How About Sin Sod Demands After Marriage

[Nepal4me]

Thank you all for your help, at least thanks to the people that provided useful and thoughtful posts, e.g. Pattaya_Fox, ThaiExpat and mattnich. Less thanks to the people that provided such thoughtless input as "just throw her a months salary" and "buy yourself out of the wedding now".

The good news is I got to the bottom of the situation, having lived and worked in Asia for many many years although only 3 in Thailand, you'd think I'd have a sense of the Asian method of not getting directly to the point. As a falang, when we want to say something, we just darn well say it, but the Asian 'face' thing requires that you verbally circle the issue for a while before getting down to the issue at hand.

As in many Thai/falang relationships, there are misunderstandings due to language problems. Neither my wife nor I have mastered each other's languages although we are both making efforts. The misunderstanding here is that my wife thought I didn't want to show money at the ceremony because by falang standards, showing money for the purposes of showing off is vulgar. My wife also admitted, she didn't like that practice, actually she brought it up before I and before I subsequently agreed with her on it. She determined from that, that I didn't want to pay a sinsod, even though I had said, how about 200,000 instead of my wife's suggestion for 400K. So today after great effort, my wife admitted the whole thing was about money and face. I was quite surprised and repeated my offer of 200,000 baht. As per my readings of past posts regarding sinsod, 200K seems to be a generous but not lavish amount to pay.

Anyway, my wife, who I do indeed care for very much and her father wanted to build a house for my wife and me on his land. The money was to buy teak from a nearby unused house and to rebuild a new house. Dad owns about 100 rai or more and "our" house would be for us rather than for the other relatives in the region. Although my wife and I have no plans to relocate to her village for many years (if ever) we would stay there when we visit the village and when we decide to build somewhere else, we can re-use the teak wood. It seems that building a house, then taking it down some years later and rebuilding with the same wood in another location is not unusual practice. I'm told by my wife that they can build a very simple house for 200,000 baht, although less lavish than for 500K, but I personally have no idea of these costs. It will be ours (my wife and mine) in theory but I have no delusion that I'll ever recoup my money (nor do I care). I am also assured that there will be no further requests for more money for additional house related things. I explained my study of the situation via thaivisa.com.

All's well that ends well (so far). I'll fork out the 200K, my wife seems to be happy about that. She BTW is 100% confident that in future I'll help out the family with important things like education for the children beyond just our kids, and I will.

Thanks again for all the help.

[a2396]

"I just want to ensure I'm doing the right thing and sending the right message"

Loud and Clear.

What is it with these Farangs?

They act like this Sin Sod is another scam meant just for Farangs.

Even a Thai ditch digger will scrape up enough for a respectable showing on the big day.

At a Hi So wedding the stakes can be  a million(usually 999,999bht)

Isn't it the way it's done in Thailand?

If you don't have the cash or can't part with it if you do, don't get married.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far a my experience goes this so-called "sin sod" is garbage and a rip-off from start to finish. It just sets the mentality of the family for further money sucking, when they see some stupid "falang" hand over hundreds of thousand or even millions of BHT. Taking care of the wife and SOMETIMES the family is one thing. Setting up a permanent life-time annunity fund for all-takers is another. Why not just put the girl up on the auction block and sell her off to the highest bidder?? Whoever puts up the most money wins the prize - right? Otherwise, the family ain't happy.

[Nepal4me]

As far a my experience goes this so-called "sin sod" is garbage and a rip-off from start to finish. It just sets the mentality of the family for further money sucking, when they see some stupid "falang" hand over hundreds of thousand or even millions of BHT. Taking care of the wife and SOMETIMES the family is one thing. Setting up a permanent life-time annunity fund for all-takers is another. Why not just put the girl up on the auction block and sell her off to the highest bidder?? Whoever puts up the most money wins the prize - right? Otherwise, the family ain't happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think this qualifies as a useful post. In fact it's plain dumb.

[jackr]

As far a my experience goes this so-called "sin sod" is garbage and a rip-off from start to finish. It just sets the mentality of the family for further money sucking, when they see some stupid "falang" hand over hundreds of thousand or even millions of BHT. Taking care of the wife and SOMETIMES the family is one thing. Setting up a permanent life-time annunity fund for all-takers is another. Why not just put the girl up on the auction block and sell her off to the highest bidder?? Whoever puts up the most money wins the prize - right? Otherwise, the family ain't happy.

I don't think this qualifies as a useful post. In fact it's plain dumb.

Yes, but you should be listening to posts from all angles instead of just praising those who you think are telling you what you want to hear. Report back to us in a couple of years with your thinking on your time with your new family.

Best of luck btw

[Khutan]

Just negotiate and negotiate.

Consider things like this

1. How much is coming back to you after its paid, the whole thing may only be for show.

2. How much is directly going to your wife and baby, and over what period of time.

3. If your wife is no good, how much can you claim back over what period of time. This is reasonably common with a big Sin-Sod like that.

4. What is going towards building a house etc for your wife.

As you are paying a large amount of money, you can ask these questions.

My experience was a bit different.

My wife's family said that the money would sit in their pocket for a day, and after the costs of the wedding, that I hadn't already paid, everything came back.

We used the money to start the house for my wife, that I said I would build for her after we got married.

Now my wife has somehow included the total budget for the house, the gold and the sinsod etc etc, and her family happily agree that I paid a 2m Sin-sod. In fact if I think carefully, I think the family got about 10k out of it.

So talk and negotiate, and be polite. If the family take you through what is going to happen to the 500k, maybe you can suggest one thing and another. As an example, I know another guy whose family wanted about 250k. He was happy to pay, but was troubled by the precedent. So after talking, they said they wanted the money to put into the bank in case he died or divorced her, then she could be supported. The suggestion came to spend the money on a reasonable rice rarm and have share-croppers on it, so there was always an income. The 250k was paid, but there is also some respect.

Good luck

[mpdkorat]

How about this situation.  You (oops) get the girl pregnant, she's a good girl (except she did actually have sex), i.e. not a working girl, 26 years old, has a degree, you like her, you have a kid coming so you marry her. 

The family is pretty typical, from the south, quite Buddhist, relatively small family.  Since she's prego, have a small informal wedding away from the prying eyes of the village.  The subject of Sin sod came up once before the wedding, the wife-to-be said, what about 400,000 bt?  The husband-to-be said, that's high, what about 200K.  End of story, not spoken of again, until now, a month after the wedding, wife says, 'oh yeah, about that sin sod thing, it's now 499,999 and mom wants it tomorrow".  Husband says, "sin sod is a strange idea, think no need to pay".  Wife says, mom thinks you need to pay. 

Anybody here of such a situation?  I would love to get a perspective from some of the Thai ladies on the forum.  What to do?????  Constructive comments would be great.  One liners that are clever only to yourself are really not needed as this is a serious request.  Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

500K is not so high for middle class or rich Thai's. This and much greater amounts are paid all the time. In most cases the money is returned to the couple after the Wedding. In some cases the father of the bride will come up with all or some of the money to assist the groom who is struggling to come up with the figure the father thinks his daughter is worth. In poor families they will pay between maybe 10K to 40K. (My brother in law just paid 40K) There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. Asking after the wedding is not sin sod, its rip off. I think the mother in law is putting pressure on your wife to ask you for the money. I would just ignore it and hope it goes away.

[Heng]

500K is not so high for middle class or rich Thai's. This and much greater amounts are paid all the time. In most cases the money is returned to the couple after the Wedding.

I'd say in most cases the bride and groom (and their assistants when necessary for larger amounts) take the funds to the bank after the engagement ceremony.

[a2396]

500K is not so high for middle class or rich Thai's. This and much greater amounts are paid all the time. In most cases the money is returned to the couple after the Wedding.

I'd say in most cases the bride and groom (and their assistants when necessary for larger amounts) take the funds to the bank after the engagement ceremony.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This concept makes some sense whereby the money will be used to help the couple establish a household or be set aside for the brides financial protection in the future. In my case, the money was used to pay of the house mortgage. My wife's name is not even on the property ownerwship record (deed) ie, she has gained nothing from this transaction. For this and other reasons, I have a bit of a negative attitude about some traditions of money and marriage in LOS.

[The Skipper]

"There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. "

As a general rule, a months salary is appropriate.

Forking over a months pay should be pretty painless. Agreed?

Edited August 13, 2005 by The Skipper

[bkkmadness]

"There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. "

As a general rule, a months salary is appropriate.

Forking over a months pay should be pretty painless. Agreed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who's months salary? I don't think that is a general rule at all, peoples monthly salries vary quite a bit.

[The Skipper]

"There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. "

As a general rule, a months salary is appropriate.

Forking over a months pay should be pretty painless. Agreed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who's months salary? I don't think that is a general rule at all, peoples monthly salries vary quite a bit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A dishwasher may pay 5 or 10 thousand baht.

A movie star can come up with a million.

I thought that was the guage used by the locals?

I married into quite a large family of Thai/ Chinese, that's the way they work it.

I don't think there is a hard & fast rule.

[Rinrada]

"There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. "

As a general rule, a months salary is appropriate.

Forking over a months pay should be pretty painless. Agreed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds about right ....so(to be generous) lets say 30 days at 150 bt a day......Yep

[britmaveric]

"There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. "

As a general rule, a months salary is appropriate.

Forking over a months pay should be pretty painless. Agreed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds about right ....so(to be generous) lets say 30 days at 150 bt a day......Yep

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

4000bht - hehehe no problem!!!

[Pattaya_Fox]

"There are no hard and fast rules on the amount that should be paid. It is all really about face. "

As a general rule, a months salary is appropriate.

Forking over a months pay should be pretty painless. Agreed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds about right ....so(to be generous) lets say 30 days at 150 bt a day......Yep

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good job you didn`t take February as your example

[Rinrada]

[TRIPxCORE]

I am glad to hear that you got it worked out between everyone. Good luck to you guys.

[Nam Kao]

Hold on here! You guys actually TELL your wife REALLY how much money you have???

Say it isnt so, please

[bkkmadness]

Why not Nam Kao? She's your wife after all. If you don't trust her enough to let her know your finances why marry her in the first place?

Don't your wife know how much cash you have?

[Heng]

Hold on here!  You guys actually TELL your wife REALLY how much money you have???

Say it isnt so, please

For some of the posters here, NK, it's probably more difficult than hiding that $400 checking account and piggy bank.

[ray23]

Hold on here!  You guys actually TELL your wife REALLY how much money you have???

Say it isnt so, please

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For some of the posters here, NK, it's probably more difficult than hiding that $400 checking account and piggy bank.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it sounds as if found the happy meduim congratulations. But I do agree about revealing your moneatry value early on. Remember even educated your wife would have been lucky to have been earning 40 K baht a month. If you intend to have a realtionship in a marriage at some point your spouse needs to know about the financial side of things. But only after they have become accustomed to the realities connected with those finances.

If you can help the family then by all means do so, but if it were I would make sure that it was in fact things that would inhance the families future.

This really is an interesting subject. I was doing a voulteer teaching on the staff level of a univesrsity, not teaching engklish but getting them to use the language in conversation, which was a great experience.

I asked the following question about the dowery system. Is it good or bad?

Everyone Thia men included said yes that it was. So believe me this deeply engrained in this culture and applies to Thais as well.

I asked why it was good? What I was told was that the man would move into the wifes family and as such was an additional burden on the family, so he needed to help.

I know that as general rule this does not apply to us and more then likely does not always apply to a Thai marriage as well, on the levels that it did before.

But it is this cultures tradition, no matter what you do you are not going to change a Thai woman from being a Thai, anymore then they can change you completly. These are blended marriages and require adjustments from both sides. That means her and you at different times have to accept things that are different to each of you.

Based on your posts I think you knew what to do all along. I wish you and your bride the best in the difficult task of making a maariage last, not an easy thing to accomplish no matter where you are.

P.S. the Thia's that I assocaite with are great hard working people pay thier own way and never ask me for a thing other then my friendship. Yes there are con artist's out there, but is that really any different then where we originally came from?

[billd766]

Why not Nam Kao? She's your wife after all.  If you don't trust her enough to let her know your finances why marry her in the first place?

Don't your wife know how much cash you have?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not only does my wife know how much money I earn we have a joint bank account and as I am working in Pakistan she has closer access than I do. My Thai wife takes care of the money and tells me (gently sometimes) not to waste money and now I listen to her.

If I want to buy something reasonably expensive I will ALWAYS ask her first. I never used to so that as I saw money in the bank as a waste when I could spend it on something or anything.

She has certainly changed me for the better in that way.

Besides if I didn't trust her then why would I have married her?

My former wife in the UK knew how much I earned and she looked after the money over there.

There is no difference between them at least in that area.

[legaleagle]

The other side of the coin in that you are now family. Mom is mom to you too. And mom is king (queen?) in Thailand. If you are well off, then maybe you should be a nice guy here, and join the party. My mother-in-law is pretty quiet about satang, but I know that she appreciates some cash from time to time. She isn't poor (she has a truck, a bit of land, etc. up in Kanchanaburi), but she also isn't rich. My solution was to teach her to fish instead of giving her a fish. You know the old adage? I've set her up with a fish farm, and now she is getting income all the time from those randy little guppies. It was a pretty good solution from each side, and we're all happy. Maybe you could do something like that instead of a straight 500K handout that is going to be used for that new karaoke-enabled bigscreen TV.

[Nepal4me]

Well it sounds as if found the happy meduim congratulations. But I do agree about revealing your moneatry value early on. Remember even educated your wife would have been lucky to have been earning 40 K baht a month. If you intend to have a realtionship in a marriage at some point your spouse needs to know about the financial side of things. But only after they have become accustomed to the realities connected with those finances.

If you can help the family then by all means do so, but if it were  I would make sure that it was in fact things that would inhance the families future.

This really is an interesting subject. I was doing a voulteer teaching on the staff level of a univesrsity, not teaching engklish but getting them to use the language in conversation, which was a great experience.

I asked the  following question about the dowery system. Is it good or bad?

Everyone Thia men included said yes that it was. So believe me this deeply engrained in this culture and applies to Thais as well.

I asked why it was good? What I was told was that the man would move into the wifes family and as such was an additional burden on the family, so he needed to help.

I know that as general rule this does not apply to us and more then likely does not always apply to a Thai marriage as well, on the levels that it did before.

But it is this cultures tradition, no matter what you do you are not going to change a Thai woman from being a Thai, anymore then they can change you completly. These are blended marriages and require adjustments from both sides. That means her and you at different times have to accept things that are different to each of you.

Based on your posts I think you knew what to do all along. I wish you and your bride the best in the difficult task of making a maariage last, not an easy thing to accomplish no matter where you are.

P.S. the Thia's that I assocaite with are great hard working people pay thier own way and never ask me for a thing other then my friendship. Yes there are con artist's out there, but is that really any different then where we originally came from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is interesting that Thai men all feel the dowry is in fact an acceptable and appropriate thing to do. Some of the farangs on this board should consider this before just blurting out "Sinsod is bullsh1t and a Thai scam". It is part of the culture here and it started with an honourable purpose i.e. to help the family. Things are different in this day and age but tradition remains tradition especially in the villages.

I'm left with the feeling that in my case, my wife and her family gained some "face". They will be using the money to build a house on their land for my wife and me and the local people will see that. Our wedding was just family so nobody knows what sinsod was paid. Since mom and dad are building a house, the money has to have come from somewhere and the locals in the village will realize that sinsod was indeed paid. Although the asking number was a bit steep, at least the money wan't for mom and dad to buy toys.

As far as revealing my financial status, I agree, shouldn't let the cat out of the bag too soon. I have been dating this girl for a year and although until post our wedding I didn't provide many details of my financial situation. Over the course of a year when you are getting to know each other, certain things came up and there was no way to hide the fact that I have some assets. I tried to downplay it because I didn't want her to think I was wealthy. She has a financial background and there are some ways she can really help me with some investments in Thailand so what the heck, she's going to find out eventually so may as well get her using her financial skills to good use for our future together. I married her, I better darn well trust her.

[Nam Kao]

>>>Don't your wife know how much cash you have?

I love her to death and so far trustworthy, but i will not take the chance, people can change, why risk it?

If the family thinks your poor they wont hound her/you as much.

Plus it leaves you extra cash for other things......

-Nam

Edited August 14, 2005 by Nam Kao

[Dakhar]

What I do when family ask for money...

I put things in perspective. For instance, one uncle, who I never met before wanted to borrow 9K USD, and my gracious mother-in-law decided to volunteer my money for this loan. I it was a "safe" loan according to her.

So I put thing into perspective. If one is to assume that the avg. bachelor degreed Thai earns around 3KUSD anually, 9KUSD is worth to him approx. 3 years of earnings. So that would be worth approx. 90K USD. WOuld I loan out 90K here in the state..... ###### NO.

So, I said, I would loan the uncle the money, if he put his land up for collateral then I would loan the money. After he got wind of my demands.... he suddenly no longer needed the loan.

As far as a dowry, I have yet to pay a cent, and really do not plan on it in the future. We were married in the states, with no family from eiter side around. My wife doesn't compain, and so I figure all is well.

[Nam Kao]

Your a smarter man than me Dakhar, I would have just told the mother in law to get ######

I will remember the collateral thingy in my next attempted fleecing.

nam

[Nam Kao]

>>>>Besides if I didn't trust her then why would I have married her?

Yes but she can change, you can change etc etc etc

Ask anybody thats been divorced and taken to the cleaners - They will all tell

you "But i trusted her, she was sooo perrfect, how could this have happened".

Hindsight is 20/20

Why risk it?

[britmaveric]

it is interesting that Thai men all feel the dowry is in fact an acceptable and appropriate thing to do. Some of the farangs on this board should consider this before just blurting out "Sinsod is bullsh1t and a Thai scam".

Well I dont think every Thai man actually gave his opinion and I dare say you would be paying much more than a thai man would at any rate. If you are happy this is all that counts, but I'll stick with my statement sinsod isnt necessary anymore.

[LoveDaBlues]

I love my Thai GF and will continue to support her and help her family but I refuse to pay any sin-snot or whatever the he11 it's called. I understand it's a culture thing but my culture must be respected too. If she's not happy then she can find another farang.

Edited August 14, 2005 by LoveDaBlues

[Nam Kao]

Good for you LDB,

---------------------------------

Furthermore I think its better for the falang to come across as poor when you first meet.

Would she have really married you if you were poor? Think about it for a minute. Why didnt

she marry a poor Thai guy?

If you have already met one and not married, makeup a BS story you lost

everything etc etc (just for a few weeks) and sit back and see what happens.

Make sure the family hears this tragic news. Ask to borrow 500 baht from

a family member. Stop paying for stuff. Fake crying and really pour it on.

If she stays with you - she is a keeper. If she gets whiny and complains

and dumps you - feel very happy my freind as you have just dodged a major bullet

in your life.

Its a good test before marriage.

nam

Edited August 14, 2005 by Nam Kao