Time To Bring Gay Rights In Thailand Out Of The Closet

[Richb2004v2]

Do they really need any further encouragement!?

[Jingthing]

This thread certainly proves there is lots of homophobia among expats on this board. No surprise there. In any case, people who don't think there are any issues for Thai gays, READ THE OP. Is it the most important issue facing Thailand? Of course not. Does that mean there is any good reason for Thailand not to address it along with all their other issues? I don't think so. There is no doubt that there are worse countries for gays. Iran, Sudan, etc. Also, there are better countries where gays have achieved near full and equal civil rights under the LAW, such as South Africa, Netherlands, etc. This of course affords homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals in respect to fairness in employment, housing, marriage, taxation, immigration, etc.

From expats point of view, those of us who are gay cannot marry our same sex partners if we want to. That would afford us the same immigration options in Thailand that heterosexuals enjoy.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Jingthing

[frodo77]

What still makes me sad is the continual reference to being gay as a choice. I knew I was gay at 14, and it was not a choice. In fact, I chose to try and be straight, but it did not work. I am gay because that was the way I was born.

[Jingthing]

What still makes me sad is the continual reference to being gay as a choice. I knew I was gay at 14, and it was not a choice. In fact, I chose to try and be straight, but it did not work. I am gay because that was the way I was born.

I agree with you of course, but homophobes exist and we have to live among them. Personally, I also didn't choose to be gay but if it was a choice, I would have chosen it. I am happy to be gay. It's the cat's pajamas.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Jingthing

[tombkk]

Frankly, I think farangs are discriminated against more than the gay population in Thailand.

I personally think that Thailand is the most open and accepting country for the gay/transgender population. I've never heard of a hate crime in Thailand related to gays.

I agree with you, Thailand is probably the most open country towards both gays and transgendered people I know.

However, the title of the thread mentions gay rights, while the OP is mainly about transgendered people. These are two completely different pairs of shoes.

It seems the author, while appearing to support a case (The gay case? The T-case?) really doesn't know what he is talking about. Maybe he is looking to improve his ranking as a journalist by stirring a controversy?

I agree with the posters who said that being gay or being transgendered (remember, these are two completely different things) is not a choice. It's a fact. But that's not even part of the Original Post.

[Jingthing]

Things are not always what they appear. Expats should know this.

For a country with such a large and evident GLBT population, Thailand has virtually no gay rights movement. There is little formal public discussion of homosexuality, despite the fact that it still carries a dangerous stigma (in fact, it was only taken off the list of mental diseases a couple of years ago). If they come out, gay men and women face discrimination at home and at work, where there are no anti-discrimination laws in place, and banned from military service. Also, considering gay men face a frighteningly high HIV rate of 28%, there’s the erroneous fear of contagion.

http://bangkok.metblogs.com/2007/01/05/gay-thailand/

BTW, I think the military policy has since been liberalized here.

wiki

Thailand

Same-sex sexual activity legal? Legal

Recognition of

relationships No

Military service Yes

Discrimination protections No

Edited October 30, 2010 by Jingthing

[monkfish]

Thailand has got a long way to go on Human rights for anybody.

Edited October 30, 2010 by monkfish

[tombkk]

Things are not always what they appear. Expats should know this.

For a country with such a large and evident GLBT population, Thailand has virtually no gay rights movement.

Maybe it's not necessary. I came back from a Gay Pride Parade in NY several years ago and showed pictures to my gay friends. "...and this is the 'Gay Bicycling Group'..." My friends asked: "If somelike likes bicycling, why would they want to restrict it to gay friends?" Point I'm trying to make: In Bangkok it doesn't matter whether you are straight or gay.

There is little formal public discussion of homosexuality, despite the fact that it still carries a dangerous stigma

(...)

BTW, I think the military policy has since been liberalized here.

The military policy has been liberalised. And there is a lot less stigma here than in the west.

[jayjay0]

Thailand has got a long way to go on Human rights for anybody.

What kind of a statement is that. The world has a long way to go.

As for Thailand needing gay rights The only prejudice against them is the expats get rid of them and they can forget the issue it won't be around.

[Jingthing]

As for Thailand needing gay rights The only prejudice against them is the expats get rid of them and they can forget the issue it won't be around.

That's just totally wrong.

[monkfish]

Thailand has got a long way to go on Human rights for anybody.

What kind of a statement is that. The world has a long way to go.

As for Thailand needing gay rights The only prejudice against them is the expats get rid of them and they can forget the issue it won't be around.

This is my opinion Thailand has a long way to go as far as Human rights are concerned.

Just as an example I am married for over 10 years with a Thai national and don't have the automatic right to reside and work in Thailand.

There are many more examples but I am sure they will get better with time.

Just out of interest which visa do foreign gays normally acquire a to remain in Thailand for long periods of time?

I do think they should be able to ottain a Non im O but assume thats not the case?

[Beetlejuice]

Frankly, I think farangs are discriminated against more than the gay population in Thailand.

I personally think that Thailand is the most open and accepting country for the gay/transgender population. I've never heard of a hate crime in Thailand related to gays.

[/quote

I've never heard of any hate crimes perpetrated against farangs in Thailand or perhaps I'm just not that well informed and missing something. Although Thai gays do not have to endure the indignities of duel pricing and having to report to the police every 90 days.

In all I would say that Thailand is one of the most gay tolerant countries of the world and fair much more favourable in Thailand then they do in England or in the Western world.

Prejudice: all minorities will have to except some sort of prejudice from the majorities because they are considered outside the norm whether this be rightly or wrongly. It`s part of human nature, always has been, always will be, no meeting or strategy will ever rid the world of prejudices. There is always going to be somebody or group that doesn`t like you either for who you are, what you are or both. No one is exempt, in that aspect we are all together, gay or otherwise.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[mca]

If they come out, gay men and women face discrimination at home and at work

That's just simply not true. Having worked in various positions in LOS and encountered them in a whole lot more I have never seen a homosexual treated any differently from any other members of staff. A Thai friend of mine works in Bangkok and out of 4 staff in his section his immediate boss is a tom and the other 2 guys ( his seniors) are gay. In fact my wife prefers gays working for her because she finds them more professional and cooperative.

Edited October 30, 2010 by mca

[SergeiY]

I can define transgender, though even people that can't perfectly define that newfangled word, are entitled to an opinion on the subject. Talk of completely liberal rights for transgenders is too sweeping of a statement. Sure, there should be basic rights for everyone. But it's the specifics that are sticky, because transgenders encompass a wide variety of ways in which people manifest. Example, there's a difference between a woman clerical worker who likes to wear cowboy boots and secretly wishes she were a man - to a man dressed as a woman who haunts the beach street at Pattaya, trying to make a living by cheating guys who take him/her up to their rooms for a quickie. One concern for calls for equality (as in the OP) are the possibility of using transgenderness as a smokescreen for weird or harmful behavior towards others.

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

20% or more of Thai males becoming transgenders may sit well with some people, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's too high a %. Some who read this might say, "How dare you say any % of transgenders is too high!!" Yes, it may sound prejudiced, but I just think it's a better world when boys are boys and girls are girls, ...when men are men and women are women. I also acknowledge there are oddballs in society, and that can be fine in moderate amounts. For example, every class of students probably has a 'class clown.' What if the whole class or the entire university were class clowns? Similarly, every village has it's 'town drunk.' What if the every person in the village were hopeless drunks? I'm not saying class clowns or village drunks are the same as transgender, I'm just trying to make a comparison of social phenomena.

What a nonsense.

Which century do you come from?

[SergeiY]

<deleted>! OH PLEEZE! Can these Thai academics and most straights out there first stop lumping gays and transgenders under the same categories!Almost 95% of gay men hate transgenders or being evenly identified with them in any way.

For most people: If you are a male and you like females, then you are heterosexual. If you are a male and you like males or a female who likes females, then you are gay. I cannot figure out why a normal guy would go for something like a trangender? Though it might come as a surprise to most people about my religious views though I am gay, I think that its against God's will to play around with your body and start changing the gender you are born with.

I used to feel pity for transgenders before and was doing some volunteer work for a few groups, both in the region and locally years ago, but I gave up after realising that almost 99% were misfits in almost everyway. In thailand, most of these transgenders like and enjoy their devious livehoods and are beyond salvation. I think that NGOs should be spending their efforts, resources and money helping the more deprived people like orphans, the physically sick, the aged, people with HIV, etc instead of these particular group. In terms of priority, should be wasting our time concentrating on people who have an issue wit the physical sexuality or a normal person who is going through sickness, poverty, issues of being abandoned, natural disasiers, etc?

I do apologise in advance if my personal comments do upset anyone.

what is the word for it when gay men hate transgender people?

[Jingthing]

what is the word for it when gay men hate transgender people?

No such word exists. Perhaps you can create one.

[SergeiY]

what is the word for it when gay men hate transgender people?

No such word exists. Perhaps you can create one.

Or just the word for hating transgendered people. I guess it make not much difference if the hater is gay or not. both type of haters are probably pretty macho man and maybe hate woman too.

[Jingthing]

what is the word for it when gay men hate transgender people?

No such word exists. Perhaps you can create one.

Or just the word for hating transgendered people. I guess it make not much difference if the hater is gay or not. both type of haters are probably pretty macho man and maybe hate woman too.

I had to look it up but apparently there is a word for that.

Transphobia

I have never before seen it written or heard it used. Is it in Oxford?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

[OzMick]

criminally inclined deviates

And what do you base that statement on.

Really liked your answer on the bulling. Good one and true.

I was referring specifically to ladyboys (see initial post) and referred to anecdotal evidence that 4 of my friends have been robbed by katoi hugger/muggers, which is out of all proportion to other crimes in this area. 2 of these were by the same person who operated out of the ice-works lane in Lamai, and in the 2nd event a knife was pulled when my friend realised what was happening. Both were tourists, and the police refused to look into it. I told the hotel management where I regularly booked friends that I would no longer do so and why - the problem now seems to have moved.

[jcbangkok]

I have always found it odd in Thailand that if a man becomes a women through surgery that they still have to remain a man on their ID and Passport. I am not sure if this is the case in most countries but I "think" in the US it is not. What if these women (ex-males) were to go to jail? Would they be housed with the women or men since they are listed as a man but now have breasts and a vagina????

It does seem to be a good policy for farang men visiting some discos .. at least in Singapore. This is how I found out about this. I found out the bar/disco would not let women in whose passport listed them as a man. However, seems to also be an issue for those wanting to truly become the opposite sex to know they will forever always be their original sex in the eyes of the law.

Edited October 31, 2010 by jcbangkok

[Beetlejuice]

what is the word for it when gay men hate transgender people?

No such word exists. Perhaps you can create one.

The question is, are they chicks with dicks or men with tits?

A Dutchman named, Lorrimar Van Helsing, discovered the first ladyboys in Transylvania in 1852. On examination he found that these were neither men nor women and categorized them as transformsylvanians later to be known as transgenders.

The word for hatred of transgender people is, translanticophobia because most of them live in the United States, especially around the dodgy areas of Los Angeles and Detroit.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[jcbangkok]

I'm sorry gents, but I cannot accept that ladyboys and their consorts are part of the heterosexual scene. And I do have something against them personally, though sexually I find them repugnant; they are the source of a much larger percentage of the local crime than their percentage of the population. No, I don't have statistics to back that up, but I have 4 friends robbed in hugger/mugger situations, which is out of all proportion to other crimes.

I have said this before and I will repeat it - putting your favourite sheep in a dress is still bestiality, and putting your boyfriend in a dress is still homosexuality, whether he still has a penis or not, and no matter what he thinks he really is. Homosexuals apparently wish to disown them as well, which brings us to the concept of bisexuality. IMO by interacting with a man who resembles a woman, the bisexual man can pretend that he is still "straight" until he no longer needs the pretence. Bisexuality is much more common and accepted than "pure" homosexuality in many cultures.

I really believe a good portion of ladyboys in Thailand are not gay or attracted to me. They simply have chosen the life to make money. I also don't have statistics but it seems very apparent that many working ladyboys are scam artists and well known to be pickpockets. While the sex trade in general may not be the most moral crowd, 99 out of 100 times a working girl is not going to steal from you but I would venture to say that more than 50% of the working ladyboys will steal from anyone give the chance. Chances are if one hugs you as you walk down the sidewalk, they are not interested in trying to get you as a customer but are trying to relieve you of cash in your pocket.

With that said, I have nothing against people wishing to switch genders but do find it also bizarre considering what they have to go through the rest of their life medically as well as the results often leaving them not looking like the opposite gender but simply looking like somebody "trying" to be the opposite gender.

I remember reading that ladyboys in Thailand have a MUCH MUCH higher rate of suicide. I wonder if it is because they get older and can no longer work successfully. I personally believe the large number of ladyboys in Thailand is simply a result of them wanting to make money in the sex trade and really not much concern beyond with living in the now. Maybe they are gay too but it seems clear their motivation for change is purely economical.

[jcbangkok]

LOL, I was searching the net for the actual definition of a ladyboy and ran across the below on Wikipedia ...

In 2004, the Chiang Mai Technology School allocated a separate restroom for kathoeys, with an intertwined male and female symbol on the door. The 15 kathoey students are required to wear male clothing at school but are allowed to sport feminine hairdos. The restroom features four stalls, but no urinals.

Following the Military Coup in 2006 kathoeys are hoping for a new third sex to be added to passports and other official documents in a proposed new constitution.

Is there another country that has taken steps to recognize a 3rd gender? Seems Thailand is ahead of the game on this one but one really needs to wonder if this is a good, bad or indifferent thing.

[moetownblues]

LOL, I was searching the net for the actual definition of a ladyboy and ran across the below on Wikipedia ...

In 2004, the Chiang Mai Technology School allocated a separate restroom for kathoeys, with an intertwined male and female symbol on the door. The 15 kathoey students are required to wear male clothing at school but are allowed to sport feminine hairdos. The restroom features four stalls, but no urinals.

Following the Military Coup in 2006 kathoeys are hoping for a new third sex to be added to passports and other official documents in a proposed new constitution.

Is there another country that has taken steps to recognize a 3rd gender? Seems Thailand is ahead of the game on this one but one really needs to wonder if this is a good, bad or indifferent thing.

Having a 3rd sex added to a thai passport would be pointless unless other countries also adopted a 3rd sex policy. Imagine arriving at an Australian immigration counter presenting a Thai passport with a 3rd sex you would not get in because Australia have 2 sexes Male/Female it would be as useful as a passport for your cat.

[chainarong]

I guess EVERYTHING needs improving but I really have not run across much prejudice against gays in Thailand. I see openly gay transgender folks working at many places. This is something not that common in the US. I am also told these guys (and former guys) make great sales people when it comes to things related to make-up and such. Again, it would be something that would cause much uneasiness with many shoppers in the US. My point is not that the US is a measuring stick but that this is certainly an area where Thailand has more acceptance and understanding.

As for many gays and transgener folks being in the sex trade ... it is a way to make a better living than most jobs in Thailand, This is an issue of economics and education and not sexuality. Secondly, I would venture to guess that a good number of so-called gays in the sex trade are not even gay but simply trying to make a buck. Many of the gay porn starts in the US are actually straight but it pays better and their is more work. Chances are if you see somebody openly displaying their "gayness" it is because they are advertising (often for work). Being gay shouldn't mean you are a walking homo advertisement.

The fact of the matter (in my opinion) is that when going to a retail outlet, it should be improper for the clerk to openly show any sexual preference .. regardless of country. It is just bad manners and makes many customers uncomfortable. I am in a relationship and regardless if it is a women or man, I don't need to deal with their sexuality when making a purchase ... well, at least outside Soi Cowboy.

Bottom line is I find it odd the things The Nation chooses to focus on when with so many more important issues that can be tackled and should be brought to light. Being poor and lacking opportunity is certainly not a problem relegated the gays in Thailand.

On a side note ... has anybody else noticed that when Thai's talk about gays they are only talking about men? Women gays are not called gay but Lesbians.

U raised some very good valid points, that are entirly correct.

[animatic]

what is the word for it when gay men hate transgender people?

No such word exists. Perhaps you can create one.

Homosexualtransgenderphobic.

Doesn't really trip of the tongue dies it?

Transphobic, this works better for sure.

It also is not really a useful phrase. I doubt there is much hate, just no interest sexually, and in some cases resentment, about being lumped in with them, by 'prejudiced others'.

It also falls into the category of learned responses based on tribal consolidation philosophies. Much of our learned hates and prejudices are put there so that others can control our group responses, keep power, and maintain an 'us vs them' mindset. No polarization, no sides to play off each other, no power, no control and less profit.

And any group or individual that ignores these rules is demonized for not fitting in the 'societal box' that creates the power bass. Since that 'individualists' example can cause others not to think of obeying the tenants of the philosophy. See the problems holding order in the Catholic church as a example. Fighting the slippery slope of rules degradation, someone ignores one issue and others will soon ignore two issues.

The rules on sexuality go back before most all religious groups in existence today,

because it came down to the basic survival of the tribal units, as seen by those long lost leaders. There is a logic to encouraging M/F sexuality, but the logic of hating, ostracizing or even killing 'deviates' i.e. those that go in another direction, is purely a remnant of this power control tactic that has become ingrained in many minds.

If you hadn't been raised to hate homosexuals, you wouldn't care if some were.

So is the idea of human rights for GLBT people valid, of course it is, because it is fighting for a mindset change in others who have been long locked in a 'post tribal stability' mindset, thousands of years after those tribes ceased to exist.

'Us against them', one of the oldest tactics of control existing, right there with 'divide and conquer', and 'uber nationalism'. This same control stratagy is used against GLBT people so that 'the nail that sticks up is hammered back down'.

While it is clearly more tolerant here than most places, that doesn't mean that all rights of all people are fully respected as if they were a typical married couple with 2.23 children, house and mortgage. Yes there no doubt is work still to do.

Edited October 31, 2010 by animatic

[jcbangkok]

LOL, I was searching the net for the actual definition of a ladyboy and ran across the below on Wikipedia ...

In 2004, the Chiang Mai Technology School allocated a separate restroom for kathoeys, with an intertwined male and female symbol on the door. The 15 kathoey students are required to wear male clothing at school but are allowed to sport feminine hairdos. The restroom features four stalls, but no urinals.

Following the Military Coup in 2006 kathoeys are hoping for a new third sex to be added to passports and other official documents in a proposed new constitution.

Is there another country that has taken steps to recognize a 3rd gender? Seems Thailand is ahead of the game on this one but one really needs to wonder if this is a good, bad or indifferent thing.

Having a 3rd sex added to a thai passport would be pointless unless other countries also adopted a 3rd sex policy. Imagine arriving at an Australian immigration counter presenting a Thai passport with a 3rd sex you would not get in because Australia have 2 sexes Male/Female it would be as useful as a passport for your cat.

No doubt it would simply make their entry into another country impossible ... but what I find more odd is their wanting to be labeled as a 3rd sex. This is just too strange. I am all for gay rights and being it an individual choice to change genders but to want to be a 3rd gender???? That I have no problem with saying is idiotic. If this is accepted then we must accept the 4th gender where folks decide they want wild animal body parts ... and then of course we will have to break it down further to make sure the folks with the horse penis are not discriminated against more than those with orangutan breasts.

Surely we can all agree there are only 2 sexes and that those rare instances where folks are born with both male and female organs is truly a birth defect. Maybe in many centuries a 3rd gender will emerge but I just don't see it anywhere in the human or animal world right now.

[Richb2004v2]

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

20% or more of Thai males becoming transgenders may sit well with some people, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's too high a %. Some who read this might say, "How dare you say any % of transgenders is too high!!" Yes, it may sound prejudiced, but I just think it's a better world when boys are boys and girls are girls, ...when men are men and women are women. I also acknowledge there are oddballs in society, and that can be fine in moderate amounts. For example, every class of students probably has a 'class clown.' What if the whole class or the entire university were class clowns? Similarly, every village has it's 'town drunk.' What if the every person in the village were hopeless drunks? I'm not saying class clowns or village drunks are the same as transgender, I'm just trying to make a comparison of social phenomena.

What you say may be discomforting for some but I think it makes a lot of sense. There are of course gay people in every society. I would not wish to dictate to these people how to live their lives, and as long as they are happy then that's fine. However there has to be an explanation for the incredibly high % in Thailand, and I think your theory is probably close to the mark. Never in my life have I seen to many very camp young boys as in Thailand. I understand that one may know they are gay at an early age but to be pantomime camp at maybe 13 years old is amazing.

I don't know exactly what further acceptance gay men in Thailand require. It seems that they have the freedom to dress, act and behave in what ever way makes them happy here.

I also think that some are expecting a little too much not to have a reaction when an obviously masculine man presents himself dresses in full female attire. It's not an unusual sight in Thailand. What reaction would a very feminine women receive dressed as a man wearing a flat cap and pencilled in moustache and beard?

[jayjay0]

criminally inclined deviates

And what do you base that statement on.

Really liked your answer on the bulling. Good one and true.

I was referring specifically to ladyboys (see initial post) and referred to anecdotal evidence that 4 of my friends have been robbed by katoi hugger/muggers, which is out of all proportion to other crimes in this area. 2 of these were by the same person who operated out of the ice-works lane in Lamai, and in the 2nd event a knife was pulled when my friend realised what was happening. Both were tourists, and the police refused to look into it. I told the hotel management where I regularly booked friends that I would no longer do so and why - the problem now seems to have moved.

I did see your origanal post and it said you had no facts just anecdotal evidence. I know nothing of the area but I would bet if I was interested in ladyboys it would be the area to migrate to. In another part of Bangkok I am sure the crimes would be done by a different type individual. Neither case would be a true representation on the sect as a whole.

I still maintain Thailand is extremely tolerant of the gay people and all the other related types. It is the Farongs who have the prejudices.

[moetownblues]

LOL, I was searching the net for the actual definition of a ladyboy and ran across the below on Wikipedia ...

In 2004, the Chiang Mai Technology School allocated a separate restroom for kathoeys, with an intertwined male and female symbol on the door. The 15 kathoey students are required to wear male clothing at school but are allowed to sport feminine hairdos. The restroom features four stalls, but no urinals.

Following the Military Coup in 2006 kathoeys are hoping for a new third sex to be added to passports and other official documents in a proposed new constitution.

Is there another country that has taken steps to recognize a 3rd gender? Seems Thailand is ahead of the game on this one but one really needs to wonder if this is a good, bad or indifferent thing.

Having a 3rd sex added to a thai passport would be pointless unless other countries also adopted a 3rd sex policy. Imagine arriving at an Australian immigration counter presenting a Thai passport with a 3rd sex you would not get in because Australia have 2 sexes Male/Female it would be as useful as a passport for your cat.

No doubt it would simply make their entry into another country impossible ... but what I find more odd is their wanting to be labeled as a 3rd sex. This is just too strange. I am all for gay rights and being it an individual choice to change genders but to want to be a 3rd gender???? That I have no problem with saying is idiotic. If this is accepted then we must accept the 4th gender where folks decide they want wild animal body parts ... and then of course we will have to break it down further to make sure the folks with the horse penis are not discriminated against more than those with orangutan breasts.

Surely we can all agree there are only 2 sexes and that those rare instances where folks are born with both male and female organs is truly a birth defect. Maybe in many centuries a 3rd gender will emerge but I just don't see it anywhere in the human or animal world right now.

I guess you are refering to Hermaphrodites. .