Salary Requirements At A Well Known University Outside Of Bangkok

[HappyInCM]

I have been in email contact with this university and they're trying to feel me out and have asked directly what my salary requirements are.

I heard of a political science phd getting as little as 42,000 there a few years ago, but have also heard of university faculty making 60K+ by teaching 2 classes + their base. Also, computer science in the west is usually paid better than some other disciplines because of the demand from the public sector.

Anyone have any numbers for salaries? Or a good strategy for answering without answering? At 60K, it's already pretty low when you compare it to what high school teachers at international schools are making.

Although I haven't taught since doing my phd, I have worked at some of the silicon valley giants so my experience is relevant.

[richard10365]

I think salaries depend on a few things.

1. The university where you want to work
   
2. The position you are applying for
   
3. Your academic qualifications
   
4. The location of the school
   
5. Your teaching experience
   
6. Ethnic background
   

You might get a lot more to teach at Chulalongkorn that you would at a lessor known university in Bangkok or upcountry in schools such as Chiang Mai University.

Thailand seems to be pushing for more research being done at universities in the country. If you can show a track record of good quality research you might be able to ask for more money.

Instructors in international programs in Thailand make less than instructors in other countries. However, that might change in the future as it is rumored that and existing law requiring all schools universities to have a certain percentage of PhD lectures by around 2015. If this happens there will be a shortage of lectures and basic supply and demand rules say salaries should increase. But that really doesn't help you now.

You did mention about international high schools. If they are teaching at a school that can afford to pay them a high salary then they are probably more qualified with more teaching experience than most university instructors. Many have some kind of qualification that enables to teach in the country where they come from.

University instructors are only required at this point to possess a masters degree and not much more. There are many university instructors who teach at the university because they are not qualified to teach in the international schools.

As I mentioned before, universities are pushing research more in their universities. This will help Thailand with their world rankings. I think this will help you the most when negotiating your salary.

[paully]

At 60K, it's already pretty low when you compare it to what high school teachers at international schools are making.[/Quote]

Don't compare yourself to what top international schools in Thailand pay their teachers. 60K baht - if you get this, or a bit more - isn't a bad salary for outside Bangkok. You won't exactly have much stress or many teaching hours at a university.

The exact salary also depends on which programmes you are teaching: undergraduate, masters' or PhD and how much 'outside' work, work outside the usual teaching load, is on offer. Ask them directly about this.

[HappyInCM]

At 60K, it's already pretty low when you compare it to what high school teachers at international schools are making.[/Quote]

Don't compare yourself to what top international schools in Thailand pay their teachers. 60K baht - if you get this, or a bit more - isn't a bad salary for outside Bangkok. You won't exactly have much stress or many teaching hours at a university.

The exact salary also depends on which programmes you are teaching: undergraduate, masters' or PhD and how much 'outside' work, work outside the usual teaching load, is on offer. Ask them directly about this.

Fair enough, BUT, at 100K/month, that $36K US, probably about 60% of what they might get in the US ($60K/year?). While at 60K/month, that $24K US, about 25% of what a computer science professor would get in the US. Admittedly, you may not have to work as hard but you probably still have to work a decent week - especially since publishing papers will be more work without (good) graduate students to do most of the work

But, the question is also about what I should propose to them? Should I just say 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 or 100K or just say (which is true) that I'm applying at other universities, so please offer me something so I can compare.

I probably won't be very happy with 42K as that's about what a good English teacher can make with a BS and a TEFL and 2-3 years experience. And since I've invested about 20 years in my specialty, that seems a bit off to me? Although there are of course other benefits to teaching at a university presumably - more time off, connections, less work??

Any recommendations on how to get a number out of them?

[beano2274]

I work in a Uni as well, Master degree teachers get around 35-40K.

Government teachers at Universities start at 24 plus 8 for housing, and that is being generous.

[HappyInCM]

I think salaries depend on a few things.

1. The university where you want to work
2. The position you are applying for
3. Your academic qualifications
4. The location of the school
5. Your teaching experience
6. Ethnic background

You might get a lot more to teach at Chulalongkorn that you would at a lessor known university in Bangkok or upcountry in schools such as Chiang Mai University.

Thailand seems to be pushing for more research being done at universities in the country. If you can show a track record of good quality research you might be able to ask for more money.

Instructors in international programs in Thailand make less than instructors in other countries. However, that might change in the future as it is rumored that and existing law requiring all schools universities to have a certain percentage of PhD lectures by around 2015. If this happens there will be a shortage of lectures and basic supply and demand rules say salaries should increase. But that really doesn't help you now.

You did mention about international high schools. If they are teaching at a school that can afford to pay them a high salary then they are probably more qualified with more teaching experience than most university instructors. Many have some kind of qualification that enables to teach in the country where they come from.

University instructors are only required at this point to possess a masters degree and not much more. There are many university instructors who teach at the university because they are not qualified to teach in the international schools.

As I mentioned before, universities are pushing research more in their universities. This will help Thailand with their world rankings. I think this will help you the most when negotiating your salary.

Excellent. Thanks and that should be encouraging for the future?

More Phds could just mean they start graduating more of their own and hiring them? So, just for appearances sake, no? I mean unless you up the quality of the professors first, making more phds will only lower the standard, won't it LOL. But, I assume you mean there will still be some quality controls

Paying well qualified Phds at your universities half what you pay well qualified high school teachers at international schools shows me, however, that they are not investing any money in their universities right now But still 5 years isn't so far away.

So, what do you think is the salary range for a phd at a university in Thailand? I mean I was pretty surprised by a friend of a friend getting 42K with a phd and 10 years teaching experience at the university level. He, of course, left after 1 year.

Edited December 15, 2010 by eljefe2

[HappyInCM]

I work in a Uni as well, Master degree teachers get around 35-40K.

Government teachers at Universities start at 24 plus 8 for housing, and that is being generous.

excellent. thanks for that data point. Is 24 + 8 got housing for Thais you mean? And do you mean 35-40K + a housing allowance?

Does it matter what a Uni is in Bangkok or the sticks paywise?

[paully]

[Does it matter what a Uni is in Bangkok or the sticks paywise?

Yes, government universities in Thailand tend to pay less than private universities, although the 'international' programmes (those taught in English)on offer at both government and private universities pay their lecturers more than for standard programmes taught in Thai. Salaries at government universities, including Bangkok, are fixed for standard programmes - but you won't be teaching on these (I assume you're not teaching in Thai).

You can certainly ask for 70K or 80K but don't assume that they will automatically give it to you whatever you've invested in your specialty. I've already suggested that you ask the uni which programmes you will be teaching - PhD programmes are rather better paid than undergraduate ones - and what outside teaching you will be doing, you could easily get 2,000 baht per hour for this. It all goes towards the overall salary.

[Phatcharanan]

Fair enough, BUT, at 100K/month, that $36K US, probably about 60% of what they might get in the US ($60K/year?). While at 60K/month, that $24K US, about 25% of what a computer science professor would get in the US.

You are making direct salary comparisons between countries that have different costs of living.

Not really a good indicator.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Phatcharanan

[richard10365]

I think salaries depend on a few things.

1. The university where you want to work
2. The position you are applying for
3. Your academic qualifications
4. The location of the school
5. Your teaching experience
6. Ethnic background

You might get a lot more to teach at Chulalongkorn that you would at a lessor known university in Bangkok or upcountry in schools such as Chiang Mai University.

Thailand seems to be pushing for more research being done at universities in the country. If you can show a track record of good quality research you might be able to ask for more money.

Instructors in international programs in Thailand make less than instructors in other countries. However, that might change in the future as it is rumored that and existing law requiring all schools universities to have a certain percentage of PhD lectures by around 2015. If this happens there will be a shortage of lectures and basic supply and demand rules say salaries should increase. But that really doesn't help you now.

You did mention about international high schools. If they are teaching at a school that can afford to pay them a high salary then they are probably more qualified with more teaching experience than most university instructors. Many have some kind of qualification that enables to teach in the country where they come from.

University instructors are only required at this point to possess a masters degree and not much more. There are many university instructors who teach at the university because they are not qualified to teach in the international schools.

As I mentioned before, universities are pushing research more in their universities. This will help Thailand with their world rankings. I think this will help you the most when negotiating your salary.

Excellent. Thanks and that should be encouraging for the future?

More Phds could just mean they start graduating more of their own and hiring them? So, just for appearances sake, no? I mean unless you up the quality of the professors first, making more phds will only lower the standard, won't it LOL. But, I assume you mean there will still be some quality controls

Paying well qualified Phds at your universities half what you pay well qualified high school teachers at international schools shows me, however, that they are not investing any money in their universities right now But still 5 years isn't so far away.

So, what do you think is the salary range for a phd at a university in Thailand? I mean I was pretty surprised by a friend of a friend getting 42K with a phd and 10 years teaching experience at the university level. He, of course, left after 1 year.

About graduating more of their own... what I can see happening where I am is lecturers who have been here for 3 or more years can request to go to school to get a PhD and have the university pay the bill. For every one year it takes to get a PhD, the teacher owes the university anywhere from 3 to 5 years. So if it takes a lecturer 3 years to get a degree, they are looking at a 9 to 15 years commitment to the university. Some Thai lecturers see this as the only way for them to progress professionally on the low salaries they make.

This works fine for the Thai side of the university, but it makes it difficult for the international programs being taught at the university to recruit and retain high quality instructors. Many foreign instructors with a PhD might not want to commit 10 to 15 years to the same job that pays a relatively low salary. Also, if they wanted to leave after they get their PhD, how could Thailand stop them?

The only solution I see to this is paying the foreign arjans a higher wage than what they are paying now. Toss in some extra benefits such as free visas, trips to their home country, housing, medical and dental insureance, etc. This might attract higher quality instructors to teach in the international programs in Thailand. However, I think the equilibrium point for this particular industry will most likely happen well after deadlines to implement this program have come and gone.

Quality is a very important issue in Thailand. It's importance goes up when you start looking at international programs. International students not receiving quality education from poor quality teachers are quick to criticize and not shy about being vocal. One international program in Thailand has already received international attention for their students expressing their dissatisfaction at the quality of their education. Their complaints are issues we have dealt with and in some cases are still dealing with at our university.

You compare western salaries to Thai salaries from time to time and I think you should factor in the cost of living here in Thailand as well. While it is true salaries are higher in the west, so to is the cost to live there. There are pros and cons to living in the west as well as living in Thailand. Each person who lives here has to figure out for themselves what they are willing to give up to be here.

Thailand is hemorrhaging students abroad because of higher quality educational opportunities. From a business standpoint, fix the quality problem, and much of the money being spent to study abroad would probably stay in Thailand. I wonder if anyone has ever researched how much money this would add to the Thai economy rather than give it to another country. On top of that, if students stay in Thailand because of high quality universities, imagine how many more students will come here from abroad to study.

One person's problem is another persons's opportunity.

[HappyInCM]

Fair enough, BUT, at 100K/month, that $36K US, probably about 60% of what they might get in the US ($60K/year?). While at 60K/month, that $24K US, about 25% of what a computer science professor would get in the US.

You are making direct salary comparisons between countries that have different costs of living.

Not really a good indicator.

I'm comparing the salaries of professors and high school teachers actually. HST get about 60% of the salary they get in the US and professors get about 25% in Thailand. The point is that international schools probably pay about the same as the US adjusted by cost of living (including the ability to save the same amount of money), whereas universities pay way less.

BTW, 24K/year in thailand is no where near the same as 100K/year in the US. The latter allows a standard of living and saving that is impossible on 60K baht/month in Thailand. It may be that 6K/year in thailand and 24K/year in the US are comparable. but not 25k and 100K.

[harrry]

While it may be true that the cost of living is less here this does not mean that the salaries paid to foreigners are atractive in the long run. It may well be that it is better to work in a University in one's home country and spend periods here with no income but the freedom to persue one's own research interests. This is the way Thailand seems to function with its English teachers but the standard achieved reflects this. It depends on what Thailad wants for its education.

Edited December 16, 2010 by harrry

[thailandbluegrass]

Im my experience Internationals schools here require a "Degree in Education" or they will not even consider you.

When I taught at the uni in Udon Thani they paid 18,000 baht plus 8,000 baht living allowence per month.

I truely believe that your demands of salary is much to high for teaching here in Thailand. You might be better off in Korea etc.

I would probably give my left arm to be earning 60k here right now and I have been here teaching non stop for 10 years but only have a BA in Business Admin.

[HappyInCM]

Im my experience Internationals schools here require a "Degree in Education" or they will not even consider you.

When I taught at the uni in Udon Thani they paid 18,000 baht plus 8,000 baht living allowence per month.

I truely believe that your demands of salary is much to high for teaching here in Thailand. You might be better off in Korea etc.

I would probably give my left arm to be earning 60k here right now and I have been here teaching non stop for 10 years but only have a BA in Business Admin.

This is for a university position teaching computer science with a phd. the phd is the qualifying degree, a TEFL or education degree is not needed.

[paully]

[i'm comparing the salaries of professors and high school teachers actually. HST get about 60% of the salary they get in the US and professors get about 25% in Thailand. The point is that international schools probably pay about the same as the US adjusted by cost of living (including the ability to save the same amount of money), whereas universities pay way less.

But that's the point. Things in Thailand are different. The Thai university won't care what professors are paid in the US, or that top international schools pay their overseas-hired teachers more than Thai professors receive. It's a different market.

[HappyInCM]

[i'm comparing the salaries of professors and high school teachers actually. HST get about 60% of the salary they get in the US and professors get about 25% in Thailand. The point is that international schools probably pay about the same as the US adjusted by cost of living (including the ability to save the same amount of money), whereas universities pay way less.

But that's the point. Things in Thailand are different. The Thai university won't care what professors are paid in the US, or that top international schools pay their overseas-hired teachers more than Thai professors receive. It's a different market.

Fair enough.

Although I'd still rather teach at a university, since it will keep my career alive (if i ever go back to the us) and since it's not all about the money, I would think many people with phds would rather teach at an international school. I wonder if they need a degree in education or is the phd enough - in which case, they're really never going to get any qualified candidates teaching at universities other than those that need the title professor so they don't completely tank their normal career.

[HappyInCM]

I think I'll just send them something along these lines, which is good since it's the truth.

Regarding salary, I do not have a specific number in mind but I have heard of numbers from 42k - 70k/month. I am applying at other universities, but money is not the only thing that I will think about when deciding - and your area is my first choice of places to live in Thailand, to be honest.

[Scott]

One post deleted. Naming and shaming schools is not permitted on the open forum.

[paully]

Regarding salary, I do not have a specific number in mind but I have heard of numbers from 42k - 70k/month.

Personally I wouldn't give such a wide range of potential salary - it tends to invite a offer by response of 42K, being the bottom figure that you might accept. Make it say 55K - 70K and make it clear that this depends on teaching hours, outside teaching hours, programmes taught etc.

Oh, and of course sound enthusiastic about the job, of course

Edited December 16, 2010 by paully

[jjjbkk]

Before anyone says that my numbers are unrealistic, I want to say up front that I am in a high demand field. My experience is probably different from many others who have taught in Thai government universities, but is probably applicable to the OP's computer science field.

I am a PhD holder and currently work for a government university in the Bangkok area. Even within a government university the monthly pay can vary widely depending on the type of contract you are on and your specialty. I guess the pertinent question is whether you are applying for the equivalent of a permanent tenure track position or whether you are being contracted to only teach (i.e. no research or admin expectations). If you are applying for a permanent position, then you will likely be subject to Thai laws governing pay, i.e. 25,000 - 30,000 salary plus 8,000 housing. For this amount you are expected to teach, publish, and do administrative work. HOWEVER, a large portion of my pay (and all the other profs in my department) comes from teaching above the required teaching load. International program bachelor classes, masters classes, and PhD classes at my university have per hour rates ranging from 2,000 to 3,000 baht depending on the program. Many of the profs also teach additional courses at other universities in the evenings for similar rates. This might not be an option for you if the university you are looking at is the only game in town. We also have some additional pay that comes from research grants and other activities. All of the little things can really add up.

If you are looking at a contract teaching position, then you will have more flexibility in asking for a higher salary. I know one instructor who makes in the 40,000 - 50,000 range, but also gets the per hour rate for teaching in the international program. This contract is not purely a teaching contract as this person is also expected to perform many administrative tasks. This type of contract, however, is very unusual at my school. Most foreign instructors (PhD holders) in my department are paid on a per class basis and only get paid twice a semester. The per class contract can range, in my experience, from $5,000 to $8,000 (US dollars, not baht). The upside of these contracts is that you can make A LOT of money by Thai standards by teaching several classes a semester. The downside is that if you plan to go back to the US to find an academic job in the future, the lack of research support can hamper you. This is why I ultimately took the permanent position over the contract position. Keeping my future academic job prospects open was much more important than my current pay situation.

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question. Best of luck.

[richard10365]

I have heard people tell me before that their job is being a researcher for a certain university. I am not sure how that works but Thailand is pushing for more research to be done at their universities so perhaps you can get hired as a researcher.

[Shipwreck]

I would probably give my left arm to be earning 60k here right now and I have been here teaching non stop for 10 years but only have a BA in Business Admin.

Moving to Bangkok will help you out. I've been teaching with a BA in Media Arts for 6 years now and started out making a little over 60k at an international program.

I also know a few non-degreed teachers making 60+ doing extra work after their base pay of 40...

[Phatcharanan]

Gosh. You guys! Comparing salaries from Thailand to what you would make in the States?

Your subject may be specialised and in high demand but get over yourselves........you're in Thailand. Potentially working in Thai universities that I am sure you are aware of.............don't exactly rank anywhere in the world lists.

Now if you were at M.I.T or some other Ivy League then I could understand your 'complaints'. But you ain't. You're talking about second tier uni's. Thats the salary they pay.

I don't have a Phd......never will. Not in the slightest bit interested in it.

However, I am the Head of Primary for a major Brit international school and make 4x the salaries mentioned here, along with the free housing, utilities, childrens education, flights home blah blah blah.

I don't say this to be arrogant........but to point out to you that your quoted salaries for working in world standard second rate uni's are par for the course.

[HappyInCM]

Fair enough. Didn't mean to come across as whinig it's just astonishing to me they don't invest in their universities. And the disparity between a job at an int school and a professor is a stark indicator of that.

Someone with a phd in computer science starts at 100k in the west so they'll never get anyone other than those who are done with their careers in the west and who want to give something back.

Btw MIT is not an ivy leauge school although your point is well taken.

[kpmsprtd]

Your America is much different than mine, eljefe2. The PhD and MA holders I know are lucky if they ever land a tenured position in the $50K to 60K range. Most of them are "freeway flyers", teaching classes at 2 or 3 different schools, with no health or other benefits. In a good year, they might make close to 36K. The ones with endurance hold on like that for 10 or 15 years until they get that tenure track position. Indeed, this reality for Phd's and MA's is the reason so many are teaching in Japan, Korea, Thailand, etc. (Or not teaching at all, but working in some of the Silicon Valley giant companies, as you did.)

100K? Yes, for someone in the right field who lucked into a tenure track position early in his/her career, and who has been doing it for many years. Nearly everyone else will fit into the category described above.

[HappyInCM]

Fair enoughy but that's why I mention it's computer science which aside from law professors (with real world experience) is the highest paid subject.

Also 100k is for industry or academia when I say any phd will start at that in the us. I'm not saying any phd can get a tenure track academic position.

Edited December 21, 2010 by eljefe2

[paulfr]

Btw MIT is not an ivy league school although your point is well taken.

You must be joking.

MIT is on everyone's list of the top 10 schools in the world.

[Oxford, Sorbonne, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, UChicago, CalTech, MIT, Indian Inst Tech]

And that is without limiting the list to tech schools.

The poster obviously meant Ivy League as a synonym for top tier Uni.

Edited January 2, 2011 by paulfr

[HappyInCM]

The poster may have meant that but to me at least clearly believed that MIT is an ivy league school. I was merely trying to correct his misconception. I'm sorry if it came across as putting MIT down although I still can't see that in my language and that's why I said " point taken". Although of course a computer science professor at first and second tier unis in the west will get at least 100k

I'm unsure where his point about making four times as much as a professor makes is going either since high school teachers don't make four times more than even a fourth tier university professor in the west.

I also wasn't aware that Thailand has world class high schools. Are people sending their children to boarding schools here from even the surrounding countries?

Edited January 2, 2011 by eljefe2

[cat5]

Paying well qualified Phds at your universities half what you pay well qualified high school teachers at international schools shows me, however, that they are not investing any money in their universities right now But still 5 years isn't so far away.

So, what do you think is the salary range for a phd at a university in Thailand? I mean I was pretty surprised by a friend of a friend getting 42K with a phd and 10 years teaching experience at the university level. He, of course, left after 1 year.

From my experience as a master's graduate, 42K at a university sounds about what you should expect. Some may offer less - quite a few may offer less - and I wouldn't hold out any hopes the situation will improve in the next 5 or 10 years. For a short time I worked at a well-known private university just outside of Bangkok and the salaries were less than I could earn elsewhere and that's why I did not stay. On the other hand, the facilities were very nice and you had the "prestige" (however worthless) of working in an "international program" (solely Thai students, at that time) in a well-resourced ICT faculty. Did your friend manage to secure a better paid job at a different university or did he simply leave Thailand?

Personally, if I were recruiting staff I wouldn't pay any more for a PhD either, in fact I would give preference to not employing one. Are you applying for a regular teaching job or is there some research involved?

[HappyInCM]

Personally, if I were recruiting staff I wouldn't pay any more for a PhD either, in fact I would give preference to not employing one. Are you applying for a regular teaching job or is there some research involved?

That's interesting, why is that?

Although this university has a graduate program so, of course, a phd would be required and yes, they expect one to do research.

ps Are MS holders able to teach all BS courses in Thailand? I would think it'd be like in the US where they tend to teach only 1st and 2nd year courses.

Edited January 5, 2011 by eljefe2