In Case Of Death Without Will

[WarpSpeed]

Hi Gents,

I have a question partly inspired by another thread and I need some information as we've not run into this possible scenario before.

We now own our car outright, it is in my wife's name and she is not Thai nor am I.

We just had a health scare recently (fortunately not serious as it turned out)and if something were to happen to her without a Will in place (maybe even if? I don't know) what would be required for me to gain ownership in order to use the car legally and eventually liquidate the car as there would be no way I'd stay here without her..

We're legally married in Thailand so like the States for example does it just automatically revert ownership to me or is there another process that is required to be handled before such a tragic event? God (or whoever) forbid. Can no longer take life for granted, especially here, a few too many wake up calls recently..

Helpful comments appreciated..

[WarpSpeed]

Of course we have it back home as I recall but must admit that I'm vague on that... I'm wondering about that too now that it's paid off..

[WarpSpeed]

Thank you for all the helpful replies ...

[cardholder]

Not an expert but;

Probably depends on whether there is Will or are you relying on the Thai rules of Intestacy.

If there is a Thai Will it should be straight forward - a copy of the death certificate and Will should enable the Land Transport Office to transfer ownership.

If you are relying on a foreign Will it will need to be translated and is just another reason for the authorities to put obstacles in your way.

Intestate ? Interesting - on the one hand you may get away (there presumably being no other assets in the estate) with presenting the death certificate to the LTO - I would not want to rely on that for fear of the 'Statutory Heirs' coming into play.

Make a simple Will and have a translation done.

For further guidance start here:-

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Wills%20and%20Estate%20Planning.pdf

[prakhonchai nick]

As Cardholder said the simple answer is to make a will to cover just your Thai assets.

In the event of your wife dying intestate, any Thai assets (including the car) will be dealt with under Thai intestacy laws. That basically would mean that if your wife had any family members living ( children, parents, brothers/sisters uncles aunts etc) they would automatically inherit a % of the value of the car and other Thai assets, You as the legal spouse prop up the end, and would likely receive no more than 50%

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks,

Even if neither of us are Thai?

[WarpSpeed]

I do remember that back home a co-ownership is most definitely allowed there is a place on the title to sign and register as such..

[prakhonchai nick]

Thanks,

Even if neither of us are Thai?

It is the assets that matter not the beneficiary.

Have just referred your query to my daughter, (a lawyer) and she says it is permissible to have vehicle ownership in joint names. Suggest you pop down together to the land transport office. (If neither of you speak adequate Thai - take a Thai with you)

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks,

Even if neither of us are Thai?

It is the assets that matter not the beneficiary.

Have just referred your query to my daughter, (a lawyer) and she says it is permissible to have vehicle ownership in joint names. Suggest you pop down together to the land transport office. (If neither of you speak adequate Thai - take a Thai with you)

Thanks for that, I suggested my wifie call today too and as she just got home I haven't gotten a report yet. Silly us, it is an afterthought now as we just had it registered last week and could have had it done then ....

Edited December 14, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[SweatiePie]

Not an expert ...........

Obviously not!

The system of wills is similar here to most Western countries except that here instead of obtaining probate, approving a will and the naming of the executor/administrator is done by the local court. You would, therefore, need a copy of the court's approval to have car ownership transferred.

Having a will in a foreign language is not "just another reason for the authorities to put obstacles in your way", as the armchair experts often tell you; all that is needed is a certified translation. Having a will exclusively in Thai, on the other hand, can delay the process considerably if it is shown that the originator could not read sufficient Thai to understand what they were signing and any objections are made.

Intestate? Thai courts invariably accede to your Embassy's directions, so this is unlikely to be the problem it has been made out to be.

Joint Ownership? Possible, but by the time you have obtained and paid for your proof of address letters, changed the registered owner and paid the transfer tax at the DLT, you could have each made a will, prepared by a lawyer, several times over. Pointless, as half the car would still be subject to the provisions of the will on the death of one joint owner.

Keep it simple - make your wills.

[Patronus]

Not an expert ...........

Obviously not!

The system of wills is similar here to most Western countries except that here instead of obtaining probate, approving a will and the naming of the executor/administrator is done by the local court. You would, therefore, need a copy of the court's approval to have car ownership transferred.

Having a will in a foreign language is not "just another reason for the authorities to put obstacles in your way", as the armchair experts often tell you; all that is needed is a certified translation. Having a will exclusively in Thai, on the other hand, can delay the process considerably if it is shown that the originator could not read sufficient Thai to understand what they were signing and any objections are made.

Intestate? Thai courts invariably accede to your Embassy's directions, so this is unlikely to be the problem it has been made out to be.

Joint Ownership? Possible, but by the time you have obtained and paid for your proof of address letters, changed the registered owner and paid the transfer tax at the DLT, you could have each made a will, prepared by a lawyer, several times over. Pointless, as half the car would still be subject to the provisions of the will on the death of one joint owner.

Keep it simple - make your wills.

Obviously, SweatyPie IS an expert.

But does he really think the question of inheritance of a car would involve an emabassy AND the Thai courts?

In practice a few thousand Baht to the Poo Yai Ban and similar under the table at the LTO should get things sorted.

Joint ownership is the way to go if you are not concerned about what happens to the asset after the death of the surviving spouse.

Taking Sweaty's advice about making Wills is OK but you would need to make provision for what happens in the event of you dying first, your wife dying first and then you dying.

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for the helpful tips guys it seems it WAS a sufficiently complicated question.. We're looking into joint ownership as we're not concerned about the property if something should happen to us. We have 2 young boys but they would not be here if both of us were to perish in say, an accident, they would head back to the States via friends there.

If either one precedes the other it would all be premature anyway but this is life so nothing is predictable but by old age we hope to be well settled back home for the kids education, future, etc. I'm just thinking short term and the car is not a great asset anyway being fairly old but would be an asset to one of us in the event. In her case she doesn't drive certainly it would be some additional funding for her to resettle with back home, same for me..

[prakhonchai nick]

The system of wills is similar here to most Western countries except that here instead of obtaining probate, approving a will and the naming of the executor/administrator is done by the local court. You would, therefore, need a copy of the court's approval to have car ownership transferred.

Keep it simple - make your wills.

I will not comment on the bulk of your post, since I too, like Cardholder, am no expert.

However, just recently a house was transferred from a deceased Mother to her 19 year old daughter - no will -via a circuitous route involving a grandparent. There were no executors and no involvement of the local court. All occurred within 1 day and within a week of the Mothers death!

I agree with you fully in that wills should be made.

TIT

[WarpSpeed]

Wifie called DLT this Am and they said we have to jump through all the same hoops we just jumped through only 2 weeks ago but with a few new tricks.

This time along with bringing the car back down for another unnecessary inspection and repaying the same fees we also have to go by and get a confirmation of address letter either from the Embassy or from Immigration if they'll be so kind and present these along with our passports at which point they will grace us with a co-ownership TIT.

I don't know about the rest of you here but I'm beginning to feel like a well trained poodle.......................................

Well maybe not a Poodle but a Rotweiler at least .........

Edited December 15, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[prakhonchai nick]

I have been in Thailand for 24+ years and refuse to be given the run-around by some jumped up clerk. There is usually no rhyme nor reason for their demands, but they are insisted on, because nobody ever considers it necessary to ask why. In fact employees are not permitted to ask WHY of their employers! And a normal Thai person will rarely ask why - just do whatever is asked of them.

There is usually an alternative, and in this case making a will is a far better and likely cheaper alternative.

Don't become a trained poodle (or rottweiler)!

[WarpSpeed]

I agree on the run around part and my wife is finally getting it too, but it's highly dubious as to it being either cheaper or easier to make a Will..

[SweatiePie]

I don't claim to be an "expert" - merely a lawyer and member of the Thai Bar Association (and that's probably not the same bar most here frequent).

Patronus: Yes, I do think that anything to do with foreigners dying and foreigners inheriting in Thailand " would involve an emabassy AND the Thai courts". In practice its a very simple process, similar to probate, and has nothing whatever to do with "the Poo Yai Ban" (although I am sure most would be quite happy to take your money!).

prakhonchai nick: were the mother, daughter or grandparent you referred to farangs? (A rhetorical question)

Warpspeed: I told you so! This is a change of ownership, whether you appreciate that or not. Cost of a will? Around 1,500 to 3,000 baht each at most lawyers, in English with a Thai translation; most will take under an hour for the two of you. How does that compare with "bringing the car back down for another unnecessary inspection and repaying the same fees we also have to go by and get a confirmation of address letter either from the Embassy or from Immigration if they'll be so kind and present these along with our passports"? (Another rhetorical question)

[WarpSpeed]

You may have "told me so" there Sweatie but in the end for our purposes it still serves me better just to be a co-owner on the car. Just because of the idiocy surrounding the process is enough reason for me NOT to trust the end result in the worst case scenario and if I or my wife passes with a co-ownership there is nothing to be determined the car just reverts over to the surviving spouse/owner.. If as you say there is very little difference between here and the west on such matters then this is by the far easiest way to handle it..

If done correctly a Will involves far more then just the ownership of a car and that is no way going to be any less time consuming then this process and certainly more expensive even at those prices and I have plenty of time on my hands to handle the red tape idiocracy...

JFYI Immigration is only minutes from my house and the DLT is only 15 minutes away, it's just the fact that they have such a mindless red tape ridden policy in place for a simple process, that is the offense.. But thanks for the info. anyway for anyone else who may not have my convenience at hand or a different set of circumstances..

Edited December 15, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[SweatiePie]

.... if I or my wife passes with a co-ownership there is nothing to be determined the car just reverts over to the surviving spouse/owner.. If as you say there is very little difference between here and the west on such matters then this is by the far easiest way to handle it.....

I didn't say that - what I said was that there is little difference with the administration of wills. Up to you.

...

Edited December 16, 2010 by SweatiePie

[prakhonchai nick]

I don't claim to be an "expert" - merely a lawyer and member of the Thai Bar Association (and that's probably not the same bar most here frequent).

prakhonchai nick: were the mother, daughter or grandparent you referred to farangs? (A rhetorical question)

They were all Thais

I was assisting with Uk bereavement benefits, and advised that a local lawyer would be required to arrange transfer from the deceased mother using the local court. Amazingly, it was all done without lawyer, court, and within 3 days of the mothers cremation.

I imagine a few palms were greased!

[fredob43]

l wonder if there is such a thing as joint ownership of a motor, husband and wife name in blue book.

Probably no but.......................

Joint ownership can be done Thai/farang but only on a new car.

[transam]

l wonder if there is such a thing as joint ownership of a motor, husband and wife name in blue book.

Probably no but.......................

Joint ownership can be done Thai/farang but only on a new car.

Daft, aint it.

[WarpSpeed]

l wonder if there is such a thing as joint ownership of a motor, husband and wife name in blue book.

Probably no but.......................

Joint ownership can be done Thai/farang but only on a new car.

Well neither of us are Thai and the car is second hand they haven't had any objection on our inquiry......But............. we have yet to show in person too which often changes the rules midstream..

Edited December 16, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[fredob43]

l wonder if there is such a thing as joint ownership of a motor, husband and wife name in blue book.

Probably no but.......................

Joint ownership can be done Thai/farang but only on a new car.

Daft, aint it.

I know but that how it go's. A mate of mine did it twice but he had a reason that I won't go into. I've had two new car's Both in my name. If any one think's that paying out 1.5 mil and putting it in a Thai Peep's name is cleaver up to them. Bad enough having to put the house in Thai name, But you can take out a 30 year rent agreement that cover's that. Even if you peg it. But a will is a must. To give cover for both party's.

[WarpSpeed]

Oh! So you are saying that IF I was married to a Thai it would have to be a new car to be in both our names? But no Thai in the relationship they figure up to us to hammer it out ourselves if something happens and no issues as to whether or not it's new?

[fredob43]

Oh! So you are saying that IF I was married to a Thai it would have to be a new car to be in both our names? But no Thai in the relationship they figure up to us to hammer it out ourselves if something happens and no issues as to whether or not it's new?

Sound's about it. But you dont have to be married to a Thai to register it in both your name's But has to be NEW. Dont know if it can be done if it's H/P though. But dont see why not TIT.

[prakhonchai nick]

If it's HP, then it will be registered in the name of the finance house initially. Once the loan is paid off it is transferred. Presumably then it would be regarded as "secondhand"!

[MoonRiverOasis]

If it's HP, then it will be registered in the name of the finance house initially. Once the loan is paid off it is transferred. Presumably then it would be regarded as "secondhand"!

When you purchase a car on HP, the blue book notes the financer and the financed buyer's details. When you pay out the loan, it's noted that the lien is no longer in effect, and the financed buyer becomes the unencumbered owner - so no actual transfer of ownership, only title.

[prakhonchai nick]

If it's HP, then it will be registered in the name of the finance house initially. Once the loan is paid off it is transferred. Presumably then it would be regarded as "secondhand"!

When you purchase a car on HP, the blue book notes the financer and the financed buyer's details. When you pay out the loan, it's noted that the lien is no longer in effect, and the financed buyer becomes the unencumbered owner - so no actual transfer of ownership, only title.

As you say that may well be the case, but when is a "New Car" not a new car? Finance is usually from 2-7 years. Hardly "new" after that!

[MoonRiverOasis]

If it's HP, then it will be registered in the name of the finance house initially. Once the loan is paid off it is transferred. Presumably then it would be regarded as "secondhand"!

When you purchase a car on HP, the blue book notes the financer and the financed buyer's details. When you pay out the loan, it's noted that the lien is no longer in effect, and the financed buyer becomes the unencumbered owner - so no actual transfer of ownership, only title.

As you say that may well be the case, but when is a "New Car" not a new car? Finance is usually from 2-7 years. Hardly "new" after that!

Not really following your point here, but I'd say as long as it's current shape and in good enough condition that people thinks it's new

For that to last 7 years you'd need to buy a Toyota though LOL, no-one else keeps pumping out old tech as long as they do