Caught Jamming

[penelope]

wow..talk about shoot the messenger.i am not the lawmaker.i do also agree that the law needs refactoring as it is rather outdated, and i'd like to see this happen, however get fricken real, do you see it happening mate, really..do ya ??...i dont.therefore aside from being a bunch of angry wingers and moaners what are you going to do. i have only read of one practical solution/course of action so far.

[sriracha john]

I completely disagree that any discussion or disagreement with a law or practice is nothing more than a "whine" or a "moan". If that's the case, 92.3% of all posts in TV fit that description. I also completely disagree that change is impossible or not worth pursuing. Perhaps the reason the "messenger is being shot" is because he's put his own spin on the message.

As for action, perhaps begin with The International Labor Organization (which Thailand is a member).

Several NGO's have proffered these, among others, guidelines:

The Human Rights at Issue

The human right to work and receive wages that contribute to an adequate standard of living.

The human right to freedom from discrimination based on race, sex, or any other status, in all aspects of work, including in hiring and promotion.

[LivinLOS]

wow..talk about shoot the messenger.i am not the lawmaker.i do also agree that the law  needs refactoring as it is rather outdated, and i'd like to see this happen, however get fricken real, do you see it happening mate, really..do ya ??...i dont.therefore aside from being a  bunch of angry wingers and moaners what are you going to do. i have only read of one practical solution/course of action so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow you change your tune fast..

You stated

there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally

So call us lazy and stupid when we point out that the laws simply dont fit or dont fit well to many categories (teleworking, self employment, trading markets for investment, etc) its noit lazyness or stupidity its rules and laws that dont fit the modern world.

How does the retired person ensure his 800k per year and not trade his stock ?? How is gambling not any business investment ??

The current definition of work covers everything you do from cooking breakfast to driving for the newspaper to following the markets, to cleaning your house, to walking the dog, etc.. If that doesnt seem like a joke and a 'dumb law' to you then I dont know what is..

Is it lazyness and stupidity to clean my house ??

[penelope]

wow..talk about shoot the messenger.i am not the lawmaker.i do also agree that the law  needs refactoring as it is rather outdated, and i'd like to see this happen, however get fricken real, do you see it happening mate, really..do ya ??...i dont.therefore aside from being a  bunch of angry wingers and moaners what are you going to do. i have only read of one practical solution/course of action so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow you change your tune fast..

You stated

there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally

So call us lazy and stupid when we point out that the laws simply dont fit or dont fit well to many categories (teleworking, self employment, trading markets for investment, etc) its noit lazyness or stupidity its rules and laws that dont fit the modern world.

How does the retired person ensure his 800k per year and not trade his stock ?? How is gambling not any business investment ??

The current definition of work covers everything you do from cooking breakfast to driving for the newspaper to following the markets, to cleaning your house, to walking the dog, etc.. If that doesnt seem like a joke and a 'dumb law' to you then I dont know what is..

Is it lazyness and stupidity to clean my house ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this sparring is pointless.

i hope you can all find solutions to your problems.

later.

[Sunny Valentine]

Still waiting for Penelope to guide us to the Avenues of legality s(?)he mentioned before.....

Maybe s(?)he meant dark and dangerous back alleys?

Sunny

[lampard10]

[

this sparring is pointless.

i hope you can all find solutions to your problems.

later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This sparring certainly isn't pointless. Why should getting a wide range of views, from the sublime, through ridiculous and ultimately ending up with sensible suggestions and comments, be deemed as pointless. Sorry, I thought that this was what this Forum is all about. It would be pointless if you posted a topic and the next 20 answers were all YES.

[davethailand]

I have'nt read through the whole thread to be honest but i think the use of these words "regularly jamming" Sums it up for me.

Your not going to get taken away for playing occasionally, he must of been doing it maybe everynight for a while (i might be wrong ), someone's who's jealous or just an ###### has grassed him up.

I have customers jamming all of the time and sometimes i've had to ask people to give it a break for a few days because it looks too regular.

Edited August 21, 2005 by davethailand

[phastmike]

I have customers jamming all of the time and sometimes i've had to ask people to give it a break for a few days because it looks too regular.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nonetheless it’s a shame things like this must happen. One should be able to enjoy and if no money is involved so why is it a problem!?

[Nam Kao]

>>>>I know of a case, around seven or eight years ago, when a guy was apprehended while changing a light bulb in a bar. This helpful action was construed as WORK. If you take the law to it's word, then helping an old lady across the street is work as well. No Penelope, you've got it all wrong there

Guys this is a great thread, keep examples like this coming, I keep showing

them to my wife/inlaws etc.

I'll never have to do any housework/yardwork or ANY WORK ever AGAIN!!

Beautiful!!

Its already worked, see examples.

Wife: Can you help me clean the house ?

Me: Sorry Darling, not without a work permit.

Wife: Oh i forgot (Me LOL!)

-----------------------

Me: Honey can you get me a beer?

Wife: No i tired.

Me: You have to! you want me go jail !! Me no have work permit.

Wife: OK,, mumbles "boy Thailand have stupid law" as she walks to fridge

----------------------------------

Brother in law: You got 200 baht for beer Chang?

Me: I got it but i dont have work permit. I need work permit to open wallet.

Your country make this rule for falang

Brother in law wanders away confused...

Edited August 21, 2005 by Nam Kao

[khall64au]

>>>>I know of a case, around seven or eight years ago, when a guy was apprehended while changing a light bulb in a bar. This helpful action was construed as WORK. If you take the law to it's word, then helping an old lady across the street is work as well. No Penelope, you've got it all wrong there

  Guys this is a great thread, keep examples like this coming, I keep showing

them to my wife/inlaws etc.

I'll never have to do any housework/yardwork or ANY WORK ever AGAIN!!

Beautiful!!    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really, REALLY like that idea don't you....?

[Rumpole]

unfortunately the law is the law.the terms of it are available for all read, so there is no excuse, other than laziness and stupidity, for breaking it.there are avenues for working/performing/volunterring etc.. legally and again there is no excuse for not pursing the correct avenues, other than laziness and stupidity.it is an unfortunately anal situation but i dont think moaning about it will do a goddam thing.you can address the law or attempt to change it to your benefit, the latter option probably being an exercise in futility, so educating yourself on how to conduct ones activities lawfully is probaly the best SOLUTION to the winge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is all very well, but what about Thai employers, including Thai GOVERNMENT organizations, which not only brazenly flout immigration/labour law, but also actively prevent foreign workers from complying with it? Even if the foreigner wishes to ensure that everything is done legally, the system is so convoluted that many Thai employers cannot be ar*ed to jump through all the required hoops and they will simply lie and/or procrastinate.

I have another SOLUTION. Move somewhere else.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Rumpole

[Rumpole]

2 years ago Steven Seagull was having a holiday here and was Jamming with Add Karabow 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I recall that Leonardi Di Caprio said that the Thais made him feel "about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit".

[jayenram]

Your not going to get taken away for playing occasionally, he must of been doing it maybe everynight for a while (i might be wrong ), someone's who's jealous or just an ###### has grassed him up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right Dave. He has been doing it for some time. Probably a few months.

[lampard10]

2 years ago Steven Seagull was having a holiday here and was Jamming with Add Karabow 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I recall that Leonardi Di Caprio said that the Thais made him feel "about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Leonardo Di Caprio IS a fart in a spacesuit

[Mr. Farang]

Back on topic,

My experience in the LOS guides me to advise that doing anything "visible" as a foreigner in bars, pubs, hotels, or other open retail establishments requires a work permit. I am a hobbiest guitar player (not a very good one) and like to sing classic rock and would not, personally, consider "jamming" on a regular basis without a work permit, or a note from the authorities that stated they agreed that I could jam and that any tips or benefits that I receive would be donated to one of the local temples or Thai charities, like an orphanage - which might be difficult for non-Thai speakers to pull off.

Thailand is not so complex and it is understandable that the government would not want foreigners "jamming" (consistently, not one time fun events) in the Kingdom. After all, it is highly likely that the "jammer" would receive some benefits (tips under the table, free drinks, free stay in the guest house, or other benefit from the work) and this is not permissable without a permit.

On the other hand, if you are a foreigner and you come to the Kingdom to buy handicrafts and wood carvings from Thai Nationals with money from abroad and plan to export - the government will not pressure you for a work permit - even though you are, based on the legal definition of work in the Kingdom "working"..... because the intent of the Thai law is not to stop foreign money from coming into Thailand - it is to insure that foreigners who receive income based on work in Thailand are registered so they can be taxed, and so they do not take jobs away (without cause or permission) from Thais, etc.

Thailand, like most countries, likes to collect taxes and foreigners are less likely to get away with avoiding taxes from income generated in Thailand than our friends of Thai nationality - because we are so visible in the Kingdom.

As someone else implied (I think), much of this has to do with how you present your self and how you use money (make merit, give money to others, etc.) - in Thai there is a phrase "chai ngun gang" (sorry for my bad romantization of the Thai language), which translates to "Use Money Well" and if you are visible, you must "chai ngun gang" to avoid trouble. This means tipping the "Yaam" (the watchmen who parks cars at the club) 10 or 20 baht, or bring them a hot bowl of noodles on a rainy night - all of this corresponds to the Thai concept of "making merit" or "doing good" - and my experience in the LOS is that if you "tam boon" often and "chai ngun gang" and do it appropriate to the Thai customs, you can avoid problems like the one thematic in this thread.

The paragraph above is one of the "secrets" of enjoying Thailand without problems - making merit and using money in an excellent and honorable manner - which is deeply rooted in Thai tradition based on Buddhist culture (or perhaps I should type Thai culture based on Buddhist tradition - the concept holds independent of semantics).

I'll stop here before writing a long thread on how "making merit" and other foundations to Thai culture create everyones personal situation (kamma) in the Kingdom and how that personal situation (kamma) effects their daily lives in the LOS. - and in turn creates stress and hassle free situations in the Kingdom.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[meelousee]

Well folks after all is said and done more is said than done, I ask my freindly BIB and he says the guy was being paid.

So it is simple if they prove this, he broke the law.

We all should know what happens next.

[drummer]

What about the guy changing the lightbulb in the bar? Was the bar hiring a farang electrician / handyman?

How many teachers are working illegally because it is just too much trouble for their organization to get a work permit?

Saying that he broke the law, d deserves punishment is all well and good. Technically speaking, he did. But then, as I said before, technically speaking if you drive your own car you are illegal, too.

Comlpying with the spirit vs. the letter of the law may be an explanation, but hardy a justification. Why not make the letter match the spirit? The spirit of the law, in re: musicians was never aimed at Farang, anyway, but at Phillipinos.

The letter vs. spirit argument is saying essentially that Thai law is written to be flexible in its interpretation, so that Thailand can interpret it any way they see the most benefit. This doesn't really jive with the folks are saying "He did the crime so he should do the time" It just doesn't follow.

[phastmike]

On the other hand, if you are a foreigner and you come to the Kingdom to buy handicrafts and wood carvings from Thai Nationals with money from abroad and plan to export - the government will not pressure you for a work permit - even though you are, based on the legal definition of work in the Kingdom "working"..... because the intent of the Thai law is not to stop foreign money from coming into Thailand - it is to insure that foreigners who receive income based on work in Thailand are registered so they can be taxed, and so they do not take jobs away (without cause or permission) from Thais, etc.

Thailand, like most countries, likes to collect taxes and foreigners are less likely to get away with avoiding taxes from income generated in Thailand than our friends of Thai nationality - because we are so visible in the Kingdom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The funny part is that the law is more likely to avoid foreigners to work than to collect taxes from them and even funnier is that most thais don't even pay taxes due to their low wages... Thailand is a joke.

[sriracha john]

In trying to rectify antiquated and restrictive labour laws for foreigners in Thailand, one might look to the solution the Thais themselves used when placed in a similiar situation of working outside their own country. It is a bit drastic to be sure and I wouldn't condone violence, but in the end... they DID get what they wanted and change WAS effected:

Hundreds and hundreds of Thai workers torched a building and clashed with riot police in southern Taiwan during a protest over "unreasonable" rules.

Some 300 workers living at the site vandalized vending machines and the site office. They also set fire to the dining room.

They used slingshots to attack police and firefighters.

The rioters "threw stones at us, trying to stop us from putting out the fire," an unnamed firefighter told a television station.

Some of the workers attacked their Taiwanese foremen, injuring them.

The protesters dispersed around noon yesterday after the employers agreed to their 12-point demand, including a review of what they called ``unfair'' rules.

[Indo-Siam]

Let's see - getting back to the original post -

Thai "men in suits" come to a beer garden bar one evening, and collect up a farang who was playing the saxaphone at a bar where he regularly jammed like this.

Well, I've been living in Bangkok for almost six years now, and nothing in that description sounds like someone being picked up for playing the saxophone illegally.

My first thoughts:

1) The musician "knocked up" the daughter of some Kamnan or Cabinet Minister or Member of Paliament, and his prospective "father in law" had him forcefully invited to a faimly meeting to discuss the matter.

2) A drug-trafficking gang is being rounded up by Crime Suppression Division police, and - and an earlier arrestee told the police (under interrogation) where they might find this member of the gang - at his regular jamming joint.

3) Thai national counter-intelligence agents were rounding up spies, and this guy was one of their targets.

4) This guy had gambling debts - or some other big debts - and his "banker" send out some of the boys to round him up.

The point is: plain clothes guys in suits, picking up a guy in the evening, and basically coming to where they knew they could find him - this is NOT the profile of how farangs get picked up for working illegally.

First - it is generally not true that farangs get picked up for labor violations. This is simply because Labor Ministry effectively has no enforcement arm - at least none that works at night, to routinely round up farangs. They do have uniformed officers who go after sweatshops and large-scale illegal immigrant labor scenarios.

In almost all cases of which I am aware, farangs supposedly arrested for "working without a work permit" were actually picked up for Immigration violations - meaning they had no valid entry permit, or they were working when they had an entry permit that did not allow work. Contrary to common belief, Immigration officers do not enforce Labor Ministry laws – Thai officials are not so industrious as to go outside their own narrow responsibilities, and perform the work of other Ministries.

Next – When Immigration police do round someone up routinely (as in – according to a planned schedule – going to arrest someone at a known location), they use uniformed police – Immigration Officers ARE police officers – not “men in suits”.

Immigration does use undercover agents for “sting” operations – but not to go collect some guy that they have already identified as a target to pick up.

Nighttime is “gravy train” time for the Thai police “industry”. They have big fish to fry, and much “low-hanging fruit” to pick up. They have better things to do than make a routine collar of a farang blowing a saxophone.

Switching to all the whining (whinging????) about work permits: Everybody without a work permit cries that it is too hard, unfair, etc. It is always “Thai government” or “Thai employers” that are the problem. Wrong. It is easy to get a job with a work permit here – all you have to do is convince a Thai employer that he can – virtually immediately – recover back the workers monthly salary cost, plus a small profit – by hiring the worker. It is that simple. I will hire 100 workers tomorrow – if each can convince me that by hiring them, I will recover in the first month enough additional revenue to pay their salary (including social fund burden), plus earn 1,000 baht profit. If this plays out, I make an extra 100,000 baht per month of profit – and everyone is happy.

The problem is – most whining workers do not have skills that translate into immediate revenue increase – within a Thailand scenario - for the employer. This is not a reflection upon the Thai government, nor upon the Thai employer. It is a reflection on the would-be farang worker. First question: Do you speak, read, and write Thai at a reasonably fluent level? If not, then what are you whining about? I know of virtually no farangs who are fluent in Thai (including reading) who would have difficulty finding employment here.

Still whining about how unfair it all is – and how good and deserving you are of a job? No problem. It is VERY easy to form a Thai Private Co. Ltd., and give yourself the job of Managing Director. My company can get you the company, with VAT and tax registrations completed, and you a work permit in-hand – within six weeks. You need hire no Thais, and you need pay-in no capital- you do not even need to have opened a corporate bank account. It is easy – and quite fair. What is not easy is generating revenue for that company – to pay your salary, the taxes on your salary, and the various other expenses. And to pay for the visa runs and work permit revalidations every 90 days - because you can only stay continuously on a long-term basis if you have four Thai employees and 2,000,000 baht paid-in capital.

Every whiner out there – blaming someone else for how hard it is to get a work permit - you can stop whining – start a company – and employ yourself. Then you can start whining about how tough it is to be an entrepreneur and earn income.

If you believe some of the ads run on this website by some of my company's competitors, you can "start a company for 999 baht", or 2,999 baht - or some other ridiculous fee - boy, with those low "total costs" (NOT) you will have enough left over to go buy a really nice wardrobe of fine suits - for just US $99 - from one of the smiling gents who run tailor shops along lower Sukhumvit.

Thailand wants all foreigners who work to pay personal income taxes – that does not seem so unreasonable. The only thing they do not allow is for foreigners to operate as sole proprietors. SP’s must still handle a lot of paperwork – and since most foreigners cannot read and write Thai, this seems like a reasonable rule. Require foreigners to work for a Thai employer who can properly handle the tax paperwork. Thai employers are free to hire any foreigner who can help them increase their profitability. With a sponsoring employer, work permits are approved almost automatically.

So – I doubt the sax player got picked up for blowing the horn illegally. And I do not see many valid grounds for complaining about Thai rules for employment by foreigners. This is simply a hard place to earn money as a person who does not speak, read and write the local language fluently.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[LoveDaBlues]

This is simply a hard place to earn money as a person who does not speak, read and write the local language fluently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. So for most people (myself included) I say make your money outside of Thailand. If however, you want an extra challenge go for it in Thailand. If you fail no problem.....dust yourself off and try again!

The only way I would remotely consider a business in Thailand would be to set up the GF some day should we become married. Just my 2 pennies.

[jayenram]

Let's see - getting back to the original post -

Thai "men in suits" come to a beer garden bar one evening, and collect up a farang who was playing the saxaphone at a bar where he regularly jammed like this.

Well, I've been living in Bangkok for almost six years now, and nothing in that description sounds like someone being picked up for playing the saxophone illegally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was slightly incorrect with my description "men in suits". I subsequently learnt that they had bomber jackets over their uniforms. It was around 19:00 hours and four officers were involved. I spoke to the jammer in question yesterday. He was taken to the local police station together with the hotel manager. They informed him that they had no problem with a farang 'jamming' occasionally but doing it every night was considered 'work' even though he was definitely not being paid. They advised him that he should have no problem getting a permit and he should not jam again until such was obtained.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Working a little bit must be OK then.

[HarryHacker]

Nice post but I have a question for you.

This is simply a hard place to earn money as a person who does not speak, read and write the local language fluently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taking teachers and those who have set up their own company out of the equation, what would you say the percentage of farangs who are working legally for private companies who offer varying skills do not have the Thai reading, writing and verbal skills you mention?

[sriracha john]

Let's see - getting back to the original post -

Thai "men in suits" come to a beer garden bar one evening, and collect up a farang who was playing the saxaphone at a bar where he regularly jammed like this.

Well, I've been living in Bangkok for almost six years now, and nothing in that description sounds like someone being picked up for playing the saxophone illegally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was slightly incorrect with my description "men in suits". I subsequently learnt that they had bomber jackets over their uniforms. It was around 19:00 hours and four officers were involved. I spoke to the jammer in question yesterday. He was taken to the local police station together with the hotel manager. They informed him that they had no problem with a farang 'jamming' occasionally but doing it every night was considered 'work' even though he was definitely not being paid. They advised him that he should have no problem getting a permit and he should not jam again until such was obtained.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would all seem to invalidate Indo-Siam's assessment.

[Sunny Valentine]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They advised him that he should have no problem getting a permit and he should not jam again until such was obtained.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Someone please enlighten me! What's the legal routine to get a work permit that covers this (or a similar non-paid) job we foreigners consider as a hobby?

Sunny

[Indo-Siam]

I think of all foreigners working for third-party businesses, perhaps 99% of them do not read or write Thai.

Of all other non-laborer jobs in Thailand that are presently NOT occupied by foreigners, I suspect that only a small percentage - probably far less than 1% - would be able to be filled by a foreigner who did not speak Thai.

So - more or less - all jobs outside teaching and entrepreneurship that can be performed by a non-Thai speaking foreigner are already filled.

A newcomer is always welcome to try to displace/unseat an incumbent foreign job-holder - but you have a high standard of evidence to meet, to justify an employer terminating and paying severance pay to a tenured employee.

It seems like I am forever seeing postings on this board from software guys, or consultants, or accountants, or - whatever - complaining that they have great skills and tons of experience back home, but no one seems to want to hire them in Thailand, and it's so un-faaaaaaiiiiirreeeee...... (whiiiiiine.........). The point is- employers hire employees to make profit for the company and its shareholders - not to run a jobs program for the unemployed. Waaay too many westerners who have worked for bloated companies back home have lost touch with the fact that they are only valuable to an employer in terms of helping an employer prosper. What kills them in Thailand - other than the language problem - is the fact that Thai companies operate on VERY short pay-back horizons. I.e. - If I hire you, your presence must generate enough additional incremental income for the company THIS MONTH to pay your salary at end of this month, and give me some kind of profit into the bargain. You are left with mainly the hope of being selected to replace an earlier employee who left via attrition.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Indo-Siam]

Is it just me, or does it sound somewhat unreasonable that four uniformed police officers would be sent to routinely pick up a foreign guy playing saxophone at a hotel beergarden?

They took him and hotel manager back to police station. Four police and two "suspects" - took them back in what? A police van? So - a police truck and four officers are sent out on a "strike mission" to go capture a saxophone player for blowing the horn illegally??

'Gimme a break - this cannot be the full story.

Where in Thailand did this happen?

What I can (perhaps) believe is that the Hotel Manager was being "jacked" for not paying off some provincial police station to overlook his wider use of illegal workers - he didn't listen, so the local police station sent some officers to "rattle his cage" - by grabbing up one "smoking gun" example. Or the sax player split up with his Thai girlfriend, who had her brother on the police force go harrass the guy a bit.

I just can't see a task force of regular Thai policemen from a regular police station having nothing better to do at 7:00 pm than go pick up a guy playing saxophone at a hotel beer garden - and his boss - out of sincere diligence to Thai work permit rules.

But - maybe it's just me. I may be out of touch with the reality of life on the streets here.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[ovenman]

That would all seem to invalidate Indo-Siam's assessment.

Not necessarily. He was basing some of his remarks/analysis on the premise that "men in suits" came to spirit the jammer away, to which jayenram then revised his initial description of these authority figures.

I'm still of the opinion that somebody must have dropped a dime on the jammer. I highly doubt that the immigrations police or whoever were just out on the town, looking for somebody to hassle.

[ovenman]

What I can (perhaps) believe is that the Hotel Manager was being "jacked" for not paying off some provincial police station to overlook his wider use of illegal workers - he didn't listen, so the local police station sent some officers to "rattle his cage" - by grabbing up one "smoking gun" example.  Or the sax player split up with his Thai girlfriend, who had her brother on the police force go harrass the guy a bit.

That makes even more sense than what I just said!