Non Abiding

[fullyunenlightened]

when things happen

make no response

keep the mind from fixing

on anything whatsoever

im almost certain its from a korean master

hundreds of years ago

this must be the equivalent to our non abiding practice

how do you know that the mind is fixing

and not fixing?

when not fixing....on what do you put the attention?

[christiaan]

When fixing you try to reveal your lower self, your ego, to the world, when, actively non fixing it is possible the -spiritual- 'world' reveals itself to you.

[fullyunenlightened]

ok, yes, the world that is revealed

is also-all of it-attachable

this is interesting: actively non fixing it

one says to oneself....if i attach to any of this

there will be trouble. some sort of suffering

so then i will not attach i will not fix my attention

on any of this

already, one fixes on that determined state

thats fixing. no doubt in my mind

sounds ridiculous....i will not fix onto anything by

fixing only to one thing

[rockyysdt]

ok, yes, the world that is revealed

is also-all of it-attachable

this is interesting: actively non fixing it

one says to oneself....if i attach to any of this

there will be trouble. some sort of suffering

so then i will not attach i will not fix my attention

on any of this

already, one fixes on that determined state

thats fixing. no doubt in my mind

sounds ridiculous....i will not fix onto anything by

fixing only to one thing

I would say the "I" being referred to is not you or your ego, but your observer.

As long as you observe yourself either being attached or not being attached.

Observe your breath.

Observe your body.

Observe your mind.

The observer shouldn't control or fix or become attached to what it observes, but should simply observe without control or attachment.

The observer might observe the ego fixing on something or attempting to actively not fix. This is of no consequence to the observer.

In time, awareness brought about by the observer will automatically bring about a reduction of attachment by or to ego.

[christiaan]

ok, yes, the world that is revealed

is also-all of it-attachable

it is, but the question is : do you attach to it or are you just aware of this world

this is interesting: actively non fixing it

actively nonfixing means actively wihtholding your ego to respond to the sense awareness with ego.

one says to oneself....if i attach to any of this

there will be trouble. some sort of suffering

so then i will not attach i will not fix my attention

on any of this

If you do so you are attached to some concept of trouble and solving suffering, and in this way your ego is revealing itself to the world , fixing to this, and so you are not in a state of non-fixing

already, one fixes on that determined state

as I wrote

thats fixing. no doubt in my mind

you are right, and it is a fixing you come up with yourself by suggesting...........one says to oneself......... etcetera

that is in fact very interesting to come up yourself with an example of ego attachment and then to declare the invalidity of actively non-fixing, very interesting.

thinking this way you must be right.

sounds ridiculous....i will not fix onto anything by

fixing only to one thing

so....don't do it.

[fullyunenlightened]

thanks rocky and chris

stuff there is worthy of some rumination

non attatchment, non abiding and non fixing

you make it sound that its very straightforward and simple

maybe not so difficult to not attatch to weak passing

thoughts and images or a beautiful sight

what about pain-some very strong excruciating pain

comes up and youre not in a position to move

its so strong its as though its right in front of your

face and its not moving

its hellish and unpleasant

you think...this is a time for non abiding! im outta here!

oh no, its still there.

one has no choice, it seems, but to be fully aware of it

minute after minute

ones attention is fixed upon it

and one cannot unfix it

aversion to it comes up.......watch that

when you are watching something it means you are fixing

attention upon it

still fixing

[fullyunenlightened]

the above example is a situation where one

cannot not abide in

abiding means staying somewhere.

staying in a particular place

staying with a particular object

if you dont abide in "x".......where do you go?

[IMA_FARANG]

i read the responses to this post. A couple of points:

As a Zen practitioner I see what you call non-abiding as what a Zen practioiner would call, "No attachment to Form" or non-attachment. Basically the same idea as I interpret it.

We would say the key(?) to non attachment is overcoming the illusion of self, of past and future as outside things (what we might call Form).

Having overcome the illusion of past, future, and a seperate self (illusions generated by the mind and the Ego mind) we would hope to live in the eternal NOW. (No attachment to Form)

And yes, it's very dificult to do. (I haven't really got there yet).

And as a Zen Koan asks,"The buffalo goes through the gate, his tail dissapears from view. But where does the buffalo's tail go?"

[christiaan]

Hello fullyunenlighted

Rumination, that is a nice expression in this context.

Non fixing is not easy, it is relatively easy done over a short period of time, but non fixing as a state of consciousness is not only very difficult but it is only possible for just a few people on earth.

Looong time ago, in the time of revelations, people lived inside the - spiritual - knowledge and could not and did not think about this.

Humans simple knew.

I wrote this in some other contribution, nowadays one can see this living inside knowledge in animals. Elephants knew the Tsunami was coming and fled to high land followed by their caretakers who told the tourists to follow the elephants.

Those elephants did know out of their feeling not out of their thinking.

Humans developed to a higher level, we are now outside this world of knowledge and so we can think about it, become aware of it by our own efforts.

And in this situation outside knowledge, we know about te world because when our senses are open to the world we immediately become aware of it.

We have awareness, selfawareness and out of this selfawareness we will have the faculties to change the world.

Elephants at the moment do not change the world , they mainly digest it.

We can climb up in awareness living in the world only when we learn to know this world.

The world shows us who we are.

Looking at Buddha it seems very simple to think: o...I only have to do as Siddhartha Gautama and I will also be a Buddha.

It is like watching van Gogh painting and think : 0..I only have to paint like van Gogh and i will be a famous painter.

Well Buddha had a number of important reincarnations before this life, and those lifes to him also had been a school, a way, a life of practice of exersice of learning by effort, making 'wrong' choices and following his inner desire to find the answers to the most important questions.

The final state of Buddha seems to have been the state of pure consciousness, a consciousness that is there when a person transcend his or her ego to complete spirituality

It is the state in wich a person meets the origin and the world of his higher self, his I.

Fixing, non-fixing, meditation, study about the world , observing, contemplating, developing high morality, high selfawareness, are all practice in the school of life.

And there is not just one road to truth.

It is like climbing a mountain, we can all climb a mountain in our own way, by our own route, meeting our own difficulties, but at the end we all have the same view once at the top. Not limited in any way anymore.

It is no sign of absolute awareness or being enlighted to teach there is just one way to the top of the mountain.

But there is just one view at the top of the mountain.

It might be very impressing what some people can do with concentration , meditation and so on, there was a spiritual man who could swallow a leaf of lettuce and have it leave his body as fresh as he 'eat' it, there is a man who can be burried for days and slow down his breath and heartbeat dramatically and be freed out of the soil after a couple of days alive.

There are many magicians in the world, especialy in india, but what does it bring the world?

They are mainly occupied with themself without realising in what direction and in what way humanity evolves into the future.

When we practice, study, do our exersices, concentration and meditation out of love, gratitude, and compassion to the world, and at the same time also live daily life with its sorrows, pain and daily routine, we do all we can do to become the spiritual master of our self. Nowadays there is no need to be a monk to become a master of oneself, everyone can when just doing what has to be done.

All the teachings necessary are there.

We cannot start at the top of the mountain, we climb up.

[fullyunenlightened]

hi chris

pretty much agree to all that

Non fixing is not easy, it is relatively easy done over a short period of time, but non fixing as a state of consciousness is not only very difficult but it is only possible for just a few people on earth.

i suspect the same thing

some people have very heavy karmas

and also those who dont have heavy karmas

but have just begun meditation--they try to practice non abiding

and other higher practices, but cant

they have no choice but to endure / burn out / co-exist

with the things that come up

not much different from being in hel_l

well, actually theres one or two things

i disagree with in your post and if i respond

to them then the subject non abiding gets forgotten

some other thread maybe

[fullyunenlightened]

farang, hi

im a great fan of zen too

this piece on non abiding is absolutely awesome

written about 600 years ago

a letter from zen master to samuri

full text http://www.daikonforge.com/downloads/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf

WHERE ONE PUTS THE MIND

We say that:

If one puts his mind in the action of his opponent's body, his mind will be taken by the action of his opponent's body.[6]

If he puts his mind in his opponent's sword, his mind will be taken by that sword.

If he puts his mind in thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him, his mind will be taken by thoughts of his opponent's intention to strike him.

If he puts his mind in his own sword, his mind will be taken by his own sword.

If he puts his mind in his own intention of not being struck, his mind will be taken by his intention of not being struck.

If he puts his mind in the other man's stance, his mind will be taken by the other man's stance.

What this means is that there is no place to put the mind.

A certain person once said, "No matter where I put my mind, my intentions are held in check in the place where my mind goes, and I lose to my opponent. Because of that, I place my mind just below my navel and do not let it wander. [7] Thus am I able to change according to the actions of my opponent."

This is reasonable. But viewed from the highest standpoint of Buddhism, putting the mind just below the navel and not allowing it to wander is a low level of understanding, not a high one. It is at the level of discipline and training. It is at the level of seriousness. Or of Mencius' saying, "Seek after the lost mind."[8] This is not the highest level either. It has the sense of seriousness. As for the "lost mind," I have written about this elsewhere, and you can take a look at it there.

If you consider putting your mind below your navel and, not letting it wander, your mind will be taken by the mind that thinks of this plan. You will have no ability to move ahead and will be exceptionally unfree.

This leads to the next question, "If putting my mind below my navel leaves me unable to function and without freedom, it is of no use. In what part of my body, then, should I put my mind?"

I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye, and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your mind will be taken by the right foot, and your body will lack its functioning.

"No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in one place, the rest of your body will lack its functioning."

"Well, then, where does one put his mind?"

I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend throughout its entirety. In this way, when it enters your hand, it will realize the hand's function. When it enters your foot, it will realize the foot's function. When it enters your eye, it will realize the eye's function.

"If you should decide on one place and put the mind there, it will be taken by that place and lose its function. If one thinks, he will be taken by his thoughts.

"Because this is so, leave aside thoughts and discrimination, throw the mind away from the entire body, do not stop it here and there, and when it does visit these various places, it will realize function and action without error."

Putting the mind in one place is called falling into one-sidedness. One-sidedness is said to be bias in one place. Correctness is in moving about anywhere. The Correct Mind shows itself by extending the mind throughout the body. It is not biased in anyone place.

When the mind is biased in one place and lacking in another, it is called a one-sided mind. One-sidedness is despicable. To be arrested by anything, no matter what, is falling into one-sidedness and is despised by those traveling the Way.

When a person does not think, "Where shall I put it?" the mind will extend throughout the entire body and move about to any place at all.

[christiaan]

Reading this story I can see the story it self tells the mind is put in the mind.

[fullyunenlightened]

well thats pretty good if you can see it

years ago when i was studying with the

tibetan gelukpas-they looked down upon the chinese-based

mahayana as 'mind only' one step nearer to

their own (ultimate view) madyamika

cant say that i see what you see

but for me its an inspiring teaching

it propels you to try it

and try it i did

its not easy!

normally, this practice cannot be done

not with the ordinary mind/operating mode

people start their meditation sitting with

but

if one asks the question...."what is it that looks through these eyes?"

theres a good chance of entering a different, more refined

clarity/detatchment of mind than usual

in this state i find i can do this not-fixing practice

not for long----hel_l, its got to be practised!

this state gives the advantage that one

already is in a more detatched state

and any potential attatchable object that comes into view....

one is in a better position to properly deal with it

[christiaan]

You could look to non-fixing as non-fixing to your self, your ego.

That is very different from non-fixing your self.

When you wake up you are normally all the time fixed to the world around you with your senses in sense -awareness, for very short or longer periods

It is in fact quite bizar to be non-fixed to anything at all in a constant state of awareness.

You might even say, when you are aware, just aware, you are fixed to awareness.

One could even say when you are enlighted you are in some way fixed to enlightment.

The difference is: are you fixed to your self in an aware or non aware way, or are you fixed to something outside yourself?

One can practice this by meditation.

When you meditate about a natural phenomenon, something in no way made or constructed by human, or when you meditate about a complete pure spiritual thought, you are not fixed to (something of) your self, your ego.

For a meditation related to nature it could be interesting to meditate about the observation that about all animals move with their spine horizontal and the human moves with the spine vertical.

For a meditation related to spirituality one could meditate about the thought: wisdom lives in the light

In both meditations it is important not to put in something of yourself but to let the both objects of your meditation speak for themself, like they are books you read for the first time.

That could be, in some way and to some level, non-fixing and having a (from ego) empty mind.

[bina]

stuff there is worthy of some rumination

i was just thinking that all of what u all were writing was basically said in that sentence:

have u ever sat and watched a goat or sheep or alpaca/buffalo whatever, chew its cud? the animal concnetrates on regurgitating its cud, and its stomachs do a ruminating process: if u put your head next to one of these animals u will here an feel the rumination as the muscles contract every two minutes or so, they kind of ripple along your head, and then the animal chews its cud again... its a very 'samathi' process: the animal is only concnetrating on chewing the cud,then it pauses for an instant, concentrates, and brings up more cud (which is the rumination of the rumenstomach) and the process feeds itself. an animal that doesnt ruminate is a sick/stressed out animal. once u get them ruminating again, they calm down and center themselves.

if an animal stops to think-- usually as a response to outside stimulatin but sometimes they do think before they do, or something disrupts them, they stop their cud-ruminating for a minute or so (the internal rumnation is utomatic, the cud chewing is controlled by the animal) , and they swallow their cud, and go and check out what ever it is that caught them.

probably not releavant but reminded me of watching my goats for hours chewing their cuds....

bina

[christiaan]

That is a nice contribution.

Out of your story I would however understand :

If an animal stops to concentrate on regurgitating its cud,.......usually as a reponse to outside stimulatin......they stop their cud and start to concentrate to the outside stimulatin.

So that is a situation where the animal is not the master of the activity - in or outside it self, but the activity inside or outside the animal is the master of the animal.

It is very easy to control the natural behaviour of these kind of animals once you have become aware of their inside living laws of life, or in other way; once you have grasped the living idea cow, goat, alpaca or buffalo. In general one can say when you have grasped the idea cow you can control the behaviour of every normal cow, because they have a group soul.

Every healthy human is a single soul, a self and in the best situation the -inner - master of that self.

[bina]

That is a nice contribution.

Out of your story I would however understand :

If an animal stops to concentrate on regurgitating its cud,.......usually as a reponse to outside stimulatin......they stop their cud and start to concentrate to the outside stimulatin.

So that is a situation where the animal is not the master of the activity - in or outside it self, but the activity inside or outside the animal is the master of the animal.

It is very easy to control the natural behaviour of these kind of animals once you have become aware of their inside living laws of life, or in other way; once you have grasped the living idea cow, goat, alpaca or buffalo. In general one can say when you have grasped the idea cow you can control the behaviour of every normal cow, because they have a group soul.

Every healthy human is a single soul, a self and in the best situation the -inner - master of that self.

weeeeeeellllllllll... ok: i am rather more basic. KISS keep it simple silly... i.e.

u grasped what i was saying until u tried to give animals and people souls, group souls or single souls. i was realling trying to explain the idea of hvaing the ability of concentration on a specific activity with absolute ease. a goat kind of 'nang samathi- i gueass like walking meditation. 'chewing cud chewing cud chewing cud...'....

yes,knowing how animals work we can control their behaviors (conditioning), not sure where u got the souls from.

bina

[christiaan]

KISS ...From observation