Thai Anti-Graft Project Aims To "Shut The Door To Corruption"

[EyesWideOpen]

Ok after falling off my chair laughing, I am back at my keyboard. There is no need for Thailand to figure out some new amazing way to stop corruption........ They need to look no farther than Singapore. They went from very corrupt to zero corruption, and did it in only a few years, not many lifetimes. So what that shows is it CAN be done, it simply takes the will.

[AZBill]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[RaoulDuke]

At least the corruption in Thailand and SE Asia is out in the open, for all to see. The stuff that goes on in the west is all under the table, and behind closed doors, and most of the people living there are so ignorant that they do not believe it is going on. After all, the USA is the mostest bestest country in the whole world, so of course we could never do anything wrong. But once you start to open your eyes and see it, it becomes a very disturbing thing. A cop taking a bribe is a minor annoyance, but a country going to war to make money for billionaires is a whole different level of evil and destruction.

I applaud the fact that he is at least acknowledging it. And if they ever do get serious about cracking down on it, they have to start somewhere, and I am sure everyone will be skeptical of it until they see some progress. But you can at least hope some good will come of it, it seems like Thailand is starting to get more serious about some things, such as drugs and child prostitution. You can't even buy a strong pain killer without a Rx. I'm sure that is easy to get around, but like I said, its a start. And they are at least making a few high profile arrests of pedophiles, even if they still look the other way most of the time. Its all about baby steps.

[ozzieovaseas]

:cheesy:

35 posts already and not 1 person has poseted a... :cheesy:

:cheesy:

[asiawatcher]

Good luck with that! Another PR exercise about "doing the right thing".

[yellow1red1]

All very well but this move is likely to cripple , '' the white envelope industry .''

What about the coopers industry ( barrel makers in case you're not aware of the term coopers), that industry for the manufacturing of barrels for the storage of pork in bulk will indeed also go to the wall.

Indeed this move could have frightening repercussions upon the Thai economy in the long term.

yes ,,, what about all the displaced mia noiz??? perhaps the govt can set up 1/2 way mia noi houses to be 'administered' by cabinet ministers!

not a good time ahead for mb dealerships, yacht brokers, too

[teddy_bare]

India is also fairly corrupt. The newest thing there is this website:

http://ipaidabribe.com/

Seems to be activitely used and becoming respected by the bribe takers

[yellow1red1]

At least the corruption in Thailand and SE Asia is out in the open, for all to see. The stuff that goes on in the west is all under the table, and behind closed doors, and most of the people living there are so ignorant that they do not believe it is going on. After all, the USA is the mostest bestest country in the whole world, so of course we could never do anything wrong. But once you start to open your eyes and see it, it becomes a very disturbing thing. A cop taking a bribe is a minor annoyance, but a country going to war to make money for billionaires is a whole different level of evil and destruction.

I applaud the fact that he is at least acknowledging it. And if they ever do get serious about cracking down on it, they have to start somewhere, and I am sure everyone will be skeptical of it until they see some progress. But you can at least hope some good will come of it, it seems like Thailand is starting to get more serious about some things, such as drugs and child prostitution. You can't even buy a strong pain killer without a Rx. I'm sure that is easy to get around, but like I said, its a start. And they are at least making a few high profile arrests of pedophiles, even if they still look the other way most of the time. Its all about baby steps.

The problem in America is 'recognized' . http://www.transpare...pi/2010/results

only got 70%, NOT stellar, but Thailand got 35%

how is 'out in the open' a good thing? = rampant

it's 'out in the open, for all to see' , for example, that getting started in BIB requires bribes to get a placement. Starting police career via a criminal act, bribery, really sets the tone for what it's all about, 'clearly'. not so good

As I Posted months ago, and siampole, above, the Thai economy would falter if corruption was cleaned up.

just look at the houses of ranking bib, upper 'civil servants' , military officers, politicians,,,

there would be a mortgage melt down if they all had to come clean!!

EDIT and pity all the homeless mia nois!

Edited November 4, 2010 by yellow1red1

[nowork114]

Same as with the anti-corruption line? It was so busy all the time so you had to bribe somebody to get through ....

[taff33]

Is this one of those crack downs on the crack downs? or the hub of hub things?

So the nest time BIN pulls me over and starts to extort me i will ask him to produce his signed copy of integrity pack?

or when i go to get something done and they start to click fingers under the table i will again ask them to show me the pack?

Man, people must be really really bored in the government

You make it sound like a daily occurrence. I have lived here for five years and not run into that problem once. That is not to say it isn't out there. But to continually put your self in situations where it is happening is a matter of choice. I my self choose not to.

Once again we start some thing good. Let us hope it sticks around this time.

I think you should get more :jerk:

[caf]

Ok after falling off my chair laughing, I am back at my keyboard. There is no need for Thailand to figure out some new amazing way to stop corruption........ They need to look no farther than Singapore. They went from very corrupt to zero corruption, and did it in only a few years, not many lifetimes. So what that shows is it CAN be done, it simply takes the will.

Singapore is a good example. I agree. But many influential people will need to be convinced and wages will rise

And it will work in Thailand???

[christiaan]

I am no expert in the topic corruption. I know there are important differences in Asian cultures and western cultures but when I started to learn more about Asian cultures after visiting China, Vietnam and now Thailand I got the feeling some of the difference could be merely superficial. The label of corruption means: accepting payment out of the legallity as we often can see in poorer countries, while in many western countries coruption seems to be legalised. What do I mean by that? I see in the West people getting paid for jobs completely out of reality. The upper class of people who occupy the most powerfull positions decide about salaries and payment and golden handshakes all according the legallity of law. Very often this is the case for people having a high office job in a public sector.

What to think about an income of 500.000 us dollars a year? for being the head in office of a public health office? Will they die when they would only get half of the money?

Even when they double my salary I would not have 15% of this money, but then could buy myself a nice house, probably a BMW , save money for pension and have good healthinsurance. Just to name some.

In my view it is very close to accept a salary 10 times the amount - or more - you need to have for a good life living in the west or to use your power to have your self paid by corruption 10 times or more for what you need in an asian country to have a good life.

All the money people in fact do not need is money - in fact work - people take from other people, In both cases it is cold greed, nothing else.

I wonder if there, in this view, essentially is a lot of difference between asian countries and most western countries.

Maybe Asian countries lack the organisations and the laws to regulate fair payment, in the west people are very cunning to organise and construct laws to uplevel their income to excessive (insulting) situations.

Isn't it so that every country has a powerfull rich elite enclosed in a circle of 'friends, relatives and 'acquaintances' where the main goal is to keep their power and their money? And so maybe in the modern western countries they do the 'modern' way, in the other countries they do the ' third world' way.

[whybother]

I am no expert in the topic corruption. I know there are important differences in Asian cultures and western cultures but when I started to learn more about Asian cultures after visiting China, Vietnam and now Thailand I got the feeling some of the difference could be merely superficial. The label of corruption means: accepting payment out of the legallity as we often can see in poorer countries, while in many western countries coruption seems to be legalised. What do I mean by that? I see in the West people getting paid for jobs completely out of reality. The upper class of people who occupy the most powerfull positions decide about salaries and payment and golden handshakes all according the legallity of law. Very often this is the case for people having a high office job in a public sector.

What to think about an income of 500.000 us dollars a year? for being the head in office of a public health office? Will they die when they would only get half of the money?

Even when they double my salary I would not have 15% of this money, but then could buy myself a nice house, probably a BMW , save money for pension and have good healthinsurance. Just to name some.

In my view it is very close to accept a salary 10 times the amount - or more - you need to have for a good life living in the west or to use your power to have your self paid by corruption 10 times or more for what you need in an asian country to have a good life.

All the money people in fact do not need is money - in fact work - people take from other people, In both cases it is cold greed, nothing else.

I wonder if there, in this view, essentially is a lot of difference between asian countries and most western countries.

Maybe Asian countries lack the organisations and the laws to regulate fair payment, in the west people are very cunning to organise and construct laws to uplevel their income to excessive (insulting) situations.

Isn't it so that every country has a powerfull rich elite enclosed in a circle of 'friends, relatives and 'acquaintances' where the main goal is to keep their power and their money? And so maybe in the modern western countries they do the 'modern' way, in the other countries they do the ' third world' way.

What you are talking about in the west is people getting paid a lot of money to do their job. They get paid whether they do something or not (until they sacked for not doing it, ofcourse).

In Thailand, you have to pay extra for someone to do their job. That is, they are getting paid to do a job, but if you want them to do it, you have to pay them extra. This isn't just because they have low salaries. Even some of the better paid staff still expect an extra payment just to do their job.

Edited November 4, 2010 by whybother

[nikster]

Give it a chance. At least they are doing something.

Politicians will love you. That's exactly what their job is - make people believe that they're doing something about something.

Lip service is worse than no action, because it's a lie covering up the non-action.

I have been in this country only for a few years but even I know that there's a new anti-corruption drive every year or so. A "crackdown" of sorts - but unlike other crackdowns this one is one where nothing happens, not even in the beginning, not even a few token cases.

And when I read wishy-washy stuff like "the private sector has to pitch in" then I can already tell you this is all a bunch of BS. That would never work even if there were honest intentions to implement it, which there are not.

[whybother]

Give it a chance. At least they are doing something.

Politicians will love you. That's exactly what their job is - make people believe that they're doing something about something.

Lip service is worse than no action, because it's a lie covering up the non-action.

I have been in this country only for a few years but even I know that there's a new anti-corruption drive every year or so. A "crackdown" of sorts - but unlike other crackdowns this one is one where nothing happens, not even in the beginning, not even a few token cases.

And when I read wishy-washy stuff like "the private sector has to pitch in" then I can already tell you this is all a bunch of BS. That would never work even if there were honest intentions to implement it, which there are not.

So, what you're saying is "Don't bother doing anything, because anything they do will just be lip service anyway".

Which is probably true ... but maybe I'm just an optimist and believe that *anything* they do to reduce corruption or to raise the awareness of how corruption is bad, is a good thing.

[nikster]

I am no expert in the topic corruption. I know there are important differences in Asian cultures and western cultures but when I started to learn more about Asian cultures after visiting China, Vietnam and now Thailand I got the feeling some of the difference could be merely superficial. The label of corruption means: accepting payment out of the legallity as we often can see in poorer countries, while in many western countries coruption seems to be legalised. What do I mean by that? I see in the West people getting paid for jobs completely out of reality. The upper class of people who occupy the most powerfull positions decide about salaries and payment and golden handshakes all according the legallity of law. Very often this is the case for people having a high office job in a public sector.

What to think about an income of 500.000 us dollars a year? for being the head in office of a public health office? Will they die when they would only get half of the money?

Even when they double my salary I would not have 15% of this money, but then could buy myself a nice house, probably a BMW , save money for pension and have good healthinsurance. Just to name some.

In my view it is very close to accept a salary 10 times the amount - or more - you need to have for a good life living in the west or to use your power to have your self paid by corruption 10 times or more for what you need in an asian country to have a good life.

All the money people in fact do not need is money - in fact work - people take from other people, In both cases it is cold greed, nothing else.

I wonder if there, in this view, essentially is a lot of difference between asian countries and most western countries.

Maybe Asian countries lack the organisations and the laws to regulate fair payment, in the west people are very cunning to organise and construct laws to uplevel their income to excessive (insulting) situations.

Isn't it so that every country has a powerfull rich elite enclosed in a circle of 'friends, relatives and 'acquaintances' where the main goal is to keep their power and their money? And so maybe in the modern western countries they do the 'modern' way, in the other countries they do the ' third world' way.

I totally disagree with this. While it's true there are circles of rich in the west, and by acquaintance and inheritance they form a bit of an exclusive club, there is also a culture of merit. If you're better at your job - say - you can make more money. Same if you work more. Public posts are getting paid better because otherwise, all the good people leave and work in the private sector - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

But more importantly, the laws apply to everyone. If you're speeding, you'll get a ticket. If you murder someone, you go to jail. The corruption in countries like Thailand prevents real progress in many ways, as it's so ingrained that it undermines or even outright prevents the rule of the law. Without the rule of the law, democracy is impossible - you have people just buying elections, for example, keeping themselves in power indefinitely, and using the people's tax money to grossly enrich themselves, which, again gives them more money to buy elections. There are some prerequisites for a democracy: The rule of the law, a free press, and a few others - corruption precludes some of these prerequisites and thereby prevents democracy.

Imagine you have an idea for a product here in Thailand - are there any laws that would protect your idea? Not in actuality, and laws cannot be enforced. So if you're an entrepreneur with an idea, best leave the country. Just one example of how lack of a rule of law is bad for business and bad for society.

The main problem with corruption in a country like the USA is paid lobbyists and media forces which skew the ideals of democracy. But that's nowhere near the same level as what we see here, not even close, not even comparable. All the money in the world cannot buy you an election in the west.

[nikster]

Give it a chance. At least they are doing something.

Politicians will love you. That's exactly what their job is - make people believe that they're doing something about something.

Lip service is worse than no action, because it's a lie covering up the non-action.

I have been in this country only for a few years but even I know that there's a new anti-corruption drive every year or so. A "crackdown" of sorts - but unlike other crackdowns this one is one where nothing happens, not even in the beginning, not even a few token cases.

And when I read wishy-washy stuff like "the private sector has to pitch in" then I can already tell you this is all a bunch of BS. That would never work even if there were honest intentions to implement it, which there are not.

So, what you're saying is "Don't bother doing anything, because anything they do will just be lip service anyway".

Which is probably true ... but maybe I'm just an optimist and believe that *anything* they do to reduce corruption or to raise the awareness of how corruption is bad, is a good thing.

Absolutely not what I am saying. I am saying beware of the liars.

I am saying "doing something" isn't necessarily better than doing nothing - particularly when the doing is trying to make it appear as if you're doing something when in reality you're doing nothing. Imagine you run a company and one person is doing nothing all day. You'll probably fire him pretty quickly. But if he is very good at appearing busy it might take you month to figure out, at a much higher cost to the company.

Read about how this proposal is supposed to be reducing corruption. Even just reading the summary I am getting a very strong feeling it's just a bunch of lies. The thing is, the people are sick of corruption. So what the politicians do is every now and then they make it appear as if something was happening. Behind the scenes they're either making money hand over fist from the very thing they pretend to be combating, or they've resigned themselves to the fact that it's an impossible problem.

So yeah the politicians are taking action. And the action they choose to take is to tell everyone a big fat lie. How is that better than doing nothing?

[whybother]

<snip>

So yeah the politicians are taking action. And the action they choose to take is to tell everyone a big fat lie. How is that better than doing nothing?

Fair point.

I hope this leads to something rather than nothing.

[caf]

Give it a chance. At least they are doing something.

Politicians will love you. That's exactly what their job is - make people believe that they're doing something about something.

Lip service is worse than no action, because it's a lie covering up the non-action.

I have been in this country only for a few years but even I know that there's a new anti-corruption drive every year or so. A "crackdown" of sorts - but unlike other crackdowns this one is one where nothing happens, not even in the beginning, not even a few token cases.

And when I read wishy-washy stuff like "the private sector has to pitch in" then I can already tell you this is all a bunch of BS. That would never work even if there were honest intentions to implement it, which there are not.

It has to be the hub of something. Hub of air travel didn't work. Hub of crackdowns has a certain ring about it. All the hubs they come up with are fairy tales anyway. Not surprising given Enid Blyton was Thai.

[caf]

I am no expert in the topic corruption. I know there are important differences in Asian cultures and western cultures but when I started to learn more about Asian cultures after visiting China, Vietnam and now Thailand I got the feeling some of the difference could be merely superficial. The label of corruption means: accepting payment out of the legallity as we often can see in poorer countries, while in many western countries coruption seems to be legalised. What do I mean by that? I see in the West people getting paid for jobs completely out of reality. The upper class of people who occupy the most powerfull positions decide about salaries and payment and golden handshakes all according the legallity of law. Very often this is the case for people having a high office job in a public sector.

What to think about an income of 500.000 us dollars a year? for being the head in office of a public health office? Will they die when they would only get half of the money?

Even when they double my salary I would not have 15% of this money, but then could buy myself a nice house, probably a BMW , save money for pension and have good healthinsurance. Just to name some.

In my view it is very close to accept a salary 10 times the amount - or more - you need to have for a good life living in the west or to use your power to have your self paid by corruption 10 times or more for what you need in an asian country to have a good life.

All the money people in fact do not need is money - in fact work - people take from other people, In both cases it is cold greed, nothing else.

I wonder if there, in this view, essentially is a lot of difference between asian countries and most western countries.

Maybe Asian countries lack the organisations and the laws to regulate fair payment, in the west people are very cunning to organise and construct laws to uplevel their income to excessive (insulting) situations.

Isn't it so that every country has a powerfull rich elite enclosed in a circle of 'friends, relatives and 'acquaintances' where the main goal is to keep their power and their money? And so maybe in the modern western countries they do the 'modern' way, in the other countries they do the ' third world' way.

"Isn't it so that every country has a powerfull rich elite enclosed in a circle of 'friends, relatives and 'acquaintances' where the main goal is to keep their power and their money? And so maybe in the modern western countries they do the 'modern' way, in the other countries they do the ' third world' way."

But isn't it true that it is a matter of degree. Thailand does it the Thai way not the third world way. Difficult to read widely on the subject I agree.

[siampolee]

Personal life

Caf.

All the hubs they come up with are fairy tales anyway.

Not surprising given Enid Blyton was Thai.

Enid Blyton was born on 11 August 1897 at 354 Lordship Lane, East Dulwich, London, England, the eldest child of Thomas Carey Blyton (1870–1920), a salesman of cutlery, and his wife, Theresa Mary Harrison (1874–1950). There were two younger brothers, Hanly (1899–1983) and Carey (1902–1976), who were born after the family had moved to the nearby suburb of Beckenham.In Oakwood Avenue. From 1907 to 1915, Blyton was educated at St. Christopher's School inBeckenham, where she excelled at her endeavours, leaving as head girl. She enjoyed physical activities along with some academic work, but not maths.

Just to put the record straight concerning Enid Blyton.

[caf]

Personal life

Caf.

All the hubs they come up with are fairy tales anyway.

Not surprising given Enid Blyton was Thai.

Enid Blyton was born on 11 August 1897 at 354 Lordship Lane, East Dulwich, London, England, the eldest child of Thomas Carey Blyton (1870–1920), a salesman of cutlery, and his wife, Theresa Mary Harrison (1874–1950). There were two younger brothers, Hanly (1899–1983) and Carey (1902–1976), who were born after the family had moved to the nearby suburb of Beckenham.In Oakwood Avenue. From 1907 to 1915, Blyton was educated at St. Christopher's School inBeckenham, where she excelled at her endeavours, leaving as head girl. She enjoyed physical activities along with some academic work, but not maths.

Just to put the record straight concerning Enid Blyton.

Absolutely correct of course. Well researched as far as it goes.

Thomas Carey Blyton was indeed a cutlery salesman as you rightly point out. But his father, Odd Job Blyton, was a small time manufacturer of neck wear for the aristocracy. His designs did not catch on, the tie business failed, and he declared himself bankrupt. He ended up in Carey Street, the London bankruptcy court, which explains why he called his son Thomas CAREY. But you can not dispute the reference to Ties, a clear indication of his original nationality.

Wilkipaedia will update as soon as possible.

[inmysights]

I am no expert in the topic corruption. I know there are important differences in Asian cultures and western cultures but when I started to learn more about Asian cultures after visiting China, Vietnam and now Thailand I got the feeling some of the difference could be merely superficial. The label of corruption means: accepting payment out of the legallity as we often can see in poorer countries, while in many western countries coruption seems to be legalised. What do I mean by that? I see in the West people getting paid for jobs completely out of reality. The upper class of people who occupy the most powerfull positions decide about salaries and payment and golden handshakes all according the legallity of law. Very often this is the case for people having a high office job in a public sector.

What to think about an income of 500.000 us dollars a year? for being the head in office of a public health office? Will they die when they would only get half of the money?

Even when they double my salary I would not have 15% of this money, but then could buy myself a nice house, probably a BMW , save money for pension and have good healthinsurance. Just to name some.

In my view it is very close to accept a salary 10 times the amount - or more - you need to have for a good life living in the west or to use your power to have your self paid by corruption 10 times or more for what you need in an asian country to have a good life.

All the money people in fact do not need is money - in fact work - people take from other people, In both cases it is cold greed, nothing else.

I wonder if there, in this view, essentially is a lot of difference between asian countries and most western countries.

Maybe Asian countries lack the organisations and the laws to regulate fair payment, in the west people are very cunning to organise and construct laws to uplevel their income to excessive (insulting) situations.

Isn't it so that every country has a powerfull rich elite enclosed in a circle of 'friends, relatives and 'acquaintances' where the main goal is to keep their power and their money? And so maybe in the modern western countries they do the 'modern' way, in the other countries they do the ' third world' way.

What you are talking about in the west is people getting paid a lot of money to do their job. They get paid whether they do something or not (until they sacked for not doing it, ofcourse).

In Thailand, you have to pay extra for someone to do their job. That is, they are getting paid to do a job, but if you want them to do it, you have to pay them extra. This isn't just because they have low salaries. Even some of the better paid staff still expect an extra payment just to do their job.

And the further up the ladder they are, the more they want.

[christiaan]

There is a differencer in degree in the way people try to make money by their power and positions between all countries.

It is however certainly not so that when the qualified people do the work of the best paid job they have to fear repercussions when doing wrong.

When they break down a company, ruin an office most of the time they get a golden handshake, pension or other beneficial arrangement, one that would take the suffering out of the complete life of every poor thai family, probaly even several families.

It is in their contract as the consequence of being sacked. They do a bad job and always accept the golden handshake. Why? cos they otherwise will die from hunger and poverty?

It is corruption to even think you are entitled to have multiple times the income people need for a good and decent life becos you are qualified.

Isn't this way of thinking the characteristic of western culture? So the thinking is corrupt?

I understand in the western systems high salaries are offered, but it telss something about individuals when they do accept it. Greed, just greed, the same "quality" you meet in degrees everywhere in the world.

[hanuman1]

During a recent conversation I had with a mid-ranking police officer working out of a central Bangkok police station he proudly highlighted the number of corrupt officers he had been responsible for uncovering and sending to jail and the reputation he had obtained by doing this. Later in the same conversation, after several more whiskies, he told me how part of his job is to ferry hundreds of thousands of baht in tea money between local businesses and his superiors.

Clean governance and corruption are not at either end of a moral spectrum here. They are just different facets of expediency in the workplace.

Edited November 5, 2010 by hanuman1

[selftaopath]

Wow, I never thought that solving corruption was as simple as everyone signing a pact. Awesome Thailand!!!!...Great Idea....and here the whole world has been trying for millenniums to solve corruption and the whole time the answer was so simple.

Awesome Thailand? Perhaps, Amusing Thailand!

[Piengrudee]

Is exam cheat a form of corruption? คำสารภาพคนโกงข้อสอบ

[GarryP]

If they bought the answers.