of those is only a maybe...... and I answered no to all the "key" questions (6, 8, 10, 11, 19, 20). I was surprised that the "blackout" question was not one of those considered to be sufficient by itself to indicate alcoholism.

In short, my own feeling is that I am not an alcoholic, but I approach the borderline a bit too close for comfort and if I am not careful I could easily lapse into it. I will admit that once I go into a bar I am not in control of my intake (or at least I have very poor control of it most of the time), but I do not feel compelled to go to the pub and I don't drink at home....... The question rishi poses "Consider this: In case your life changes - would there be any risk that you would go out for a beer or two more often?" is very pertinent to this. I think it is apparent that I do have issues, which if not addressed, WILL become a problem later in life. I'm in my mid 30's BTW.

With this in mind, I would propose that I need to take control of the situation by:

(1) Slowing my pace and reducing intake, such that I no longer experience blackouts. A bit of trial and error may be needed, but I think arriving later and leaving earlier, plus keeping track of how many I have and the effect of same would be a good start.

(2) Following on from point 1, I need to discipline myself to recognise my limit and come home at a more appropriate time.

I have taken on board all the points made above, and will impliment my "plan" in conjunction with those. I particualry like jdinasia's suggest to start a "drinkers diary". I think the "binge drinker" point is a good one, and I think I certainly fall into that catagory. I do not know enough about any of this, but I think I would classify myself as a "binge drinker" before I would an alcoholic. That may be one of the same, but in falls more in line with what I consider my situation to be, and I think if I eliminate the term "binge" in "binge drinker" then my behaviour would be closer to normal. I believe that I have taken the first step, posting here and discussing it (which I have never done before), and armed with greater awareness I will be more conscious of my bahviour and feel confident that I will be able to modify behaviour accordingly.

I don't want to take the step to completely give up drink. I have to be honest and say that at this stage I don't think it is entirely necesssary and because of that underlying belief I think if I try and quit drink entirely I'll end up convincing myself it was unecessary and will just revert to the status quo..... nothing will be achieved, and I will just be living in a state of denial. If however, I try to moderate my bahviour and fail, then I will be convinced there is a need to quit entirely and will therefore have more faith in the decision and need to quit.

I would like to add one more question, if I may. When I say I cannot pull myself away from the bar once I start, I don't know is that partly normal behaviour or not. If my wife is there, she normally says "come on, lets go home" - usually because she's getting drunk or tired or has bored of the company...... the response is usually "ok then, one for teh road, and lets go"...... which is what most people say..... and I have one more and happily go home. I do not purposely set out to maximise alcohol intake, its just that I get caught up in the moment and don't want to leave to leave the fun ...... and its not like I am the last to leave, all the others usually hang on for longer. If I didn't like the company or the venue then I'd leave..... but as long as the atmosphere is good and we're having fun than I stay...... so my question is, is it not normal to want to stay if you're having a good time with friends? (this does not mitigate the blackouts).

I would appreciate all of your further comments and opinions.

Thanks once again.

Edited October 25, 2010 by corkman

[StreetCowboy]

Hi everyone,

Well thanks to each of you for your thorough and frank replies.

It is of course disturbing for me to read that most of you believe I am already an alcoholic, and I take that very seriously. I suppose the term alcoholic conjours up all sorts of stereotypical images....... for me, alcoholism has always meant "needing" a drink to the point where it is the first priority, regardless of consequence, and then drinking yourself into oblivion to the point of collapse and destituion. I've obviously got to adjust my terms of reference in this regard.

I did the alcoholrehab-program test, and of the 20 questions I answered positively to two - and one of those is only a maybe...... and I answered no to all the "key" questions (6, 8, 10, 11, 19, 20). I was surprised that the "blackout" question was not one of those considered to be sufficient by itself to indicate alcoholism.

In short, my own feeling is that I am not an alcoholic, but I approach the borderline a bit too close for comfort and if I am not careful I could easily lapse into it. I will admit that once I go into a bar I am not in control of my intake (or at least I have very poor control of it most of the time), but I do not feel compelled to go to the pub and I don't drink at home....... The question rishi poses "Consider this: In case your life changes - would there be any risk that you would go out for a beer or two more often?" is very pertinent to this. I think it is apparent that I do have issues, which if not addressed, WILL become a problem later in life. I'm in my mid 30's BTW.

With this in mind, I would propose that I need to take control of the situation by:

(1) Slowing my pace and reducing intake, such that I no longer experience blackouts. A bit of trial and error may be needed, but I think arriving later and leaving earlier, plus keeping track of how many I have and the effect of same would be a good start.

(2) Following on from point 1, I need to discipline myself to recognise my limit and come home at a more appropriate time.

I have taken on board all the points made above, and will impliment my "plan" in conjunction with those. I particualry like jdinasia's suggest to start a "drinkers diary". I think the "binge drinker" point is a good one, and I think I certainly fall into that catagory. I do not know enough about any of this, but I think I would classify myself as a "binge drinker" before I would an alcoholic. That may be one of the same, but in falls more in line with what I consider my situation to be, and I think if I eliminate the term "binge" in "binge drinker" then my behaviour would be closer to normal. I believe that I have taken the first step, posting here and discussing it (which I have never done before), and armed with greater awareness I will be more conscious of my bahviour and feel confident that I will be able to modify behaviour accordingly.

I don't want to take the step to completely give up drink. I have to be honest and say that at this stage I don't think it is entirely necesssary and because of that underlying belief I think if I try and quit drink entirely I'll end up convincing myself it was unecessary and will just revert to the status quo..... nothing will be achieved, and I will just be living in a state of denial. If however, I try to moderate my bahviour and fail, then I will be convinced there is a need to quit entirely and will therefore have more faith in the decision and need to quit.

I would like to add one more question, if I may. When I say I cannot pull myself away from the bar once I start, I don't know is that partly normal behaviour or not. If my wife is there, she normally says "come on, lets go home" - usually because she's getting drunk or tired or has bored of the company...... the response is usually "ok then, one for teh road, and lets go"...... which is what most people say..... and I have one more and happily go home. I do not purposely set out to maximise alcohol intake, its just that I get caught up in the moment and don't want to leave to leave the fun ...... and its not like I am the last to leave, all the others usually hang on for longer. If I didn't like the company or the venue then I'd leave..... but as long as the atmosphere is good and we're having fun than I stay...... so my question is, is it not normal to want to stay if you're having a good time with friends? (this does not mitigate the blackouts).

I would appreciate all of your further comments and opinions.

Thanks once again.

It all seemed pretty normal to me, a few years ago; then I realised that most people could go home at ten or eleven or midnight, and not stop the taxi en route for another few pints...

Then the beer taxi stopped working, and some nights I didn't get home.

Then I started going for pub lunches at the weekend till 2 am while the family were away.

My recommendation is try to control it as best you can, and then when you know the extent of your control, you'll be ready to try AA; but its probably not worth it yet

SC

[Mobi]

I'm not sure what 20 questions you have been referring to but here is the link to AA's 20 questions:

20 Q's

You will see that the Blackout issue is q.17.

Only you know the true answers to the other 19 q's.

Note that only 1 positive answer suggests you may well be an alcoholic, 2 positives increases this likelihood and 3 or more makes you an alcoholic as far as the AA are concerned.

Reading your posts, there is little doubt in my mind, but you are the one who has to be convinced.

These days there is no shame in admitting you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is recognised by a vast majority of doctors and professionals as a disease.

Some people can drink copious amounts of booze all their life but are not alcoholics - just heavy drinkers.

Others, like me, and I suspect you, are alcoholics. It takes an alcoholic to recognise one and everything you have written, including your protestations that you are probably not one, convinces me that you probably are.

But it is good that you are worrying about it and it is good that you want to take steps to do something about it.

As I said in my earlier post, you will lose nothing by attending a few AA meetings and it may help you to determine one way or another if you have a serious problem.

Good luck

[corkman]

It all seemed pretty normal to me, a few years ago; then I realised that most people could go home at ten or eleven or midnight, and not stop the taxi en route for another few pints...

Then the beer taxi stopped working, and some nights I didn't get home.

Then I started going for pub lunches at the weekend till 2 am while the family were away.

My recommendation is try to control it as best you can, and then when you know the extent of your control, you'll be ready to try AA; but its probably not worth it yet

SC

Thanks for that - now that you mention it, I have once or twice left to go home, and then stopped off for one more elsewhere...... but I have never gone as far as to stop the taxi..... but in principle it might be similar, and is extremely worth noting.

Yes, I am inclined toward your recommendation. I have never consciously tried to "control" myself..... and were it not for the back out incidents, I wouldn't be concerned now either. But if I try to control myself and cannot, then in mind the seriousness of the situation will go from a possible concern to a definite and serious worry.

THanks for your input.

[corkman]

I'm not sure what 20 questions you have been referring to but here is the link to AA's 20 questions:

20 Q's

You will see that the Blackout issue is q.17.

Only you know the true answers to the other 19 q's.

Note that only 1 positive answer suggests you may well be an alcoholic, 2 positives increases this likelihood and 3 or more makes you an alcoholic as far as the AA are concerned.

Reading your posts, there is little doubt in my mind, but you are the one who has to be convinced.

These days there is no shame in admitting you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is recognised by a vast majority of doctors and professionals as a disease.

Some people can drink copious amounts of booze all their life but are not alcoholics - just heavy drinkers.

Others, like me, and I suspect you, are alcoholics. It takes an alcoholic to recognise one and everything you have written, including your protestations that you are probably not one, convinces me that you probably are.

But it is good that you are worrying about it and it is good that you want to take steps to do something about it.

As I said in my earlier post, you will lose nothing by attending a few AA meetings and it may help you to determine one way or another if you have a serious problem.

Good luck

Hi Mobi,

Yes, they are the 20Q's. I'm being honest with myself regarding all 20 of them. The two I answer yes to are the blackout Q and the other one is the "do you neglect your fmaily resposnbility" one..... and that's only a maybe in so far if I am getting that pissed and something happened to me, then who would look after my family...... I have been gauging my score on the basis of the link that jdinasia provided (http://www.alcoholre...drinking-scale/).

If I am indeed an alcoholic, then I am..... whether I caused that condition or whether I was born with it could be a never ending debate...... but cause is irrelevent so long as the cure is effective sort of thing..... if I am, then I am, and I will deal with it...... but in certain repsects society has become hyper sensitive and I do not want to be an alarmist making life changing decisions on the basis of something that I am neither sure not convinced about. For me, personally, I see no shame in admitting you are an alcoholic - on the contrary I find it quite an honourable thing to admit you have a problem and have the courage to deal with it..... but none-the-less there is a stigma attached to it, and like it or not the reality is that the "title" would bring shame to my loved ones...... that for me would be the hurdle, not admitting it to myself but admitting it to others......

"Some people can drink copious amounts of booze all their life but are not alcoholics - just heavy drinkers." - I am undecided whether that is me or not, but the blackouts are of concern. My own father is a heavy drinker, but I believe him to be an alcoholic - he is of course in full denial about it..... but if asked to go for a day without a drink (unless there is a very good reason for it) he will not..... his reply is that he has worked his entire life and deserves to enjoy is retirement..... however he drinks enough to get drunk every day, and I believe he "needs" it. I am no where near at that level, and can never see myself getting there either. He sits alone, content, getting slowly pissed, every day...... it is clearly not healthy or normal ...... I honestly have never sat down, at home, alone, and cracked open a can, bottle, or otherwise..... and can never see myself doing it. I know some friends who do it....... but I don't, not our of fear of "what I'll become" but just because it does not appeal to me.

I completely take on board all your points however, and you are obviously knowledgeable in the area...... however I feel it premature to consider AA just yet, as per my previous post in reply to StreetCowboy. I want to see can I take control, drink sensibly and in moderation, and if I struggle to do that then indeed its time for more serous and decisive action. To be hoenst, I feel in myself, that I just need to "cop on" (be sensbile) and take some responsiblity as a father and a husband...... I am no longer foot loose and fancy free, no longer the eligible bachelor with the world at my feet, and no longer a 20-something with time and money to burn...... I think I do not believe I am an alcoholic because I do not feel compelled to drink, and I only do it socially - not just for the sake of it..... perhaps I am wrong in that belief???

In your opinion, based on what you have read, and your own feeling for the the matter..... am I at the stage that I should just quit drinking outright, or is it sufficient to just generally avoid going to the pub and when I do go try to excerise restraint and sensiblity?

Many thanks for your multiple detailed replies!

[StreetCowboy]

It's never too early to stop - or at least take a break.

I formed the opinion that my drinking was making my drinking worse - in other words, that the more I drank, the less I was able to control my drinking, and therefore by not drinking for days or weeks or months now, I was extending the time I could drink when I was older; I don't know if that is true or not, but it was maybe a useful tool in helping me to abstain for a while.

And I took the view that every night I spent in Starbucks instead of the tavern was a thousand baht or two saved, and a little bit less damage on my liver.

SC

[onnut]

Hi Corkman,

you sound very much like me in many ways. I used to drink like that and could not remember the last parts nor getting home. I never got into trouble and never had any problems. how I fixed it was eating before I went out drinking, not so I was full but something that can soak up the booze. also drinking a glass of water every now and then.

Never had any problems since, except last week when I never ate and I mixed my drinks too much. I got home ok and never had any problems except with the wife and the head the next day!!!!!

I can only have the 1 beer though, or can go home at a certain time when drinking, thats not a problem for me. the thing is when I arrange to meet some guys, it can go on all night and even has lasted until 7am the next day on a mates patio with whatever we can find in the house, wine whisky and beers! these nights are the best ones I think.

Try my trick of eating something that can soak up the booze, bread is the best for me.

and to answer your question, NO I do not think you have a drinking problem.

[onnut]

These qustions are crap, and very old, I do not believe if you answer yes to one or two that you are an alcoholic!

1. Do you lose time from work due to your drinking? I part own a bar/restaurant, so some nights I have a drink with friends/customers

2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy? only when I get home legless and upset my wife at the time, next day always ok though

3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people? NO

4. Is drinking affecting your reputation? NO

5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking? Yes, only because ive said something stupid

6. Have you gotten into financial difficulties as a result of your drinking? NO

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking? NO

8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare? NO

9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking? NO

10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily? somedays, I really feel like a beer after work

11. Do you want a drink the next morning? couldnt think of anything worse

12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping? NO, most cases it helps

13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking? NO

14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business? No, probably helps by having a drink with the customers

15. Do you drink to escape from worries or troubles? NO

16. Do you drink alone? NO, but do like a beer while talking to my sister late at night, and cigarette on the terrace!

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of your drinking? yes, cannot remember getting home!

18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking? NO

19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence? NO

<FONT size=2 face=Verdana>20. Have you ever been in a hospital or institution on account of drinking? Yes, fell down some steps and needed stitches!

I have answered honestly, and said yes to some! but I am not an alcoholic at all. I like to go for a beer 2-3 times a month with friends and sometimes it ends up in a good session, others I take a taxi and go home.

These questions need updating I think, as they are from the 30s!!!!!!!!

[PokerFace]

I have been clean and sober for over 26 years. I cannot tell you if you have a problem or not, only you can decide that. I will say that you can forget all the tests and advice from your friends. If you think you have a problem you probably do. Find a good AA meeting and force yourself to go.

[britmaveric]

Blackouts are very dangerous and yes you do have a problem if you are getting in such a state that you can't remember and you are unable to control your drinking when you start.

[Mobi]

These qustions are crap, and very old, I do not believe if you answer yes to one or two that you are an alcoholic!

I think it is very foolish to say they are crap.

Of course there is no hard and fast rule to say if your answers to 2, 3, 4 or more questions is 'yes' then you are an alcoholic, but to dismiss them in such a derisory manner is, with all due respect, also crap.

Everyone is different and none of us fit into neat pigeon holes - least of all alcoholics and problem drinkers, but by looking at the issues raised by the questions, many of us can see if we may have a problem, as most, but not all alcoholics have similar behavioural characteristics which become more and more obvious as we get older.

Many alcoholics lose their families, end up penniless, in the gutter or in prison, but countess more never reach that low. Many continue to maintain a reasonable quality of life for themselves and their families and hold onto their jobs for years, but it doesn't make them any less alcoholics.

The 20 questions are a rough and ready guide, and certainly if you are answering 'yes' to more than you are answering no then you are probably an alcoholic. If you are only answering 1 or 2 as 'yes', then the chances are you are not an alcoholic, but you still could be a border line case that in the full course of time may well turn into one.

I have seriously been fighting alcoholism for around 3 years now, and I am a long way from being a recovering alcoholic. Yet there are periods when I do not drink, and when I go to a bar and order a Coke, there is more than one regular who will tell me that they don't know how I can do it. they say they could never go one day without a drink.

Does that mean they are alcoholics and I am not? Maybe - but I doubt it. I know what I am, I'm not sure they know what they are.

It is a very difficult and complex subject and there are no hard and fast rules in this. Many alcoholics also have other problems, such as depression which will contribute to their disease. It is also a feature of many alcoholics that they have had had traumatic childhoods - many from broken homes or suffered abuse as a child.

To the OP I would say that you must make up your own mind in your own time and in your own way. If you do not believe you are an alcoholic then that may well be the case, as you appear to be very open and honest in your self assessment.

It certainly sounds as though your father is a fully blown alcoholic, and please bear in mind that alcoholism often runs in families.

I am also very concerned about your blackouts. I drank heavily all my life but it was only after I turned 60 that I started to experience blackouts. Everyone has different tolerance levels and it sounds as though yours might be quite low.

A simple test will be for you to refrain from alcohol for a few weeks and see how you get on. If you have a yearning that won't go away, and if you break your abstinence with a big binge, then I'm afraid you have a problem.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[onnut]

These qustions are crap, and very old, I do not believe if you answer yes to one or two that you are an alcoholic!

I think it is very foolish to say they are crap.

Of course there is no hard and fast rule to say if your answers to 2, 3, 4 or more questions is 'yes' then you are an alcoholic, but to dismiss them in such a derisory manner is, with all due respect, also crap.

Everyone is different and none of us fit into neat pigeon holes - least of all alcoholics and problem drinkers, but by looking at the issues raised by the questions, many of us can see if we may have a problem, as most, but not all alcoholics have similar behavioural characteristics which become more and more obvious as we get older.

Many alcoholics lose their families, end up penniless, in the gutter or in prison, but countess more never reach that low. Many continue to maintain a reasonable quality of life for themselves and their families and hold onto their jobs for years, but it doesn't make them any less alcoholics.

The 20 questions are a rough and ready guide, and certainly if you are answering 'yes' to more than you are answering no then you are probably an alcoholic. If you are only answering 1 or 2 as 'yes', then the chances are you are not an alcoholic, but you still could be a border line case that in the full course of time may well turn into one.

I have seriously been fighting alcoholism for around 3 years now, and I am a long way from being a recovering alcoholic. Yet there are periods when I do not drink, and when I go to a bar and order a Coke, there is more than one regular who will tell me that they don't know how I can do it. they say they could never go one day without a drink.

Does that mean they are alcoholics and I am not? Maybe - but I doubt it. I know what I am, I'm not sure they know what they are.

It is a very difficult and complex subject and there are no hard and fast rules in this. Many alcoholics also have other problems, such as depression which will contribute to their disease. It is also a feature of many alcoholics that they have had had traumatic childhoods - many from broken homes or suffered abuse as a child.

Hi Mobi,

Nice Blogg, If you say they are not crap, then I will respect your thoughts on it as you have the experience. but from my point of view I do not agree with all of them and do still think they are crap. IF a person really believes he/she has a drink problem but they have not, just a little weak or believe what others say, they would be able to answer yes to most them if they really wanted to.

yes my family has been effected, because my wife doesnt drink she doesnt like it when I come home drunk!

yes I did feel remorse for something I did the night before, probably pulling a moony or saying something stupid, we all do that when drunk. kiss an ugly women, whatever.

yes I have got into financial difficulties through drinking, my ATM card didnt work so borrowed 4K from a friend until the next time I saw him.

these in my mind are just 3 questions I have answered yes too, I am not an alcoholic but if I was very worried about being one because of whatever reason and I answered yes to these I may well start thinking I do have a problem! Do you understand what I am trying to say? I am not very good at expressing myself sometimes!

of course, if you could answer all of them everytime you went out drinking then I think its safe to say there is a problem.

[britmaveric]

^well think lot of us could of answered yes on a few questions - least in the uni days. Normally get wiser when we age so to speak.

[Mobi]

Hi Mobi,

Nice Blogg, If you say they are not crap, then I will respect your thoughts on it as you have the experience. but from my point of view I do not agree with all of them and do still think they are crap. IF a person really believes he/she has a drink problem but they have not, just a little weak or believe what others say, they would be able to answer yes to most them if they really wanted to.

yes my family has been effected, because my wife doesnt drink she doesnt like it when I come home drunk!

yes I did feel remorse for something I did the night before, probably pulling a moony or saying something stupid, we all do that when drunk. kiss an ugly women, whatever.

yes I have got into financial difficulties through drinking, my ATM card didnt work so borrowed 4K from a friend until the next time I saw him.

these in my mind are just 3 questions I have answered yes too, I am not an alcoholic but if I was very worried about being one because of whatever reason and I answered yes to these I may well start thinking I do have a problem! Do you understand what I am trying to say? I am not very good at expressing myself sometimes!

of course, if you could answer all of them everytime you went out drinking then I think its safe to say there is a problem.

Thank you for polite reply and I see where you are coming from.

However, again with the greatest respect, I believe you are deliberately being somewhat obtuse.

let's take the 3 questions you answered 'yes' to.

1. Is drinking making your home life unhappy?. This clearly refers to serious and repeated problems within the immediate family which are can be directly attributed to excess drinking.

Examples would be temper tantrums; frequent shouting at the wife and/or kids, even possibly violence towards them. This is the sort of situation the question is trying to establish. Not the occasional 'domestic' because you come home a bit pissed. Most drinking men do that once in a while and there are usually few, if any, long term repercussions. However if this was happening on a regular basis - say 2-3 times per week, and the wife was becoming increasingly upset by this behaviour, then it would clearly indicate a drinking problem.

2. Feeling remorse for the night before. This isn't referring to someone overdoing the fun and doing a 'moonie' or in some other way making a bit of a fool of themselves.

This is referring doing some kind of serious shit when drunk - like getting into a physical fight with either friends or strangers; making a complete arsehol_e of yourself to the point where your friends disown you, or you are thrown out of the bar etc etc.

3.Financial difficulties through drinking. Again we are not talking about borrowing some money from a mate as you ran out of ready cash when you were out and about. We are talking serious financial difficulties, like racking up large debts, inability to pay the rent or household expenses due to spending too much of your disposable income in the pubs and bars.

It doesn't take much nous to understand where these questions are coming from, and I think you know very well that the background of your 3 'yes's' are not of the nature that would in any way suggest you are an alcoholic.

However there is an element of "methinks thou doest protest too much" in your posts. Maybe you are more concerned that you let on, but like so many before you, you will be in denial till your dying day.

Only you know that.

Take care.

[onnut]

Hi Mobi,

I cant argue with that post!

good luck to you, you sound like you are coping well. I never have really thought about myself having a problem as I do not drink that often, sometimes when I drink I go on an all night bender but that is twice a year if that, the rest of the times I am home in bed by 1am and that is starting at 9-10 pm so not a big one. and these are only 2-3 times a month. and then the odd beer after work which could be 2 times a week. max two beers!

Good luck to you and take care also. :jap:

[corkman]

Well guys, thanks for all the replies since my last post. I won’t try to reply to each individual point from the 10 or so that precede.

Suffice it to say that I feel much better in myself having discussed this, openly, and have received many opinions. I am generally a pretty well grounded individual, capable to differentiating between what applies to me, and what I would like to apply to me – so I feel I have been able to take a lot from this discussion, and armed with a little better insight, a much greater awareness, and a willingness to implement some changes, then I think I am well positioned to sort out my issues and not let them take over my life.

I have resolved to avoid all but absolutely necessary pub-related events (there is an obligation in my job to do quite a lot of “networking”), and when I do attend I am setting myself a curfew of 10pm. That seems to be the point at which I get fuzzy, so it seems to be a good place to start. I am further going to moderate my intake. Socially, I am going to purposely avoid going to the pub for a while, as one poster suggested – primarily as a means of testing discipline, and if I go for dinner with the Mrs. or something to that effect, I will abstain from order wine or beer and stick with the sprite

Whether I am, or am not an alcoholic, these steps are all positive life changes that can only have positive health benefits. I do not have any socio-behavioral problems (I would know, believe me, the wife would say it!) but positive changes in nay part of ones life can only lead to improved happiness, right? It’s good to hear that other people have similar “problems” and it’s also good to relate with people that have much more significant ones’, and the anecdotes are perhaps the best and most tangible warnings of what “could” happen if I don’t take some (relatively minor) action now. It’s informative to see the various stages of how alcohol begins to take control of peoples life’s and it’s easy for me to see that I am one step away from the abyss, so I’ve got to be very careful to take a few steps back, and NONE forward!

So, as I say, I feel a lot happier in myself because I feel I have a better picture of the “skeleton in my closet” and feel less afraid of what it “might” be. I feel more confident that it is something I can sort out without taking drastic measures or making fundamental life changes, and surely taking away a positive outlook from this discussion is better than a negative one.

So thank you all for your contribution.

BTW - ’m not “signing off” on the thread, just summarizing and thanking, and setting out a road map J

[rgs2001uk]

These qustions are crap, and very old, I do not believe if you answer yes to one or two that you are an alcoholic!

1. Do you lose time from work due to your drinking? I part own a bar/restaurant, so some nights I have a drink with friends/customers

2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy? only when I get home legless and upset my wife at the time, next day always ok though

3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people? NO

4. Is drinking affecting your reputation? NO

5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking? Yes, only because ive said something stupid

6. Have you gotten into financial difficulties as a result of your drinking? NO

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking? NO

8. Does your drinking make you careless of your family's welfare? NO

9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking? NO

10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily? somedays, I really feel like a beer after work

11. Do you want a drink the next morning? couldnt think of anything worse

12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping? NO, most cases it helps

13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking? NO

14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business? No, probably helps by having a drink with the customers

15. Do you drink to escape from worries or troubles? NO

16. Do you drink alone? NO, but do like a beer while talking to my sister late at night, and cigarette on the terrace!

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of your drinking? yes, cannot remember getting home!

18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking? NO

19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence? NO

<FONT size=2 face=Verdana>20. Have you ever been in a hospital or institution on account of drinking? Yes, fell down some steps and needed stitches!

I have answered honestly, and said yes to some! but I am not an alcoholic at all. I like to go for a beer 2-3 times a month with friends and sometimes it ends up in a good session, others I take a taxi and go home.

These questions need updating I think, as they are from the 30s!!!!!!!!

I am with onnut on this one, I can think of at least 3 questions that haven't been asked, may be the person who wrote the questionnaire has never experienced the following,

have you ever drunk yourself sober?, about 6 or 7 hours into a session you are drunk and you know you are drunk, however you carry on, 3 or 4 hours later you feel more sober than you were a few hours ago, obviously we arent talking about passing a breath test here .

has it ever been you against the bottle? you are drunk and you know it, but there is about 1 inch left in the bottle, instead of stopping you see it a a personal challenge to finish the bottle before it finishes you.

have you ever got fed up trying to get drunk and gone to bed? talking here about having been on it for a good few hours, you reach a certain level of inebriation, however you carry on and dont seem to be getting any more drunk, so you knock it on the head and go to bed.

comments welcome.

[bifftastic]

So, as I say, I feel a lot happier in myself because I feel I have a better picture of the "skeleton in my closet" and feel less afraid of what it "might" be. I feel more confident that it is something I can sort out without taking drastic measures or making fundamental life changes, and surely taking away a positive outlook from this discussion is better than a negative one.

So thank you all for your contribution.

BTW - 'm not "signing off" on the thread, just summarizing and thanking, and setting out a road map J

Good for you man, well done.

By making changes in your life you will show yourself you have some control. It's great that you're thinking about it and acting on those thoughts.

I'd wish you good luck but I think you'll make your own

[onnut]

I am with onnut on this one, I can think of at least 3 questions that haven't been asked, may be the person who wrote the questionnaire has never experienced the following,

have you ever drunk yourself sober?, about 6 or 7 hours into a session you are drunk and you know you are drunk, however you carry on, 3 or 4 hours later you feel more sober than you were a few hours ago, obviously we arent talking about passing a breath test here .

has it ever been you against the bottle? you are drunk and you know it, but there is about 1 inch left in the bottle, instead of stopping you see it a a personal challenge to finish the bottle before it finishes you.

have you ever got fed up trying to get drunk and gone to bed? talking here about having been on it for a good few hours, you reach a certain level of inebriation, however you carry on and dont seem to be getting any more drunk, so you knock it on the head and go to bed.

comments welcome.

I have never drunk myself sober, normaly I get tired of drinking when I am full or already drunk and tend to nurse a bottle of beer for ages while talking and then go home.

the 1 inch in the bottle thingy is a good one, but I would call that one for the road, that I do often, drunk or not.

for the last one, I have never tried to get drunk! normaly comes quite easy

[Mobi]

You can never drink yourself sober as that is a contradiction in terms, assuming we take 'being drunk' as having a certain level of alcohol in your blood. The more you drink the higher that level of alcohol will will get, so it really is impossible to drink oneself sober.

I think what we are talking about here is an ability to control one's alcoholic behaviour. In other words our ability to 'maintain'.

On countless occasions I have been so pissed that I could hardly stand, my head will have been spinning and to all intents and purposes I have reached the point of being 'out of control'. I am aware that I have reached this point, but carry on drinking.

Often, after a period of time, this feeling of being out of control recedes and I am once more able to behave as a person with some semblance of control of myself.

I often refer this recovery of control over my actions as 'drinking myself sober' as in many ways I am acting more sober than I was an hour or two earlier in spite of the additional alcohol I have consumed during this period.

However, the reality is that I am even drunker, but for some reason I have managed to exercise sufficient self will to 'get a hold of myself'.

Not a very smart thing to do in any circumstances.

[jdinasia]

I'm not sure what 20 questions you have been referring to but here is the link to AA's 20 questions:

20 Q's

You will see that the Blackout issue is q.17.

Only you know the true answers to the other 19 q's.

Note that only 1 positive answer suggests you may well be an alcoholic, 2 positives increases this likelihood and 3 or more makes you an alcoholic as far as the AA are concerned.

Reading your posts, there is little doubt in my mind, but you are the one who has to be convinced.

These days there is no shame in admitting you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is recognised by a vast majority of doctors and professionals as a disease.

Some people can drink copious amounts of booze all their life but are not alcoholics - just heavy drinkers.

Others, like me, and I suspect you, are alcoholics. It takes an alcoholic to recognise one and everything you have written, including your protestations that you are probably not one, convinces me that you probably are.

But it is good that you are worrying about it and it is good that you want to take steps to do something about it.

As I said in my earlier post, you will lose nothing by attending a few AA meetings and it may help you to determine one way or another if you have a serious problem.

Good luck

Mobi ----

Point of order --- while MANY people involved with AA would agree with your statements about answering three or more questions "yes". I do not believe that AA itself has ever made that statement. The Johns Hopkins 20 questions is a tool to help people look at their drinking. It used to be using in admitting dipsomaniacs into their alcohol program. I do not believe it has ever officially been adopted by AA.

You made some good points in your other posts about what the questions mean.

Remorse --- That question usually goes to the heart of the atter both on control and family issues. Did you promise yourself and your wife and kids you would never get that drunk again but ..... Did you know that you needed the money that you spent on that drinking binge for clothes and school supplies etc ....

The behaviour of alcoholics is pretty similar to that of people suffering from other addictions but rarely so clear cut. Scraping together the cash to get drunk is after all, quite a bit easier than maintaining a 300$ a day cocaine habit.

Again, I don't have a horse in this race other than being put at risk from drunk drivers (and my opinion of them is somewhat lower than my opinion of Thaksin ....!)

[Mobi]

JD, it matters little that who, if anyone stated that giving three yes's to the questions makes you an alcoholic.

I believe the AA does great work and I also believe that a full blown 'alkie' has little chance of long term recovery without their support.

However the number of affirmative responses to the dreaded 20 questions is in itself of little consequence except as a general guide.

Here is an excerpt of what I wrote earlier in this thread:

Of course there is no hard and fast rule to say if your answers to 2, 3, 4 or more questions is 'yes' then you are an alcoholic, but to dismiss them in such a derisory manner is, with all due respect, also crap.

Everyone is different and none of us fit into neat pigeon holes - least of all alcoholics and problem drinkers, but by looking at the issues raised by the questions, many of us can see if we may have a problem, as most, but not all alcoholics have similar behavioural characteristics which become more and more obvious as we get older.

Many alcoholics lose their families, end up penniless, in the gutter or in prison, but countess more never reach that low. Many continue to maintain a reasonable quality of life for themselves and their families and hold onto their jobs for years, but it doesn't make them any less alcoholics.

The 20 questions are a rough and ready guide, and certainly if you are answering 'yes' to more than you are answering no then you are probably an alcoholic. If you are only answering 1 or 2 as 'yes', then the chances are you are not an alcoholic, but you still could be a border line case that in the full course of time may well turn into one.

[Mobi]

Also, on your point of order, please refer to the following link:

AA twenty questions

I believe this puts to bed the issue as to how many questions, in AA's opinion, qualify you for the big prize.

[ronz28]

I believe that level of drinking is abnormal. I have read that Max of 2 drinks a day (red wine is recommended) as healthy but much more than about 4-5 drinks will shorten the lives of most people. You could kill someone or be killed or do something else really terrible when so drunk out of your mind. You have been way over the limit and I hope you have cut back by now. If you can't cut back consider just cutting it out.

[powderpuff]

Been sober over 15 years (I quit counting).

OP has a problem & "cutting back" is not the answer.

Quit now while you still can.

It's like being a little bit pregnant.

If this sounds harsh - tough - the alternative is misery & death. Your choice.

[yogi100]

I'm an elderly fellow and I've drunk beer all my life although I've not got a particular high tolerance for the beverage. Were I to start drinking at 6pm I would not remember too much of what occurred by the end of the evening. That's normal.

I don't think you have a problem and I assume you are just a social drinker who gets the flavour and is reluctant to leave the pub as are many people everywhere. If you don't drink indoors, don't crave a drink and it causes you no trouble at work or in your personal life carry on as normal. I would not even think of you as a boozer.