US Captors Of Alleged Arms Dealer Viktor Bout Detail Thailand Sting

[Tracechain]

I guess I have neglected to ask ONE key question of the EuroLanders on this thread: and that is if you are of the belief that the US is an evil, ever-corrupt, imperialistic empire to be roundly condemned as often as possible, then WHY is it you rely upon the US to foot the vast majority of the bills for EuroLand's defense??? Personally, I (and a fast growing number of my compatriots) are all for yanking our troops home to defend our own borders, which sorely need it. And the US needs can then drastically reduce our Defense budget which is ripe for a good whacking. So, have it EuroLanders; walk your talk and tell your gov't to tell the US to GTFO. Ooops...then your generous vacation allowances, socialized health care, early retirement, 35 hour work weeks, etc., just might have to take a good whacking too...

Amen brother.

[Lancelot]

I guess I have neglected to ask ONE key question of the EuroLanders on this thread: and that is if you are of the belief that the US is an evil, ever-corrupt, imperialistic empire to be roundly condemned as often as possible, then WHY is it you rely upon the US to foot the vast majority of the bills for EuroLand's defense???

As I understand it, Germany contributes funds for barracks maintenance, etc for US troops stationed there.

But I take your point and wonder if some of the anti USA crowd is willing to pony up more tax money to pay for their own defense. NATO has helped to keep the peace in Europe for the past 60 years. Before that, Franco-Prussian War 1871; WWI 1914; WWII 1939...

But, now its different right?

Its not like Russia would ever turn off natural gas or anything, just to say hello, remember who calls the tune here

[Gers1873]

It's funny how no matter what the US does, no matter how many they kill, no matter whom they arm and years later end up making an enemy, they are always above persecution.

I can already hear the death to ChiangMaiThai chants from the USA patriots here, but if you calm down for a moment and think about it, the rhetotic coming from the DEA and CIA 'most dangerous man on earth' etc etc. it is beyond ironic and beyond hypocritical. Somehow that badge and that authority that comes with (US) government office makes everything you do okay.

I agree.

Suggest a read through this (especially the second rankings chart): Who is the world's biggest arms dealer?

Biggest arms dealer - I would guess the USofA. SMARTEST is Israel who during the Iran/Iraq war sold weapons through third-parties to both sides.

[Pongpat]

So the trial has already begun? In the US media?!

I guess they are "informing" and "educating" the to bee jury so that it will go smother the day that "justice" will happen.

Trust the yankees to do a stupid thing like this.

Tiger

Tiger...are u from European Country that the so called "Yanks" saved your asses twice...give me a break

[brahmburgers]

Suggest a read through this (especially the second rankings chart): Who is the world's biggest arms dealer?

I looked at the chart. America is the world's biggest single country, but if the hodgepodge of European countries were one country (even without Russia added) they would be the the biggest arms exporter.

I guess I have neglected to ask ONE key question of the EuroLanders on this thread: and that is if you are of the belief that the US is an evil, ever-corrupt, imperialistic empire to be roundly condemned as often as possible, then WHY is it you rely upon the US to foot the vast majority of the bills for EuroLand's defense??? Personally, I (and a fast growing number of my compatriots) are all for yanking our troops home to defend our own borders, which sorely need it. And the US needs can then drastically reduce our Defense budget which is ripe for a good whacking. So, have it EuroLanders; walk your talk and tell your gov't to tell the US to GTFO. Ooops...then your generous vacation allowances, socialized health care, early retirement, 35 hour work weeks, etc., just might have to take a good whacking too...

and while you're at it, tell the Europeans, next time they have a world war among themselves, and get to their customary ripping eachothers' heads off, they can probably call on Uncle Sam (as they always resort to doing) to fix their messes. The bad boys across the sea will come over, sacrifice tens of thousands of their own servicemen, and straighten out the ever-tussling Europeans, as they did twice in the 20th Century. Not only that, the victors will do all they can to assist the losers (most recently, the Nazis and the Japs) so their economies rebound mightily, and then the Yanks will commence to buying their cars and radios by the millions.

[mark45y]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

Ah, the U.S. governments B.S. interrogation techniques? Why not water board Mr. V. Bout, it works and it’s “highly controversial”

He was involved in a Sting operation drawn up and conducted by DEA who are well none to fabricate stories, only my grandmother could tell from her lazy boy chair in the living room.

As far as dangerous. Who is more dangerous? U.S. government and their shock troops in Middle East, Russian Special Forces, Israeli Special Forces. U.S. government basically had another player in this vast game removed so other could profit.

Victor was selling weapons to the FARC. The other FARC weapons supplier is Venezuela. Do you really think the US wants Venezuela to profit?

[ScubaBuddha]

For those who are not familiar with conspiracy laws - such as myself - the so called "evidence" in conspiracy cases just seems absurd.

"At their next meeting, in Copenhagen, Smulian used the real name of his employer and his nickname, "The Merchant of Death."

"We marveled that Smulian would do that, but it was just great evidence," says Milione."

and

"At one point the undercover agents said they wanted sniper rifle scopes so they can "start blowing the heads off of American pilots," Milione says, adding that Bout responded "Yes.""

No wonder that in most of the European countries these laws don't exist. The fact that your friend calls you by your nickname "The Merchant of Death" or that you say "yes", is heavy evidence of conspiracy in America. Indeed, a mere nod in silence can be enough to prove an "illegal agreement" - the necessary element for conspiracy.

However, the fact is that Mr. Bout shall look at himself in the mirror, as it is there he can see the one to blame. He should've known that the Americans were out to get him.

You are quoting just two lines, sound bytes if you will, from a several years long investigation. Understand that the prosecution is not merely relying on these two statements in their case. They are put here so that detractors, such as yourself, can understand in simple terms that Bout knew what he was agreeing to.

Under US law conspiracy (only one of the many charges laid against Bout) is simply two or more people who agree to commit a crime, then commit an "overt act in furtherance." You and I agree to kidnap someone, then I go buy duct tape. We have both committed conspiracy to commit kidnapping. That's all it takes.

18 U.S.C 371: Conspiracy

And your right, he should have known. But was greedy, and became sloppy due to ~20 years of largely trouble free business.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[rwhoov]

So the trial has already begun? In the US media?!

I guess they are "informing" and "educating" the to bee jury so that it will go smother the day that "justice" will happen.

Trust the yankees to do a stupid thing like this.

Tiger

Well, Tiger, why don't you move to Colombia where you haven't been able to take an out of town trip in your car without a large risk of being kidnapped by FARC and held for hostage where your ransom and money from drug dealing will be used to buy arms from Mr. Bout. As usual, your anti-American bias is so important to you that gloat in your ignorance. The only stupidity here is your post. My suggestion: grow up and do some research.

[ScubaBuddha]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

Ah, the U.S. governments B.S. interrogation techniques? Why not water board Mr. V. Bout, it works and it’s “highly controversial”

He was involved in a Sting operation drawn up and conducted by DEA who are well none to fabricate stories, only my grandmother could tell from her lazy boy chair in the living room.

As far as dangerous. Who is more dangerous? U.S. government and their shock troops in Middle East, Russian Special Forces, Israeli Special Forces. U.S. government basically had another player in this vast game removed so other could profit.

Victor was selling weapons to the FARC. The other FARC weapons supplier is Venezuela. Do you really think the US wants Venezuela to profit?

I'm afraid 90% of the anti-US pro-Bout posts on this thread show the same complete lack of understanding of the situation. Binary thinking at it's worse.

[Tracechain]

Good grief! This topic has covered everything from landmines to arms sales, who pays for billeting in Germany for the US, even the French Navy and its role in the American Revolution! If everyone who has posted here on this topic were to gather together, then we would have an alternate to the UN.

[mark45y]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

Ah, the U.S. governments B.S. interrogation techniques? Why not water board Mr. V. Bout, it works and it’s “highly controversial”

He was involved in a Sting operation drawn up and conducted by DEA who are well none to fabricate stories, only my grandmother could tell from her lazy boy chair in the living room.

As far as dangerous. Who is more dangerous? U.S. government and their shock troops in Middle East, Russian Special Forces, Israeli Special Forces. U.S. government basically had another player in this vast game removed so other could profit.

Victor was selling weapons to the FARC. The other FARC weapons supplier is Venezuela. Do you really think the US wants Venezuela to profit?

I'm afraid 90% of the anti-US pro-Bout posts on this thread show the same complete lack of understanding of the situation. Binary thinking at it's worse.

I am a dummy today. Could you explain what you mean?

[bhoydy]

anti-personnel mines

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

I see your point, but i don't think that FARC are interested in what the Columbians government has signed. It was them that was supposed to be purchasing the weapons, not the Columbian government. Two separate entities.

[animatic]

Good grief! This topic has covered everything from landmines to arms sales, who pays for billeting in Germany for the US, even the French Navy and its role in the American Revolution! If everyone who has posted here on this topic were to gather together, then we would have an alternate to the UN.

And come to as little consensus or less, in as long or longer a time.

[farangtopper1]

He shpould not be going to court in the USA! He did nothing wrong in the USA. He should be going to a UN court.

If he will be killed by some body it could be done by many countries because he knows a lot about everything also the USA.

Why is teh USA so into it to get viktor bout to go to court!

Viktor Bout should be in jail if he really did what he did.

But I think also all arms dealers should be going to court te be punished also countries.

[mark45y]

Eishaheen said,”U.S. government basically had another player in this vast game removed so other could profit.”

I said, “Victor was selling weapons to the FARC. The other FARC weapons supplier is Venezuela. Do you really think the US wants Venezuela to profit?”

What is dumb about that. I understand you think it is dumb buy why?

[ScubaBuddha]

There are 300+ million Americans. No wonder some are narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses.

There are also many who can think circles around most other humans, in a ratio resembling that in most social groupings. And even more who are of average intelligence, kind hearted, moderately well traveled, know other cultures, and appreciate common sense, These last don't seem to get the big press... because they don't stand out. But they represent the great majority of American citizens. That doesn't mean they are also the motivated voter zealot blocks that win congressional elections regularly.

If only 6 % of them have a passport to travel, how are we supposed to meet them?

Actually it's closer to 30%. Understand too that until a couple years ago we could travel to Canada, Mexico, and Caribbean with no passport. Even now you can enter land and sea boarders if you have the high tech drivers license/state ID card.

I'm actually quite surprised at the number of Americans in Thailand, both tourists and expats, considering those passport ownership numbers.

Scuba, you and I are clearly descendants from the

'more outgoing gene lines' in the American gene pool.

We met last year if I remember correctly.

Yes we did, and yes we are. lol And it's those "narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses." types that make it very easy to not live in the states anymore.

[Tolley]

It is all a big joke really when you think about it.

The US are the biggest arms dealers on the planet.

They were the ones that originally armed the mujahadein when the Russians were in Afghanistan.

They also armed and supported Saddam Hussein in his early days.

The pick and swap sides and sell arms here and there so I take anything the US government or for that matter the British, French or Russian governments say with a pinch of salt.

They are hipporcrits the lot of them.

[ScubaBuddha]

Ah, the U.S. governments B.S. interrogation techniques? Why not water board Mr. V. Bout, it works and it’s “highly controversial”

He was involved in a Sting operation drawn up and conducted by DEA who are well none to fabricate stories, only my grandmother could tell from her lazy boy chair in the living room.

As far as dangerous. Who is more dangerous? U.S. government and their shock troops in Middle East, Russian Special Forces, Israeli Special Forces. U.S. government basically had another player in this vast game removed so other could profit.

Victor was selling weapons to the FARC. The other FARC weapons supplier is Venezuela. Do you really think the US wants Venezuela to profit?

I'm afraid 90% of the anti-US pro-Bout posts on this thread show the same complete lack of understanding of the situation. Binary thinking at it's worse.

I am a dummy today. Could you explain what you mean?

I'm agreeing with you Mark. Lots of uninformed posters are shooting from the hip, like the one you replied to.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[harsh4]

The agents said after two hours they had heard enough. They gave the signal and Thai police and DEA agents swept into the room. As Bout put his hands up, according to Milione, he muttered: "The game is over."

Quote of the Day as, indeed, his game is over.

The game has only just begun. How many people is Bout willing to rat out to save his own skin?

Indeed...the game might be far from over...It's naive to believe everything that the DEA chief says in a public statement...there's a lot more to this than appears on surface...how can one guy be supplying arms singlehandedly to become the 'most dangerous criminal on the face of the earth' ? Why was the russian government so upset ? Where do the arms come from ? Where does he get his contacts of 'customers' from ? Why is the US so desperate to get him ? Does he know things that would undermine the US officials ? We hear stories of how the drugs/arms markets and dealers often have 'arrangements' with the law enforcement authorities. Not saying any official US body involved but is that impossible ? What does the CIA usually do ? This whole thing is more than murky and best not to take sides in a hurry...

[mark45y]

It is all a big joke really when you think about it.

The US are the biggest arms dealers on the planet.

They were the ones that originally armed the mujahadein when the Russians were in Afghanistan.

They also armed and supported Saddam Hussein in his early days.

The pick and swap sides and sell arms here and there so I take anything the US government or for that matter the British, French or Russian governments say with a pinch of salt.

They are hipporcrits the lot of them.

Don't forget Australia. Australia is the 9th largest arms importer in the world. What do they do with all those weapons?

[DiamondKing]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

THAT IS IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT THE AMERICANS ARE SAYING

I don,t believe everthing I hear and they are now using the press to spout off and gloat about setting the guy up

Trial by Press

I will beleive it when the tapes are shows

SURELY THEY TAPED ALL THIS RIGHT then there is no question

Dk

[personchester]

The agents said after two hours they had heard enough. They gave the signal and Thai police and DEA agents swept into the room. As Bout put his hands up, according to Milione, he muttered: "The game is over."

Quote of the Day as, indeed, his game is over.

The game has only just begun. How many people is Bout willing to rat out to save his own skin?

Too True.

The USA - land of the free and plea bargaining.

Who would bet against a deal being done here for some tasty information!

Well, Bout could ease his legal position in the US if he can provide important 'info' about his global arms dealing activities involving Russia, or any other countries, and if regarded as important by the US authorities then his extradition from Thailand will go down as ... "The Eagle has landed"

[ThaiFelix]

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

No, for the anti USA crowd nothing is loud enough. If the US ceased to exist, the anti USA gang would shift their frustrations to another country. They are just unhappy people that need a whipping boy and, for now, the US fits the bill

PS-If Mr. Bout were as innocent as some proclaim, why would he have shown any interest in meeting FARC rebels with the express purpose of selling them weapons to kill people?

You obviously miss the point completely!! No one is saying he is innocent, rather there are others who are just as guilty and get away with it because its 'unofficial' government policy. Oh, and because they trust in god. What a laugh.

[cdnvic]

This thread is about the operation that resulted in Victor Bout's capture, who saved who's ass in WW2 is as irrelevant as when we crushed the US invasion of Canada (actually, the Mohawk indians were largely responsible for that).

Please just get back on topic.

[ThaiFelix]

It is all a big joke really when you think about it.

The US are the biggest arms dealers on the planet.

They were the ones that originally armed the mujahadein when the Russians were in Afghanistan.

They also armed and supported Saddam Hussein in his early days.

The pick and swap sides and sell arms here and there so I take anything the US government or for that matter the British, French or Russian governments say with a pinch of salt.

They are hipporcrits the lot of them.

I agree wholeheartedly, except for the last line. I do know a lot of Americans here who openly detest their country's foreign policies. But they are highly educated, not like some on this site.

The one I always remember is "There are no Us troops in Cambodia.................... haha

[Robby nz]

But thats off topic.

Who would now be the arms dealer to take over from VB?

Guarantee they have great connections in the US to have so sucessfuly got rid of the competition.

Isnt what they are doing, making evidence public that will sway any jury they can find before a triel, a big no no?

And coming out with statements like "He is the most dangerous criminal in the world" before he is even convicted of anything also out of order.

And this is only the first day after they flew him back, or is it the second, lost count.

When the PR smear is finished there wont be anyone in the good ole US who 'dont know for sure' he is guilty as charged.

fair trial, yea right!

Edited November 19, 2010 by sbk
off topic quotes removed

[Lancelot]

Good grief! This topic has covered everything from landmines to arms sales, who pays for billeting in Germany for the US, even the French Navy and its role in the American Revolution! If everyone who has posted here on this topic were to gather together, then we would have an alternate to the UN.

Naaa, the gang is just getting warmed up

By the way, I was relaxing in a Pattaya go-go, and when I went to check bin I noticed that while I had drunk three beers I was being billed for six. When I complained about the over billing, my waitress informed me "Thai people not do, you CIA do."

So... it looks like the I'm wrong and the USA is the cause of all the world's misfortunes

[mark45y]

But thats off topic.

Who would now be the arms dealer to take over from VB?

Guarantee they have great connections in the US to have so sucessfuly got rid of the competition.

Isnt what they are doing, making evidence public that will sway any jury they can find before a triel, a big no no?

And coming out with statements like "He is the most dangerous criminal in the world" before he is even convicted of anything also out of order.

And this is only the first day after they flew him back, or is it the second, lost count.

When the PR smear is finished there wont be anyone in the good ole US who 'dont know for sure' he is guilty as charged.

fair trial, yea right!

Don't forget OJ or the recent terrorist who slipped 199 of 200 charges. Of course I am not in the Pentagon anymore and I can't tell you without a doubt that the US does not support independent arms dealers. But I don't know of any offhand.

Since you know why the US arrested Bout. Other than your anti US leanings do you have any factual data that would suggest the US arrested him to as you said, "get rid of the competition?"

PS I left our Russia because I didn't know how to separate the war dead from when they were on Germany's side and when they switched sides and fought for the Allies.

Edited November 19, 2010 by sbk

[bassman]

Amazing how the anti americans have hijacked this thread with the yank this and yank that. What about one nasty profiteer that did not care where his arms and munitions landed, whether a landmine to mame a child on his way to school or explosives to muslim terrorists.

I am glad that he is off the street and the message to these peddlers is that they are not above the law.

[Robby nz]

Amazing how the anti americans have hijacked this thread with the yank this and yank that. What about one nasty profiteer that did not care where his arms and munitions landed, whether a landmine to mame a child on his way to school or explosives to muslim terrorists.

I am glad that he is off the street and the message to these peddlers is that they are not above the law.

Convicted and ready for a life behind bars.

No real need for a trial.

And you wonder why some are anti yank.