Thailand To Extradite Russian Arms Dealer Viktor Bout To US: PM Abhisit

[flying]

Russia sold weapons to 53 different countries last year.

Link....substantiate the claim with something?

Edited November 17, 2010 by flying

[SergeiY]

I'm shocked and disgusted that so many people have strong opinions on this matter without having read the court documents, nor conducted any research.

Unless I'm missing something pretty obvious, there seems to be a total lack of evidence against this guy. KGB ?? He was a translator in the Russian army!

There was no warrant for his arrest at the time he was first detained, the circumstances of his arrest by Thai police was as a result of the hotel staff calling Thai police, the US warrant came 3 days later.

The first allegation of him being an arms smuggler was in a novel, thats a bit like accusing Da Vinci after reading the fictional work of Dan Brown... crazy <deleted>**ed up word that we live in.

If you want to comment on this story then at least get a grasp of the facts..

You are serious aren't you. You are missing something very obvious. Try reading newspapers or google or something before making such a foolish post. Your lack of information is mind boggling.

Can you recommend some reading?

All this 'he was KGB', 'he may talk about Russian secrets', he is the man that movie with Nicolas Cage was about and so on sounds very foolish as well.

[mark45y]

Russia sold weapons to 53 different countries last year.

Link....substantiate the claim with something?

Russia’s military equipment is known worldwide, and state arms trading corporation Rosoboronexport is one of the biggest players on the market. RT spoke to its chief about current deals and future trading plans.

RT Anatoly Isaikin, General Director of Rosoboronexport. Thank you very much for taking time for our program today. Mr. Isaykin, what countries does Russia trade with in the arms market?

Anatoly Isaikin: It’s easier to say what countries Russia doesn’t trade with. Last year we supplied weapons to 53 countries all across the globe.

RT, previously known as Russia Today, is a global multilingual television news network based in Russia.

OK that is your free google look up service for today. Ask me again and I will reply google it yourself. You think I would lie to you? The next time you want to question my credibility or honesty try google yourself first. You just make yourself look silly by being uninformed by asking for links to information that is common knowledge to anyone with a hint of sense.

[flying]

OK that is your free google look up service for today.

easier to post a link

http://rt.com/news/russia-arms-trade-rosoboronexport/

RT: Russia used to lead in the international arms market. Then Russia’s place was taken by the Americans, but now Russia is gradually coming back. What place does Moscow rank?

AI: You’re right. The Soviet Union, but not Russia, was one of the biggest suppliers of military equipment and weapons. Since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union, significant changes took place, first of all, in its military-industrial complex. A significant part of the biggest enterprises remained in the territory of independent states.

Since the beginning of 2000 supplies of Russian military equipment and armament have been constantly growing. If we started with almost $3 billion – I mean in 2000 – then in 2009 we targeted $7.4 billion.

small fries I guess next to the *recorded* US sales....

Edited November 17, 2010 by flying

[mark45y]

I'm shocked and disgusted that so many people have strong opinions on this matter without having read the court documents, nor conducted any research.

Unless I'm missing something pretty obvious, there seems to be a total lack of evidence against this guy. KGB ?? He was a translator in the Russian army!

There was no warrant for his arrest at the time he was first detained, the circumstances of his arrest by Thai police was as a result of the hotel staff calling Thai police, the US warrant came 3 days later.

The first allegation of him being an arms smuggler was in a novel, thats a bit like accusing Da Vinci after reading the fictional work of Dan Brown... crazy <deleted>**ed up word that we live in.

If you want to comment on this story then at least get a grasp of the facts..

You are serious aren't you. You are missing something very obvious. Try reading newspapers or google or something before making such a foolish post. Your lack of information is mind boggling.

Can you recommend some reading?

All this 'he was KGB', 'he may talk about Russian secrets', he is the man that movie with Nicolas Cage was about and so on sounds very foolish as well.

I know in person we would be able to communicate well but sometimes in writing I really have no idea what you are talking about.

If you are asking me for a reading list about Bout I would suggest you try Google. I am frankly tired of being a information source for lazy people who post on TV.

You know I don't think you are a bad guy but tone down the anti American rhetoric a bit. We all know you don't like America but that fact sometimes colors the logic of your posts.

If you stick to the subject and argue with reason and logic instead of pejorative statements about a country your intellectual reputation would be enhanced rather than categorized as hate speech.

I know the Israelis sell weapons to Georgia because they want to force Russia to stop selling anti aircraft missiles and nuclear technology to Iran.

It is a complicated world. Assume all nations are amoral and you will have less emotional stress.

[mark45y]

OK that is your free google look up service for today.

easier to post a link

http://rt.com/news/russia-arms-trade-rosoboronexport/

RT: Russia used to lead in the international arms market. Then Russia’s place was taken by the Americans, but now Russia is gradually coming back. What place does Moscow rank?

AI: You’re right. The Soviet Union, but not Russia, was one of the biggest suppliers of military equipment and weapons. Since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union, significant changes took place, first of all, in its military-industrial complex. A significant part of the biggest enterprises remained in the territory of independent states.

Since the beginning of 2000 supplies of Russian military equipment and armament have been constantly growing. If we started with almost $3 billion – I mean in 2000 – then in 2009 we targeted $7.4 billion.

small fries I guess next to the *recorded* US sales....

That American weapons are superior to Russian weapons and sell better is certainly not a surprise to anyone. Is this news to you?

[Piengrudee]

US tourist pay top dollars, sometime out bid the Germans in Nana. Russians are stingy Mafia in Pattaya. Who should Thailand side? No brainer.

[flying]

That American weapons are superior to Russian weapons and sell better is certainly not a surprise to anyone. Is this news to you?

Not at all ...have been a competitive shooter/reloader all my life.

Aside from that does everything you say have to be such a pompous diatribe?

Edited November 17, 2010 by flying

[Sigmond]

I consider there is only a commercial revenge from USA-weapon sellers upon Bout. But it is very sad that USA govt follows them. Even if Bout knew some secrets he has forgotten the details. OK -Russia lost, Americans showed to everyone they still can do everything they want in all the world. And what? Nothing good for the USA. Other countries will try to arrest their enemy everywhere they can. Because "big brother" did it

[webfact]

Photos: Viktor Bout Extradited to America http://bit.ly/8Xv1Qa /via@RichardBarrow

[webfact]

Victor Bout has landed in New York /The Voice of Russia

[flying]

When did they stop selling them to Iran?

try google yourself first.

http://rt.com/politics/ahmadinejad-russia-weapons-satan/

practice what you preach?

Edited November 17, 2010 by flying

[cdnvic]

I've had it with the insults, both against people and countries. If you lack the intelligence to debate without having to resort to insults then don't post, simple as that. Any more will garner a minimum 72hr suspension.

[mark45y]

That American weapons are superior to Russian weapons and sell better is certainly not a surprise to anyone. Is this news to you?

Not at all ...have been a competitive shooter/reloader all my life.

Aside from that does everything you say have to be such a pompous diatribe?

A long time ago I wrote a story about flying combat helicopters upside down. Helicopters don't fly upside down and that was my point. I suggested pilots carry a cat in the cockpit and when the cat was standing on the ceiling of the aircraft to take emergency measures to re adjust the attitude of the chopper. The whole story was a sarcastic jab at flying in weather that the pilot was not trained to fly in. America was turning loose combat pilots that were not instrument trained because of a shortage of pilots.

The article was meant to be read by pilots and it was. But my real purpose was better training to reduce loss of life of young men who were sent off to war without adequate training. There was also a duck in the story that was a secondary confirmation of flying upside down.

The whole thing was a bit pompous. But it got read by people who could make changes. And changes were made.

My writing style hasn't changed much in 40 years. It is still pompous and arrogant. But your asking me for a link implied that I was making up the fact that Russia sold weapons to 53 different countries last year. Everybody knows Russia, US, UK, France, Israel are big arms dealers. That's what countries do.

Independents throw a monkey wrench into the status quo and are usually stopped. The US supplied weapons to Afghanistan when the Russians were fighting Afghanistan. Now the Russians are doing the same thing.

Victor was a bit player he got caught. He made a bunch of money and now he has a problem. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

The whole merchant of death thing is an incredible ripoff anyway. The real merchant of death was Basil Zaharoff. He spoke 14 languages and started WWI for profit. Along with Alfred Krupp, the cannon king of Essen, the Schneiders of Creusot, Thomas Vickers, the English gun maker of Sheffield, Skoda, du Pont de Nemours, the American powder king, Colt and Winchester and Remington and Maxim. They were all "Merchants of Death." But the mightiest "merchant" among them, the man who played the largest role in the "merchandising" of munitions, the greatest market maker, was Basil Zaharoff. Bout is a rank amateur in comparison.

[Pi Sek]

But when there's a real or perceived threat, guess who goes running to the Yanks to place their sons and daughters in harms way???

Although I agree with the fact that the USA's self-nomination as the world's policeman is helpful at times - at the same time as being extremely hypocritical (and ironically funny if it wasn't so true) - I can honestly say that I have no idea idea 'who goes running to the Yanks to place their sons and daughters in harms way'. Certainly noone I know.

It has very little to do with "gonads" as you put it. It has much more to do with "money" - and may I dare to add that the ethical high ground often turns into an ethical low ground after a little insight.

Yeah, and plenty of us Yanks are sick and tired of being the role of the world's policeman. We're sick and tired of paying for it too. So why don't you Annointed Ones of Supreme Morality step up to the plate and show us dastardly Yanks how it should be done properly? You obviously don't do a lot of reading beyond left-wing liberal trash. I have posted on this thread at least twice about numerous SE Asian nations looking to the US to counter-balance China. Not ONE of you US bashers have even attempted to counter those statements. And if you want to look at hypocritical behavior of various other nations, there is plenty to be found; you just don't want to see it. Plenty of Euroland countries for example, do their share of manufacturing and selling weapons. Oh, I get it the Yanks must have made them do it.

Maxman, I think you have misunderstood me. I said that at times the US's self-bestowed "world policeman" role is useful. If I were a US citizen, I wouldn't want my country to take on this mantle, just as you suggest you don't.

But your claim that when there's a real or perceived threat, guess who goes running to the Yanks to place their sons and daughters in harms way - sorry, it doesn't wash. The US has needed no encouragement from anyone - least of all the countries they are "liberating" - before going in and solving a "world problem" like the WMD in Iraq or the communist revolution in Vietnam. The US goes in and does their thing regardless of any counter-argument, and that is why it is so mistrusted around the world. And ultimately it's US citizens like you who take the brunt of US foreign policy.

Noone's suggesting European countries are innocent and no-one's suggesting that many SEA nations don't want to play the US off against China, to optimise their own economic positions. But I think they are suggestive that innocence is quantitive rather than qualitative (i.e. it's not a question of "are you innocent", rather a question of "how guilty are you") - and the US heads the chart in terms of guilt. By the way, I suppose I am a leftie liberal, but I'm also a right-wing quasi-fascist.

Nonetheless, the US bashing we are seeing is a tangent off the main topic. In regards to whether or not Bout is an arms smuggler, I think the US bashers will acknowledge that he is implicit in supplying arms to various factions that he shouldn't have been; but they correctly argue that the USA doesn't really have such a high moral podium to propose such an argument. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, if you will. Personally I'm happy that he's been extradited, although it will just open another door in the black market... you can't argue with the laws of demand and supply.

This is an excerpt from my favourite all-time stand-up, the late Bill Hicks (from his London performance in 1994), language-edited for suitable forum posting. As above, not really relevant to the discussion but certainly relevant to differentiating US policies with the US population. And very funny.

People ask me where I stood politically you know. It’s not that I disagree with Bush’s economic policy or his foreign policy. But that I believe he was a child of Satan here to destroy the planet Earth. Yeah, I’m a little a little to the left there, I was. I was leaning that way. Yeah you know who else is going, little Quayle boy. Little Damien. Is that guy Damien? Tell me those blank empty eyes aren’t gonna glow red in the very near future. "Stop making jokes about me. I’ll spell potato any way I want. Rioters in LA, let’s nuke them. Bush was a softie - he held me back."

Frightening people man. Bush tried to buy votes towards the end of the election. Goes around, you know, selling weapons to everyone, getting that military-industrial-complex vote happening for him. Sold 160 fighter jets to Korea and then 240 tanks to Kuwait and then goes around making speeches why he should be Commander-in-Chief because, “We still live in a dangerous world.” Thanks to you, you git! What are you doing? Last week Kuwaitis had nothing but rocks!

They’re arming the world man. You know we armed Iraq. I wondered about that too, you know during the Persian Gulf war those intelligence reports would come out: “Iraq: incredible weapons – incredible weapons.” How do you know that? “Uh, well… We looked at the receipts. Ah but as soon as that cheque clears, we’re going in. What time’s the bank open, 8? We’re going in at 9!”

Ohoh looks like Mr. Major was on the hot seat there for a second too. Little Iraqgate, little rapscallion he is. “Did we send, did I… did… I’ll have to check Maggie’s old calendar.” What’s funny about this. Every one of your papers says that you guys sold Iraq “machine tools”… which Iraq then converted into military equipment. I have news for you folks, a cannon is a machine tool. Your Orwellian language notwithstanding, it’s a machine, it’s a tool. Our papers in the States have the same thing.

We sold Iraq “farming equipment” which Iraq then “converted”. How do they do this? “Simsalabim simsalabim aa salabim sim sim sim salabim.” Wow! It was a chicken coop, it’s now a nuclear reactor! This war’s for Aladdin.” Farming equipment which they converted into military, okay, you got me I’m curious, exactly what kind of farming equipment is this? “Oh okay, well it’s stuff for the farmers of Iraq.” Yeah? What? “Ooh okay, ar well ooh one of the things we gave them was for the little farmer, a new thing we came up with called er the er, flame-throwing rake. No, it was for the farmer, see. He would rake the leaves and then just turn around and fire! But you know what the Iraqis did with that?” There’s no trees in Iraq, what are you sending them rakes for, you git? “We could have done our research better perhaps yes.” What else did you sell ‘em? “Okay er one of the other things we gave ‘em was a new thing… for the farmer. The, er, armoured tractor. No, see, farmers when they farm look over their shoulders at times and they won’t see a tree and they’ll hit it maybe and there’ll be a wasps nest in the tree and the wasps will come in and sting ‘em. So we put four inches of armour all over the tractor. And a turret to shoot pesticides on the wasps. Yeah but you know what the Iraqis did with that? Can’t trust ‘em.”

[mesohappy]

<br /><br /><br />

It is a shame that this guy was setup by the Thai and US authoraties in a sting opperation. Ok so maybe he took the bait, but if some people offered you millions to do a deal could you resist. Its a load of BS. About time the US took care of the thugs in it's own country rather tan trying to set up foreign nationals, in foeriegn countries.

How many millions was the Thai government offered to allow the extradition? The whole thing stinks.

Geez, were you born naive, or is it an acquired attribute from the Book of Winnie the Pooh and Hot Chocolate??? How else would go about nabbing someone as crafty and shrewd as Bout???

If the US were so sure thay have a case against this guy then they should have gone through an international agency like interpol to get this guy. Though frankly it isn't about whether this guy is guilty or not! it's about the way the US conducts itself on the world stage, Frankly even Freinds of the US ar fed up with thier anticts.

Another classic case is the US's attempt to extradite a UK citizen for hacking into US defence computers while looking for information on UFO's. The guy is slightly mentaly disturbed, but even so Why doesn't the US have him trieds in the UK? which I think I'm right in saying was offered by the UK, but turned down by the US.

You Yanks &lt;deleted&gt; up your own country and think it's cool to do they same in other countries, using lies, deceit, and offers of dollars to get what you want.

Guessing you're a not so bright brit who's forgotten his own country's history.

[cdnvic]

I've had it with the insults, both against people and countries. If you lack the intelligence to debate without having to resort to insults then don't post, simple as that. Any more will garner a minimum 72hr suspension.

Guessing you're a not so bright brit who's forgotten his own country's history.

First volunteer... bye bye

[carmine]

I think it's hilarious that no-one on this site realises what Russia might do in retaliation.

Think about it - the Americans now have an-ex KGB man in their country who can now spill every Russian secret he knows. If anyone is going to murder Bout, it will be his own people.

It was only a matter of time.

Have a safe trip to the plane, dude!

I am sure once airborne he can relax a bit with

the target removed from his forehead.

To be fair mate, thats prbably what the rest of us are thinking too, Ofcourse the biggest threat will be from his own.

[ryladie99]

It was only a matter of time.

Have a safe trip to the plane, dude!

I am sure once airborne he can relax a bit with

the target removed from his forehead.

It was only a matter of time, glad to see the U.S. is adamant that this man will stand trial and be accountable. If he is innocent as he says, then no harm. I doubt though, that the U.S. govt would go to these great lengths unless it had an iron tight reason. As an American, I think our justice system (while not perfect) does its best to ferret out right and wrong.

Have you seen the movie about the Arm dealer, Lord of War 2005, by Nicolas Cage... it was awesome story and I urged your guys seeing it. I then researched after that I have learned so much about Arm dealer, war, Money, weapons, and elite groups who control the world...my take and opinion.

[ryladie99]

<br /><br /><br />

It is a shame that this guy was setup by the Thai and US authoraties in a sting opperation. Ok so maybe he took the bait, but if some people offered you millions to do a deal could you resist. Its a load of BS. About time the US took care of the thugs in it's own country rather tan trying to set up foreign nationals, in foeriegn countries.

How many millions was the Thai government offered to allow the extradition? The whole thing stinks.

Geez, were you born naive, or is it an acquired attribute from the Book of Winnie the Pooh and Hot Chocolate??? How else would go about nabbing someone as crafty and shrewd as Bout???

If the US were so sure thay have a case against this guy then they should have gone through an international agency like interpol to get this guy. Though frankly it isn't about whether this guy is guilty or not! it's about the way the US conducts itself on the world stage, Frankly even Freinds of the US ar fed up with thier anticts.

Another classic case is the US's attempt to extradite a UK citizen for hacking into US defence computers while looking for information on UFO's. The guy is slightly mentaly disturbed, but even so Why doesn't the US have him trieds in the UK? which I think I'm right in saying was offered by the UK, but turned down by the US.

You Yanks &lt;deleted&gt; up your own country and think it's cool to do they same in other countries, using lies, deceit, and offers of dollars to get what you want.

Guessing you're a not so bright brit who's forgotten his own country's history.

Hello everyone

The truth will go free and no one is above it. Anyone who hides it will not keep it for long. American people who are progressive will not tolerate and let go. This is 21th century and the power of Google goes everywhere.I suggest everyone does his or her own library research then you can make your own conclusion and announce to the world. Unfortunately, certain thing you can not do and if you dare your life will not be the same. Take your pick and see if anyone wants tobe against the Money power. My take and opinion.

[mark45y]

You think the CIA will come to Thai Visa and snatch you away?

[yellow1red1]

This is truly a sad day for Soviet Russia...

Well it hasn't happened yet, (edit...yes it has I see) but I will be glad to see a Russian tried for any crimes he committed, and punished if found guilty.

It is disturbing that they think they are above thev laws of other countries, and can murder those who speak against them and then run to the safe haven of their homeland.

Are you talking about American soldiers who invade other countries and killing the people there?

I hope one day they face justice too and everyone of them get what they deserve.

you wanna see what serg is talking about??? search the video 'collateral murder'

Warning, you will see murder being committed

1. the RPG to get firiing permission was a Reuters news camera

2. listen to all yeehaw we got them, yahoo they drove over a body

3. the 2nd murder wave was on good samaritans with children trying to pick an injured victim - to get firing permission they call it picking up weapons and bodies???

http://www.huffingto...o_n_525569.html

anybdody who thinks the bloodthirsty yanks in this video are any better than Bout, are just as sick

FULL Version

it's disgusting, well it's murder

http://video.ilsole24ore.com/SoleOnLine4/Video/Mondo/2010/wikileaks-americani-iraq/wikileaks-americani-iraq.php

Edited November 17, 2010 by yellow1red1

[mark45y]

This is truly a sad day for Soviet Russia...

Well it hasn't happened yet, (edit...yes it has I see) but I will be glad to see a Russian tried for any crimes he committed, and punished if found guilty.

It is disturbing that they think they are above thev laws of other countries, and can murder those who speak against them and then run to the safe haven of their homeland.

Are you talking about American soldiers who invade other countries and killing the people there?

I hope one day they face justice too and everyone of them get what they deserve.

you wanna see what serg is talking about??? search the video 'collateral murder'

Warning, you will see murder being committed

1. the RPG to get firiing permission was a Reuters news camera

2. listen to all yeehaw we got them, yahoo they drove over a body

3. the 2nd murder wave was on good samaritans with children trying to pick an injured victim - to get firing permission they call it picking up weapons and bodies???

http://www.huffingto...o_n_525569.html

anybdody who thinks the bloodthirsty yanks in this video are any better than Bout, are just as sick

FULL Version

it's disgusting, well it's murder

http://video.ilsole24ore.com/SoleOnLine4/Video/Mondo/2010/wikileaks-americani-iraq/wikileaks-americani-iraq.php

Do you think Thailand should evaluate every action in wartime of every country when trying to uphold its treaty obligations about extradition? Just wondering.

[Pi Sek]

This is truly a sad day for Soviet Russia...

Well it hasn't happened yet, (edit...yes it has I see) but I will be glad to see a Russian tried for any crimes he committed, and punished if found guilty.

It is disturbing that they think they are above thev laws of other countries, and can murder those who speak against them and then run to the safe haven of their homeland.

Are you talking about American soldiers who invade other countries and killing the people there?

I hope one day they face justice too and everyone of them get what they deserve.

you wanna see what serg is talking about??? search the video 'collateral murder'

Warning, you will see murder being committed

1. the RPG to get firiing permission was a Reuters news camera

2. listen to all yeehaw we got them, yahoo they drove over a body

3. the 2nd murder wave was on good samaritans with children trying to pick an injured victim - to get firing permission they call it picking up weapons and bodies???

http://www.huffingto...o_n_525569.html

anybdody who thinks the bloodthirsty yanks in this video are any better than Bout, are just as sick

FULL Version

it's disgusting, well it's murder

http://video.ilsole24ore.com/SoleOnLine4/Video/Mondo/2010/wikileaks-americani-iraq/wikileaks-americani-iraq.php

How do you get from 1-2 guys with cameras over their shoulders to 5-6 guys with AK47s and RPGs? The 'spotter' in the chopper has the legal right to request firing permission?? Disgusting! It's his call - he should be charged with multiple murders.

And they wonder why "insurgents" attack their military installations - so much for winning 'hearts and minds'.

[mark45y]

Reply to Pi Sek.

So as a result of this you think Thailand should not have extradited Viktor Bout? Or what?

[jdinasia]

Is this thead about Iraq?

[mark45y]

Is this thead about Iraq?

Most threads seem to have two components. One is the topic and the other is everyones distaste for US policy.

I thought this one was about Viktor Bout but I could be wrong.

[random]

Is this thead about Iraq?

Most threads seem to have two components. One is the topic and the other is everyones distaste for US policy.

I thought this one was about Viktor Bout but I could be wrong.

So if people see the extradition as US policy then they have the right to discuss US policy, like it or not your mob are not very well liked at the moment, and 'yeehawing' over this matter is quite pathetic tbh, it just shows you for what you are, and trust me on this, what you are is very far from what you would like to be.

Edited November 18, 2010 by random

[jdinasia]

Sorry Random,

but to actually extradite Victor Bout was not a US decision. It was a Thai decision. It has NOTHING to do with Iraq

edit to add ----

Who I am is exactly who I want to be. Feel free to bring in crap totally unrelated to Thailand but since it is unrelated to Thailand I would expect it to disappear As for US policy .... this is about anything but US policy. It is about Victor Bout and the Thai decision to extradite him ... and that only

Edited November 18, 2010 by jdinasia

[flying]

One is the topic and the other is everyones distaste for US policy.

boom there it is.......again