Dynamat (Car Sound Deadening)

[heliox]

Hi Guys,

I am currently building up an old Mazda RX3 running a series 6 13b single turbo for those with an interest in the rotarys,I am still working on the chasis,steering and shocks at the moment.

It won't be long and I will need to strip out the interior and lay dynamat which is expensive everywhere else in the world so assuming it will be here as well.My question is where can I find dynamat, anyone know how much it is (bulk) .and is there another product that does the same job of about the same quality but at a cheaper price locally available? Almost forgot is there a business that anyone knows of that does it well?I'm sure the stereo installers would do it around the place to a cerain standard  as I am planning on installing a stereo at a later date. But the car is a noisy SOB, road noise, engine, exhaust and the fuel pumps in the boot add to the noise,I would want to do guards ,firewalls ,doors ,floor , boot etc etc. Should I want to hear the engine brap brap brap I can always wind down the windows, best of both worlds.   

Heres a cpl of pics

Well thanks in advance

Cheers 

[powderpuff]

Where do you live?

[heliox]

Where do you live?

I knew I forgot something ....I live in Pattaya.Car is currently in Seacon area Bgk.

[MoonRiverOasis]

Every decent car audio shop will sell and fit "Dynamat" style damping sheets, and prices are very good - e.g. to do two layers throughout an entire Pajero Sport (floor, roof, and all panels) costs ~30k Baht all-up.

However, noise control technology has progressed massively since Dynamat was "the brand" for this kind of thing, and there's far, far more effective ways to reduce the type of noise you're going to be combatting in this car.

Id' say what you really want is a good MLV barrier (Mass Loaded Vinyl) with a quality decoupler. Looking at your prictures, Id' say a good application of MLV would get you probably 20+dB more noise attenuation than even 2 layers of aluminum layered butyl damping sheet (ala Dynamat Extreme).

Have a look around the DIYMA forums for more info and suppliers: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/ - there's some very knowledgable guys posting there, and a few vendors..

Unfortunately, I'm yet to see a single Thai Car Audio shop that's up with the times on this stuff (probably not that surprising I guess), so you may have to import the bits yourself and DIY it to get the right result. Perhaps it's worthwhile contacting some of the vendors and seeing if they have a Thai distributor.. (if you find one, do let me know )

[MikeyIdea]

I used RocketSound in Bangkok, can't remember the name of the material they put in but it was some sort of black sticky heavy mat, cost nearly 25,000 bath in total for a small Toyota Avanza. Carpet out and the whole bottom covered, insides of car doors etc.

Point I would like to forward about what I got is that it was absolutely NOT good for the price

Disappointed I wandered off to HomePro where they sold 10 mm heat insulation white foam, 2.4 meters by 1 m something for less than 500 bath per roll. I ripped out the interior and the carpet and put that 10 mm foam over the whole floor and suddenly the car got quiet. 2,500 bath at HomePro worked much better than 25,000 bath at RocketSound. Took a weekend and most of the evenings in the following week to get it done. Improvements if I were to do it again: The rolls are so cheap that I would have bought one more than I ever thought I would need, just to have some spare if I mess up. I would also have bought a roll of 5 mm foam, the 10 mm foam is too thick for some places. Glue and several smaller sandbags would have been good to have around to weigh down the mat to make the glue stick.

I post a picture of the crap they used, does not work well at all. The car in the picture is not my car, that's a CRV from their website

[MoonRiverOasis]

I used RocketSound in Bangkok, can't remember the name of the material they put in but it was some sort of black sticky heavy mat, cost nearly 25,000 bath in total for a small Toyota Avanza. Carpet out and the whole bottom covered, insides of car doors etc.

Point I would like to forward about what I got is that it was absolutely NOT good for the price

Disappointed I wandered off to HomePro where they sold 10 mm heat insulation white foam, 2.4 meters by 1 m something for less than 500 bath per roll. I ripped out the interior and the carpet and put that 10 mm foam over the whole floor and suddenly the car got quiet. 2,500 bath at HomePro worked much better than 25,000 bath at RocketSound. Took a weekend and most of the evenings in the following week to get it done. Improvements if I were to do it again: The rolls are so cheap that I would have bought one more than I ever thought I would need, just to have some spare if I mess up. I would also have bought a roll of 5 mm foam, the 10 mm foam is too thick for some places. Glue and several smaller sandbags would have been good to have around to weigh down the mat to make the glue stick.

I post a picture of the crap they used, does not work well at all. The car in the picture is not my car, that's a CRV from their website

It's not that butyl damping sheets don't work, it's just that this is not how they're meant to be used Damping sheets should be used in patches, targetting panels that can generate additional sound through their own vibrations. Damping materials do very little to sound passing through them. Complete coverage like this is a total waste of product and time - the same result could have been achieved with a few strategically placed dinner-plate sized pieces on the doors and roof, at a total cost of maybe 1000-2000 Baht.

Using damping sheets like this is a bit like trying to layer up bug screen mesh to the point where it all becomes watertight

What you've found and done with the homepro foam is half of the MLV sound deadening technique. The idea with this is you first lay down a decoupler (usually closed cell foam), then lay down a heavy layer of mass-loaded vinyl on top - the combination of the two provides incredible amounts of sound deadening. If you were to add another layer of something thick (1/4"), heavy, flexible and non-toxic on top of that foam, the sound deadening of the whole lot would improve another 2-3 times over the foam layer alone

The only problem is that no Thai Audio Shops seem to understand the topic at all, and the products are by definition heavy, making them expensive to ship out here in smaller one-off types of quantities

Edit: here's a link to a vendor with the right sort of products:

http://www.secondskinaudio.com/

[MikeyIdea]

I used RocketSound in Bangkok, can't remember the name of the material they put in but it was some sort of black sticky heavy mat, cost nearly 25,000 bath in total for a small Toyota Avanza. Carpet out and the whole bottom covered, insides of car doors etc.

Point I would like to forward about what I got is that it was absolutely NOT good for the price

Disappointed I wandered off to HomePro where they sold 10 mm heat insulation white foam, 2.4 meters by 1 m something for less than 500 bath per roll. I ripped out the interior and the carpet and put that 10 mm foam over the whole floor and suddenly the car got quiet. 2,500 bath at HomePro worked much better than 25,000 bath at RocketSound. Took a weekend and most of the evenings in the following week to get it done. Improvements if I were to do it again: The rolls are so cheap that I would have bought one more than I ever thought I would need, just to have some spare if I mess up. I would also have bought a roll of 5 mm foam, the 10 mm foam is too thick for some places. Glue and several smaller sandbags would have been good to have around to weigh down the mat to make the glue stick.

I post a picture of the crap they used, does not work well at all. The car in the picture is not my car, that's a CRV from their website

It's not that butyl damping sheets don't work, it's just that this is not how they're meant to be used Damping sheets should be used in patches, targetting panels that can generate additional sound through their own vibrations. Damping materials do very little to sound passing through them. Complete coverage like this is a total waste of product and time - the same result could have been achieved with a few strategically placed dinner-plate sized pieces on the doors and roof, at a total cost of maybe 1000-2000 Baht.

Using damping sheets like this is a bit like trying to layer up bug screen mesh to the point where it all becomes watertight

What you've found and done with the homepro foam is half of the MLV sound deadening technique. The idea with this is you first lay down a decoupler (usually closed cell foam), then lay down a heavy layer of mass-loaded vinyl on top - the combination of the two provides incredible amounts of sound deadening. If you were to add another layer of something thick (1/4"), heavy, flexible and non-toxic on top of that foam, the sound deadening of the whole lot would improve another 2-3 times over the foam layer alone

The only problem is that no Thai Audio Shops seem to understand the topic at all, and the products are by definition heavy, making them expensive to ship out here in smaller one-off types of quantities

Edit: here's a link to a vendor with the right sort of products:

http://www.secondskinaudio.com/

Glad I did something right, albeit half of the whole job, it was one hec_k of a job to put it in

That cheap 10 mm foam actually worked so well that I'd like to recommend it to others. It's good sound insulation to pretty much unbeatable price. I cannot recommend to do it yourself though, it's not that it is difficult, it's just that it takes days. And my knees hurt for a week after

Thanks for good info

[powderpuff]

Yeah so the car audio place I use is 15 mins from Seacon Square.

Mirage Audio.

Proceed south on SriNakarin Road - through the lights at UdomSuk (through the construction (fly-under) Go over the bridge BangNa Trad. Take the next flyover straight ahead. next you'll pass Makro & Carrefour. be in the left lane. Mirage is about 300 to 400 meters up the road on the left.

He quoted me 8000 for the lookalike stuff.

Your job should be 5000-6000 because yours is a much smaller car.

Good Luck

Love the resto.

[MikeyIdea]

I used RocketSound in Bangkok, can't remember the name of the material they put in but it was some sort of black sticky heavy mat, cost nearly 25,000 bath in total for a small Toyota Avanza. Carpet out and the whole bottom covered, insides of car doors etc.

Point I would like to forward about what I got is that it was absolutely NOT good for the price

Disappointed I wandered off to HomePro where they sold 10 mm heat insulation white foam, 2.4 meters by 1 m something for less than 500 bath per roll. I ripped out the interior and the carpet and put that 10 mm foam over the whole floor and suddenly the car got quiet. 2,500 bath at HomePro worked much better than 25,000 bath at RocketSound. Took a weekend and most of the evenings in the following week to get it done. Improvements if I were to do it again: The rolls are so cheap that I would have bought one more than I ever thought I would need, just to have some spare if I mess up. I would also have bought a roll of 5 mm foam, the 10 mm foam is too thick for some places. Glue and several smaller sandbags would have been good to have around to weigh down the mat to make the glue stick.

I post a picture of the crap they used, does not work well at all. The car in the picture is not my car, that's a CRV from their website

It's not that butyl damping sheets don't work, it's just that this is not how they're meant to be used Damping sheets should be used in patches, targetting panels that can generate additional sound through their own vibrations. Damping materials do very little to sound passing through them. Complete coverage like this is a total waste of product and time - the same result could have been achieved with a few strategically placed dinner-plate sized pieces on the doors and roof, at a total cost of maybe 1000-2000 Baht.

Using damping sheets like this is a bit like trying to layer up bug screen mesh to the point where it all becomes watertight

What you've found and done with the homepro foam is half of the MLV sound deadening technique. The idea with this is you first lay down a decoupler (usually closed cell foam), then lay down a heavy layer of mass-loaded vinyl on top - the combination of the two provides incredible amounts of sound deadening. If you were to add another layer of something thick (1/4"), heavy, flexible and non-toxic on top of that foam, the sound deadening of the whole lot would improve another 2-3 times over the foam layer alone

The only problem is that no Thai Audio Shops seem to understand the topic at all, and the products are by definition heavy, making them expensive to ship out here in smaller one-off types of quantities

Edit: here's a link to a vendor with the right sort of products:

http://www.secondskinaudio.com/

I am very intrested in your explanation above for when I need to change car in a year or 2, do-it-yourself-job a-la-Thai. Pay someone to do most of the work but check him very carefully while he does it...

What do you mean with "then lay down a heavy layer of mass-loaded vinyl on top - the combination of the two provides incredible amounts of sound deadening"

I would still think of using the 10 mm heat insulation foam, cheap and good! What's the second layer to put on top? Mass loaded vinyl... What is that stuff (step 2 ion their website?). And of course, can it be found in Thailand>

[MoonRiverOasis]

I am very intrested in your explanation above for when I need to change car in a year or 2, do-it-yourself-job a-la-Thai. Pay someone to do most of the work but check him very carefully while he does it...

What do you mean with "then lay down a heavy layer of mass-loaded vinyl on top - the combination of the two provides incredible amounts of sound deadening"

I would still think of using the 10 mm heat insulation foam, cheap and good! What's the second layer to put on top? Mass loaded vinyl... What is that stuff (step 2 ion their website?). And of course, can it be found in Thailand>

Have a look at Luxury Liner Pro, but ignore the fact that they're constantly pimping their damping sheets

http://www.secondski...y-Liner-Pro.php

This is just one example of the technique of course, but the idea is a thin layer (1/4" / 5mm) of closed cell foam goes down first, which on it's own helps attenuate higher frequency sounds, plus acts as a mechanical decoupler. You then lay down something heavy but flexible on top, as mass is required to attenuate lower frequency sounds.

The heavy layer alone (without a mechanical decoupler) would be good for reducing mechanical noises and attenuating lower frequency sounds, but would let higher frequencies pass right through (this is why damping sheets are not a cure-all). The foam layer alone would absorb higher frequency sounds, but doesn't have the sheer mass required to absorb lower frequency sounds. The two together achieve a better result than the sum of each individually.

Mass Loaded Vinyl is the most popular "heavy" layer as it's flexible, non toxic, easy to work with and has very high mass by volume. Closed cell foam is the most popular decoupler as it's density works well at keeping it's shape under the weight of the MLV and factory carpets, while also being a great high frequency attenuator.

You don't have to use these exact products of course, just something along similar lines. A heavy and flexible rubber layer could be used instead of MLV if it were readily available and cheap for example.

[MikeyIdea]

I am very intrested in your explanation above for when I need to change car in a year or 2, do-it-yourself-job a-la-Thai. Pay someone to do most of the work but check him very carefully while he does it...

What do you mean with "then lay down a heavy layer of mass-loaded vinyl on top - the combination of the two provides incredible amounts of sound deadening"

I would still think of using the 10 mm heat insulation foam, cheap and good! What's the second layer to put on top? Mass loaded vinyl... What is that stuff (step 2 ion their website?). And of course, can it be found in Thailand>

Have a look at Luxury Liner Pro, but ignore the fact that they're constantly pimping their damping sheets

http://www.secondski...y-Liner-Pro.php

This is just one example of the technique of course, but the idea is a thin layer (1/4" / 5mm) of closed cell foam goes down first, which on it's own helps attenuate higher frequency sounds, plus acts as a mechanical decoupler. You then lay down something heavy but flexible on top, as mass is required to attenuate lower frequency sounds.

The heavy layer alone (without a mechanical decoupler) would be good for reducing mechanical noises and attenuating lower frequency sounds, but would let higher frequencies pass right through (this is why damping sheets are not a cure-all). The foam layer alone would absorb higher frequency sounds, but doesn't have the sheer mass required to absorb lower frequency sounds. The two together achieve a better result than the sum of each individually.

Mass Loaded Vinyl is the most popular "heavy" layer as it's flexible, non toxic, easy to work with and has very high mass by volume. Closed cell foam is the most popular decoupler as it's density works well at keeping it's shape under the weight of the MLV and factory carpets, while also being a great high frequency attenuator.

You don't have to use these exact products of course, just something along similar lines. A heavy and flexible rubber layer could be used instead of MLV if it were readily available and cheap for example.

Thanks for good explanation MoonRiverOasis

[heliox]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the wealth of info. Will be tracking down some rubber matting which I hear is sold in Homepro of varying thicknesses and the foam they lay under carpets should be good together with it. Probably use some dynamat which I think will be good in the doors and hood lining and see how it goes from there.Not looking forward to doing it but......

Here's a site that explains it all

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

Thanks again

[MoonRiverOasis]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the wealth of info. Will be tracking down some rubber matting which I hear is sold in Homepro of varying thicknesses and the foam they lay under carpets should be good together with it. Probably use some dynamat which I think will be good in the doors and hood lining and see how it goes from there.Not looking forward to doing it but......

Here's a site that explains it all

http://www.sounddead...i-bin/index.cgi

Thanks again

Hrrmm, I didn't have any plans to do this in any of my current cars, but you've now sparked my interest - seems I'm going to have to find a Homepro and see what they have

The site you've linked there has got it basically right (refreshing for a vendor), but it's important to note it's not about products or brands, just the properties of the materials being used.

Damping Sheets are used selectively to add mass to large, flat panel areas that are prone to "drumming". This might include doors, roof, trunk lids, and floor panels. Clench a fist and wrap on panels to see which (if any) are susceptible (many older cars simply don't have a problem with this). When you find a panel that has an audible "overhang" when thumping it, apply a section of butyl sheet to the center of the affected area. 20% to 30% of the total panel area is usually enough to reach the point of diminishing returns.

The next thing is the decoupling layer - this you apply *everywhere*- firewall, floor, sidepanels, doors, trunk lid and roof. Use a good contact adhesive for this. For doors, use it on the inside (between the door and the removable door skin) for best results, if possible. The properties you're looking for in this layer are something lightweight, dense, and not easily crushable, as it'll need to hold up under the weight of the mass layer, carpets etc. Closed cell foam rubber and that colorful gray padding made from clothing factory offcuts are best. Neoprene might look OK, but it's too easily and permanently crushed.

The last layer is the mass layer. As noted previously the properties of this are simply something heavy, flexible an non-toxic, without getting too thick. Apply this layer to the firewall, floor, side panels, trunk and the inner door skins. Do not apply to the roof or trunk lid however - there's no way it'll stay up, and very little road noise comes from these areas anyway. The idea is to try and create a continuous barrier that "floats" above the steel surfaces of the car. Use gaffer/100 MPH tape or similar to seal up the seams.

If you want to eek out the last of the noise, the last stage is to fashion foam rubber inserts into the kick panels, and into the gap between the front wheel arches and the front doors to combat any remaining tire noise that can leak through these two places.

Good luck

[MikeyIdea]

This site has closed cell foam - wholesale I suppose - http://www.sunbow.co.th/products_detail_en.php?id=24&proc_id=30

Close to where I live incidentally

[SoloFlyer]

I was at Klong Thom on the weekend, lots of audio shops had various kinds of foam, some that looked rather hi-tech.