Hezbollah says ready for another war with Israel

[Wavefloater]

I've never been terribly political, but I am naturally curious, so I've tried to get a feel for the situation in Palestine. All I can say is that after looking at both sides of the coin, I feel very sorry for the Palestinians and have little sympathy for the Israelis. I see Israel as a rogue state with no regard for anybody else. It appears that they ignore the huge number of pleas from a multitude of people and countries to be reasonable and show compassion for others, but it seems these pleas fall on arrogantly deaf ears. I assure you that I'm not anti-Semitic and have Jewish friends, but I perhaps am becoming anti-Zionist.

Once again, I point out that I'm not a very political person. I am only telling you the impression that I (and I know a growing number of people) have regarding the situation in that part of the Middle East. I think Israel l had better seriously think about being part of the world and trying to get along with their neighbours instead of arrogantly shunning all pleas for reasonable behaviour.

You do have some valid points, but you have to keep in mind that Israel already tried compassion and it did not work and if anything backfired.

When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets.

When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers.

When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital

So compassion also has limits.

If you help out your friend and in return you do not even get a thank you but a punch in the face, would you help him/her again?!

This is not to say that Israel is an angel, but under the circumstance and constant threat and pressure, it would be hard for any Nation to do ONLY the right thing.

Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them. Perfect example is the footage of houses being destroyed and innocent people being killed, but they do not seem to mention that 24 hours prior to the area being struck, there was a non stop campaign by Israel to warn people to evacuate the area as it will be hit(leaflets dropped from the plane and phonecalls also)

They show school being hit but never mention that schools roof was used to fire rockets into Israel.

They do not show weapons tunnels under the school.

Yes many innocent got killed, but what about Israeli's when they get hit with rockets and suicide bombs, its not innocent people being killed?? and mind you with no warning.

Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets. If 1 or 2 rockets are fired Israel hardly does anything, the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week.

People can say whatever they like about the blockade, but since it was put in place, the number of rocket attacks reduced by huge number and number of suicide bombers reduced to almost none.

So who is the aggressor? and was there or is there any other way to stop never ending rocket attacks??

In what country in the world do you know of all house being built with bomb shelters-this just shows the state of mind from the Israel perspective

Of course, there is always two sides to every story, and I'm not foolish enough to think that either side is free of wrong doings or fault. I would also not be silly enough to get into a long debate or discussion about this situation as I (admittedly) don't have an intimate understanding of the all that goes on or has gone on there.

Respectfully, when news items are reported, they're always done with prejudice and some political agenda, so when the type of information is quoted as you have in your reply, I really find it hard to accept it as fact. (Just look at FOX, whose news features are laughable due to being so extremely right-winged.) Don't take what I said as challenging your credibility, as I'm not. I'm just pointing out that it's getting harder and harder to accept what mainstream media tells us to believe.

The main reason for my post was to say that a growing number us, who don't have an in-depth knowledge of the situation, are seeing it as one that doesn't look good for Israel. I can't help but feel that if something isn't done, Israeli may lose any and all support they currently have, even from the USA.

[chuckd]

In what country in the world do you know of all house being built with bomb shelters-this just shows the state of mind from the Israel perspective

That would be Switzerland.

When was the last time Switzerland was bombed?

Those are called "basements" over there.

[kuffki]

I've never been terribly political, but I am naturally curious, so I've tried to get a feel for the situation in Palestine. All I can say is that after looking at both sides of the coin, I feel very sorry for the Palestinians and have little sympathy for the Israelis. I see Israel as a rogue state with no regard for anybody else. It appears that they ignore the huge number of pleas from a multitude of people and countries to be reasonable and show compassion for others, but it seems these pleas fall on arrogantly deaf ears. I assure you that I'm not anti-Semitic and have Jewish friends, but I perhaps am becoming anti-Zionist.

Once again, I point out that I'm not a very political person. I am only telling you the impression that I (and I know a growing number of people) have regarding the situation in that part of the Middle East. I think Israel l had better seriously think about being part of the world and trying to get along with their neighbours instead of arrogantly shunning all pleas for reasonable behaviour.

You do have some valid points, but you have to keep in mind that Israel already tried compassion and it did not work and if anything backfired.

When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets.

When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers.

When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital

So compassion also has limits.

If you help out your friend and in return you do not even get a thank you but a punch in the face, would you help him/her again?!

This is not to say that Israel is an angel, but under the circumstance and constant threat and pressure, it would be hard for any Nation to do ONLY the right thing.

Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them. Perfect example is the footage of houses being destroyed and innocent people being killed, but they do not seem to mention that 24 hours prior to the area being struck, there was a non stop campaign by Israel to warn people to evacuate the area as it will be hit(leaflets dropped from the plane and phonecalls also)

They show school being hit but never mention that schools roof was used to fire rockets into Israel.

They do not show weapons tunnels under the school.

Yes many innocent got killed, but what about Israeli's when they get hit with rockets and suicide bombs, its not innocent people being killed?? and mind you with no warning.

Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets. If 1 or 2 rockets are fired Israel hardly does anything, the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week.

People can say whatever they like about the blockade, but since it was put in place, the number of rocket attacks reduced by huge number and number of suicide bombers reduced to almost none.

So who is the aggressor? and was there or is there any other way to stop never ending rocket attacks??

In what country in the world do you know of all house being built with bomb shelters-this just shows the state of mind from the Israel perspective

Of course, there is always two sides to every story, and I'm not foolish enough to think that either side is free of wrong doings or fault. I would also not be silly enough to get into a long debate or discussion about this situation as I (admittedly) don't have an intimate understanding of the all that goes on or has gone on there.

Respectfully, when news items are reported, they're always done with prejudice and some political agenda, so when the type of information is quoted as you have in your reply, I really find it hard to accept it as fact. (Just look at FOX, whose news features are laughable due to being so extremely right-winged.) Don't take what I said as challenging your credibility, as I'm not. I'm just pointing out that it's getting harder and harder to accept what mainstream media tells us to believe.

The main reason for my post was to say that a growing number us, who don't have an in-depth knowledge of the situation, are seeing it as one that doesn't look good for Israel. I can't help but feel that if something isn't done, Israeli may lose any and all support they currently have, even from the USA.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an civil discussion or debate on the matter, so no offense is taken:)

But before you make your final decision, just see even the headline of this thread and what words were used(not by TV but by the original news agency)

"Hezbollah says ready for another war with Israel" Israel has not made any threats or actions against Lebanon. Hezbollah pretty much declares war to Israel for no reason at all, just because they feel like it, because what they believe.

PS. Despite their claims of winning the last one, i am sure Israel did do huge damage, because Hezbullah has been silent for years since the war, restocking their arsenal.

PPS. Should they attack, which i have a feeling they will, innocent Lebanese will suffer again, but Israel must defend its own people also

"In addition, Nasrallah referred to the progress and developments in the UN Special Tribunal for Lebanon, in charge of investigating the 2005 assassination of the then Lebanon’s Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

The Hezbollah leader denied any involvement of his group in the murder and added that they will not tolerate any accusation against any member or leader of the organization. He said that they "will cut the hand" of anyone who attempt to arrest a Hezbollah member on this issue." So they pretty much threatened the entire world should anyone say anything bad about them or arrest its members for some crime. He is declaring war on UN, that same UN that has helped them in the past from being totally demolished.

"When we face dangerous and new junctures, we have to call to mind the previous stages to build on them means of confrontation and hence our options and positions come righteous," Hezbollah's leader said. Not only there is no threat from Israel but he wants to have a war and believes that war is the only solution to the problem

With all of the above, i see it very hard for a country to just stand by and do nothing. The problem is once they do, this is when they get condemned, yet no one seems to have a problem with a statement this morons make.

I do not think(but i could be wrong) i heard on any news before of Israel taking first offensive actions. It is always defensive. and this is when the media jumps in, but why there is no big news on the media about statements like this made by the terrorist organization? and with statements like this, there is no way they can try to claim they are a peaceful movement to protect the country.

The worst part about this all is that Koran does not teach anything what this moron of a leader preaches, he interprets it to accomodate the agenda. Speaking to any respectable Sheik, they all agree but many times are silenced.

I am in no way trying to persuade you to change sides or your position but merely trying to show you what is NOT so obvious to the eye

[orangezeke]

I've never been terribly political, but I am naturally curious, so I've tried to get a feel for the situation in Palestine. All I can say is that after looking at both sides of the coin, I feel very sorry for the Palestinians and have little sympathy for the Israelis. I see Israel as a rogue state with no regard for anybody else. It appears that they ignore the huge number of pleas from a multitude of people and countries to be reasonable and show compassion for others, but it seems these pleas fall on arrogantly deaf ears. I assure you that I'm not anti-Semitic and have Jewish friends, but I perhaps am becoming anti-Zionist.

Once again, I point out that I'm not a very political person. I am only telling you the impression that I (and I know a growing number of people) have regarding the situation in that part of the Middle East. I think Israel l had better seriously think about being part of the world and trying to get along with their neighbours instead of arrogantly shunning all pleas for reasonable behaviour.

You do have some valid points, but you have to keep in mind that Israel already tried compassion and it did not work and if anything backfired.

When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets.

When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers.

When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital

So compassion also has limits.

If you help out your friend and in return you do not even get a thank you but a punch in the face, would you help him/her again?!

This is not to say that Israel is an angel, but under the circumstance and constant threat and pressure, it would be hard for any Nation to do ONLY the right thing.

Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them. Perfect example is the footage of houses being destroyed and innocent people being killed, but they do not seem to mention that 24 hours prior to the area being struck, there was a non stop campaign by Israel to warn people to evacuate the area as it will be hit(leaflets dropped from the plane and phonecalls also)

They show school being hit but never mention that schools roof was used to fire rockets into Israel.

They do not show weapons tunnels under the school.

Yes many innocent got killed, but what about Israeli's when they get hit with rockets and suicide bombs, its not innocent people being killed?? and mind you with no warning.

Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets. If 1 or 2 rockets are fired Israel hardly does anything, the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week.

People can say whatever they like about the blockade, but since it was put in place, the number of rocket attacks reduced by huge number and number of suicide bombers reduced to almost none.

So who is the aggressor? and was there or is there any other way to stop never ending rocket attacks??

In what country in the world do you know of all house being built with bomb shelters-this just shows the state of mind from the Israel perspective

Of course, there is always two sides to every story, and I'm not foolish enough to think that either side is free of wrong doings or fault. I would also not be silly enough to get into a long debate or discussion about this situation as I (admittedly) don't have an intimate understanding of the all that goes on or has gone on there.

Respectfully, when news items are reported, they're always done with prejudice and some political agenda, so when the type of information is quoted as you have in your reply, I really find it hard to accept it as fact. (Just look at FOX, whose news features are laughable due to being so extremely right-winged.) Don't take what I said as challenging your credibility, as I'm not. I'm just pointing out that it's getting harder and harder to accept what mainstream media tells us to believe.

The main reason for my post was to say that a growing number us, who don't have an in-depth knowledge of the situation, are seeing it as one that doesn't look good for Israel. I can't help but feel that if something isn't done, Israeli may lose any and all support they currently have, even from the USA.

this is a fair post, and i think your second paragraph is key. a glasgow university report found that television broadcasters were six times as likely to present israeli attacks as "retaliating" or in some way hitting back as palestinian attacks. this caused many viewers to believe that the palestinians were to blame for the conflict.

kuffki's post on the other hand is based on generalities and misinformation.

"When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets." when did this happen ? what were the circumstances ? if you reply please do so in context.

"When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers." which settlements ? when did this happen ? what were the circumstances ?

"When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital". if you are referring to yitzhak rabin, this is just stupid. he was killed by a right wing israeli ! your comparison to being punched in the face by a friend is inaccurate in this case - more like punching yourself in the face !

"Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them." I think it is fair to say both sides know how to play this game.

"Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets" June 9 2006, israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on beit lahiya beach. 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.

"the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week." even at the height of the intifada, an estimated 30 qassam rockets were fired in the space of a week. to date, 22 israelis have been killed as a result of rocket fire.

"People can say whatever they like about the blockade" People are saying what they like. And like Wavefloater, they are saying enough is enough. stop the craziness.

Edited November 12, 2010 by orangezeke

[kuffki]

In what country in the world do you know of all house being built with bomb shelters-this just shows the state of mind from the Israel perspective

That would be Switzerland.

I can not help but wonder when you will stop to post nuisance.

None and i mean none of your posts have any facts, truth or historic facts.

Please do some reading about history before you start to post incorrect information.

PS. I am still waiting on some photo's or names of the concentration camps that you personally saw in Israel

[hobanse]

Nothing changes in 3000 years! 3000 yaers ago Canaan, today Palestine

when God called forth his people out of slavery in Egypt and back to the land of their forefathers, he directed them to kill all the Canaanite clans who were living in the land (Deut. 7.1-2; 20.16-18). The destruction was to be complete: every man, woman, and child was to be killed. The book of Joshua tells the story of Israel’s carrying out God’s command in city after city throughout Canaan.

[kuffki]

I've never been terribly political, but I am naturally curious, so I've tried to get a feel for the situation in Palestine. All I can say is that after looking at both sides of the coin, I feel very sorry for the Palestinians and have little sympathy for the Israelis. I see Israel as a rogue state with no regard for anybody else. It appears that they ignore the huge number of pleas from a multitude of people and countries to be reasonable and show compassion for others, but it seems these pleas fall on arrogantly deaf ears. I assure you that I'm not anti-Semitic and have Jewish friends, but I perhaps am becoming anti-Zionist.

Once again, I point out that I'm not a very political person. I am only telling you the impression that I (and I know a growing number of people) have regarding the situation in that part of the Middle East. I think Israel l had better seriously think about being part of the world and trying to get along with their neighbours instead of arrogantly shunning all pleas for reasonable behaviour.

You do have some valid points, but you have to keep in mind that Israel already tried compassion and it did not work and if anything backfired.

When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets.

When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers.

When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital

So compassion also has limits.

If you help out your friend and in return you do not even get a thank you but a punch in the face, would you help him/her again?!

This is not to say that Israel is an angel, but under the circumstance and constant threat and pressure, it would be hard for any Nation to do ONLY the right thing.

Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them. Perfect example is the footage of houses being destroyed and innocent people being killed, but they do not seem to mention that 24 hours prior to the area being struck, there was a non stop campaign by Israel to warn people to evacuate the area as it will be hit(leaflets dropped from the plane and phonecalls also)

They show school being hit but never mention that schools roof was used to fire rockets into Israel.

They do not show weapons tunnels under the school.

Yes many innocent got killed, but what about Israeli's when they get hit with rockets and suicide bombs, its not innocent people being killed?? and mind you with no warning.

Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets. If 1 or 2 rockets are fired Israel hardly does anything, the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week.

People can say whatever they like about the blockade, but since it was put in place, the number of rocket attacks reduced by huge number and number of suicide bombers reduced to almost none.

So who is the aggressor? and was there or is there any other way to stop never ending rocket attacks??

In what country in the world do you know of all house being built with bomb shelters-this just shows the state of mind from the Israel perspective

Of course, there is always two sides to every story, and I'm not foolish enough to think that either side is free of wrong doings or fault. I would also not be silly enough to get into a long debate or discussion about this situation as I (admittedly) don't have an intimate understanding of the all that goes on or has gone on there.

Respectfully, when news items are reported, they're always done with prejudice and some political agenda, so when the type of information is quoted as you have in your reply, I really find it hard to accept it as fact. (Just look at FOX, whose news features are laughable due to being so extremely right-winged.) Don't take what I said as challenging your credibility, as I'm not. I'm just pointing out that it's getting harder and harder to accept what mainstream media tells us to believe.

The main reason for my post was to say that a growing number us, who don't have an in-depth knowledge of the situation, are seeing it as one that doesn't look good for Israel. I can't help but feel that if something isn't done, Israeli may lose any and all support they currently have, even from the USA.

this is a fair post, and i think your second paragraph is key. a glasgow university report found that television broadcasters were six times as likely to present israeli attacks as "retaliating" or in some way hitting back as palestinian attacks. this caused many viewers to believe that the palestinians were to blame for the conflict.

kuffki's post on the other hand is based on generalities and misinformation.

"When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets." when did this happen ? what were the circumstances ? if you reply please do so in context.

"When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers." which settlements ? when did this happen ? what were the circumstances ?

"When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital". if you are referring to yitzhak rabin, this is just stupid. he was killed by a right wing israeli ! your comparison to being punched in the face by a friend is inaccurate in this case - more like punching yourself in the face !

"Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them." I think it is fair to say both sides know how to play this game.

"Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets" June 9, israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on beit lahiya beach. 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.

"the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week." even at the height of the intifada, an estimated 30 qassam rockets were fired in the space of a week. to date, 22 israelis have been killed as a result of rocket fire.

"People can say whatever they like about the blockade" People are saying what they like. And like Wavefloater, they are saying enough is enough. stop the craziness.

i hope your post was a joke

When Israel pulled out from Gaza, rather then a thank you got bombarded with rockets." when did this happen ? what were the circumstances ? if you reply please do so in context. When what happened? when Israel pulled out from Gaza or when the rockets started? rockets have not stopped until the blockade was put in place

"When Israel stopped some settlements, in return got more and more suicide bombers." which settlements ? when did this happen ? what were the circumstances ?You seriously need to read some news for the past 10 years or so. What circumstance do you need to see? When a suicide bomber walked into a cade in Ntania and blew himself up? or the one where one got on the school bus and did the same?

"When Israel agreed to most demands(the PM was shot) Palestinians started to demand for Jerusalem to be their capital". if you are referring to yitzhak rabin, this is just stupid. he was killed by a right wing israeli ! your comparison to being punched in the face by a friend is inaccurate in this case - more like punching yourself in the face !LOL, and why was he killed by right win Israeli? because he agreed to almost all demands. and the fact remains when almost all were met, they still wanted Jerusalem as the capital and still till now they do, even though they have no right to it(which already has been proven for you by other member)

"Palestinians are good at pretending and making everyone feel sorry for them." I think it is fair to say both sides know how to play this game. Yes Israeli's fire rockets from schools so it perfectly justifiable to just fire rockets into Israel just to hit and kill anyone for the sake of killing. Do they do any targeting or aiming or just fire and hope it kills some people?

"Israel does not run random strikes without even aiming but only responds to the rockets" June 9, israeli shells killed seven members of the same family picnicking on beit lahiya beach. 32 others were wounded, including 13 children. And why Did Israel drop shells on that area? just for fun?

"the only time they respond is when they get 100 rockets in 1 week." even at the height of the intifada, an estimated 30 qassam rockets were fired in the space of a week. to date, 22 israelis have been killed as a result of rocket fire. According to whom? Hezbullah news? What incident are you referring to? Rockets fired from where? Rocket attacks are almost daily occurrence.PS. Qassam rockets are not the only rockets being fired into Israel

"People can say whatever they like about the blockade" People are saying what they like. And like Wavefloater, they are saying enough is enough. stop the craziness. Perhaps when you live in the country like Israel, under constant threat and attacks, or have your family members and friends killed randomly or kidnapped , only then you can what is enough. But siting on a big sofa where everything is warm and shiny really does not give anyone the right to say what is enough and what is crazy

[kuffki]

Nothing changes in 3000 years! 3000 yaers ago Canaan, today Palestine

when God called forth his people out of slavery in Egypt and back to the land of their forefathers, he directed them to kill all the Canaanite clans who were living in the land (Deut. 7.1-2; 20.16-18). The destruction was to be complete: every man, woman, and child was to be killed. The book of Joshua tells the story of Israel's carrying out God's command in city after city throughout Canaan.

What book would that be? Tora? or Bible or Koran? Was that your personal interpretation of what the book says?Because in all 3 cases it takes years if not life time of study to be able to interprete the books and then each rabbi or priest or sheik have their own interpretation and always argue whose is correct.

So unless you have managed to master something that takes years in few hours, i would love to hear more about that "book" and what else did you learn to change the histroy

[orangezeke]

my post was not a joke.

i asked for clarification of your generalities. you reply with more.

point 1. incredibly, you have asked me when it was that you were referring to ! your generalities have confused even yourself.

point 2. you said that more suicide bombers attacked following settlements being stopped. i am asking for you to provide evidence there is a correlation between the two. you provide 2 instances of suicide bombs which no one denies and i think everyone deplores. but im saying they did not happen as a result of the cessation of settlement construction. saying otherwise is as i described 'misinformation'.

point 3. like i said...a stupid example. you have used a domestic event to strengthen your claim for futher supression of a group on an international stage.

point 4. see point 2 where you've use examples of tragedies to elicit a false outcome. israel is well served with this tactic.

point 5. you have asked me the questions i was actually hoping you would have the answers to. at any rate, the example of indiscriminate murder quashes your claim that 'israel does not run random strikes. that event happened june 9. if you need further evidence, in that same month, june 13, an israeli plane fired a missile into a busy gaza city street, killing 11 people, including two children and two medics. in that same month on june 20, the israeli army killed three palestinian children and injured 15 others in gaza with a missile attack. in that same month on june 21, the israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children. now please, feel free to answer your own questions.

point 6. lets not forget, this was a reply to your claim. i will show you my sources (which include guardian/wikipedia) when you show me that 100 rockets were ever fired in 1 week. please provide information that shows more than 22 israelis have been killed by rockets, qassam or otherwise fired into israel. "Since Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 'til today, the estimates run between 7,000 and 9,000 heavy artillery shells have been shot and fired into Gaza. On the Palestinian side, the estimates are approximately 1,000 Kassam missiles, crude missiles, have been fired into Israel. So we have a ratio of between seven and nine to one." Norman Finkelstein, July 2006

point 7. i actually laughed out loud when i read your use of the word 'kidnapped'. why do israeli militants 'detain' and 'arrest', whereas palestinian militants 'kidnap'?

we can back and forth about these issues because much is opinion based, but points 5 & 6 are based in fact. truth. if you can't get that right the rest is just rubbish.

[SergeiY]

Jewish people invade and occupy a foreign country

Lock the original inhabitants into concentration camps, beat, kill and bomb them.

They are shocked and surprised when the original inhabitants and the surrounding nations don't appear to like them very much.

I've been in Israel, I've seen the camps, I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

There appears to be something wrong with this world!

This coming from the person that had the rudeness to post in the Rembrance Day thread and disrespect the allied veterans? You showed absolute contempt and disrespect for people that put their lives on the line and you now pipe in here? You aren't satisfied insulting all the millions of people that died so you could sit there and spew nonsense?

The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated. ...

...

I read the comments in the other topic and i must say that Sarahsbloke is a pacifist and there is nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is that cult of dead soldiers and how even the youngest children are pushed to take part in that dead soldier cult. Its nothing learnt from it. Being a soldier is a deadly profession, so don't complain if you die; the only true heroes are war resisters and deserters.

While 'concentration camp' is maybe not the best word to chose, basically sarahsbloke is here right too. the Zionists or the zionist movement is an European idea/concept. Some religious pathos and pseudo historically myth of living over 2000 years in the diaspora and now having finally the homecoming to the land that was promised to them by god.

So in the end of the 19 early 20 century jews from Europe started a settlement movement back 'home'. Nothing more than a kind of colonialism. they came as new immigrants, but they dont wanted to integrate in the society over there, but to take everything over and establish themselves as the new ruler. calling it invasion is not that wrong.

[Wallaby]

Sergei, totally agree. Israel should stop the provocation.

[Ulysses G.]

I think Israel l had better seriously think about being part of the world and trying to get along with their neighbours instead of arrogantly shunning all pleas for reasonable behaviour.

You mean like trading land for peace? They have already done that and offered the Palestinian Arabs peace over and over again - only to have it rejected.

As long as they are in a state of permanent war, it would be suicidal to be "reasonable" with a sworn enemy.

“If the terrorists laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace; if Israel laid down its arms tomorrow, there would be genocide.”

[kuffki]

Jewish people invade and occupy a foreign country

Lock the original inhabitants into concentration camps, beat, kill and bomb them.

They are shocked and surprised when the original inhabitants and the surrounding nations don't appear to like them very much.

I've been in Israel, I've seen the camps, I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

There appears to be something wrong with this world!

This coming from the person that had the rudeness to post in the Rembrance Day thread and disrespect the allied veterans? You showed absolute contempt and disrespect for people that put their lives on the line and you now pipe in here? You aren't satisfied insulting all the millions of people that died so you could sit there and spew nonsense?

The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated. ...

...

I read the comments in the other topic and i must say that Sarahsbloke is a pacifist and there is nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is that cult of dead soldiers and how even the youngest children are pushed to take part in that dead soldier cult. Its nothing learnt from it. Being a soldier is a deadly profession, so don't complain if you die; the only true heroes are war resisters and deserters.

While 'concentration camp' is maybe not the best word to chose, basically sarahsbloke is here right too. the Zionists or the zionist movement is an European idea/concept. Some religious pathos and pseudo historically myth of living over 2000 years in the diaspora and now having finally the homecoming to the land that was promised to them by god.

So in the end of the 19 early 20 century jews from Europe started a settlement movement back 'home'. Nothing more than a kind of colonialism. they came as new immigrants, but they dont wanted to integrate in the society over there, but to take everything over and establish themselves as the new ruler. calling it invasion is not that wrong.

Your post is a straight out policy and attitude of Russia. Can you not write a post with your own opinion based on all the facts not only the ones fed to you by Russian government?

The only reason why Russia is against Israel is because USA is pro Israel.

Just like Russia is friends with Cuba because USA is not, same goes for China and N Korea.

Any country where USA is a friend, Russia always find that country's enemy and supports them

So Russian propaganda has nothing to do with its beliefs but rather anything to oppose USA

At the same time,please explain why Jews were always discriminated in Russia and could never hold a top management job even though they were best suited for it. Why Jews were given a small autonomy in the north when they are people of south. Its like moving Africans to Alaska

[tmd5855]

Do not wish to multi quote but one item I have not seen raised/posted is the "Oslo Accords" signed by Rabin and Arafat.

This gave Arafat 95% of his demands, these being:

1) The return of refugees

2) Freeing of selected political/criminal prisoners.

3) Abandoning of settlements, freeze on building.

4) Sharing of Jeruselem.

5) withdrawl of all military forces from Gaza.

6) Gaza and West bank self rule.

7) International airport could in Gaza could re-open

There were many, many others that Rabin signed up too, in doing so he signed his own death warrant. Later a right wing israeli shot and killed him.

Arafat signed the accords in Oslo, offered his hand to Rabin (Rabin was uncomfortable, see TV footage) and shook his hand.

Everyone thought it was peace at last.

Saudi, Egypt and Jordan expressed their own satisfaction on the accords, Saudi offered aid on a large scale.

Arafat went back to Gaza and for whatever his reasons changed his mind and launched the childrens Infinatda.

This prompted the saying.

"Peace"? "Arafat never misses the chance to miss an opportunity"

The rest we all know, Israel quoting Arafat turned their backs on the accords, but they still pulled their forces out of Gaza.

[tmd5855]

Do not wish to multi quote but one item I have not seen raised/posted is the "Oslo Accords" signed by Rabin and Arafat.

This gave Arafat 95% of his demands, these being:

1) The return of refugees

2) Freeing of selected political/criminal prisoners.

3) Abandoning of settlements, freeze on building.

4) Sharing of Jeruselem.

5) withdrawl of all military forces from Gaza.

6) Gaza and West bank self rule.

7) International airport could in Gaza could re-open

There were many, many others that Rabin signed up too, in doing so he signed his own death warrant. Later a right wing israeli shot and killed him.

Arafat signed the accords in Oslo, offered his hand to Rabin (Rabin was uncomfortable, see TV footage) and shook his hand.

Everyone thought it was peace at last.

Saudi, Egypt and Jordan expressed their own satisfaction on the accords, Saudi offered aid on a large scale.

Arafat went back to Gaza and for whatever his reasons changed his mind and launched the childrens Infinatda.

This prompted the saying.

"Peace"? "Arafat never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

The rest we all know, Israel quoting Arafat turned their backs on the accords, but they still pulled their forces out of Gaza.

[kuffki]

my post was not a joke.

i asked for clarification of your generalities. you reply with more.

point 1. incredibly, you have asked me when it was that you were referring to ! your generalities have confused even yourself.

point 2. you said that more suicide bombers attacked following settlements being stopped. i am asking for you to provide evidence there is a correlation between the two. you provide 2 instances of suicide bombs which no one denies and i think everyone deplores. but im saying they did not happen as a result of the cessation of settlement construction. saying otherwise is as i described 'misinformation'.

point 3. like i said...a stupid example. you have used a domestic event to strengthen your claim for futher supression of a group on an international stage.

point 4. see point 2 where you've use examples of tragedies to elicit a false outcome. israel is well served with this tactic.

point 5. you have asked me the questions i was actually hoping you would have the answers to. at any rate, the example of indiscriminate murder quashes your claim that 'israel does not run random strikes. that event happened june 9. if you need further evidence, in that same month, june 13, an israeli plane fired a missile into a busy gaza city street, killing 11 people, including two children and two medics. in that same month on june 20, the israeli army killed three palestinian children and injured 15 others in gaza with a missile attack. in that same month on june 21, the israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children. now please, feel free to answer your own questions.

point 6. lets not forget, this was a reply to your claim. i will show you my sources (which include guardian/wikipedia) when you show me that 100 rockets were ever fired in 1 week. please provide information that shows more than 22 israelis have been killed by rockets, qassam or otherwise fired into israel. "Since Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 'til today, the estimates run between 7,000 and 9,000 heavy artillery shells have been shot and fired into Gaza. On the Palestinian side, the estimates are approximately 1,000 Kassam missiles, crude missiles, have been fired into Israel. So we have a ratio of between seven and nine to one." Norman Finkelstein, July 2006

point 7. i actually laughed out loud when i read your use of the word 'kidnapped'. why do israeli militants 'detain' and 'arrest', whereas palestinian militants 'kidnap'?

we can back and forth about these issues because much is opinion based, but points 5 & 6 are based in fact. truth. if you can't get that right the rest is just rubbish.

To make it short and simple. I do not have the links to all the news from years ago.

I do however see that for you to even accept the truth is beyond reasonable, just for one fact alone that rockets and suicide bombers only stopped when blockade was imposed,

So even assuming that i do not have any back up to my facts, one fact remains that rocket attacks and suicide bombers continued throughout the years despite Israel pulling out from Gaza, Israel giving in to many demands (irrespective f you like it or not, but PM was killed just for that) , and Palestinians demanding Jerusalem to be given to them.

I have no idea how you could even deny that, keeping in mind that all attacks are reported by BBC or CNN, but if you are that interested in Israel, i suggest you follow Israeli press which reports every attack or suicide bomb, but i really doubt you have much interest and more interested in bashing it.

Being put in jail and kidnapped when no one knows your whereabouts or has any rights to even visit is 2 very different things and if you can not comprehend that i really do not see a point even trying to debate on this topic with you.

Talking about point 6 of your post, according to your stats with that much fire power on such a small piece of land which is so densely populated with over 1 000 000 people- half if not more people in Gaza should of been killed.

The only reason why only 22 people were killed according to some source(which i mind you is so wrong that its not even worth going into) is because Israel spends 50% of its budget on defense and has everything possible in place to defend itself so people are warned as the rockets are being fired.

Can you find a link where Palestinians claim they target military or government buildings? i can not, possibly because they do not. They target innocent civilians and really could not care less who they kill.

How can you possibly defend someone who refuses to recognize other people's right to exist????????

Do you see Israel making statements like this headline that Israel is ready for war and in not so many words wants one?

Do you see Israel threatening UN to cut anyones hands or heads should investigation prove something they do not like?

You keep saying Israel strike on some days and for the 3rd time, i am telling that Israel only responds to rocket attacks or known weapons storage.

Rest assured if Israel just did a strike for no reason and evidence to support it, it not only would of made the world news but had enough people like yourself condemning.

The only condemnation that came out and always comes out is for the death of innocent people, but no one condemns the reason for a strike .

For the 3rd time, if school or kindergarden or a condo is used to fire rockets or store them, this is the target that gets hit. If they have no problem allowing terrorists to use their premises as a rocket launcher base knowing the consequences-i am sorry but there is no one to blame.

Yes sometimes strikes miss the target and sometimes hit near by, but this by no means a regular occurrence and again always people in the area are warned of the strike and advised to evacuated the area. This is done by phone calls, sms and leaflets dropped by the planes.

Since Israel is so bad, can you please explain why all the taxes collected from Palestinians living and working in Israel and there are over 1 million of them is given to Palestine Government??? If you need evidence for that, just visit Israel and speak to their tax office.

Since Israel is so bad, can you please explain why there is a law which is very strictly enforced not to discriminate or speak bad about Arab-Israeli's?again if you need evidence, just visit Israel and say something bad about Arabs in public and see what happens to you.

As Ulysses said in post 42

“If the terrorists laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace; if Israel laid down its arms tomorrow, there would be genocide.”

[kuffki]

Do not wish to multi quote but one item I have not seen raised/posted is the "Oslo Accords" signed by Rabin and Arafat.

This gave Arafat 95% of his demands, these being:

1) The return of refugees

2) Freeing of selected political/criminal prisoners.

3) Abandoning of settlements, freeze on building.

4) Sharing of Jeruselem.

5) withdrawl of all military forces from Gaza.

6) Gaza and West bank self rule.

7) International airport could in Gaza could re-open

There were many, many others that Rabin signed up too, in doing so he signed his own death warrant. Later a right wing israeli shot and killed him.

Arafat signed the accords in Oslo, offered his hand to Rabin (Rabin was uncomfortable, see TV footage) and shook his hand.

Everyone thought it was peace at last.

Saudi, Egypt and Jordan expressed their own satisfaction on the accords, Saudi offered aid on a large scale.

Arafat went back to Gaza and for whatever his reasons changed his mind and launched the childrens Infinatda.

This prompted the saying.

"Peace"? "Arafat never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

The rest we all know, Israel quoting Arafat turned their backs on the accords, but they still pulled their forces out of Gaza.

Sadly i have raised it(just not in so much detail-thank you) but apparently its not enough for some people and its a domestic problem, and links are needed cause its all misinformation.

PS. Even with 95% of the demands being met rockets and bombs did not stop.i am sure even if 200% was given it still will not be good enough, because at the end of the day they do not recognize Israel and want to see nothing but destruction of it.

[SergeiY]

Jewish people invade and occupy a foreign country

Lock the original inhabitants into concentration camps, beat, kill and bomb them.

They are shocked and surprised when the original inhabitants and the surrounding nations don't appear to like them very much.

I've been in Israel, I've seen the camps, I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

There appears to be something wrong with this world!

This coming from the person that had the rudeness to post in the Rembrance Day thread and disrespect the allied veterans? You showed absolute contempt and disrespect for people that put their lives on the line and you now pipe in here? You aren't satisfied insulting all the millions of people that died so you could sit there and spew nonsense?

The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated. ...

...

I read the comments in the other topic and i must say that Sarahsbloke is a pacifist and there is nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is that cult of dead soldiers and how even the youngest children are pushed to take part in that dead soldier cult. Its nothing learnt from it. Being a soldier is a deadly profession, so don't complain if you die; the only true heroes are war resisters and deserters.

While 'concentration camp' is maybe not the best word to chose, basically sarahsbloke is here right too. the Zionists or the zionist movement is an European idea/concept. Some religious pathos and pseudo historically myth of living over 2000 years in the diaspora and now having finally the homecoming to the land that was promised to them by god.

So in the end of the 19 early 20 century jews from Europe started a settlement movement back 'home'. Nothing more than a kind of colonialism. they came as new immigrants, but they dont wanted to integrate in the society over there, but to take everything over and establish themselves as the new ruler. calling it invasion is not that wrong.

Your post is a straight out policy and attitude of Russia. Can you not write a post with your own opinion based on all the facts not only the ones fed to you by Russian government?

The only reason why Russia is against Israel is because USA is pro Israel.

Just like Russia is friends with Cuba because USA is not, same goes for China and N Korea.

Any country where USA is a friend, Russia always find that country's enemy and supports them

So Russian propaganda has nothing to do with its beliefs but rather anything to oppose USA

At the same time,please explain why Jews were always discriminated in Russia and could never hold a top management job even though they were best suited for it. Why Jews were given a small autonomy in the north when they are people of south. Its like moving Africans to Alaska

Russia??? What has Russia do with it? Wanna fight the cold war with me because my nickname sounds somewhat Russian to you?

I am discussing zionism in reply to the line "The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated."

True is there always lived jews in that area, since ages. and so lived Palestinians there, Arabs, Muslims, Christians. And true is also that there was no established Palestinian state or Palestinian country on that territory. But also no Jewish state.

And the idea for the state Israel wasn't born in Jerusalem by some locals, but in a middle Europe of the 19 century. At a time where the powers more or less shifted from kings and dynasty rulers to parliaments and nation states became en vogue , see the 1848s revolutions in Europe. At the same time the colonial expansion was in its last stage and everyone hurried up to get his part of Africa.

In this context we must see Zionism. But while the Hungarians, the Serbs, in Bosnia and Herzegovina could claim more autonomy and self-determination, or the Germans got their unified state, there was no place, no territory to claim for Jews. They lived all over the world, a minority everywhere but not a big community together. They faced threats like the antisemitism, programs and were treated over many centuries only as second class citizen.

Another threat (in the eyes of the zionists) was the cultural assimilation, with the bourgeoisie gaining more power, jews had the chance to leave the medieval ghetto and to "integrate" what at this time meant to give up their religion and culture and convert to Christian believes, become German or Austrian. That it was still hard to integrate for jew is another point, important is hat they with this step were lost for the idea of a the jewish nationality.

The Zionist movement saw the answer to the this threats in the creation of a own nation state and in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism and their history myth the optioned for Palestine as the place to go.

And so it started. the settler colonialism with to goal to create Israel. And again in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism, their religious myth and the Zionist ignored the fact that at their chosen place already other people lived. And with the typical ignorance of these European towards other cultures the coming conflicts were predictable.

- At the same time,please explain why Jews were always discriminated in Russia and could never hold a top management job even though they were best suited for it.

I don't really get your point here.

Can you differentiate between the Jews as members of a religious group(or probably also as a ethnic group) and the state Israel and the politics of Israel?

Of course i know in Russia and also in the Soviet Union Jews got discriminated. Why should it my job to explain this. Antisemitism we can find allover the world, it exist also in the West, also in the USA in the pre WW2 times. Why you have to point here specially at Russia, because of my name? I am not a proud Russian, i am lacking a patriotic feeling for that state nor i see a point why i should be in the position to explain the things that Russia does wrong here in this thread at this topic. In Russia they would probably call me a безродный космополит , because i am a cosmopolitan and not a nationalist.

I am an individual, don't want belong to any religious group or movement that feels the urge to separate themselves from others. i like to get my inputs from as many different sources and cultures as possible.

- Why Jews were given a small autonomy in the north when they are people of south. Its like moving Africans to Alaska

What is this about? Why do you want send the 'Jews' to the South and argue that is the place where they belong.

Let them be everywhere. A 'Jewish nationality' or a 'Jewish ethnicity' is just a man made social construction

[kuffki]

Russia??? What has Russia do with it? Wanna fight the cold war with me because my nickname sounds somewhat Russian to you?

I am discussing zionism in reply to the line "The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated."

True is there always lived jews in that area, since ages. and so lived Palestinians there, Arabs, Muslims, Christians. And true is also that there was no established Palestinian state or Palestinian country on that territory. But also no Jewish state.

And the idea for the state Israel wasn't born in Jerusalem by some locals, but in a middle Europe of the 19 century. At a time where the powers more or less shifted from kings and dynasty rulers to parliaments and nation states became en vogue , see the 1848s revolutions in Europe. At the same time the colonial expansion was in its last stage and everyone hurried up to get his part of Africa.

In this context we must see Zionism. But while the Hungarians, the Serbs, in Bosnia and Herzegovina could claim more autonomy and self-determination, or the Germans got their unified state, there was no place, no territory to claim for Jews. They lived all over the world, a minority everywhere but not a big community together. They faced threats like the antisemitism, programs and were treated over many centuries only as second class citizen.

Another threat (in the eyes of the zionists) was the cultural assimilation, with the bourgeoisie gaining more power, jews had the chance to leave the medieval ghetto and to "integrate" what at this time meant to give up their religion and culture and convert to Christian believes, become German or Austrian. That it was still hard to integrate for jew is another point, important is hat they with this step were lost for the idea of a the jewish nationality.

The Zionist movement saw the answer to the this threats in the creation of a own nation state and in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism and their history myth the optioned for Palestine as the place to go.

And so it started. the settler colonialism with to goal to create Israel. And again in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism, their religious myth and the Zionist ignored the fact that at their chosen place already other people lived. And with the typical ignorance of these European towards other cultures the coming conflicts were predictable.

- At the same time,please explain why Jews were always discriminated in Russia and could never hold a top management job even though they were best suited for it.

I don't really get your point here.

Can you differentiate between the Jews as members of a religious group(or probably also as a ethnic group) and the state Israel and the politics of Israel?

Of course i know in Russia and also in the Soviet Union Jews got discriminated. Why should it my job to explain this. Antisemitism we can find allover the world, it exist also in the West, also in the USA in the pre WW2 times. Why you have to point here specially at Russia, because of my name? I am not a proud Russian, i am lacking a patriotic feeling for that state nor i see a point why i should be in the position to explain the things that Russia does wrong here in this thread at this topic. In Russia they would probably call me a безродный космополит , because i am a cosmopolitan and not a nationalist.

I am an individual, don't want belong to any religious group or movement that feels the urge to separate themselves from others. i like to get my inputs from as many different sources and cultures as possible.

- Why Jews were given a small autonomy in the north when they are people of south. Its like moving Africans to Alaska

What is this about? Why do you want send the 'Jews' to the South and argue that is the place where they belong.

Let them be everywhere. A 'Jewish nationality' or a 'Jewish ethnicity' is just a man made social construction

Read some history books again but this time written by Western authors before you start to come out with this rubbish. Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years and was also called Kingdom of Judea and Israel, then Judea/Samaria/Galilee-and kept changing depending on who ruled it.

Around 2000 BC, Semitic people, the Hebrews, headed by Abraham, passed through Canaan on their way south. About 1300 BC Hebrew tribes under the leadership of Moses returned from Egypt and engaged in wars with the Canaanite tribes for possession of the land. The Philistines in the south, the Canaanites (Jebusites), Phoenicians, Amorites, and Hittites in the north resisted the Hebrew (Israelite) . Four centuries later, the Israelites, under David, were successful in uniting the Hebrew nation, conquering and substantially absorbing the Canaanites. From this point, Israelites, Philistines, Hittites, and Canaanites mixed races and have subsequently been a racially mixed, Semitic people.

The first Jewish dispersion occurred in 586 BC under the rule of the Chaldaeans (Babylonia), with thousands forced into exile to Babylon until the reconstruction in Palestine of a new Jewish state after 538 BC. During the Babylonia captivity, the Jews developed ideas and institutions that were subsequently to form the foundation of Jewish political and social life after the second dispersion in 135 AD. In 67 BC, a rebellion headed by Judas Maccabeus restored the Jewish state. However, the invincible Roman Empire seized Jerusalem and subdued the Jewish tribes in 63. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the Jews were expelled in 135 AD. All of Judea was destroyed, 985 towns and villages burned, and 50 fortresses razed to the ground.

Jews were forced to leave their land and were also expelled from England in 1290, France in 1392, and from Spain the same year of Columbus' voyage in 1492 looking for India. They were then expelled from Portugal in 1497. They attempted, with varying responses, to live throughout Europe, including Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Hungary, Turkey, Morocco, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.

But the origins and roots go back way before that

I did not see you have a problem on all other threads attacking USA and defending everything Russia did and do in regards to Victor Bout but now all over sudden your opinion and relation to Russia has changed-funny that.

PS. Bottom line is Israel has just as much right to exist as any other country or state or people. However for as long as they continue to refuse to recognize Israel and jewish people right to exist, the conflict will never end. So the whole problem could be easily solved if Palestinians really wanted peace, but all they want is total destruction.

If they were better organized with bigger army, i have no doubt there would of been a never ending war.

And when i say "they" i refer to governments, but it is people who vote to make government and the policy's

Edited November 12, 2010 by kuffki

[SergeiY]

Russia??? What has Russia do with it? Wanna fight the cold war with me because my nickname sounds somewhat Russian to you?

I am discussing zionism in reply to the line "The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated."

True is there always lived jews in that area, since ages. and so lived Palestinians there, Arabs, Muslims, Christians. And true is also that there was no established Palestinian state or Palestinian country on that territory. But also no Jewish state.

And the idea for the state Israel wasn't born in Jerusalem by some locals, but in a middle Europe of the 19 century. At a time where the powers more or less shifted from kings and dynasty rulers to parliaments and nation states became en vogue , see the 1848s revolutions in Europe. At the same time the colonial expansion was in its last stage and everyone hurried up to get his part of Africa.

In this context we must see Zionism. But while the Hungarians, the Serbs, in Bosnia and Herzegovina could claim more autonomy and self-determination, or the Germans got their unified state, there was no place, no territory to claim for Jews. They lived all over the world, a minority everywhere but not a big community together. They faced threats like the antisemitism, programs and were treated over many centuries only as second class citizen.

Another threat (in the eyes of the zionists) was the cultural assimilation, with the bourgeoisie gaining more power, jews had the chance to leave the medieval ghetto and to "integrate" what at this time meant to give up their religion and culture and convert to Christian believes, become German or Austrian. That it was still hard to integrate for jew is another point, important is hat they with this step were lost for the idea of a the jewish nationality.

The Zionist movement saw the answer to the this threats in the creation of a own nation state and in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism and their history myth the optioned for Palestine as the place to go.

And so it started. the settler colonialism with to goal to create Israel. And again in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism, their religious myth and the Zionist ignored the fact that at their chosen place already other people lived. And with the typical ignorance of these European towards other cultures the coming conflicts were predictable.

- At the same time,please explain why Jews were always discriminated in Russia and could never hold a top management job even though they were best suited for it.

I don't really get your point here.

Can you differentiate between the Jews as members of a religious group(or probably also as a ethnic group) and the state Israel and the politics of Israel?

Of course i know in Russia and also in the Soviet Union Jews got discriminated. Why should it my job to explain this. Antisemitism we can find allover the world, it exist also in the West, also in the USA in the pre WW2 times. Why you have to point here specially at Russia, because of my name? I am not a proud Russian, i am lacking a patriotic feeling for that state nor i see a point why i should be in the position to explain the things that Russia does wrong here in this thread at this topic. In Russia they would probably call me a безродный космополит , because i am a cosmopolitan and not a nationalist.

I am an individual, don't want belong to any religious group or movement that feels the urge to separate themselves from others. i like to get my inputs from as many different sources and cultures as possible.

- Why Jews were given a small autonomy in the north when they are people of south. Its like moving Africans to Alaska

What is this about? Why do you want send the 'Jews' to the South and argue that is the place where they belong.

Let them be everywhere. A 'Jewish nationality' or a 'Jewish ethnicity' is just a man made social construction

Read some history books again but this time written by Western authors before you start to come out with this rubbish. Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years and was also called Kingdom of Judea and Israel, then Judea/Samaria/Galilee-and kept changing depending on who ruled it.

Around 2000 BC, Semitic people, the Hebrews, headed by Abraham, passed through Canaan on their way south. About 1300 BC Hebrew tribes under the leadership of Moses returned from Egypt and engaged in wars with the Canaanite tribes for possession of the land. The Philistines in the south, the Canaanites (Jebusites), Phoenicians, Amorites, and Hittites in the north resisted the Hebrew (Israelite) . Four centuries later, the Israelites, under David, were successful in uniting the Hebrew nation, conquering and substantially absorbing the Canaanites. From this point, Israelites, Philistines, Hittites, and Canaanites mixed races and have subsequently been a racially mixed, Semitic people.

The first Jewish dispersion occurred in 586 BC under the rule of the Chaldaeans (Babylonia), with thousands forced into exile to Babylon until the reconstruction in Palestine of a new Jewish state after 538 BC. During the Babylonia captivity, the Jews developed ideas and institutions that were subsequently to form the foundation of Jewish political and social life after the second dispersion in 135 AD. In 67 BC, a rebellion headed by Judas Maccabeus restored the Jewish state. However, the invincible Roman Empire seized Jerusalem and subdued the Jewish tribes in 63. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the Jews were expelled in 135 AD. All of Judea was destroyed, 985 towns and villages burned, and 50 fortresses razed to the ground.

Jews were forced to leave their land and were also expelled from England in 1290, France in 1392, and from Spain the same year of Columbus' voyage in 1492 looking for India. They were then expelled from Portugal in 1497. They attempted, with varying responses, to live throughout Europe, including Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Hungary, Turkey, Morocco, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.

But the origins and roots go back way before that

I did not see you have a problem on all other threads attacking USA and defending everything Russia did and do in regards to Victor Bout but now all over sudden your opinion and relation to Russia has changed-funny that.

PS. Bottom line is Israel has just as much right to exist as any other country or state or people. However for as long as they continue to refuse to recognize Israel and jewish people right to exist, the conflict will never end. So the whole problem could be easily solved if Palestinians really wanted peace, but all they want is total destruction.

If they were better organized with bigger army, i have no doubt there would of been a never ending war.

And when i say "they" i refer to governments, but it is people who vote to make government and the policy's

headed by Abraham, ... the leadership of Moses

lol

That there is a history that can dates to thousand years BC nobody denies, albeit its highly questionable if your father Abraham and leader moses really existed as historical persons or if that isn't just some religious myth we can read in the holy books. Furthermore its highly questionable if that justifies everything Israel does.

Btw. you stole your content from a website, copied without giving a link to the source or to mention that its all a quote.

it comes from here:

http://www.brianwillson.com/history-of-palestine-and-green-line-israel/

Read some history books again but this time written by Western authors before you start to come out with this rubbish.

lol again. you addressing none of my arguments but come up with some biblical stories.

did you read that text actually in its full length? your source is not so bad when it comes to the 'younger history' continuous with some interesting points. I can use it perfectly to back up my comments about Zionism.

"

The Emergence of Zionism

...

In 1896, the Viennese journalist, Theodore Herzl, published The Jewish State, influenced by 19th century European nationalism. The vision: creation of a Jewish nation-state. In 1897, Herzl convened a Congress of Jews at Basel, Switzerland and founded the World Zionist Organization to restore the Jewish National Home in Palestine, which at that time was a remote Turkish colony, but inhabited by over a half million Arab Palestinians.

The political program adopted at this 1897 Congress, that continues to provide its basis, begins: “Zionism aims at establishing for the Jewish people a publicly recognized and legally secured home in Palestine.” Among the means identified for attainment of the objective: “Promotion of the settlement of Jewish agriculturalists, artisans and tradesmen in Palestine.” Zionism was envisioned as a “wall protecting Europe from Asia” and “an outpost of culture against barbarism.” It implied alliance with the great western capitalist powers and therefore was very Eurocentric. Thus it has always represented a western bias.

...

The ratio of Jewish settlers to Palestinian indigenous in 1918 was only one to ten.

...

Tensions had been mounting for years. The 1919 King-Crane Commission investigated Palestine and concluded: “Zionists look forward to a practically complete dispossession of the Palestinian people. It was increasingly clear at that time that Zionism meant both (1) the “return” of all Jews around the world to “Erzetz Yisrael” and their mass transfer to and settlement in Palestine, and (2) the exodus of indigenous Palestinian Arabs and their mass transfer from Palestine. In effect the situation was not that much different from the dispossession from the Americas of the Indigenous natives by the Europeans.

...

read more at the website where you stole your text from, you may gain some knowledge.

And again.

I never defend here anything what Russia did. The Viktor Bout case isn't for me a USA vs. Russia issue. For me its more a juridical question and my opinion what should be right here. I don't see Bout as a representative of Russia but as an individual, he could be of any other nationality.

Don't assume that all other people have the same patriotic mindset like you may have.

[flying]

A mod might want to remove your insult and my reply as they are both off topic.

Why don't you point out my insult as there isn't one

That would be when you called him a Anti Semitic

Except it is always based on what you say not what they said...Then of course the Anti Sem card is tossed

How about a few facts (other than you prefer Arabs to Jews)?

Edited November 12, 2010 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

That would be when you called him a Anti Semitic

Where do I call him Anti-Semitic? That is not true (surprise, surprise). I said that he preferred Palestinian Arabs to Israelis and it is pretty obvious according to what he said in his proceeding post:

I've been in Israel, I've seen the camps, I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

This makes another in a long line of posts where you have not been honest and I have had to point it out. Why don't you try a few facts for a change?

Edited November 13, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[flying]

Where do I call him Anti-Semitic? That is not true. I said that he preferred Palestinians to Israelis and referred to exactly what he said in his post:

Man you are really terrible............ His post is there to see....What you said is there to see & I even re-posted/quoted you.

It was not he that said Jews it was you It was not he that said "you prefer Arabs to Jews" it was you

At least dont be so wimpy after you play the card.........Stand behind what you say or dont say it

Edited November 13, 2010 by flying

[kuffki]

Russia??? What has Russia do with it? Wanna fight the cold war with me because my nickname sounds somewhat Russian to you?

I am discussing zionism in reply to the line "The jews did not invade Israel. That's where they originated."

True is there always lived jews in that area, since ages. and so lived Palestinians there, Arabs, Muslims, Christians. And true is also that there was no established Palestinian state or Palestinian country on that territory. But also no Jewish state.

And the idea for the state Israel wasn't born in Jerusalem by some locals, but in a middle Europe of the 19 century. At a time where the powers more or less shifted from kings and dynasty rulers to parliaments and nation states became en vogue , see the 1848s revolutions in Europe. At the same time the colonial expansion was in its last stage and everyone hurried up to get his part of Africa.

In this context we must see Zionism. But while the Hungarians, the Serbs, in Bosnia and Herzegovina could claim more autonomy and self-determination, or the Germans got their unified state, there was no place, no territory to claim for Jews. They lived all over the world, a minority everywhere but not a big community together. They faced threats like the antisemitism, programs and were treated over many centuries only as second class citizen.

Another threat (in the eyes of the zionists) was the cultural assimilation, with the bourgeoisie gaining more power, jews had the chance to leave the medieval ghetto and to "integrate" what at this time meant to give up their religion and culture and convert to Christian believes, become German or Austrian. That it was still hard to integrate for jew is another point, important is hat they with this step were lost for the idea of a the jewish nationality.

The Zionist movement saw the answer to the this threats in the creation of a own nation state and in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism and their history myth the optioned for Palestine as the place to go.

And so it started. the settler colonialism with to goal to create Israel. And again in the spirit of the 19 century colonialism, their religious myth and the Zionist ignored the fact that at their chosen place already other people lived. And with the typical ignorance of these European towards other cultures the coming conflicts were predictable.

- At the same time,please explain why Jews were always discriminated in Russia and could never hold a top management job even though they were best suited for it.

I don't really get your point here.

Can you differentiate between the Jews as members of a religious group(or probably also as a ethnic group) and the state Israel and the politics of Israel?

Of course i know in Russia and also in the Soviet Union Jews got discriminated. Why should it my job to explain this. Antisemitism we can find allover the world, it exist also in the West, also in the USA in the pre WW2 times. Why you have to point here specially at Russia, because of my name? I am not a proud Russian, i am lacking a patriotic feeling for that state nor i see a point why i should be in the position to explain the things that Russia does wrong here in this thread at this topic. In Russia they would probably call me a безродный космополит , because i am a cosmopolitan and not a nationalist.

I am an individual, don't want belong to any religious group or movement that feels the urge to separate themselves from others. i like to get my inputs from as many different sources and cultures as possible.

- Why Jews were given a small autonomy in the north when they are people of south. Its like moving Africans to Alaska

What is this about? Why do you want send the 'Jews' to the South and argue that is the place where they belong.

Let them be everywhere. A 'Jewish nationality' or a 'Jewish ethnicity' is just a man made social construction

Read some history books again but this time written by Western authors before you start to come out with this rubbish. Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years and was also called Kingdom of Judea and Israel, then Judea/Samaria/Galilee-and kept changing depending on who ruled it.

Around 2000 BC, Semitic people, the Hebrews, headed by Abraham, passed through Canaan on their way south. About 1300 BC Hebrew tribes under the leadership of Moses returned from Egypt and engaged in wars with the Canaanite tribes for possession of the land. The Philistines in the south, the Canaanites (Jebusites), Phoenicians, Amorites, and Hittites in the north resisted the Hebrew (Israelite) . Four centuries later, the Israelites, under David, were successful in uniting the Hebrew nation, conquering and substantially absorbing the Canaanites. From this point, Israelites, Philistines, Hittites, and Canaanites mixed races and have subsequently been a racially mixed, Semitic people.

The first Jewish dispersion occurred in 586 BC under the rule of the Chaldaeans (Babylonia), with thousands forced into exile to Babylon until the reconstruction in Palestine of a new Jewish state after 538 BC. During the Babylonia captivity, the Jews developed ideas and institutions that were subsequently to form the foundation of Jewish political and social life after the second dispersion in 135 AD. In 67 BC, a rebellion headed by Judas Maccabeus restored the Jewish state. However, the invincible Roman Empire seized Jerusalem and subdued the Jewish tribes in 63. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the Jews were expelled in 135 AD. All of Judea was destroyed, 985 towns and villages burned, and 50 fortresses razed to the ground.

Jews were forced to leave their land and were also expelled from England in 1290, France in 1392, and from Spain the same year of Columbus' voyage in 1492 looking for India. They were then expelled from Portugal in 1497. They attempted, with varying responses, to live throughout Europe, including Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Hungary, Turkey, Morocco, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway.

But the origins and roots go back way before that

I did not see you have a problem on all other threads attacking USA and defending everything Russia did and do in regards to Victor Bout but now all over sudden your opinion and relation to Russia has changed-funny that.

PS. Bottom line is Israel has just as much right to exist as any other country or state or people. However for as long as they continue to refuse to recognize Israel and jewish people right to exist, the conflict will never end. So the whole problem could be easily solved if Palestinians really wanted peace, but all they want is total destruction.

If they were better organized with bigger army, i have no doubt there would of been a never ending war.

And when i say "they" i refer to governments, but it is people who vote to make government and the policy's

headed by Abraham, ... the leadership of Moses

lol

That there is a history that can dates to thousand years BC nobody denies, albeit its highly questionable if your father Abraham and leader moses really existed as historical persons or if that isn't just some religious myth we can read in the holy books. Furthermore its highly questionable if that justifies everything Israel does.

Btw. you stole your content from a website, copied without giving a link to the source or to mention that its all a quote.

it comes from here:

http://www.brianwill...en-line-israel/

Read some history books again but this time written by Western authors before you start to come out with this rubbish.

lol again. you addressing none of my arguments but come up with some biblical stories.

did you read that text actually in its full length? your source is not so bad when it comes to the 'younger history' continuous with some interesting points. I can use it perfectly to back up my comments about Zionism.

"

The Emergence of Zionism

...

In 1896, the Viennese journalist, Theodore Herzl, published The Jewish State, influenced by 19th century European nationalism. The vision: creation of a Jewish nation-state. In 1897, Herzl convened a Congress of Jews at Basel, Switzerland and founded the World Zionist Organization to restore the Jewish National Home in Palestine, which at that time was a remote Turkish colony, but inhabited by over a half million Arab Palestinians.

The political program adopted at this 1897 Congress, that continues to provide its basis, begins: "Zionism aims at establishing for the Jewish people a publicly recognized and legally secured home in Palestine." Among the means identified for attainment of the objective: "Promotion of the settlement of Jewish agriculturalists, artisans and tradesmen in Palestine." Zionism was envisioned as a "wall protecting Europe from Asia" and "an outpost of culture against barbarism." It implied alliance with the great western capitalist powers and therefore was very Eurocentric. Thus it has always represented a western bias.

...

The ratio of Jewish settlers to Palestinian indigenous in 1918 was only one to ten.

...

Tensions had been mounting for years. The 1919 King-Crane Commission investigated Palestine and concluded: "Zionists look forward to a practically complete dispossession of the Palestinian people. It was increasingly clear at that time that Zionism meant both (1) the "return" of all Jews around the world to "Erzetz Yisrael" and their mass transfer to and settlement in Palestine, and (2) the exodus of indigenous Palestinian Arabs and their mass transfer from Palestine. In effect the situation was not that much different from the dispossession from the Americas of the Indigenous natives by the Europeans.

...

read more at the website where you stole your text from, you may gain some knowledge.

And again.

I never defend here anything what Russia did. The Viktor Bout case isn't for me a USA vs. Russia issue. For me its more a juridical question and my opinion what should be right here. I don't see Bout as a representative of Russia but as an individual, he could be of any other nationality.

Don't assume that all other people have the same patriotic mindset like you may have.

Stealing and copying the text for your reading are 2 very different things, even you should be able to comprehend this. Not to mention i never said not implied it was my text, but as always on all threads you have managed to go so far from the OP that we may need a super jet to bring us back.

Again in regards to your comments about Russia, you may want to go back and re-read all your responses

[Ulysses G.]

Where do I call him Anti-Semitic? That is not true. I said that he preferred Palestinians to Israelis and referred to exactly what he said in his post:

Man you are really terrible............ His post is there to see....

Yes it is. Right there in black and white.

I've been in Israel, I've seen the camps, I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

How about being honest for a change?

[Ulysses G.]

Again in regards to your comments about Russia, you may want to go back and re-read all your responses

Many trolls do not like to admit where they are from, so that they can insult every other country without getting the same treatment.

[flying]

Yes it is. Right there in black and white.

Better put on your glasses then & line them both up at the same time as they are not the same at all.

Got your glasses? here ya go.........

I've been in Israel, I've seen the camps, I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

How about a few facts (other than you prefer Arabs to Jews)?

[Ulysses G.]

I've spoken to Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)

How about a few facts (other than you prefer Arabs to Jews)?

I don't need glasses. According to his statement that "Palestinians who appear to be a very warm and friendly people (unlike the Israelis)", it is pretty obvious who he prefers. What is there to argue about?

Just why do you always insist on denying things that are so evident?

Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels was the master of the "big lie" tactic in which a lie, no matter how outrageous, is repeated often enough that it will eventually be accepted as truth. Goebbels explained:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[David006]

Maybe best answered by quotes from an article written by King Abdullah of Jordan 60 years ago in 1948.

"The unimaginable persecution of the Jews was not done by the Arabs: it was done by a Christian nation in the West."

"Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab. It is still preponderantly Arab today, in spite of enormous Jewish immigration. But if this immigration continues we shall soon be outnumbered --- minority in our home. Palestine is a small and very poor country, about the size of your state of Vermont. Its Arab population is only about 1,200,000. Already we have had forced on us, against our will, some 600,000 Zionist Jews. We are threatened with many hundreds of thousands more."

Our position is so simple and natural that we are amazed it should even be questioned. It is exactly the same position you in America take in regard to the unhappy European Jews. You are sorry for them, but you do not want them in your country.

We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever. Think for a moment: In the last 25 years we have had one third of our entire population forced upon us. In America that would be the equivalent of 45,000,000 complete strangers admitted to your country, over your violent protest, since 1921. How would you have reacted to that?

Because of our perfectly natural dislike of being overwhelmed in our own homeland, we are called blind nationalists and heartless anti-Semites.

This charge would be ludicrous were it not so dangerous.

No people on earth have been less "anti-Semitic" than the Arabs. The persecution of the Jews has been confined almost entirely to the Christian nations of the West. Jews, themselves, will admit that never since the Great Dispersion did Jews develop so freely and reach such importance as in Spain when it was an Arab possession. With very minor exceptions, Jews have lived for many centuries in the Middle East, in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours. Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut and other Arab centers have always contained large and prosperous Jewish colonies. Until the Zionist invasion of Palestine began, these Jews received the most generous treatment far, far better than in Christian Europe. Now, unhappily, for the first time in history, these Jews are beginning to feel the effects of Arab resistance to the Zionist assault. Most of them are as anxious as Arabs to stop it. Most of these Jews who have found happy homes among us resent, as we do, the coming of these strangers.

I was puzzled for a long time about the odd belief which apparently persists in America that Palestine has somehow "always been a Jewish land." Recently an American I talked to cleared up this mystery. He pointed out that the only things most Americans know about Palestine are what they read in the Bible. It was a Jewish land in those days, they reason, and they assume it has always remained so.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologize for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their "historic claim." I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts."

"In 63 BC the Jews were conquered by Roman Pompey, and never again had even the vestige of independence. The Roman Emperor Hadrian finally wiped them out about 135 AD. He utterly destroyed Jerusalem, rebuilt under another name, and for hundreds of years no Jew was permitted to enter it. A handful of Jews remained in Palestine but the vast majority were killed or scattered to other countries, in the Diaspora, or the Great Dispersion. From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense.

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine!

If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

Many Mexicans might claim Spain, "homeland" of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the "homeland" of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago. I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as valid or just as fantastic as the Jewish "historic connection" with Palestine. Most are more valid."

full version here, very interesting reading .......

="http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/king_abdullah_palestine.shtml"]My link[/url]

Excellent post mate..the list of potential "homeland" claims would certainly upset the world order especially in Europe as you say, not to mention the "new world".

.. Interestingly been reading about Columbus and discovered that many Spanish Jews ( conversos) were responsible for the massacre of indigenous Indians in the "West Indies" and South America.

off topic but did not know syphilis came from the "west indies"...divine retribution maybe...lol

[kuffki]

Maybe best answered by quotes from an article written by King Abdullah of Jordan 60 years ago in 1948.

"The unimaginable persecution of the Jews was not done by the Arabs: it was done by a Christian nation in the West."

"Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab. It is still preponderantly Arab today, in spite of enormous Jewish immigration. But if this immigration continues we shall soon be outnumbered --- minority in our home. Palestine is a small and very poor country, about the size of your state of Vermont. Its Arab population is only about 1,200,000. Already we have had forced on us, against our will, some 600,000 Zionist Jews. We are threatened with many hundreds of thousands more."

Our position is so simple and natural that we are amazed it should even be questioned. It is exactly the same position you in America take in regard to the unhappy European Jews. You are sorry for them, but you do not want them in your country.

We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever. Think for a moment: In the last 25 years we have had one third of our entire population forced upon us. In America that would be the equivalent of 45,000,000 complete strangers admitted to your country, over your violent protest, since 1921. How would you have reacted to that?

Because of our perfectly natural dislike of being overwhelmed in our own homeland, we are called blind nationalists and heartless anti-Semites.

This charge would be ludicrous were it not so dangerous.

No people on earth have been less "anti-Semitic" than the Arabs. The persecution of the Jews has been confined almost entirely to the Christian nations of the West. Jews, themselves, will admit that never since the Great Dispersion did Jews develop so freely and reach such importance as in Spain when it was an Arab possession. With very minor exceptions, Jews have lived for many centuries in the Middle East, in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours. Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut and other Arab centers have always contained large and prosperous Jewish colonies. Until the Zionist invasion of Palestine began, these Jews received the most generous treatment far, far better than in Christian Europe. Now, unhappily, for the first time in history, these Jews are beginning to feel the effects of Arab resistance to the Zionist assault. Most of them are as anxious as Arabs to stop it. Most of these Jews who have found happy homes among us resent, as we do, the coming of these strangers.

I was puzzled for a long time about the odd belief which apparently persists in America that Palestine has somehow "always been a Jewish land." Recently an American I talked to cleared up this mystery. He pointed out that the only things most Americans know about Palestine are what they read in the Bible. It was a Jewish land in those days, they reason, and they assume it has always remained so.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologize for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their "historic claim." I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts."

"In 63 BC the Jews were conquered by Roman Pompey, and never again had even the vestige of independence. The Roman Emperor Hadrian finally wiped them out about 135 AD. He utterly destroyed Jerusalem, rebuilt under another name, and for hundreds of years no Jew was permitted to enter it. A handful of Jews remained in Palestine but the vast majority were killed or scattered to other countries, in the Diaspora, or the Great Dispersion. From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense.

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine!

If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

Many Mexicans might claim Spain, "homeland" of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the "homeland" of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago. I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as valid or just as fantastic as the Jewish "historic connection" with Palestine. Most are more valid."

full version here, very interesting reading .......

="http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/king_abdullah_palestine.shtml"]My link[/url]

Excellent post mate..the list of potential "homeland" claims would certainly upset the world order especially in Europe as you say, not to mention the "new world".

.. Interestingly been reading about Columbus and discovered that many Spanish Jews ( conversos) were responsible for the massacre of indigenous Indians in the "West Indies" and South America.

off topic but did not know syphilis came from the "west indies"...divine retribution maybe...lol

Yeah let me get you another link for Hezbullah, i am sure they have more true facts and the photo's of the camps to which he referred to earlier just failed to name or provide any kind of photo or other evidence.