WikiLeaks website again offline after company cuts DNS service

mark45y · December 9, 2010

It's hard to keep up.......

Wikileaks is currently mirrored on 1289 sites (updated 2010-12-08 19:07 GMT)

http://wikileaks.tryptamine.net/mirrors.html

LaoPo

If we move away form all the "debate" on here for a while, there is a clash of philosophies going on. The internet is all about cross broder non-nationalistic freedom of traffic flow while at governmental and trational media level everything remains as "competing" nation states replete with flowing nationalism and "accepted" controls. It was inevitable there would be a clash and this is building as a big one

It is an interesting clash of cultures. It is also a class clash. The ruling classes from the UK and Europe are not represented on Thai Visa. They rarely come to Thailand. Thailand is a cheap flight from Europe, England and Australia, not so with Americans. The ex-pats working in Thailand or offshore are rig pigs not graduates of Oxford or Yale. You get a different level of understanding.

Communism and socialism are bad words in America. Here on Thai Visa they are viable political alternatives. Democracy is a word with little flexibility in America where as in the rest of the world it has many meanings. In America, democracy is assumed to always be the better choice. It is assumed people will die for freedom. Here on Thai Visa most know better.

It would be nice to see people exchanging ideas rather than blasting each other with fixed immovable concepts.

It seems to me, to be a debating society of bigots on both sides. No one is flexible no one ever changes their mind. Both sides are convinced they are always right. No one ever admits they are wrong. If they are proved wrong, they simply walk away and never revisit the post to say, sorry, I was wrong.

I would like to think that Americans got a better understanding of Europeans here, or Iranians or whatever. In Pattaya I had Russian and Iranian friends. After the political rhetoric we found out we had a lot in common.

Has anyone learned anything from these threads about WikiLeaks? Has anyone changed their minds about anything? Has anyone become better informed?

WikiLeaks started out to be an international leaking website. Now, for the past six months at least, it has been almost exclusively American leaks. I think Americans are perhaps correct to think it is an attack (rightly or wrongly) vehicle against American policy.

hammered · December 9, 2010

It's hard to keep up.......

Wikileaks is currently mirrored on 1289 sites (updated 2010-12-08 19:07 GMT)

http://wikileaks.tryptamine.net/mirrors.html

LaoPo

If we move away form all the "debate" on here for a while, there is a clash of philosophies going on. The internet is all about cross broder non-nationalistic freedom of traffic flow while at governmental and trational media level everything remains as "competing" nation states replete with flowing nationalism and "accepted" controls. It was inevitable there would be a clash and this is building as a big one

It is an interesting clash of cultures. It is also a class clash. The ruling classes from the UK and Europe are not represented on Thai Visa. They rarely come to Thailand. Thailand is a cheap flight from Europe, England and Australia, not so with Americans. The ex-pats working in Thailand or offshore are rig pigs not graduates of Oxford or Yale. You get a different level of understanding.

Communism and socialism are bad words in America. Here on Thai Visa they are viable political alternatives. Democracy is a word with little flexibility in America where as in the rest of the world it has many meanings. In America, democracy is assumed to always be the better choice. It is assumed people will die for freedom. Here on Thai Visa most know better.

It would be nice to see people exchanging ideas rather than blasting each other with fixed immovable concepts.

It seems to me, to be a debating society of bigots on both sides. No one is flexible no one ever changes their mind. Both sides are convinced they are always right. No one ever admits they are wrong. If they are proved wrong, they simply walk away and never revisit the post to say, sorry, I was wrong.

I would like to think that Americans got a better understanding of Europeans here, or Iranians or whatever. In Pattaya I had Russian and Iranian friends. After the political rhetoric we found out we had a lot in common.

Has anyone learned anything from these threads about WikiLeaks? Has anyone changed their minds about anything? Has anyone become better informed?

WikiLeaks started out to be an international leaking website. Now, for the past six months at least, it has been almost exclusively American leaks. I think Americans are perhaps correct to think it is an attack (rightly or wrongly) vehicle against American policy.

Its an emotive issue. Very few will change position as everyone has their own ideals on beliefs on where the line on the continuum of freedom/control should be.

And remember this an internet webboard. In such places people can express their extremes. These type of fora have been compared to pubs. However, in a pub you must always be mindful of what you say as otjhers may react in a nasty way or you may just feel bad that you have upset someone. All that is removed on a webboard, which has advantages and disadvantages. It is easier to air extreme or controversial views but they are views that may not be acceptable to many. Maybe in a pub people would look for a middle or consensus that all could agree on to avoid problems. On a webboard that is rare. Also dont forget nationalism. Everyone has been raised in a nation state and to some degree or other that affects everyone on how they feel about their own and other countries.

bonobo · December 9, 2010

"I would think the most damaging allegation in the eyes of the US citizens would be that the US government assessed the Saudis as being the biggest funders of terrorism up to and including some high ranking ones, and yet kept this quiet and recently agreed a huge arms deal. That is something I doubt anyone would argue should be kept secret, and is a damning indictment of government as representatives of the people."

This is hardly news, it's been widely known for years. There have even been numerous news programs about where the money comes from. It's just embarrassing for the diplomats who got caught saying it "in writing".

The most damaging information is mostly what was known or said about other governments....

cr

The most damaging information to the Department of State was Hillary telling the diplomats she wanted them to spy on diplomats from other countries.

Damaging for Hillary's reputation maybe, but don't think it's surprising that this is going on.

cr

Not surprising at all. I would expect that just about every foreign service does this to some degree or the other.

SamritT · December 9, 2010

1289 sites and growing. ICT to shut / block them all.

SergeiY · December 9, 2010

You miss my point. War crimes or love letters, stolen or not it makes no difference in the States. The newspaper can publish them. Get off your hang up with bashing the US for a minute and read what I am writing. It is not against the law to publish anything in the US whether it is stolen or not. How the newspaper got it is irrelevant. It is not a false analogy. It is a perfect analogy. I unlike you am discussing WikiLeaks and not American war crimes.

I am discussing whistle blowing and you are mistaken when you think its about love letters or that would put lives at risk.

Has release of Wikileaks documents cost lives?

By Katie Connolly

BBC News, Washington 1 December 2010

After the release of an enormous haul of US defence department documents in August, Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell told the Washington Post: "We have yet to see any harm come to anyone in Afghanistan that we can directly tie to exposure in the Wikileaks documents."

But, he added: "There is in all likelihood a lag between exposure of these documents and jeopardy in the field."

After this latest release a Pentagon official, who wished to remain anonymous due to the sensitive nature of the material involved, told the McClatchy newspaper group that even three months later the US military still had no evidence that people had died or been harmed because of information gleaned from Wikileaks documents.

Daniel Ellsberg, the former military analyst who in 1971 released the Pentagon Papers which detailed government lies and cover-ups in the Vietnam War, is sceptical of whether the government really believes that lives are at stake.

He told the BBC's World Today programme that US officials made that same argument every time there was a potentially embarrassing leak.

"The best justification they can find for secrecy is that lives are at stake. Actually, lives are at stake as a result of the silences and lies which a lot of these leaks reveal," he said.

"The same charges were made against the Pentagon Papers and turned out to be quite invalid."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11882092

You insist in seeing something that is not there. It is not at this time illegal for a newspaper in the US to publish documents that are stolen. That is what I am trying to tell you. The content of the documents have nothing to do with the issue. It is a freedom of the press issue. In America newspapers can publish documents that are stolen or against the national interest or anything else. The law is not the same as in England. It has nothing to do with the publics right to know, that is a given and is the basis of the Freedom of Speech laws. Newspapers in America can publish WikiLeaks. No problem. They do not violate the law as it stands now. It has nothing to do with how the WikiLeaks information was obtained.

Ahh okay and good it is.

Wikileaks just found these documents in their mailbox. They didn't stole them from anyone.

mark45y · December 9, 2010

You miss my point. War crimes or love letters, stolen or not it makes no difference in the States. The newspaper can publish them. Get off your hang up with bashing the US for a minute and read what I am writing. It is not against the law to publish anything in the US whether it is stolen or not. How the newspaper got it is irrelevant. It is not a false analogy. It is a perfect analogy. I unlike you am discussing WikiLeaks and not American war crimes.

I am discussing whistle blowing and you are mistaken when you think its about love letters or that would put lives at risk.

Has release of Wikileaks documents cost lives?

By Katie Connolly

BBC News, Washington 1 December 2010

After the release of an enormous haul of US defence department documents in August, Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell told the Washington Post: "We have yet to see any harm come to anyone in Afghanistan that we can directly tie to exposure in the Wikileaks documents."

But, he added: "There is in all likelihood a lag between exposure of these documents and jeopardy in the field."

After this latest release a Pentagon official, who wished to remain anonymous due to the sensitive nature of the material involved, told the McClatchy newspaper group that even three months later the US military still had no evidence that people had died or been harmed because of information gleaned from Wikileaks documents.

Daniel Ellsberg, the former military analyst who in 1971 released the Pentagon Papers which detailed government lies and cover-ups in the Vietnam War, is sceptical of whether the government really believes that lives are at stake.

He told the BBC's World Today programme that US officials made that same argument every time there was a potentially embarrassing leak.

"The best justification they can find for secrecy is that lives are at stake. Actually, lives are at stake as a result of the silences and lies which a lot of these leaks reveal," he said.

"The same charges were made against the Pentagon Papers and turned out to be quite invalid."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11882092

You insist in seeing something that is not there. It is not at this time illegal for a newspaper in the US to publish documents that are stolen. That is what I am trying to tell you. The content of the documents have nothing to do with the issue. It is a freedom of the press issue. In America newspapers can publish documents that are stolen or against the national interest or anything else. The law is not the same as in England. It has nothing to do with the publics right to know, that is a given and is the basis of the Freedom of Speech laws. Newspapers in America can publish WikiLeaks. No problem. They do not violate the law as it stands now. It has nothing to do with how the WikiLeaks information was obtained.

Ahh okay and good it is.

Wikileaks just found these documents in their mailbox. They didn't stole them from anyone.

It does not make any difference where they got them or from who or how. They can publish them without legal penalty.

Wallaby · December 9, 2010

In any event, Wikileaks didn't steal them. Someone else stole them and gave it to them to publish.

SamritT · December 9, 2010

In any event, Wikileaks didn't steal them. Someone else stole them and gave it to them to publish.

Same same. Just try to tell the court; I did not commit the murder. Someone murder for me.

hammered · December 9, 2010

It does not make any difference where they got them or from who or how. They can publish them without legal penalty.

That does seem to be the precedent in the US to date.

Wallaby · December 9, 2010

It is not same same. You may want read a bit more before making such comments. They did not ask for the documents, they did not ask anyone to steal them. They were stolen and given to them.

Different kettle of fish.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Wallaby

luckizuchinni · December 9, 2010

It is not same same. You may want read a bit more before making such comments. They did not ask for the documents, they did not ask anyone to steal them. They were stolen and given to them.

Different kettle of fish.

Not really. Take insider trading. Someone throws out some insider info, you, the trashman, pick it out of the garbage and act on it. Or your neighbor volunteers to you some insider information at a party. You didn't ask for it, but you act on it. In both cases, you go to jail (these are real cases.)

It doesn't matter if you were instrumental in getting the info or not. The fact was that you acted on it.

mark45y · December 9, 2010

It is not same same. You may want read a bit more before making such comments. They did not ask for the documents, they did not ask anyone to steal them. They were stolen and given to them.

Different kettle of fish.

Not really. Take insider trading. Someone throws out some insider info, you, the trashman, pick it out of the garbage and act on it. Or your neighbor volunteers to you some insider information at a party. You didn't ask for it, but you act on it. In both cases, you go to jail (these are real cases.)

It doesn't matter if you were instrumental in getting the info or not. The fact was that you acted on it.

All well and good but has nothing to do with newspapers or the media. Freedom of the press. You can publish almost anything as long as it is not obscene or things like that. How you got it is not a concern. You could beat it out of someone. You might go to jail for beating him but not for publishing the information. I think it is illegal to hack a computer but not illegal to publish what you get from hacking. I of course could be wrong but that seems to be what I am reading.

JUDAS · December 9, 2010

It's hard to keep up.......

Wikileaks is currently mirrored on 1289 sites (updated 2010-12-08 19:07 GMT)

http://wikileaks.tryptamine.net/mirrors.html

LaoPo

If we move away form all the "debate" on here for a while, there is a clash of philosophies going on. The internet is all about cross broder non-nationalistic freedom of traffic flow while at governmental and trational media level everything remains as "competing" nation states replete with flowing nationalism and "accepted" controls. It was inevitable there would be a clash and this is building as a big one

It is an interesting clash of cultures. It is also a class clash. The ruling classes from the UK and Europe are not represented on Thai Visa. They rarely come to Thailand. Thailand is a cheap flight from Europe, England and Australia, not so with Americans. The ex-pats working in Thailand or offshore are rig pigs not graduates of Oxford or Yale. You get a different level of understanding.

Communism and socialism are bad words in America. Here on Thai Visa they are viable political alternatives. Democracy is a word with little flexibility in America where as in the rest of the world it has many meanings. In America, democracy is assumed to always be the better choice. It is assumed people will die for freedom. Here on Thai Visa most know better.

It would be nice to see people exchanging ideas rather than blasting each other with fixed immovable concepts.

It seems to me, to be a debating society of bigots on both sides. No one is flexible no one ever changes their mind. Both sides are convinced they are always right. No one ever admits they are wrong. If they are proved wrong, they simply walk away and never revisit the post to say, sorry, I was wrong.

I would like to think that Americans got a better understanding of Europeans here, or Iranians or whatever. In Pattaya I had Russian and Iranian friends. After the political rhetoric we found out we had a lot in common.

Has anyone learned anything from these threads about WikiLeaks? Has anyone changed their minds about anything? Has anyone become better informed?

WikiLeaks started out to be an international leaking website. Now, for the past six months at least, it has been almost exclusively American leaks. I think Americans are perhaps correct to think it is an attack (rightly or wrongly) vehicle against American policy.

I would generally agree Marky though, there are thankfully a few whom I wouldn't say are closed to accepting other's views and opinions as valid.

I learnt a long time ago that most people, irrespective of race, nationality or religion tend to have very similar aspirations in life.

Well said.

SergeiY · December 9, 2010

You insist in seeing something that is not there. It is not at this time illegal for a newspaper in the US to publish documents that are stolen. That is what I am trying to tell you. The content of the documents have nothing to do with the issue. It is a freedom of the press issue. In America newspapers can publish documents that are stolen or against the national interest or anything else. The law is not the same as in England. It has nothing to do with the publics right to know, that is a given and is the basis of the Freedom of Speech laws. Newspapers in America can publish WikiLeaks. No problem. They do not violate the law as it stands now. It has nothing to do with how the WikiLeaks information was obtained.

Ahh okay and good it is.

Wikileaks just found these documents in their mailbox. They didn't stole them from anyone.

It does not make any difference where they got them or from who or how. They can publish them without legal penalty.

Yes okay and fine. Now its on you to realise that wikileaks didn't hack into anyones computer nor steal any documents. I think you missed that point so far in your false analogies.

SergeiY · December 9, 2010

It would be nice to see people exchanging ideas rather than blasting each other with fixed immovable concepts.

It seems to me, to be a debating society of bigots on both sides. No one is flexible no one ever changes their mind. Both sides are convinced they are always right. No one ever admits they are wrong. If they are proved wrong, they simply walk away and never revisit the post to say, sorry, I was wrong.

sounds like a thoughtful comment on the style of the debate here and how it could be done better.

And who knows it better than anyone else and the whole rest of the world or whoever:

I would like to think that Americans got a better understanding of Europeans here, or Iranians or whatever.

Ulysses G. · December 9, 2010

It is not against the law to publish anything in the US whether it is stolen or not.

I often agree with mark45, but this is not correct. the Supreme Court ruled that it is not legal to prevent the media from publishing stolen documents, but they can be prosecuted for doing so - after the fact - if the documents violate national security.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Ulysses G.

meom · December 9, 2010

All well and good but has nothing to do with newspapers or the media. Freedom of the press. You can publish almost anything as long as it is not obscene or things like that. How you got it is not a concern. You could beat it out of someone. You might go to jail for beating him but not for publishing the information. I think it is illegal to hack a computer but not illegal to publish what you get from hacking. I of course could be wrong but that seems to be what I am reading.

Makes you wonder how copy right laws feature into this.

JUDAS · December 9, 2010

"The Supreme Court has stated, however, that the question remains open whether the publication of unlawfully obtained information by the media can be punished consistent with the First Amendment. Thus, although unlawful acquisition of information might be subject to criminal prosecution with few First Amendment implications, the publication of that information remains protected. Whether the publication of national security information can be punished likely turns on the value of the information to the public weighed against the likelihood of identifiable harm to the national security, arguably a more difficult case for prosecutors to make." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20025040-503543.html

LaoPo · December 9, 2010

It is not against the law to publish anything in the US whether it is stolen or not.

I often agree with mark45, but this is not correct. the Supreme Court ruled that it is not legal to prevent the media from publishing stolen documents, but they can be prosecuted for doing so - after the fact - if the documents violate national security.

What happend with/to The New York Times after they published the PENTAGON PAPERS?

LaoPo

chuckd · December 9, 2010

Go here if you wish to read a copy of 18 U.S.C. section 793, 794 and 798. I would think any or all of these are under consideration by the Justice Department in the Wikileaks case.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/793

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/794

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/798

_______________________________________________________________

Go here if you wish to learn which Federal crimes may be punishable by the death penalty. Interestingly, Section 794 is on the list.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/federal-laws-providing-death-penalty

mark45y · December 9, 2010

I based my opinion on among others, The United States vs. Craig Neidorf: a debate on electronic publishing, constitutional rights and hacking. And TMZ Published Stolen Court Documents in Mel Gibson Custody Battle. "Documents From the U.S. Espionage Den." Despite the revelations they provided about the activities of American intelligence, and their ready availability, no major newspaper in the United States, including the New York Times, lent credibility to them by publishing a single document from them.

I don't really have strong feelings about it one way or the other.

But anyone can research the above.

I think the Wikileaks is an attack on the American people and as such is a whole different ballgame. Perhaps it is even an anarchist attack on organized government. It is too early to tell.

LaoPo · December 9, 2010

Go here if you wish to read a copy of 18 U.S.C. section 793, 794 and 798. I would think any or all of these are under consideration by the Justice Department in the Wikileaks case.

http://codes.lp.find...ode/18/I/37/793

http://codes.lp.find...ode/18/I/37/794

http://codes.lp.find...ode/18/I/37/798

_______________________________________________________________

Go here if you wish to learn which Federal crimes may be punishable by the death penalty. Interestingly, Section 794 is on the list.

http://www.deathpena...g-death-penalty

How many editors and publishers from the New York Times were executed after publishing the PENTAGON PAPERS; and what about Daniel Ellsberg...?

LaoPo

LaoPo · December 9, 2010

I think the Wikileaks is an attack on the American people and as such is a whole different ballgame. Perhaps it is even an anarchist attack on organized government. It is too early to tell.

I don't think so.

http://213.251.145.96/about.html

If you can't open the link, please PM me and I can send you a few other links which you will, likely, be able to open and I invite you to read a little more about WL.

Kind regards

LaoPo

elcent · December 9, 2010

there's lots of international support for wiki-leaks now, very interesting comments

WASHINGTON – December 7 – The following statement was released today, signed by Daniel Ellsberg, Frank Grevil, Katharine Gun, David MacMichael, Ray McGovern, Craig Murray, Coleen Rowley and Larry Wilkerson; all are associated with Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence.

WikiLeaks has teased the genie of transparency out of a very opaque bottle, and powerful forces in America, who thrive on secrecy, are trying desperately to stuff the genie back in. The people listed below this release would be pleased to shed light on these exciting new developments.

How far down the U.S. has slid can be seen, ironically enough, in a recent commentary in Pravda (that's right, Russia's Pravda): "What WikiLeaks has done is make people understand why so many Americans are politically apathetic … After all, the evils committed by those in power can be suffocating, and the sense of powerlessness that erupts can be paralyzing, especially when … government evildoers almost always get away with their crimes. …"

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