Hamas leader says it will never recognize Israel

[pkspeaker]

On post #16 of the previous thread Ulyses G. says "The Internet is full of hate-sites using fake quotes to discredit Israel."

Here on Post # 58 he is clearly doing the same thing, posting a bunch of quotes that are most likly fake, or at least most of them are fake, and even if there not fake they contribute nothing to the discussion, again only an attempt to demagogue the arabs and that he gets from a zionist propaganda site, NOT quoted from a legitimate news organization , again I complained about this in that thread..

and when you use a quote like this:

"The Oslo accords were a Trojan Horse; the strategic goal is the liberation of Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea"

- Faysal Al-Husseini, Palestinian Authority Minister for Jerusalem Affairs, in his last interview, 'Al-Arabi' daily newspaper (Egypt), June 24, 2001

well where is the reference from the actual newspaper? instead your getting from a zionist propaghanda site, like te ones you used on the previous thread and as if a bunch of quotes matter, right wing members of netanyahoo's cabnet make a bunch of extreme comments as well, settller organizations that ae represented in the israeli cabnet clearly express that their agenda is to force the Palestinians out of the west bank and into Jordan, and they admit that that is why they are settling in the west bank, to displace the Palestininas.. So? this means netanyahoo can't replace them with more moderate parties and get out of the west bank anyways?

heres another goodone:

"According to the Phased Plan, we will establish a Palestinian state on any part of Palestine that the enemy will retreat from. The Palestinian state will be a stage in our prolonged struggle for the liberation of Palestine on all of its territories."

- Abu Iyad, Arafat' s second-in-command, 1988

?????

I just referenced my information from the israeli newspaper haaretz, prior to that I used Fox News, ynet(jewish news) and from aljaazeera , but he keeps trying to bolster his weak or non-existant arguments with endless """"""quotes from all the 'bad' people

[geriatrickid]

I

Excuse me these are not FACTS, the population of the Gaza strip, which is 1.5 million people in a tiny sliver of land, less than 8kilometers wide and 40km wide, the most densly populated place on Earth, are mostly refugees from the 1948 war, there are no "non-indeginous arabs" in the Gaza strip, they are all Palestinian wheather they are christian, beduins or non-beduin muslim arabs ..

and again this notion that israeli arabs are equal citizens, love the israeli government and are so happy go lucky..

we discussed that this is non-sence on post #43 on the thread a few days ago:

http://www.thaivisa....te/page__st__25

here is an article from haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.c...edouin-1.306645

Displacing the Bedouin

It's hard to understand why Israel is pushing a significant sector of its citizens toward extremism and crime.

Twice last week employees of the Israel Lands Administration, with the help of a large police contingent, demolished the homes of around 300 residents in the unrecognized Bedouin village of Al-Arakib in the Negev. Most of them, citizens of the State of Israel, including many children, were left not only without homes, but humiliated, frustrated and shocked. Both times the police were brutal, and neither time did the state offer an alternative, compensation or assistance, either material or psychological, for the people whose village was demolished and world was destroyed. That's how a country treats its citizens. ....

I knew that someone would raise the Al Akraib situation, but if one goes beoynd the barrage of anti Israeli blog posts and misinformation and instead look at the facts of the case, a totally different sutuation emerges. Let's review then;

1. This is fundamentally an issue of whether a public entity can expropriate land for use as a national park. This type of dispute goes on everywhere in the developed world. Sometimes the state is right and sometimes the state is wrong.

2. The main protagonists are Israelis. On one side, various groups on the left side of the spectrum that wish to use this as a cause celebre primarily because they think they can make a case to stop the national park creation. On the other side are various groups that believe the state can manage land resources as they believe is in the best interests of the nation. Both sides have support from various frothing groups of extremists. Most of the legal support and financing for the group opposing the Israeli para public agency comes from Israelis. It is for all intents and purposes an internal dispute much as people will dispute expropriation of land in the UK, USA and elsewhere.

3. The vilage isn't really a village and the structures were only recently erected. It is a rather dishonest to claim that a village was demolished, since one didn't exist. In fact, the tin structures and thir replacements that were erected were demolished 7 times in the past year.

4. A large problem exists in Israel because the Bedouin have not registered their lands. This goes back to the Ottoman occupation when Bedouins were discriminated against. The Turkish approach to land registration carried over into the British mandate and was inherited by the State of Israel. The problem that exists is that there are people claiming land, that have no way of substaniating their claims. That doesn't mean it isn't their land, but in a world of land laws, it makes it very difficult to assert one's ownership rights. Difficult, but not impossible. There is no doubt that some legitimate landowners have lost their holdings over the years. However, in this case of a barren land that sits alongside a major highway, the land claim isn't the strongest.

5. The curent occupiers of the space showed up in 1998 and claimed the land. At the time they were evicted but then came back.

6. In an attempt to bring a reasonable settlement to the dispute, the Israeli lands agency made an offer that the settlers could rent the land for agricultural purposes for NIS 2 per dunam (0.1 hectare). The offer was rejected. One of the reasons Bedouins do not like to register land is because it creates an obligation to pay tax. Unfortunately, one cannot have it both ways.

7. An eviction notice was issued in 2003, and the occupants of the land filed suit. The court issued a cease and desist from further expansion and development while the case was being heard. However, the occupiers started to erect structures

8. The case was dismissed in 2007.

9. The odd part about this dispute is that the area is considered "barren" and not suitable for living. As such, the state has the right to attempt to rejuvenate the land by planting compatible plant species such as shrubs and trees. It requires several decades to nurse the soil back.

In this case, the dispute is a manifestation of Israeli politics rather than a dispute over Bedouin land rights. The Bedouins are pawns and are being exploited. The people should be condemned are those idiots on each side of the political spectrum that are throwing political rhetoric instead of dealing with a major social problem left over from the Ottoman occupation.

This now brings us to the inaccurate statement;

which is 1.5 million people in a tiny sliver of land, less than 8kilometers wide and 40km wide, the most densly populated place on Earth, are mostly refugees from the 1948 war, there are no "non-indeginous arabs" in the Gaza strip, they are all Palestinian wheather they are christian, beduins or non-beduin muslim arabs ..

On this I say Bullsh*t. The population of the gaza strip during the Egyptian rule was 80,000. Currently, there are 1.4 million registered refugees in the Gaza strip. Approximately, 700,000 refugees went to Gaza because of the 1948 war. The Arab countries told them to go to safety in Gaza as Israel would soon be crushed and they would be able to return. That never happened. Instead, the population grew and was trapped in Gaza because the Arab nations refused the refugees entry. The original inhabitants were Egyptians and Bedouins. Unfortunately for the Bedouins, they did not register their land rigths as this was the way the Ottman Empire worked. As a result, the Bedouins were unable to demonstrate their land rights and lost those rights to the Arab newcomers that simply took the land.

Quite a contrast. The Bedouins lose their lands to Arabs and no one says anything. No Arabs rally to their side, no Arabs fund their struggle. And then to Israel, where the Bedouins get support from Israelis and have access to a court system. There is no argument that the Bedouins have sometimes suffered in Israel. It is wrong and many Israelis say so. And now back to the Arab occupied Gaza strip. What about the Bedouin villages and settlements that were wiped out? Your silence speaks volumes.

As an aside, you demonstrate a complete ignorance of the Bedouin. they do not consider themselves "Arabs" within the framework of Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia etc.. They are Bedouin, the indigeneous people of the Middle East. They are a nation without access to their traditional lands that spanned many countries. It is a nationless nation and a people that was built upon honour and dignity. The Bedouin are the true Arabs, not the garbage that calls itself arab now. Had the Ottoman occupiers not destroyed the Bedouin people, culture and family structure, things would be very different in the Middle East today. Israel most likely would not exist as it does now. It most likely would have been part of a real Arab country made up of Bedouin. The Arabs treat the Bedouin with contempt and discriminate against them. It is therefore a total joke when Arab blogs speak of the Bedouin plight.

Edited December 17, 2010 by geriatrickid

[geriatrickid]

I think what your saying is the historical non-sence.. The Palestinians left because zionist militias were shelling there civilian areas everyday and committing massacres like dier yasin.. 800,000 people do not just get up and leave because "they had been told to by the surrounding Arab countries, so it would be easier to "slaughter the Jews" ..

The only nonsense is your statement. Syria was financing terrorists that attacked from Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan paid the price because of the Syrians. The zionist militias were not shelling anyone. Can you substantiate your claim? Syria was however shelling Israel from Syrian positions in the Golan Heights. That's an undisputed fact easily corroborated. I am unable to find examples of zionist militias shelling any sovereign nation.

Basically, I believe that you have lied. If you are willing to make false statements here, how do you expect to be taken seriously?

[Ulysses G.]

On post #16 of the previous thread Ulyses G. says "The Internet is full of hate-sites using fake quotes to discredit Israel."

Here on Post # 58 he is clearly doing the same thing, posting a bunch of quotes that are most likly fake, or at least most of them are fake, and even if there not fake they contribute nothing to the discussion,

In other words, you have no idea if they are fake, but you are going to claim they are anyway.

I actually researched the quotes that I said were fake. Why don't you do the same before making absurd accusations with no proof what-so-ever?

[Ulysses G.]

The only nonsense is your statement. Syria was financing terrorists that attacked from Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan paid the price because of the Syrians. The zionist militias were not shelling anyone.

These types of unsubstantiated statements seem to be a pattern. Throw out a bunch of made up nonsense and make you do the work of proving that it is not true. Luckily geriatrickid, you are quire adept at doing so.

[Ulysses G.]

they should be willing to simply accept a permanent ceace-fire in exchange for a complete withdraw from the west bank.. rather than focusing on the ideological issue of weather 'israel has a right to exist'

Has Hamas ever honored a cease-fire for more than a short time? Why would they be crazy enough to trust an enemy who will not even acknowledge their right to exist?

[pkspeaker]

A simple google search will bring up narratives of the expulsion of Palestinians in 1947-1948, this one has itself referenced to the books, most of which were published by legitimate western publishers like Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, Sidgwick & Jackson, Faber and Faber

http://www.robincmiller.com/pales2.htm

The accepted historical record , accepted at any legitimate academic institution, accepted by every government in the world, is that Zionist militias expelled 750-800,000 Palestinians when israel was created in 1948 .. This business that they were 'told to leave', if they were told to leave, it was precisely because if they didn't zionist militias would kill them. These refugees became registered by the UN sson after their expultion, today there are million of them,the original inhabitants and their descendants.. if you wanna keep denying this historical fact u can do so for the purpose of this thread, but no one reading it will beleive you..

Also statements like this:

The Bedouin are the true Arabs, not the garbage that calls itself arab now.

expose israel's apologists on this thread for what they are.. Reading Israeli newspapers like Haarets, Arab newspapers, the (us) Herald tribune, aljaazeera I don't see the israeli beduin complaining about anyone but the Israeli government, as are israeli arabs.. your inventing some kind of beduin-real arab vs. fake arab schism that is not part of the current conflict that involves israel and it's indigenous population is hubris..

We can argue historical eveils till the cows come home but how about finding a solution to the situation that exists now? I want to reiterate my position on this conflict, that Israel should:

1. withdraw from the WB, link it up with Gaza, and recognize a Palestinian state there..if they did this and Palestinians launch rockets anyways i'm sure they would bomb the hell out of it and the rocket fire would stop AND the Palestinians would risk being re-invaded if they did that.. But every indication is that the Palestinians would end militancy if the Israelis simply withdraw to the 1967 border, from what I see there is simply no 'security' excuse for israel to stay there as an aphartied state.

-or-

2. Israel should immediately restart negotiations with Abbas based on withdrawal from the west bank along the 1967 border and a territory swap of less than 2% . .

-or-

stop being a 'jewish state' and simply become a bi-national state, with equal rights for all citizens whether they are druze, arab, jewish or what ever you think they are.

Israel's apologists on this thread keep making excuses for it's repressive policies, demagogy against Palestinians and Arab peoples, AND they offer no solution to end the conflict based on democratic principals.

I think what your saying is the historical non-sence.. The Palestinians left because zionist militias were shelling there civilian areas everyday and committing massacres like dier yasin.. 800,000 people do not just get up and leave because "they had been told to by the surrounding Arab countries, so it would be easier to "slaughter the Jews" ..

The only nonsense is your statement. Syria was financing terrorists that attacked from Jordan and Lebanon. Jordan paid the price because of the Syrians. The zionist militias were not shelling anyone. Can you substantiate your claim? Syria was however shelling Israel from Syrian positions in the Golan Heights. That's an undisputed fact easily corroborated. I am unable to find examples of zionist militias shelling any sovereign nation.

Basically, I believe that you have lied. If you are willing to make false statements here, how do you expect to be taken seriously?

[Wallaby]

pkspeaker, tottaly agree with your comments. But of course I'm not allowed to have an opinion so just keep that to yourself.

[Ulysses G.]

The accepted historical record , accepted at any legitimate academic institution, accepted by every government in the world, is that Zionist militias expelled 750-800,000 Palestinians when israel was created in 1948 .. This business that they were 'told to leave', if they were told to leave, it was precisely because if they didn't zionist militias would kill them.

As usual, you mix small bits of truth with blatant distortions and outright fabrications. The words of the Arab leaders are well documented and so is the historical record.

The role of Arab leaders in urging the Arab population to leave is similarly well-documented. Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, declared:

• We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:

• This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re­enter and retake possession of their country.

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948­49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

• Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.

Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al­Janub (August 16, 1948):

• The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.

One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said:

• The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.

Habib Issa said in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951):

• The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

And Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:

• The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.
  http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_why.php

This claim of premeditated dispossession and the consequent creation of the longstanding Palestinian “refugee problem” forms, indeed, the central plank in the bill of particulars pressed by Israel’s alleged victims and their Western supporters. It is a charge that has hardly gone undisputed. As early as the mid-1950’s, the eminent American historian J.C. Hurewitz undertook a systematic refutation, and his findings were abundantly confirmed by later generations of scholars and writers. Even Benny Morris, the most influential of Israel’s revisionist “new historians,” and one who went out of his way to establish the case for Israel’s “original sin,” grudgingly stipulated that there was no “design” to displace the Palestinian Arabs.

The recent declassification of millions of documents from the period of the British Mandate (1920-1948) and Israel’s early days, documents untapped by earlier generations of writers and ignored or distorted by the “new historians,” paint a much more definitive picture of the historical record. They reveal that the claim of dispossession is not only completely unfounded but the inverse of the truth. What follows is based on fresh research into these documents, which contain many facts and data hitherto unreported.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/1948--israel--and-the-palestinians-br--the-true-story-11355

[Ulysses G.]

AIsrael's apologists on this thread keep making excuses ...AND they offer no solution to end the conflict based on democratic principals.

Of course they have. The Arab countries and Palestinian Arabs need to recognize Israel, stop all military actions and agree to peace with the borders of a Palestinian state to be determined by negotiations.

They started every war and they lost every war. If they had a agreed to the initial UN plan the borders would already be determined, but they wanted to fight about it.

[pkspeaker]

More Ulyses quotes that he gets from somewhere, he continues to insist that expultion never took place and does not take a position on how to resolve the conflict, only apologizing for israeli oppression of the Palestinians that are there now, why don't we just forget about the refugees and concentrate on that aspect of the argument.. but since he will never do that and continues on the same issue:

Here's some from Jews for Justice:

http://www.washington-report.org/jews_for_justice/statehood.html

Statehood and Expulsion — 1948

What was the Arab reaction to the announcement of the creation of the state of Israel?

"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state...About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict."

Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies?

"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified."

"Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.

Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists."

Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war."

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949"

Didn't the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?

"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it- or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens.

Arab orders to evacuate non-existent

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Ethnic cleansing- continued

"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

The deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians

"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable."

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

After the fighting was over, why didn't the Palestinians return to their homes?

"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return... [and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli."

Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Is there any justification for this expropriation of land?

"The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage."

Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

How about the negotiations after the 1948-1949 wars?

"[At Lausanne,] Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians were trying to save by negotiations what they had lost in the war--a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel, however... [preferred] tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace that would involve territorial concessions and the repatriation of even a token number of refugees. The refusal to recognize the Palestinians' right to self-determination and statehood proved over the years to be the main source of the turbulence, violence, and bloodshed that came to pass."

Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth Of Israel."

Israel admitted to UN but then reneged on the conditions under which it was admitted

"The [Lausanne] conference officially opened on 27 April 1949. On 12 May the [uN's] Palestine Conciliation ,Committee reaped its only success when it induced the parties to sign a joint protocol on the framework for a comprehensive peace. . Israel for the first time accepted the principle of repatriation [of the Arab refugees] and the internationalization of Jerusalem. . .[but] they did so as a mere exercise in public relations aimed at strengthening Israel's international image...Walter Eytan, the head of the Israeli delegation, [stated]..'My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the U.N. Refusal to sign would...have immediately been reported to the Secretary-General and the various governments.'" Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, "

The Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict, 1947-1951."

Israeli admission to the U.N.- continued

"The Preamble of this resolution of admission included a safeguarding clause as follows: 'Recalling its resolution of 29 November 1947 (on partition) and 11 December 1948 (on reparation and compensation), and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions, the General Assembly...decides to admit Israel into membership in the United Nations.'

"Here, it must be observed, is a condition and an undertaking to implement the resolutions mentioned. There was no question of such implementation being conditioned on the conclusion of peace on Israeli terms as the Israelis later claimed to justify their non-compliance."

Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

What was the fate of the Palestinians who had now become refugees?

"The winter of 1949, the first winter of exile for more than seven hundred fifty thousand Palestinians, was cold and hard...Families huddled in caves, abandoned huts, or makeshift tents...Many of the starving were only miles away from their own vegetable gardens and orchards in occupied Palestine - the new state of Israel...At the end of 1949 the United Nations finally acted. It set up the United Nations Relief and Works Administration (UNRWA) to take over sixty refugee camps from voluntary agencies. It managed to keep people alive, but only barely."

"Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.

[pkspeaker]

Those are the negotiations that have not re-started since 2000, and what about negotiations based on the 1967 borders with less than 2% in land swaps?

since any other formula would be more aphartied, cutting up the WB and having israeli roads and settlements inside the WB, or look like swiss cheese on a map and worse on the ground.

AIsrael's apologists on this thread keep making excuses ...AND they offer no solution to end the conflict based on democratic principals.

Of course they have. The Arab countries and Palestinian Arabs need to recognize Israel, stop all military actions and agree to peace with the borders of a Palestinian state to be determined by negotiations.

They started every war and they lost every war. If they had a agreed to the initial UN plan the borders would already be determined, but they wanted to fight about it.

[cdnvic]

Please keep the Jewish conspiracy stuff out of here. (One post removed)

[Ulysses G.]

More Ulysses quotes that he gets from somewhere, he continues to insist that expultion never took place.

Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

Another fib. I never said that no expulsions took place. It was a war - started by the Arabs - and there were some expulsions, but as the quotes from Arab leaders prove, the Arabs caused most of the refugee problem themselves. However, your blog claims that Jews said , "we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe"'. If that were so, why did 170,000 Arabs stay on their land - as the Jews asked - and became Israeli citizens. Hmmm?

Quoting from very questionable sources is one thing, but making claims that are easily disproved just points out how questionable they really are.

And Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:

• The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.

~ Edited December 17, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[geriatrickid]

Ethnic disputes are messy. No Israeli government denies that there is an issue with the Arab refugees.

However, the Arab governments and its apologists refuse to recognize that the refugee issue includes the hundreds of thousands of Arabs of the jewish faith that were expelled and deported from Arab countries. If one wishes to resolve the refugee issue, what of the assets and land confiscated by the Arab nations? What of the Egyptians given 24-72 hours to leave Egypt? Why were Arabs that had lived in Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq etc forced out? They had no involvement in the wars or withIsrael, but their crime was to be Jewish. What of the ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian jews today? What of the persecution and brutal assaults upon the Middle East Christians? Not a word from anyone.

[Ulysses G.]

. If one wishes to resolve the refugee issue, what of the assets and land confiscated by the Arab nations? What of the Egyptians given 24-72 hours to leave Egypt? Why were Arabs that had lived in Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq etc forced out? They had no involvement in the wars or with Israel, but their crime was to be Jewish. What of the ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian jews today? What of the persecution and brutal assaults upon the Middle East Christians? Not a word from anyone.

Indeed!

[philw]

AIsrael's apologists on this thread keep making excuses ...AND they offer no solution to end the conflict based on democratic principals.

Of course they have. The Arab countries and Palestinian Arabs need to recognize Israel, stop all military actions and agree to peace with the borders of a Palestinian state to be determined by negotiations.

They started every war and they lost every war. If they had a agreed to the initial UN plan the borders would already be determined, but they wanted to fight about it.

I like your first paragraph, maybe Israel could do the same ??

If both sides did it simultaneously, perhaps problem solved.

Could Israel recognize Palestine, stop all military actions, blockades, settlements and agree to peace ?

[pkspeaker]

well once a peace agreement is reached i guess those jews could return (except for iraq where the american invasion and occupation has made the country too dangerous for even iraqi muslims to return to alot of parts),but few would be interested and israel obviously wouldn't want that.. also I was never arguing right of return, only arguing withdrawal .. i was not arguing that millions of Palestinians should be allowed to return to Israel's 1967 boundary's , when Palestinians like Abbas bring it up, it's only to use as a bargaining chip for the westbank... The arab peace initiative calls "for a just solution to the refugee problem" w/o explicitly insisting that right of return be granted.

also there is no ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian Jews, they have the run of the place like every other citizen; you can't compare that to Palestinians in the west bank and gaza who have no freedom of movement. I don't see Syrian Jewish houses in Damascus being demolished, or Jews being evicted from their houses and muslim settlers taking them over.

Ethnic disputes are messy. No Israeli government denies that there is an issue with the Arab refugees.

However, the Arab governments and its apologists refuse to recognize that the refugee issue includes the hundreds of thousands of Arabs of the jewish faith that were expelled and deported from Arab countries. If one wishes to resolve the refugee issue, what of the assets and land confiscated by the Arab nations? What of the Egyptians given 24-72 hours to leave Egypt? Why were Arabs that had lived in Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq etc forced out? They had no involvement in the wars or withIsrael, but their crime was to be Jewish. What of the ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian jews today? What of the persecution and brutal assaults upon the Middle East Christians? Not a word from anyone.

Edited December 17, 2010 by pkspeaker

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has been offering to recognize a Palestinian state and make peace since 1948 and has been turned down over and over again.

The reality as to who offered peace and who rejected it, is a bit different from the Kristof fable or the Kamiya saga, or the mythologies kept alive by the peace camp true believers, here and in Israel. At Camp David, as Chief US negotiator Dennis Ross makes clear in his opus on the peace process, Israel offered 92% of the West Bank, plus land within pre-67 Israel, plus all of Gaza, to share Jerusalem, and to help finance refugee resettlement. At Taba a few months later, the vicious Palestinian terror campaign (the second and far deadlier intifada) induced a sweeter offer from Israel- over 95% of the West Bank, and a larger land exchange. Of course the Palestinians had no intention of taking either offer, but have always been happy to book an Israeli offer, and use it as the basis for the beginning of the next set of negotiations once Palestinians agree to a time out in their 80 plus year campaign of terror against Israel and Zionism.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/03/the_war_against_israel_in_amer.html

[geriatrickid]

well once a peace agreement is reached i guess those jews could return (except for iraq where the american invasion and occupation has made the country too dangerous for even iraqi muslims to return to alot of parts),but few would be interested and israel obviously wouldn't want that.. also I was never arguing right of return, only arguing withdrawal .. i was not arguing that millions of Palestinians should be allowed to return to Israel's 1967 boundary's , when Palestinians like Abbas bring it up, it's only to use as a bargaining chip for the westbank... The arab peace initiative calls "for a just solution to the refugee problem" w/o explicitly insisting that right of return be granted.

also there is no ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian Jews, they have the run of the place like every other citizen; you can't compare that to Palestinians in the west bank and gaza who have no freedom of movement. I don't see Syrian Jewish houses in Damascus being demolished, or Jews being evicted from their houses and muslim settlers taking them over.

Ethnic disputes are messy. No Israeli government denies that there is an issue with the Arab refugees.

However, the Arab governments and its apologists refuse to recognize that the refugee issue includes the hundreds of thousands of Arabs of the jewish faith that were expelled and deported from Arab countries. If one wishes to resolve the refugee issue, what of the assets and land confiscated by the Arab nations? What of the Egyptians given 24-72 hours to leave Egypt? Why were Arabs that had lived in Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq etc forced out? They had no involvement in the wars or withIsrael, but their crime was to be Jewish. What of the ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian jews today? What of the persecution and brutal assaults upon the Middle East Christians? Not a word from anyone.

You are having some fun with this thread aren't you? I have the impression that the thread provides a nice cover for you to circulate misleading and disingenious statements all while pretending to engage in civil discourse. I draw that conclusion because of your statements. Let's review;

1. well once a peace agreement is reached i guess those jews could return (except for iraq where the american invasion and occupation has made the country too dangerous for even iraqi muslims to return to alot of parts),but few would be interested and israel obviously wouldn't want that..

You guess? Guessing is not how treaties and agreements are made. When Egypt and Israel made their peace treaty, there was no guessing. Obligations were defined. You still haven't addressed the forced expulsion of the Arabs of jewish faith. The arab countries will never take back the people they expelled, nor will they pay compensation.

2. also I was never arguing right of return, only arguing withdrawal .. i was not arguing that millions of Palestinians should be allowed to return to Israel's 1967 boundary's , when Palestinians like Abbas bring it up, it's only to use as a bargaining chip for the westbank... The arab peace initiative calls "for a just solution to the refugee problem" w/o explicitly insisting that right of return be granted.

Huh? Where did those millions of refugees come from? How did you come up with the number? If one looks at the UN refugee listing, 100,000 arabs moved to Arab countries prior to the creation of the state of Israel. They really aren't true refugees as they left before modern Israel came into being and it was a voluntary decision, prior to any war. Then there are, if one is generous and takes the UN refugee numbers at face value, approximately 650,000 arabs that either left on their own or were uprooted because of the war. If there are millions of refgees today, it is because they have been popping out 4-10 kids per child bearing woman. Is it Israel's fault that these people do not accept birth control? And then there are the Arabs of jewish faith, almost 1,000,000 of them that were deported, forced out or fled.

I do not doubt that there were hundreds of thousands of non jewish refugees. However, what of the arab-jewish refugees? It would seem that the numbers balance each other off. Why is it you expect the arabs of jewish faith to take the losses but only speak out on behalf of the non jewish arab refugees?

3. also there is no ghettoization of Syrian and Iranian Jews, they have the run of the place like every other citizen; you can't compare that to Palestinians in the west bank and gaza who have no freedom of movement. I don't see Syrian Jewish houses in Damascus being demolished, or Jews being evicted from their houses and muslim settlers taking them over.

This is where you lose all credibility. Why are jews the only Syrians that are forced to carry their religion on their national id cards? What would you say if tomorrow only muslims were obliged to have Muslim written on their driver licenses or id cards in the west? Iranian and Syrian jews do not have freedom of movement are are obliged to live and work is specific areas. To say otherwise is a lie. The Jews of Iran and Syria are denied the freedom to travel. That is a fact that you cannot deny.

Edited December 18, 2010 by geriatrickid

[geriatrickid]

I note that throughout this thread, there is a continued questioning of the legitimacy of Israel. The argument is made that Israel only came into being in 1948 because it was a carve out of the British mandate in 1948.

Ok.

Syria was carved out of the French mandate in April 1946. It was the forced amalgamation several differrent states such as Damscus, Aleppo, the Druze land and the Alawite kingdom. There was no Syria until the French invented the country. And yet, no one questions Syria's right to exist.

How come no one questions the right of existence of Lebanon? It was a distinct part of the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. It only passed to French control at the end of WWI as the Europeans feasted upon the remains of the Ottoman Empire. It was a French mandate until the Germans invaded France. Then, all of a sudden, France said to Lebanon, you can be a country. That was in 1943. How come Lebanon has more legitimacy than Israel?

I note the continued complaining that Israel doesn't let Arabs from Gaza into Israel to work. Without going into the issues related to suicide bombers and terrorists, I have a question. How come Lebanon, which is home to several generations of arabs that call themselves Palestinians refuses to allow these arbas to work in Lebanon? These arabs were born in Lebanon and most have roots that go back to 1948 when they arrived as refugees. How is it that if a refugee lands in Sweden, or Canada they can get free medical care, subsidized housing, free education and work permits, but Lebanon won't allow these arabs to work outside of the refugee camps? The west has pumped billions of dollars into paying for the support of these refugees for the past 60 years and what does the west have to show for that expenditure? These people are not refugees anymore, particularly since they are now into the 3rd generation born in Lebanon. Why is the discrimination not protested?

[Ulysses G.]

I note that throughout this thread, there is a continued questioning of the legitimacy of Israel. The argument is made that Israel only came into being in 1948 because it was a carve out of the British mandate in 1948.

Ok.

Syria was carved out of the French mandate in April 1946. It was the forced amalgamation several differrent states such as Damscus, Aleppo, the Druze land and the Alawite kingdom. There was no Syria until the French invented the country. And yet, no one questions Syria's right to exist.

How come no one questions the right of existence of Lebanon? It was a distinct part of the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. It only passed to French control at the end of WWI as the Europeans feasted upon the remains of the Ottoman Empire. It was a French mandate until the Germans invaded France. Then, all of a sudden, France said to Lebanon, you can be a country. That was in 1943. How come Lebanon has more legitimacy than Israel?

It all a matter of historical record, but some folks prefer to propagate the PC myth that the Jews took over an actual country called "Palestine", full of "Palestinians" who spoke "Palestinian" and had been there for a few millennium. They never existed. Most of the Arabs were recent immigrants from surrounding countries who came looking for work in the area.

The truth is that the area was mostly barren desert with a city called Jerusalem that was mostly Jews - some of whose families had been there long before Christ was born - who eventually made Israel into a thriving country with the Jews who were driven out of surrounding Muslim countries and their downtrodden cousins from Europe.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[pkspeaker]

Lets not forget that after the failure of the peace negotiations at Taba, (because Israel pulled out of the negotiations when the 2 sides started to narrow their differences, but Israel did however sign a paper that expressed the intention of returning to those negotiations and finishing them, ie: a framework to restart honest negotiations) The lead negotiator at the Taba talks and Camp David Yossi Beilen, met again with the same Palestinian negotiators in Geneva (now being an opposition politian) simply to prove that you could infact get a peace treaty with Yassir Arafat's government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Accord

http://www.haaretz.com/news/the-geneva-accord-1.102684

the deal had majority support of both israeli and palestinians:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poll-most-israelis-palestinians-support-geneva-accord-1.106599

http://www.haaretz.com/news/u-s-says-not-involved-in-geneva-accord-1.102568

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/pa-arafat-okayed-geneva-accord-1.102633

Yassir Arafat gave it conditional support

This happens w/o any engagement by israels right wing government and the obstructionists that control the American government, currently Abbas wants to restart negotiations based on withdrawel of WB and less than 2% in territory swaps, and as we mentioned before Hamas has told Abbas he is free to negotiate a deal with israel and they will allow it to be put to referendum, making the whole 'recognition' issue meaningless..

you can only imagine how quickly a final deal could be reached if there was an israeli government that actually wanted a 2 state solution instead of wanting to perpetuate aphartied.. lets keep in mind a palestinian leader is much less likly to endorse realistic peace initiatives when you have and extremist government in the israeli cabnet, for fear of appearing 'weak'.

just one more thing about geriats rambling about the refugees; the 'millions' of refugee comes from the original 700-800,000 and their decendants, so there are now millions of UN registered refugees, the UN and the world accepts they exist but you don't...just forget about the refugees; fine they're not coming back and you don't think they exist.

And you say I lose credibility because I do not accept the 2 wrongs make a right fallacy! If you have ever taken a Logic class, this is the first fallacy they teach you.. just because there is an issue with Syrian Jews that does not make the much more harsh aphartied vs. Palestinians any more acceptable.

And there are 4000 Syrian Jews, and 5 million Palestinians and Israeli Arabs..there were only 8000 Syrian Jews to begin with and they were given permission to goto America, the 4000 that are there, stay in Syria to preserve their culture, not because they are forced to live there and face oppression and have to 'carry id cards'..Are you saying these 4000 people are having their houses demolished-not likly.. your trying to invent an issue here where one doesn't exist .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Syria

With anti-Jewish feeling reaching a climax in the late 1930s and early 1940s, many Jews considered emigrating. Between 1942 and 1947, around 4,500 Jews arrived in Palestine from Syria and Lebanon.^[42] In December 1947, a pogrom in Aleppo left the community devastated. In August 1949, the Menarsha synagogue was attacked in Damascus. 12 people were killed and dozens injured.

[edit] Recent times

Beginning on the Passover Holiday of 1992, the 4,000 remaining members of the Damascus Jewish community (Arabic Yehud ash-Sham) as well as the Aleppo community and the Jews of Qamishli, were permitted under the regime of Hafez al-Assad to leave Syria for the United States provided they did not emigrate to Israel. Within a few months, thousands of Syrian Jews made their way to Brooklyn with the help of philanthropic leaders of the Syrian Jewish community. The few remaining Jews in Syria live in Damascus.

[chuckd]

And there are 4000 Syrian Jews, and 5 million Palestinians and Israeli Arabs..there were only 8000 Syrian Jews to begin with and they were given permission to goto America, the 4000 that are there, stay in Syria to preserve their culture, not because they are forced to live there and face oppression and have to 'carry id cards'..Are you saying these 4000 people are having their houses demolished-not likly.. your trying to invent an issue here where one doesn't exist .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Syria

With anti-Jewish feeling reaching a climax in the late 1930s and early 1940s, many Jews considered emigrating. Between 1942 and 1947, around 4,500 Jews arrived in Palestine from Syria and Lebanon.^[42] In December 1947, a pogrom in Aleppo left the community devastated. In August 1949, the Menarsha synagogue was attacked in Damascus. 12 people were killed and dozens injured.

[edit] Recent times

Beginning on the Passover Holiday of 1992, the 4,000 remaining members of the Damascus Jewish community (Arabic Yehud ash-Sham) as well as the Aleppo community and the Jews of Qamishli, were permitted under the regime of Hafez al-Assad to leave Syria for the United States provided they did not emigrate to Israel. Within a few months, thousands of Syrian Jews made their way to Brooklyn with the help of philanthropic leaders of the Syrian Jewish community. The few remaining Jews in Syria live in Damascus.

Why are the Damascus Jews only permitted to emigrate to the US?

Did you ever stop to think that if the US won't provide them visas, there is no other place for them to go, since apparently they are unable to emigrate to Israel?

Having lived in the Middle East for over 30 years, I can assure you that other Arab countries feel the Palestinians are second class citizens. Saudi Arabia considered them stateless people until recently. Jordan treats Palestinians with disdain as do the Lebanese and Egyptians.

[Ulysses G.]

you can only imagine how quickly a final deal could be reached if there was an israeli government that actually wanted a 2 state solution instead of wanting to perpetuate aphartied..

Many more false "facts", but this one takes the cake. Israel has offered over and over again to recognize a Palestinian state in return for peace, but they are always refused. Do you really think anyone buys this nonsense that knows anything about Middle East history?

[pkspeaker]

problem is "Palestinian State" you say they are offering is actually just an aphartied scheme- as we have seen from the maps posted on previous 'argentine' thread, have they offered to end the occupation of the westbank in return for peace: no, and when building of settlements continues unabated and 500,000 settlers move in..these offers are presumed fake..

reason Palestinian refugees do not have equal rights in arab states is because the arab countries are waiting for solution to the conflict, then they will be made citizens in accordance with that deal..they don't want to make concessions before deal is reached, and the Palestinians in those camps are represented and they don't want it done unilaterally either.

one more thing on this huge issue of these 1000 or 4000 syrian jews, i guess once they immigrate to the US they could then got israel , they probably don't want to, alot of Jews live in the US and are not interested in living in israel..can we stop pretending the syrian jew issue exists already?

you can only imagine how quickly a final deal could be reached if there was an israeli government that actually wanted a 2 state solution instead of wanting to perpetuate aphartied..

Many more false "facts", but this one takes the cake. Israel has offered over and over again to recognize a Palestinian state in return for peace, but they are always refused. Do you really think anyone buys this nonsense that knows anything about Middle East history?

Edited December 18, 2010 by pkspeaker

[Ulysses G.]

problem is "Palestinian State" you say they are offering is actually just an aphartied scheme...

Do you ever post anything factual? Apartheid had nothing to do with letting the black Africans rule themselves. If the Palestinian Arabs make peace and are allowed to form their own state, they will be left alone by Israel as long as they stop attacking it.

[geriatrickid]

problem is "Palestinian State" you say they are offering is actually just an aphartied scheme- as we have seen from the maps posted on previous 'argentine' thread, have they offered to end the occupation of the westbank in return for peace: no, and when building of settlements continues unabated and 500,000 settlers move in..these offers are presumed fake..

reason Palestinian refugees do not have equal rights in arab states is because the arab countries are waiting for solution to the conflict, then they will be made citizens in accordance with that deal..they don't want to make concessions before deal is reached, and the Palestinians in those camps are represented and they don't want it done unilaterally either.

one more thing on this huge issue of these 1000 or 4000 syrian jews, i guess once they immigrate to the US they could then got israel , they probably don't want to, alot of Jews live in the US and are not interested in living in israel..can we stop pretending the syrian jew issue exists already?

[

reason Palestinian refugees do not have equal rights in arab states is because the arab countries are waiting for solution to the conflict,

Oh come on. That's rubbish and you know it. The Palestinian "cause" has been a convenient issue to deflect attention from the totalitarian, mess that is the arab world.

Do you honestly expect any rational person to accept that as an explanation for systemic discrimination? You want to lecture me on my logic, ok. Where's the logic in denying someone born in Lebanon, a 3rd generation person at that, the right to work outside of unrestricted trades and positions?

You haven't addressed the issue of the Syrian jews. You claim they can travel to the USA. Again, that's bullsh*t. There was a momentarily lifting of the travel ban that allowed an exodus of the elderly after foreign governments paid ransom that was raised by the jewish communities and Israel. Almost all of the emigrees' assets had to be signed over to Syria. If a Syrian is caught trying to flee, he or she is imprisoned. Why haven't you answered the fact that Syrians of the jewish faith are obliged to be identifed as jews in their government documents? The fact of the matter is that the Syrian government holds the remaining jewish community hostage to pressure Israel.

The Syrian issue as you call it has been resolved by ethnic cleansing. The same way the Morroccan jews and Tunisian jews were forced out of their homes despite having a presence for over 2500 years in those countries. Juden frei. And yet you say nothing on that. One cannot discuss refugees unless oen addresses all of the refugees, including the Jews, Christians, Ddruze and Bedouin.

And then this brings us back to Hamas and Gaza. You still haven't addressed the fact the were originally 80,000 inhabitants of Gaza prior to 1948. They were Bedouin and Egyptian. The "Palestinians" came and took their land. You claim that everyone is equal in Gaza. Right. And what of the former residents that had their land confiscated? What's next? Are you now going to claim that the communities will unfurl a big rainbow flag, hold hands and march down the street singing hymns of faith? Oh wait. Gays are subject to death in the Gaza strip. Nevermind.

The Refugee business is a multibillion dollar business for the UN and local arab governments. It is milked for every euro, dollar, shekel and dinar as can be taken. It is like a multi generational welfare family. There is no financial incentive to end the refugee problems as long as aid officials can draw their salaries and political groups can exploit the refugees for their political agendas. Hamas cannot accept Israel, because then that would mean the loss of a rallying point that unites so many diverse groups in Gaza that would otherwise be killing each other. You make the assumption that the support for the Hamas position is homogeneous. It isn't. Unfortunately, as long as the common enemy is stated to be Israel, then it becomes impossible to embark on specific political goals such as building infrastructure or building the society.

Edited December 18, 2010 by geriatrickid

[Ulysses G.]

And then this brings us back to Hamas and Gaza. You still haven't addressed the fact the were originally 80,000 inhabitants of Gaza prior to 1948. They were Bedouin and Egyptian. The "Palestinians" came and took their land. You claim that everyone is equal in Gaza. Right. And what of the former residents that had their land confiscated? What's next? Are you now going to claim that the communities will unfurl a big rainbow flag, hold hands and march down the street singing hymns of faith? Oh wait. Gays are subject to death in the Gaza strip. Nevermind.

Where are all the self-righteous, crocodile tears about the indigenous people of Gaza - who were driven from their land by the "Palestinians"? The so-called "compassion" of the professional Israel-bashers never extends to victims of the terror groups that they are so happy to make up ludicrous excuses for.

[pkspeaker]

geriat-you seem to live in your own world, a world most likly created by various zionist propaganda website.. where as I tend to educate myself using more mainstream media, newspapers, books published by reputable publishing houses

1. You claim there is this huge issue Syrian Jews they are forced to carry id cards etc. id cards in israel also deliniate that the person is jew or arab and i'm against it in both cases..but the Jews from these arab countries have largy immigrated to developed countries and israel.. it's only obvious that few of these jews are interested in returning to their arab country, but if they wanted to go back and fight for these equal rights I'm sure they would have international support-if the israeli-palestinian conflict is settled than it would be that much easier

and you claim this justifies israeli oppressive policies. an issue of injustice in 1948 is one thing, but I keep talking about the appox. 5 million Palestinians that are in Israel/Palestine right now.. and you draw a comparison between 4000 people and 5 million people.

Your perspective is like saying "Blacks are murdered and oppressed in the Congo, therefore it is ok to subject them to aphartied in the United States, and deny them the right to vote." This is the standard '2 wrongs make a right' fallacy, that you don't deny you are using.

2. You claim that in this tiny sliver of land, the Gaza strip- was inhabited by "beduin and egyptian people", but then the "Palestinians came and took their land" .. and "there is no equality there" because there is a conflict there between the original inhabitants and the Palestinians.

I tend to read every article about israel/palestine that i read in newspapers and magazines, and what I watch on the news, there is no real conflict there that you describe, if anything because the land there is so small there is simply too little to fight over, there is a conflict between the Palestinians in Gaza and Israel.

the accepted reality of the Gaza strip is that Gaza, the WB, and modern day Israel were all part of British Palestine, and the Arab peoples of that country had equal rights with their jewish immigrant counterparts under the British government, when israel was created large numbers of refugees were forced into gaza, today there are large refugee camps there and the population of this little sliver of land is 1.5million people, the most densly populated place on earth.. The population in Gaza overwhelmingly considers themselves palestinian, even israeli arabs overwhelmingly consider themselves Palestinian Israelis, ..

clearly your agenda is to divide people, which has always been the zionist agenda, like there is a christian arab, a muslim arab, a beduin, a druze(all these pople speak arabic as a first language btw) where is in america or in a democracy everyone is just an 'American' .. why should people be divided into these subgroups even if there is a conflict over land?

I also forgot to mention 1 thing about these other places like for example Sudan .. Sudan does not have a 'special relationship' with the US and EU. Israel with all their human rights abuses does.. that means billions in foreign aid, tax deductible donations and free trade agreements that eliminate tariifs on imported israeli goods.. a country like israel should not be entitled to a special relationship with western democracies.