Having Name Included On New Home

[Thairover]

Hi all

I am getting married in Thailand to a Thai citizen and was wondering about info of having my name include on the House we purchased in Min Buri. I know I can not own the land. The City Hall said I needed a Thai I.d Card to do this or could not have my name on the deed. Is this correct Any thoughts on this would be helpful.

Thanks all

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Nope Rover...as a foreigner you can't get on the title as the law presently stands.

[george]

You can be included in the House Registration only if you have Thai residency (Residence Permit). See link to Residency in the new menu on top of this page).

[Pink Mist]

When I bought (payed for) our house, why did I have to have Passport photocopies and sign forms, was this to not lay claim to house, this stuff was all recorded and filed away.

I knew when I bought the thing that I was out of the picture as far as ownership but have allways wondered why I had to sign stuff.

[alanw]

A little twist on this subject.

Just after my Permanent Residency book was issued my lawyer insisted that I have my name entered on the Tabien Baan book (household registration book) for the house my company ownes in South Pattaya.

With lawyer and a stack of documents (all researched in advance by my lawyer) I went to Pattaya City Hall.

Waited for about 2 hours because many customers.

My turn came - nobody knew what to do. Confusion reigned for quite a while until my lawyer eventually convinced a senior official to call another office, at my expense (my mobile).

Result was advice that the request was appropriate and legal, and full details of how to transact the documents, create a new Thai ID number, and make entry in Tabien Baan.

Senior Officer (who speaks excellent English) then instructed the appropriate supervisor to go ahead.

PROBLEM - Supervisor refuses to handle the task, and makes it known very rudely and very loudly, Thai and English, that she hates farang, she believes that the law is wrong, and therefore refuses to complete the work.

Senior Officer now very embarrassed, because I had met him, and worked with him, several times previously in some charity work, and had developed a very pleasant friendship. He took over and completed the exercise, whilst the rude supervisor continued to express her feelings.

But there's something to add.

Whilst I had waiting my turn, an English guy came in with Thai girlfriend. He had on very brief running shorts with baggy legs, revealing almost everything, and a very baggy singlet, revealing most of his upper, very hairy, body. Girlfriend was scantilly dressed for any circumstance let alone visit a Thai government office. Both had open bottles of beer.

The farang, ignoring the queue, yelled at the first person he could see behind the counters that he wanted a Thai passport, on the spot.

When he was told it wasn't possible, and that he was at the wrong office anyway, he became very abusive, lots of very foul language, and walked around kicking the walls, chairs, etc. He continued this appraoch for some time, stating that he would not leave the office until he had a Thai passport. After some time the police were called and he and girlfriend were taken away.

It was then mentioned that incidents like this or similar happen frequently at that office.

Guess I can, up to a point, understand why the supervisor was not so keen about farang.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You can be included in the House Registration only if you have Thai residency (Residence Permit). See link to Residency in the new menu on top of this page).

But Georgie, residents are a kinda rare breed aren't they ?

[CMexpat]

Interesting post alanw, many thanks for that.

I have just received my permanent residence status. I am aware that if I would buy or built a house with my wife that I can have my name included on the "Tabien Baan", but what does it mean apart from the fact that it proofs that I live there.

I don't think it changes the ownership status but I have heard that she will not be able to sell the house without my prior approval. Is this correct?

Any comments to this issue will be greatly appreciated.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

She can sell the house without reference to you at all. She owns it not you. Your protection, if that's what you want, is to have her lease the property to you long term. You need a lawyer.

[Thairover]

I guess what it all gets down to really is as a farang I am second class in most aspects really in the Thai culture. Either I am looked at rude or ignorant or not impostant as I stated I am just that a farnag. I have been ignored and treated badly just because of who I am. Non-thai and white. It really is a shame in some ways but I brought it on myself when I started coming to Thailand. But this type of reverse racism (Which I think alot of this is in my opinion) will not stop me as I love my wife and I do really for the most part Love Thailand and its culture. The road may not be easy but it is the road I picked.

[alanw]

Thairover,

I like your summation.

- I agree there is is racism, discrimination, etc

- What worries me much more is the remarks my 23 year old son has to put up with, especially when just he and I are out together - some of them very obnoxious, most of which, although in Thai language, I fully understand

- I also agree with you - I chose this path, and in theory I'm free to take another, path except that, and I guess your probably in the same boat, I'm too far entrenched to withdraw.

But like you say, there are lots of positives too.

Regards

AlanW

[Thairover]

Hi Alan

You have brought up another aspect I have never thought of. We also plan on having children and my Thai is average and I hear what they say about me and my wife because they think I can not understand. I will never say anything even thou alot of things said are impolite. I.E slow dumb fat and how much you weigh and such... I have to live with it and that is part of being in Thailand. But would i want my son or daughter to go throught that is a good question.

I have a friend here in Bangkok and his family are Swiss. They have a son who was born here in Bangkok and educated in a Thai schools and university and is a Thai citizen fluent in Thai. He applied for a Job with Thai Airlines and they refused his application because he looks to much like a farang ( I.E white with blonde hair) even thou he has Thai I.d and passport and grew up in Thailand his whole life..25 Years or so. Its not fair but its Thai and as the saying goes..Mai bpen Rai..

We choose many things in life. I choose to live my life and try not to regert the choices I have a made.

[Dah fahrang]

I have a friend here in Bangkok and his family are Swiss. They have a son who was born here in Bangkok and educated in a Thai schools and university and is a Thai citizen fluent in Thai. He applied for a Job with Thai Airlines and they refused his application because he looks to much like a farang ( I.E white with blonde hair) even thou he has Thai I.d and passport and grew up in Thailand his whole life..25 Years or so.

How does he know this for fact?

Did he get an interview?

Did they tell him reasons for rejection at interview?

Or write to him explaining his rejection?

Or is this sour grapes?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

When I bought (payed for) our house, why did I have to have Passport photocopies and sign forms, was this to not lay claim to house, this stuff was all recorded and filed away.

I knew when I bought the thing that I was out of the picture as far as ownership but have allways wondered why I had to sign stuff.

You signed to acknowlege that your wife provided her own money for the purchase, and you had no claim whatsoever against the property.

[alanw]

Hi Thairover,

Further to the recent posts we have exchanged, including your post about the Swiss / Thai young man.

I've been here a long time, I've studied the history, I've worked a long time in work situations involving both farang & Thai, I've managed work-units involving all Thai subordinates, and including Thais from all social stratas, education levels, in BKK and out of BKK.

I've certainly learned that there are very strong benefits in being able to communicate well, especially in work situations and being able to have solid social interactions - but it does sometimes mean hearing things that are simply insulting - so much for Thai politeness.

The social interaction of politeness is, I think, quite interesting. I recall reading a book about cultural / behavioral comparisons in which the author (don't know name) made an interesting observation about 'the mask of politeness'. Author was suggesting that all societies have a mask of politeness, but the underlying real level of politeness in day to day interactions was a different, even very different, picture. Thailand is like all countries - you can encounter many very pleasant people, and you can encounter some very rude people. (Also some very arrogant and some very selfish people.)

I have some extra part-time work as a University lecturer in a Masters degree program, which provides further opportunities to pick up more knowledge & understandings of the culture, behaviors, thinking, etc. The vast majority of the students are a delight, some are so arrogant you almost feel like slapping them.

I've had the offers of substantial amounts of money to write a theses. I've had the offer of a new car 'If my daughter gest good results'. But I'll be quick to acknowledge that none of this is exclusive to Thailand.

The more I learn, the more I realize that i'll never fully understand it, and i'm becoming more relaxed about not fully understanding everything around me.

I've given many talks about 'Thai Cultural Awareness', for some diverse groups of farang, farang housewive groups etc.

One question that comes up often. "How can I assimilate completely into Thailand, Thai society etc ?"

The answer is quite simple - you can't.

Or you could answer the question a different way - we will always be 'visitors'.

Thailand is not a multi-cultural society, and quite possibly never will be. In fact most Thais are unaware of the concept of people of different racial backgrounds living together as one people.

If this comes up for discussion, most Thais (especially if they have never visited a farang country) can't envisage such a concept. The fact that the country has never been colonised is clearly one of the drivers of this picture.

On a different point - This is not the point you were making about the rejection by Thai Airways, however I know for a fact that their recruitment criteria revolves around two major factors: 1. must come from respected middle class or upper class family, 2. higher education.

Don't expect that the real reasons for rejection will be given openly.

But let's be honest, although many 'advanced*' countries have laws about discrimination in employment / equal opportunity etc., the reality is that employers find many ways around these laws so that they can create their own specific profile of the types of people they want to employee.

(*advanced - I sometimes wonder!)

One question - how many Essan faces do you see amongst Thai cabin crew?

Regards

AlanW

[Thairover]

IN regards to the questions about Thai Air

Your maybe correct and maybe I do not know the whole story but this is what i do know. There was an ad by Thai Air looking for Thai Nationals for positions. He applied with 1 friend who has the same background and education. Both with a degree.. His friend is Thai and he Swiss but Thai by birth, passport and I.D. They both went to the interview and his friend was interviewed. He was refused an interview at that time because he is not Thai even thou he brought along all the proper documentation I.D and passport. That is what his he and his Father told me. Maybe your right and there is more to the whole story. Yes there is always a chance of sour grapes.

God forbid we would have any essan crew on Thai Air

I would rather be second class in Thailand then first in most places..

I except where I am, I except where I live and I choose to live there, so in the end it is I who have choosen my own punishments.

[cbatson]

The City Hall said I needed a Thai I.d Card to do this or could not have my name on the deed.

Unless you are a Thai citizen, you cannot have your name on the title/deed as an owner. However, I have heard that it is possible for a foreigner to be the lienholder of a property (say you loan money to a Thai to buy a house), which gives you the legal right to force the borrower to sell the property in the event they default on your loan. In such a case your name would be on the title/deed as a lienholder. This is the same as is done with banks that make housing loans, and the bank is entered onto the title/deed as a lienholder.

Chuck

[PK2]

I guess what it all gets down to really is as a farang I am second class in most aspects really in the Thai culture. Either I am looked at rude or ignorant or not impostant as I stated I am just that a farnag. I have been ignored and treated badly just because of who I am. Non-thai and white. It really is a shame in some ways but I brought it on myself when I started coming to Thailand. But this type of reverse racism (Which I think alot of this is in my opinion) will not stop me as I love my wife and I do really for the most part Love Thailand and its culture. The road may not be easy but it is the road I picked.

I don?t see how you can bring racism into the property purchase debate in Thailand! The rules are clearly there before you showed up, and you play by them or face the consequences.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I would rather be second class in Thailand then first in most places..

I except where I am, I except where I live and I choose to live there, so in the end it is I who have choosen my own punishments.

So...maybe you should just get on with life and forget about trying to change that which is unchangeable ( aka whinging )

[Liberator]

Hi all

I am getting married in Thailand to a Thai citizen and was wondering about info of having my name include on the House we purchased in Min Buri. I know I can not own the land. The City Hall said I needed a Thai I.d Card to do this or could not have my name on the deed. Is this correct Any thoughts on this would be helpful.

Thanks all

Getting back to the original question of this thread I think it is worth clarifying the situation as I understand (and use) it. This information relates to building a new house and assumes that the foreigner has a registered lease on the land. I'm not certain of the procedures for transfering an existing house.

Firstly, there is mention of Tabien Banns, residency and many things. The tabien bann for a house is a record or the people who reside (or are registered as residing) in the house. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not prove ownership.

The Channot or other land title papers records the owner of the land, and as a foreigner you can't own land (other than in exceptional circumstances), so you can't have your name on it. The Channot will also record any liens there may be (or have been) on the land, including any leases. A foreigner can have a lease on the land and this WILL be recorded at the land office (provided it was registered as it should be if it is for more than 3 years).

As regards the house that is built on the land, the licence to build the house will record the owner of the house and this can be in the name of a foreigner. It requires a separate form signed by the registered landowner 'authorising' the building of the house even though the registered lease should confer that right to the tennant anyway. On completion of the house, these documents are registered at the Amphur Office, not the land office. This is when the Tabien Bann is issued (I have a number of 'blank' tabien banns, because no Thai Citizen is registered in these homes). The house is then the legal property of the foreigner. If the house is of single floor design and less than 100 square meters living area, it doesn't need a building licence, but you should obtain one anyway and record the foreign owner.

Details regarding the disposal of the house on completion of the lease period should be recorded on the land lease, and usually requires the landowner to purchase the house from the tennant at full market value.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Details regarding the disposal of the house on completion of the lease period should be recorded on the land lease, and usually requires the landowner to purchase the house from the tennant at full market value.

The registered proprietor would have to be a bit dim to sign something like that. That condition heavily favours the tenant

[easymoney]

This ploy was done alot by oldtimers here and the landowners usually was a family member or someone needing income yearly. The old going rate before the BKK people started the land price snatch and land prices going up was 500 baht per rai per year and most land went for 3 to 5 k a rai. So they were not dim witted at that time.That said today you would be hard pressed to get someone to do it.

[Liberator]

Details regarding the disposal of the house on completion of the lease period should be recorded on the land lease, and usually requires the landowner to purchase the house from the tennant at full market value.

The registered proprietor would have to be a bit dim to sign something like that. That condition heavily favours the tenant

Really? Something that heavily favours us poor farangs? Can't be true

I think you missed the point here, or probably I didn't explain it very well. The usual situation is that the land is registered in the name of the wife or girlfriend of the houseowner, and guess whose money was used to buy the land . Part of the agreed 'deal' on parting with the money is that a lease is registered at the same time that the land title is transfered.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I think that it gets too difficult to try to circumvent the law. Why...I wonder...do people use lawyers at home, then rely on pubs or places like this for so called ' legal ' advice.