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Posted

Under the definition of "นักถ่ายรูป", Lexitron has the following sample sentence:

เขาเป็นนักถ่ายรูปที่เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน

Does this mean,

"He is a photographer against whom all others arejudged." ?

Thanks.

Posted

เขาเป็นนักถ่ายรูปที่เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน

He is a Photographer (whose skill) reaching standard.

Posted

Translating literally produces Engrish, so I'd suggest a phrase like "first rate."

Or does it mean "average"? "Approaching standard" hardly sounds like a compliment to the English ear.

Posted

Translating literally produces Engrish, so I'd suggest a phrase like "first rate."

Or does it mean "average"? "Approaching standard" hardly sounds like a compliment to the English ear.

Hi Rikker...

My opinion is ......

มาตรฐาน = acceptable threshold just as you stated an average level not yet first rate

มาตรฐานต่ำ = low standard below acceptable level

มาตรฐานสูง = high standard (first rate)

Posted (edited)

How about...

He/She is a photographer who meets the required standard.

The problem would appear to be that this definition is supposed to be an example of the use of the word นักถ่ายรูป and it succeeds in showing that you can apply an adjectival phrase to the word. What the heck it means is more in the mind of whoever wrote the example; I mean does anyone think of standards when applied to photographers? all the successful ones David Bailey etc. are artistic types whose fame has nothing to do with how well they take photos.

I think someone was aquainted with a training course for photographers and the เขาขั้นมาตรฐาน is probably in the prospectus.

Edited by tgeezer
Posted

How about...

He/She is a photographer who meets the required standard.

The problem would appear to be that this definition is supposed to be an example of the use of the word นักถ่ายรูป and it succeeds in showing that you can apply an adjectival phrase to the word. What the heck it means is more in the mind of whoever wrote the example; I mean does anyone think of standards when applied to photographers? all the successful ones David Bailey etc. are artistic types whose fame has nothing to do with how well they take photos.

I think someone was aquainted with a training course for photographers and the เขาขั้นมาตรฐาน is probably in the prospectus.

I agree with you that the meaning is in the mind of the person who composed the sentence. Funnily enough, a hit on google for the phrase เขาชั้นมาตรฐาน brings up nothing as a phrase, while a search on the full sentence only brings up definitions from different dictionaries who must be using the same model. If it really is the phrase for a qualified photographer, i liked that translation best, then it would surely bring up some hits. Maybe the guy who wrote it was coming to the end of a long week of making up example sentences for entries in the dictionary. On your point about thinking about standards for photographers it would depend on the situation, i guess. If it was a photographer for a wedding, i would want one of a high standard.

Posted (edited)

He/She is a photographer who meets the required standard.

In no way was I criticising the offers,

I think to be valid as a definition it must be to distinguish this chap from all the people with cameras. It must mean he can be judged in the business of photography, which is basically what you have there.

Edited by tgeezer
Posted

Here is a take on using the phrase in a negative sense:

มีงานวิจัยเมื่อปี2549ของกระทรวงศึกษาอเมริกันบอกว่า ผู้ปกครอง 88%ที่จัดให้ลูกเรียนที่บ้านเห็นว่าโรงเรียนรัฐบาลใกล้บ้านนั้นไม่ปลอดภัยเสี่ยงภัยจากยาเสพติด และไม่มีความพร้อมรอบด้าน อีก73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น อีก 83%บอกว่าต้องการปลูกฝังให้ลูกๆ ใกล้ชิดศาสนา

Research conducted by the U.S. Department ofEducation in 2006 shows that 88% of the parents who home-school their children believed that their local school was unsafe, were drug-ridden, and were not fully qualified. A full 73% complained that [the schools] were substandard; furthermore, 83% that they wanted to inculcate their children with religious principles.

It appears that "มาตรฐาน . . . ไม่เข้าขั้น" in this context means "substandard" and that "มาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น" means "below established educational standards."

If this is accurate, then, what a51mas and bhody said about "เขาเป็นนักถ่ายรูปที่เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน", "He is a photographer who meets the required standards" seems to be closer to the mark. I, like Rikker, would rather the phrase meant, "exceeding standards", but, alas, that may be more of a wish than an accurate reflection of usage.

What do you think?

Posted

Here is a take on using the phrase in a negative sense:

มีงานวิจัยเมื่อปี2549ของกระทรวงศึกษาอเมริกันบอกว่า ผู้ปกครอง 88%ที่จัดให้ลูกเรียนที่บ้านเห็นว่าโรงเรียนรัฐบาลใกล้บ้านนั้นไม่ปลอดภัยเสี่ยงภัยจากยาเสพติด และไม่มีความพร้อมรอบด้าน อีก73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น อีก 83%บอกว่าต้องการปลูกฝังให้ลูกๆ ใกล้ชิดศาสนา

If this is accurate, then, what a51mas and bhody said about "เขาเป็นนักถ่ายรูปที่เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน", "He is a photographer who meets the required standards" seems to be closer to the mark. I, like Rikker, would rather the phrase meant, "exceeding standards", but, alas, that may be more of a wish than an accurate reflection of usage.

What do you think?

I don't know how acceptable it is to teach your kids at home, but I think in England parents would be on the defensive with standards of education, compard with freedom from drug culture and religious ambivalence, where they probably feel that they have a stronger case. If this is the fact then they could be saying that, compared with home education the standard of schools is not special, so it doesn't necessarily negate เข้าขั้น as better than standard does it?

Posted (edited)

73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น

Literally: 73% complain that (the) standard (of) education (is) not up to the mark

Idiomatically: 73% complain that the schools are below acceptable standards.

I'm not sure how to read เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน in the OP. It always confuses the hel_l out of me when Thai switches word order in compound phrases. I never know whether that just changes the part of speech or the whole meaning or both.

Edited by SoftWater
Posted

73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น

Literally: 73% complain that (the) standard (of) education (is) not up to the mark

Idiomatically: 73% complain that the schools are below acceptable standards.

I'm not sure how to read เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน in the OP. It always confuses the hel_l out of me when Thai switches word order in compound phrases. I never know whether that just changes the part of speech or the whole meaning or both.

I have been to the dictionary and there are lots of ways of saying above and below standard which are less enigmatic. เหนือ ต้ำ สูง ไต้

This post rests on the entry in the T-L.com definition of เข้า to be compatible as in เข้ากัน but I don't think เข้ามาตรฐาาน means any more than to have a standard. เข้า ก. เริมอยู่ในภาวะ เข้าทำงาน เข้าโรงเรียน are the examples in the dictionary; the subjects here becomes "a worker" "a student" respectively.

What is the subject of เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน - การศึกษา become ? simply 'standard ' or since this had ไม่ 'non standard'. Oh ขั้น means ลำดับ a place in order or ตอน a part of something or a period of time. Since เข้า is a verb then I suppose เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน must be to be standardised.

I do realize that the person who wrote this doesn't think in the same way as me and means 'not up to standard' but it helps me to understand why we get confused when Thai switch word order.

Posted (edited)

73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น

Literally: 73% complain that (the) standard (of) education (is) not up to the mark

Idiomatically: 73% complain that the schools are below acceptable standards.

I'm not sure how to read เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน in the OP. It always confuses the hel_l out of me when Thai switches word order in compound phrases. I never know whether that just changes the part of speech or the whole meaning or both.

I have been to the dictionary and there are lots of ways of saying above and below standard which are less enigmatic. เหนือ ต้ำ สูง ไต้

tgeezer: I may have missed your point, but my rendition 'below acceptable standards' was prefaced with the remark 'idiomatically'.

The point of giving an idiomatic translation is to express (my view of) the (connotative) meaning as we, English native speakers, would express it, not how Thais would translate it. For the latter, the version I preface with 'literal' would probably be more useful.

p.s., that's not to say I'm claiming any authority of correctness here, just trying to explain the difference between my two offerings!

Edited by SoftWater
Posted

Friends,

Regarding the 73% thing, I believe that the subject of the clause comes well before the actual clause itself. Let me make some bolding and see if a more complete sentence emerges:

มีงานวิจัยเมื่อปี 2549 ของกระทรวงศึกษาอเมริกันบอกว่า ผู้ปกครอง 88% ที่จัดให้ลูกเรียนที่บ้านเห็นว่าโรงเรียนรัฐบาลใกล้บ้านนั้นไม่ปลอดภัยเสี่ยงภัยจากยาเสพติด และไม่มีความพร้อมรอบด้าน อีก73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น อีก 83%บอกว่าต้องการปลูกฝังให้ลูกๆ ใกล้ชิดศาสนา or

"โรงเรียนรัฐบาลใกล้บ้านนั้น ไม่เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน การศึกษา"

Perhaps I should have used another example.

BTW, I agree fully with Softwater that the final translation to English should be idiomatic, not literal. Pidgin English is unacceptable for speaking to Thais - especially students - or for translating Thai into English.

Posted

Here is another short paragraph which contains the phrase "เข้าขั้น":

กลายเป็นประเด็นถกเถียงกันเกือบตลอดทั้งสัปดาห์ที่ผ่านมาสำหรับตัวเลขจำนวนโรงเรียนระดับการศึกษาขั้นพื้นฐานในสังกัดกระทรวงศึกษาธิการ(ศธ.) ที่ต่ำกว่ามาตรฐานคุณภาพ ซึ่งทางสำนักงานรับรองมาตรฐานและประเมินคุณภาพการศึกษา(สมศ.) เรียกว่าอยู่ในข่ายเข้าขั้นไอซียู หรือโคม่า มีมากถึงกว่า 15,000 โรงเรียนทั่วประเทศ ในขณะที่ทาง ศธ.โต้แย้งว่าจากข้อมูลที่ตรวจสอบโรงเรียนอยู่ในขั้นโคม่าจริงๆ มีเพียง 560 โรงเรียนเท่านั้น

"This is the issue that hasbeen argued about for this entire week. This issue involves the number of schools at the Basic Educationd leveloperated under the auspices of the Ministry of Education which fall below established quality standards. The Office for National Education Standards and Quality Assessment ("ONESQA") has referred to this situation as schools that are in the "ICU" or are "in a coma." And, that more than 15,000 of the schools in Thailand are in this condition. The Ministry of Education, on the other hand, disagrees with this fact and states that according to its investigations that only 560 schools are really in a comatose condition."

(Note: ICU in this context is a metaphor. A school in this condition is being compared to a person in the intensive care unit.)

Posted

The way i was reading it was เข้า reach, ชั้น level, มาตรฐาน standard, and from that i got meet the required standard.

Posted

Friends,

Regarding the 73% thing, I believe that the subject of the clause comes well before the actual clause itself. Let me make some bolding and see if a more complete sentence emerges:

มีงานวิจัยเมื่อปี 2549 ของกระทรวงศึกษาอเมริกันบอกว่า ผู้ปกครอง 88% ที่จัดให้ลูกเรียนที่บ้านเห็นว่าโรงเรียนรัฐบาลใกล้บ้านนั้นไม่ปลอดภัยเสี่ยงภัยจากยาเสพติด และไม่มีความพร้อมรอบด้าน อีก73%บ่นว่ามาตรฐานการศึกษาไม่เข้าขั้น อีก 83%บอกว่าต้องการปลูกฝังให้ลูกๆ ใกล้ชิดศาสนา or

"โรงเรียนรัฐบาลใกล้บ้านนั้น ไม่เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน การศึกษา"

Perhaps I should have used another example.

BTW, I agree fully with Softwater that the final translation to English should be idiomatic, not literal. Pidgin English is unacceptable for speaking to Thais - especially students - or for translating Thai into English.

Nothing wrong with the example it is just the word ขั้น which SW has pointed out obliquely means a level within the standards which I hadn't realized was the meaning. Somewhere we had เข้าขั้นมาตรฐาน about the photographer and now it is มาตรฐาน ไม่เข้าขั้น so ขั้น has to be some colloquial variation of the original ขั้นมาตรฐาน . It isn't in the dictionary but is quite common obviously. I didn't know it and can't work it out.

I have no trouble with idiomatic translations, it at least avoids being pinned-down as to meaning which makes life a lot easier for us, but if the student is anything like me, not for him.

Posted

The way i was reading it was เข้า reach, ชั้น level, มาตรฐาน standard, and from that i got meet the required standard.

And by reading ขั้น as ชั้น accidentally you may have got there.

Posted

The way i was reading it was เข้า reach, ชั้น level, มาตรฐาน standard, and from that i got meet the required standard.

And by reading ขั้น as ชั้น accidentally you may have got there.

Oops, looks like i misread that there. Anyway it appears immaterial as both ชั้น and ขั้น can be interpreted as level, so either way i would have come to the same conclusion. Thanks for pointing it out, i need to enlarge my fonts by the looks of things.

Posted

Oops, looks like i misread that there. Anyway it appears immaterial as both ชั้น and ขั้น can be interpreted as level, so either way i would have come to the same conclusion. Thanks for pointing it out, i need to enlarge my fonts by the looks of things.

Yes I don't know why I was blind to that fact, since this post I have noticed ขั้น used to indicate levels, but defined; ขั้นพื้นฐาน .

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