Credit Card Debts

[jts-khorat]

Quite clearly she is living above her means, there is no reason she needs to pay school fees.

Why not just make her repayments for her direct to the companies, but remove her credit cards from her so she can't spend more.

From the posts of the OP:

1) the woman is 35, so the school fees would be for education already received. Nothing frivolous about that, private schools and the universities of Thailand can be very expensive.

2) the credit cards have already been destroyed, so that no additional debt can be created.

........ she has to pay the school fees for her son ..........

from the Ops second post, and I'm going to guess the sons school fees would be enough to repay the loans

I have to say that when I read these posts, I'm pretty sure the woman is running a scam on the white man.

Why ....... because it's always an outstretched hand asking for money, and never a person asking for sensible financial advice.

Even if you would be right, and the school fees would be 'just' for the son: You would advocate to start a meaningful relationship with pulling out your stepson from a good school because government education is "free", even though you clearly have the financial means to pay for those fees??!

Going to school only until they are 12 and then sending them to work for their daily upkeep seems to be your idea of parenting.

I must be mistaken and have misunderstood you, but that is what you wrote!

Getting back to the OP:

Nowhere did he mention, that his girlfriend actually asked for his help, financially or otherwise. As such there is little point in speculating that she might, or her hidden motives.

[sarahsbloke]

Even if you would be right, and the school fees would be 'just' for the son: You would advocate to start a meaningful relationship with pulling out your stepson from a good school because government education is "free", even though you clearly have the financial means to pay for those fees??!

Going to school only until they are 12 and then sending them to work for their daily upkeep seems to be your idea of parenting.

I must be mistaken and have misunderstood you, but that is what you wrote!

What I am saying is that poor people can't send their children to private schools.

Her son shouldn't be in a private school because she can't afford the fees.

This boy is not his stepson, he has made no commitment to paying any of her bills, and from his posts doesn't appear to want to.

Sending children to work after age 12 seems to be the majority of Thais idea of good parenting, who am I to suggest they are wrong?

My step-daughter goes to a state school ...... why should I pay to educate her beyond her social status?

My step-daughter appears to be very bright and is already doing well in a state school with every hope of admission to university without attending a private school.

[Xonax]

Private schools are for those who can afford it!

[Derifo]

They'll keep calling and threatening her, but they can't arrest her, and they can't do anything to her. They'll end up making deals with her to pay half or something.

This is not new. You can pay if you want to, but if you don't, don't be bothered by all those calls.

I get really frustrated about this. (Derifo....I don't mean you, I mean the "culture of debt" in many countries. I'm also not referring to the OP's situation specifically.)

I completely understand how people make mistakes and get into terrible situations involving debt. I also empathize with how stressful massive debt can be. I've been there myself. But I hear too many people saying things like "I don't have to pay my debt - they can't do anything" or "I don't have the money for bills. I will just ignore it" or "Shouldn't my debt be cleared after 10 years?" They scream and yell at debt collectors and companies, as if, how dare they ask me for their money back? I just don't understand that. Loans (including credit cards) are not free money! By not paying back the banks, people with this sense of entitlement could be making it more expensive for the rest of us. The banks have to get the money back somehow, perhaps by giving the rest of us higher interest rates or more fees.

About 5-6 years ago, I had racked up about 1 million baht in debt in my home country. That was awful. I worked like crazy to live cheaply, work extra, and pay off the debt. I gave up things I really wanted, and even things I needed. Maybe I'm just annoyed that I had to make huge sacrifices to pay off my debt, and I don't think it's "fair" that other people can be frivolous, run out of money, borrow more money, then get away with not paying it back. Ok, vent over.

I would also like to politely disagree with the posters who have said that the OP's girlfriend will never learn. I sure did, and I've never accumulated any debt since I paid it all off. I am determined never to end up in that situation again. I believe that I would feel the same way had someone paid off all my debt for me - I will never forget how hopeless I felt. Some people really do learn from their mistakes.

I paid off my wife's debt when we first started off and within six months, the she was in debt again. this time almost triple the previous amount. Her excuse was that her she just couldn't say no to her mother, so I refused to help out with the payment. They just kept calling, and DTAC even call me out of nowhere ( I don't know how they got my phone number ) to pay up 2,300. I warned them not to ever call me again that I wasn't the one that owed them money.

You should see Thais shopping and dining just as if they earn six figures, but majority of them actually spend credit cards. It all comes down to greed. People should learn to live within their means.

[tonititan]

I paid off my wife's debt when we first started off and within six months, the she was in debt again. this time almost triple the previous amount. Her excuse was that her she just couldn't say no to her mother, so I refused to help out with the payment. They just kept calling, and DTAC even call me out of nowhere ( I don't know how they got my phone number ) to pay up 2,300. I warned them not to ever call me again that I wasn't the one that owed them money.

You should see Thais shopping and dining just as if they earn six figures, but majority of them actually spend credit cards. It all comes down to greed. People should learn to live within their means.

Yeah, well I did say some people learn from their mistakes. I think it comes down to what type of person it is.

[wilsonf]

Thank you to all of you that have replied to my original post and offered advice soley on the matter I requested.

The advice I sought was how my Girlfriend could deal with the credit card debt she has given regard to the fact that after her expenses were paid (and which I elaborated on in my second post) she was left with less than 500 Bt.

I indicated quite clearly that I was not going to clear this debt on her behalf, so those who left messages indicating I should or various ways I should discharge the debt for her, were not addressing the advice I asked for in my original post.

Again those who suggested that I should know or find out how this debt was accrued were not assisting me with my original request for advice, as if I have no intention of paying this off, how it was accrued was irrelevant . I know though that credit card bills can mount up very quickly if you don’t make payments, and if as they do in the UK, the card companies make a late or none payment charge, or charge for writing a letter, then charges can mount up very quickly, especially if there are five accounts not being serviced and these charges muliplied by five.

I know from reading other forums that Thai people run up debts very easily, the attitude of ‘I’m going to die one day, so I may as well spend money now’ appears to be very common, also they think that their status is elevated by making loans to others, and buying them gifts, but they soon find these ‘friends’ disappear when the money runs out.

Some have asked regarding my relationship with my girlfriend, how long I have known her, and where we met, etc. etc. Again none of these deal with my original request for advice, which I am seeking on her behalf.

But for those who wish to know, I have known her for about 18 months now, and about half of that time I have spent with her in Thailand. When I first met her, I had already decided that the first time I saw the ‘open hand’, I would end the relationship, it never came, and she has never asked me for one Baht. She actually used to buy me clothes and pay for meals until I realised her financial position and stopped her from doing so. But despite this on occasion she will still do it.

She has never asked me to pay off her debts, in fact originally I had great difficulty in getting any information out of her about it as she was ashamed about it and felt she was losing face. I have said to her from the outset that I am not going to pay off the debt, but would do my very best to help her deal with the problem.

The ‘Live now, pay later’ attitude is not just confined to Thailand, my son’s former wife in the UK would spend on cards, and then be surprised that at the end of the month the cards had to be paid. This was in fact the major factor in them splitting up. Currently I have to check where my grandchildren are before I visit them, as she never pays the rent on any house or flat she lives in and so they are constantly on the move, so as I say the ‘Live now pay later’ mentality is not just a Thai thing.

Some have suggested that she should not be paying school fees for her son, and that these would probably pay off the debt. Well the total annual amount of school fees, which includes, uniform, books if needed, and transport to the school is 25,000 Bt which she pays just over 2,000Bt a month for and I have nothing but admiration for her that she is despite her difficulties, trying to do the best for her son who is only five years old.

So I hope that this answers many of the questions or comments posed by other postings. As I am still looking for advice for her on how to resolve this debt problem she has with the card companies, I would appreciate if future postings, if any, dealt with this request rather than all the other irrelevant matters that have been the subject of some previous posts.

[Xonax]

If you think, that a school fee of 25,000.00 THB per year is not a lot of money, you should try to understand, that this amount would pay off the credit card debt in around 7 years (without interest of course). The card issuers will never care about, that the money is a fair payment for the sons education. I would guess that she could also find a much cheaper home to rent. The credit card issuers will again not care, if you think that the rent for a nice home is worth the money.

When I read your first post, I thought that this had to be a very new relationship. After learning that she was your girlfriend for 18 months and you have spent half of this time together with her in Thailand, I am sorry to say, that I think that you are not serious in your relationship, if you do not help her out, with at least some smaller monthly payments for the school fees and rent, or alternatively help her to reduce her debt.

You are searching for help to make your girlfriends debt just disappear up in the sky, which will only happen in your dreams! You should feel ashamed to seek anyones help, if you are not willing to commit even the smallest financial help yourself! The only way the debt will disappear, is after the debt has been paid, and if she cannot pay it, you are definitely the next in the line! Do not expect to find anyone else that will pay her debt, unless she gets rid of you first!

[cardholder]

So we will never know where the 180,000 Baht was spent, or what there is to show for it.

With the OP unwilling to address the wider issues, I suggest that he directs his very specific question to Citizens Advice.

[andyc2006]

C. Pay them THB 10.00/m...she is at least attempting to service the debt.

While that seems logical, I'd check the local laws on whether it extends the window of time the companies can go after you for the debt, and how long before the bankruptcy clears from your record. If she's going to default, in most places, it's better (for the person defaulting) to do it sooner than later.

If she means anything to you, then clear the debt for her.

one would expect if he actually cares about the lady concerned then he would helping with some small monthly contribution to get the C/C companies off her back,

I guess we all have different perspectives, but the idea of paying her debt and that caring for her is tantamount to paying it, and not paying it shows he doesn't care for her... is just insane to me. 2 parties made a mistake (the lender and the borrower) -- why should he make himself the 3rd party to do so? So that the first 2 parties don't need to face the consequences of their mistake? If he cares for her he's somehow obligated to pay for her mistakes??? Maybe if she breaks any criminal laws he should sit in prison for her too...

[andyc2006]

If I were in that woman's position (and I wouldn't put myself in that position, nor would I date a person who had within a few years of her doing it), under my country's laws (I don't know enough about Thailand's to make this statement), I'd default immediately and accept the legal, financial and personal consequences that came with my mistake. If she did so, the banks would also get what they deserve (the bankers didn't give debt to people who couldn't pay it back -- in mass, in nearly every country on Earth -- by accident -- they even prepared for it in the US by paying to the change the personal bankruptcy laws).

When you sign on for debt, you're given a choice, that's spelled out in the contract and your jurisdiction's laws: "pay back the debt, or ..." There's no moral issue as a debtor choosing the "or ..." route, and in this woman's position, that's what I'd do. The lender has some control over the "...," they could have insisted on collateral, so they have only themselves to blame for their loss, since likely they made a loan too large for her income and included no method in the contract for recovery -- they didn't follow prudent lending standards... I hardly feel for the lender or borrower in this case.

Today we still have the same amount of debt, but it belongs to governments. Normally debt would get destroyed and turn to air. Debt is a mistake between lender and borrower, and both should suffer. But the government is socializing all these losses by transforming them into liabilities for your children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren. What is the effect? The doctor has shown up and relieved the patient's symptoms -- and transformed the tumour into a metastatic tumour. We still have the same disease. We still have too much debt, too many big banks, too much state sponsorship of risk-taking. And now we have six million more Americans who are unemployed -- lot more than that if you count hidden unemployment.

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be"

What they said...

[wilsonf]

If you think, that a school fee of 25,000.00 THB per year is not a lot of money, you should try to understand, that this amount would pay off the credit card debt in around 7 years (without interest of course). The card issuers will never care about, that the money is a fair payment for the sons education. I would guess that she could also find a much cheaper home to rent. The credit card issuers will again not care, if you think that the rent for a nice home is worth the money.

When I read your first post, I thought that this had to be a very new relationship. After learning that she was your girlfriend for 18 months and you have spent half of this time together with her in Thailand, I am sorry to say, that I think that you are not serious in your relationship, if you do not help her out, with at least some smaller monthly payments for the school fees and rent, or alternatively help her to reduce her debt.

You are searching for help to make your girlfriends debt just disappear up in the sky, which will only happen in your dreams! You should feel ashamed to seek anyones help, if you are not willing to commit even the smallest financial help yourself! The only way the debt will disappear, is after the debt has been paid, and if she cannot pay it, you are definitely the next in the line! Do not expect to find anyone else that will pay her debt, unless she gets rid of you first!

I've been a 'Guest' on Thai Visa Forum for more than a year, before joining as I thought it would be somewhere where I could get some constructive advice for someone else, my girlfriend, to help her with a problem that she has created. I would like to thank all those who posted advice in respect of her problem. to those who preferred to comment on other aspects,. I have always considered iit to be prudent, before offering any advice or opinions, that I was FULLY aware of any situation prior to doing so, because opinions given without this knowledge are quite worthless.

To suggest that after what is relatively a short relationship so far of 18 moths I should discharge her debts is a nonesense. In 2007 I met a friend out here who had been in a relationship for two years, she seeme a nice girl, and when he met her she was working in a shopping mall and not a bar. He commuted between Thailand and London, made sure she had money even though she was working, then set her up in a business, last year he discovered that for the previous year or so, each time he returned to the UK she would shack up with a Thai drug dealer. Naturally he lost all he had invested in setting her up in a business, and she seemed such a nice girl and their relationship was a number of years longer than mine.

Perhaps if you were aware of my own circumstances, you might understand why I am extremely cautious about giving any woman, any of my money. In 2002 my wife of just seven years left, she came into the marriage without a penny, she never had to do days work, had around £90 a week spending money, provided with a car, taxed , insured etc. We had two children, which subsequently she told all and sundry she had only had for 'security', I used to take my family (including her daughter) to Disney Florida every two years, She divorced me in 2004, and having brought nothing into the marriage walked out with £250,000,divorce settlement and my two children. Following the divorce she again told all and sundry that 'she had never loved me, and it had only ever been a marriage of convenience' I had to sell all my business interests to fund the divorce payment, and she even tried to get my home of thirty years sold from under me, which she fortunately failed to do.. She has prevented me from seeing my children from the end of September 2002, as this was the only other way she could hurt me.

So with regard to giving money to women, I've been there, bought the 'T' shirt and won't be going there again.

I thought joing as a member I would get some constructive advice, and from those members that gave it , again I thank you, what I didn't expect was so many unrelated comments from so many know all know nothings

[wilsonf]

C. Pay them THB 10.00/m...she is at least attempting to service the debt.

While that seems logical, I'd check the local laws on whether it extends the window of time the companies can go after you for the debt, and how long before the bankruptcy clears from your record. If she's going to default, in most places, it's better (for the person defaulting) to do it sooner than later.

If she means anything to you, then clear the debt for her.

one would expect if he actually cares about the lady concerned then he would helping with some small monthly contribution to get the C/C companies off her back,

I guess we all have different perspectives, but the idea of paying her debt and that caring for her is tantamount to paying it, and not paying it shows he doesn't care for her... is just insane to me. 2 parties made a mistake (the lender and the borrower) -- why should he make himself the 3rd party to do so? So that the first 2 parties don't need to face the consequences of their mistake? If he cares for her he's somehow obligated to pay for her mistakes??? Maybe if she breaks any criminal laws he should sit in prison for her too...

Thank you, a sensible comment and outlook at last

[sarahsbloke]

She has prevented me from seeing my children from the end of September 2002, as this was the only other way she could hurt me.

You have now invited all the self righteous to accuse yo of being some sort of pervert .... as in the UK they know a woman can't do this without just cause.

I am one of those who knows different having also incurred the wrath of a UK wife ....... mine did get the house and all 4 of my children, so I consider you lucky!

[wilsonf]

She has prevented me from seeing my children from the end of September 2002, as this was the only other way she could hurt me.

You have now invited all the self righteous to accuse yo of being some sort of pervert .... as in the UK they know a woman can't do this without just cause.

I am one of those who knows different having also incurred the wrath of a UK wife ....... mine did get the house and all 4 of my children, so I consider you lucky!

Thank you for your post, and you have my deepest sympathy, the majority of these know all know nothing backsides couldn't imagine the pain a loving father goes through on a daily basis knowing that their vindictive ex wife has (and I speak from information given to me by others) mentally abused their children by feeding them a daily dose of poison and lies that has indoctrinated them over the past eight years against me.

I also mentioned my ex wife had a daughter of her own, she has openly bragged to others that she got preganant to spite her parents after a fall out with them, this was when they lived in the USA, and the poor guy who was duped into getting her pregnant, (she stopped taking the pill,) had up to 2002 paid around £30,000 in maintainance, and again up to that time had not even been able to see his child, just as I haven't been able to see my children

Oh I forgot to mention to the person saying about me considering the school fees of 25,000 Bt reasonable. I have recently spoken to two other Thai ladies who have children of a similar age and they are paying 27,000 - 30,000 Bt. A TERM, four terms a year!!!. But as someone once said, you can't put a price on education, and as I'm unable to do anything for my own children I'd gladly pay her sons school fees if our relationship does become permanent (but not married) as he's a lovely lad and I would love to be able to give him a good start in life.

[Khun Jean]

I would pay the school fees and see what the girlfriend is doing with the 2000 baht per month that gets available.

If she pays her creditcard debt with it she will probably fall within your criteria of a woman you can have a relationship with.

If she buys you some nice things like she did before it will probably signal that she really likes you but can't handle money.

She would fall in the category of woman that make up 99% of this world i think. Up to you what you do in that case.

Some people have debt because they help others. If you don't know the reason for the debt, judging someones character with a lack of information is not fair.

I have a sister in law that has a debt of 150K baht. She has that debt because she helped someone who would otherwise be unable to pay a hospital bill. She still pays for that without a change of getting it back. Is she a bad woman who can not handle money or is she just someone with a heart that is too big?

[sarahsbloke]

Oh I forgot to mention to the person saying about me considering the school fees of 25,000 Bt reasonable. I have recently spoken to two other Thai ladies who have children of a similar age and they are paying 27,000 - 30,000 Bt. A TERM, four terms a year!!!. But as someone once said, you can't put a price on education, and as I'm unable to do anything for my own children I'd gladly pay her sons school fees if our relationship does become permanent (but not married) as he's a lovely lad and I would love to be able to give him a good start in life.

I have married my Thai lady, I did pay off a 100kbht loan on the family farm, under the condition the mother put the farm in my wife's name.

My 12YO step daughter goes to state school (which appears reasonably good) where the only costs are uniforms and books, 4000bht this year.

I have promised to pay her University fees at Cm uni on the condition that her grades are good enough, her mother and I are still married.

I do miss my 'former' children, but best to forget about them I think, as you said, by the time the ex has finished poisoning their minds, not much left for me!

[aurelius]

Suggestions:

- start by cutting up the cards

- go to the credit card departments (collections units) of the various banks and tell them that small repayments of principal can be made, but ask them to hold the interest accumulation (they might do this if the loan is old enough)

- pay something, even if only 100bt each month - it shows intention

- eat at home, take the bus, pawn something - there are usually ways to find a little extra cash

- look on the income side - is there some way to get OT or an extra job - selling insurance, selling cosmetics, Amway etc - there are revenue opportunities out there which don't depend on a company salary

- if there is a land asset it could be used as collateral to consolidate the card loans (slim chance).

Good Luck.