Local Land Department In Bangkok Says They Will Not Accept To Register A Usufruct

[Pib]

I live in western Bangkok and have an Usufruct on our home/land. Approx 3 years ago when going to the land office to complete the sale of this new home on a small plot of land (i.e., transfer from the moobaan developer to the Thai wife an I), the land office simply would not register a usufruct on the sale. I also had a usufruct contract (drawn up by a local major law firm) in hand between the Thai wife and myself. The land office basically said no-can-do. Got the law office lawyer who had drawn up the usufruct contract to call the land office officials while we were still at the land office trying to get the initial chanote with usufruct. After about one hour of discussions/telephone calls we went ahead and completed the sale, but the chanote was totally in the wife's name; no usufruct included.

But during this initial sale process we were told to come back in three days and we should be able to add the usufruct to the chanote...but, we simply could not accomplish the usufruct on the initial sale. Went back in three days with the same usufruct contract in hand, the three day old chanote in only the wife's name, went through all the same land office officials, and the chanote was updated to include a usufruct in my name. So now the chanote still has the wife's name on it as the owner, but I also has my name on it as having a lifetime usufruct on the property.

It was like night and day....impossible to do on Day XYZ but three days later no problem. No tea money involved that I'm aware of...just seemed to be something about doing a usufruct on an initial sale....or maybe the lawyer said the right things to the land office officials. I do know there was no tea money coming from me or the wife...or to the best of my knowledge the previous owner/developer (nothing in it for the developer since the sale completed three days earlier & they seemed clueless about what a usufruct was)...and I seriously doubt the lawyer as we didn't pay much for the usufruct contract to be drawn up (approx 10,000 Baht). Just seems many land offices don' like and will vigorously resist the issuance of a usufruct, although usufructs are perfectly legal.

[Khun Jean]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

[quiksilva]

I dont think anyone else picked up on this but it seems your plan has another slight flaw.

If you plan to sell the house in a few years to move to a bigger place, then you'll be better off renting until such time as you are ready to buy your bigger house (which ideally should be in your son's name with an usufruct on it in yours).

Don't count on being able to sell this smaller house in time to purchase the new one. They can take years to sell, even good houses, in great estates.

[Lannatyne]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Oooh - I'll put you out of your misery!

Agreed, that as it now appears to stand, the usufruct is worth zilch. You seem to have made the transfer into the wife's name first, then at a later date, got a usufruct from her with your name. No point - this arrangement can be nullified by the wife, and you have no usufructuary rights.

Now, if your plan had gone as originally thought of, you'd have been okay. You got the usufruct from the developer / seller, registered that FIRST, then immediately after (probably even same day) did the title transfer into your wife's name. You're in a strong position then becasue the usufruct wasn't given to you by your wife, therefore can't be cancelled.

If you're in a happy marraige, then run with it. If things are a little dodgy, then gradually get around to giving it to a child (if you have one). You still won't have any hold over the dealings in the property, but then neither will the wife, so your ongoing occupancy is much more secure.

[User3]

For what it's worth....

We registered a Usufruct against a house that was bought by my Thai wife (we are legally married) and the whole process took 2 trips to the Minburi district office. First one was about 4 minutes to submit the paperwork and the second was about 7 minutes to receive the paper. Total cost was something like 150 baht. No hassles, no arguments, no problems.

[Pib]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Sure, the fee is only about 100 baht at the land office, but the contract adds many more details to the usufruct agreement. Usufructs are about the best approach, closest a person can get to "kinda" owning land in Thailand.

[Pib]

For what it's worth....

We registered a Usufruct against a house that was bought by my Thai wife (we are legally married) and the whole process took 2 trips to the Minburi district office. First one was about 4 minutes to submit the paperwork and the second was about 7 minutes to receive the paper. Total cost was something like 150 baht. No hassles, no arguments, no problems.

Ain't it great how some land offices issue the usufruct without any hassle; while others simply will not do it.

[Khun Jean]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Sure, the fee is only about 100 baht at the land office, but the contract adds many more details to the usufruct agreement. Usufructs are about the best approach, closest a person can get to "kinda" owning land in Thailand.

Educate me please. What is there to add?

[travelmann]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Oooh - I'll put you out of your misery!

Agreed, that as it now appears to stand, the usufruct is worth zilch. You seem to have made the transfer into the wife's name first, then at a later date, got a usufruct from her with your name. No point - this arrangement can be nullified by the wife, and you have no usufructuary rights.

Now, if your plan had gone as originally thought of, you'd have been okay. You got the usufruct from the developer / seller, registered that FIRST, then immediately after (probably even same day) did the title transfer into your wife's name. You're in a strong position then becasue the usufruct wasn't given to you by your wife, therefore can't be cancelled.

If you're in a happy marraige, then run with it. If things are a little dodgy, then gradually get around to giving it to a child (if you have one). You still won't have any hold over the dealings in the property, but then neither will the wife, so your ongoing occupancy is much more secure.

His wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow and killed........................can you see any value to a usufruct now?????????/

[thaiwanderer]

His wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow and killed........................can you see any value to a usufruct now?????????/

What value it had is still preserved if tied to his life rsther than his wife's.

[Khun Jean]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Oooh - I'll put you out of your misery!

Agreed, that as it now appears to stand, the usufruct is worth zilch. You seem to have made the transfer into the wife's name first, then at a later date, got a usufruct from her with your name. No point - this arrangement can be nullified by the wife, and you have no usufructuary rights.

Now, if your plan had gone as originally thought of, you'd have been okay. You got the usufruct from the developer / seller, registered that FIRST, then immediately after (probably even same day) did the title transfer into your wife's name. You're in a strong position then becasue the usufruct wasn't given to you by your wife, therefore can't be cancelled.

If you're in a happy marraige, then run with it. If things are a little dodgy, then gradually get around to giving it to a child (if you have one). You still won't have any hold over the dealings in the property, but then neither will the wife, so your ongoing occupancy is much more secure.

His wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow and killed........................can you see any value to a usufruct now?????????/

His wife gets a new boyfriend or wants a divorce (statistically a lot more probable) .................. can you see how worthless a usufruct with your wife is now?????

[Canada]

I used a lawyer to do my "transfer of Title" and "superficies". There were no problems at the land office regarding transfer of title of registration of the superficies. Lawyer also strongly recommended new seller to purchaser contract between myself and seller (which we got), and a will from my GF leaving the property to me in the event of an untimely death. Also included were several signed "power of attorney" authorizations from GF to enable me to do what needs to be done. I don't know if that would enable me to sell it from under her or not...... but that is the theory.

I went back to the land office yesterday to request a check of the property boundaries as we are applying for a permit to build. The lady asked if I had this "power of attorney" form, which I did. Then she asked me to fill it out. I asked her if English would be fine. She then said no, and that someone else that could read and write Thai would need to come and do this for me and be the recipient of the power of attorney. She suggested that I come back with my lawyer. Like I need to get my lawyer to do piddly ass little shit like this.

I left and have been thinking about this.....I can speak Thai fine, I can read some Thai, and can probably write better than your average 70 year old villager...... I can read well enough to know what this form needs (which is not much) and with help and a little practice should be able to fill it out myself. It's just names and addresses.....

So....why, if I already have a superficies which gives me the right to build anything, plant anything, own that thing, and reap the benefits of that thing, would I need the owner to request the re-measurement of the property or have yet another "giving of rights" in the form of a giving power of attorney (nangsuu mop amnad)? The superficies pretty covers the removal of her rights to this property.....for the time being.

The local village office has no problem giving me a permit because I have the superficies. They had no problem coming over to "inaccurately" measure the property and check against the chanote. Is this officer just being a B^@$%#@ or what?

[Canada]

BTW....

when asked "what are the chances of me losing everything if we start to have problems in the relationship"? the lawyer said 30% lose everything...... best case scenario, even after only a short time together is 50/50

If I am to buy again, I think I will do it different..... Company.....didn't have enough time this time. The right property came up after endless searching. Should have planned ahead.

[surayu]

His wife gets a new boyfriend or wants a divorce (statistically a lot more probable) .................. can you see how worthless a usufruct with your wife is now?????

From my understanding, a usufruct being done while married to a thai citizen, ends with the end of the marriage, even if the wife is not the owner of the land, however, if there is a third party involved that would sustain a damage by the termination of this usufruct agreement, then is not going to terminate.

[Khun Jean]

His wife gets a new boyfriend or wants a divorce (statistically a lot more probable) .................. can you see how worthless a usufruct with your wife is now?????

From my understanding, a usufruct being done while married to a thai citizen, ends with the end of the marriage, even if the wife is not the owner of the land, however, if there is a third party involved that would sustain a damage by the termination of this usufruct agreement, then is not going to terminate.

I know this, it is very cleary stipulated in the law, but some lawyers keep on making these usufructs anyway.

It keeps the money coming in. they are not accountable anyway.

[Canada]

Does the fact that I have done a superficies with my "GF "as opposed to my "wife" matter? We are not married and have been living together for less than a year.

[travelmann]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Oooh - I'll put you out of your misery!

Agreed, that as it now appears to stand, the usufruct is worth zilch. You seem to have made the transfer into the wife's name first, then at a later date, got a usufruct from her with your name. No point - this arrangement can be nullified by the wife, and you have no usufructuary rights.

Now, if your plan had gone as originally thought of, you'd have been okay. You got the usufruct from the developer / seller, registered that FIRST, then immediately after (probably even same day) did the title transfer into your wife's name. You're in a strong position then becasue the usufruct wasn't given to you by your wife, therefore can't be cancelled.

If you're in a happy marraige, then run with it. If things are a little dodgy, then gradually get around to giving it to a child (if you have one). You still won't have any hold over the dealings in the property, but then neither will the wife, so your ongoing occupancy is much more secure.

His wife gets hit by a bus tomorrow and killed........................can you see any value to a usufruct now?????????/

His wife gets a new boyfriend or wants a divorce (statistically a lot more probable) .................. can you see how worthless a usufruct with your wife is now?????

Yes Jeanne I know about this but usufructs do have value as mentioned, she gets hit by a bus....................erm and come to think of it she is more lilkely to get killed in a car accident in Thailand . peace of mind for 100 baht.

Not everyone has a usurfruct for the divorce reason I had mine for the above circumstance. For divorce as stated he should do it before he is married and include a third party on the usufruct

Edited December 4, 2010 by travelmann

[Pib]

@Pib A usufruct that is not worth anything, i'll leave it as an exercise for you to find out why that is (hint wife/spouse/third party).

Why even bother to do it? 10.000 baht for a 100 baht registration fee? Smart lawyer, or actually a scamming lawyer (as in telling you something that is not true and make money from that)?

Sure, the fee is only about 100 baht at the land office, but the contract adds many more details to the usufruct agreement. Usufructs are about the best approach, closest a person can get to "kinda" owning land in Thailand.

Educate me please. What is there to add?

Sure. The Usufruct Contract specifically spells out the terms and conditions for the Grantor/Owner (da wife) and Usufructuary (me) such as taking care of the property, right to lease/sublease the property, who pays any taxes/duties, limitation on early termination/indemnification, breach of contract terms, binding effects under the law, arbitration, etc. This contract, provided in English and Thai, is filed with the chanote/land office in addition to the standard usufruct statement on the chanote.

For those who feel a usufruct provides no benefits/safeguards then they shouldn't get one; for those who feel a usufruct provides benefits/safeguards, they should get one.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Pib