Roof Insulation. Worth It? Experiences?

[musiclover]

I'm 2 months away from finally completing building my house E. of Suk, and see loads of ads for roof insulation .............less aircon use and electricity savings etc.

Does anyone have any experience of this here in Pattaya?

I don't know the costs yet but assume its not cheap!

I do have double-skinned walls but really do want a cool(heatwise) house.

Is roof insulation worth it?

Any advice on this is much appreciated

B.

[Erwin1011]

I had my roofs done by a guy from Pattaya, jurgen Lohr or something. The company still exists and you can find them regularly advertising in the Bkk Post. It really helps both Temp and structural. And on the side, we found a termite nest, cleaned it out, spray over it, done. That was 5 yrs ago and still no termites.

If you have double walls, I would spray the stuff als in the spacing, but than again it is rather pricy.

[SnakeBite]

Check out these guys as they will go anywhere in Thailand:

http://www.buildata.com.au/coolcosy/default.htm

There is a Thai office on this page. A lot better than any foam or fiberglass insulation that I have seen around here. Ask for Steven, great guy and speaks English.

[ozzydom]

I'm 2 months away from finally completing building my house E. of Suk, and see loads of ads for roof insulation .............less aircon use and electricity savings etc.

Does anyone have any experience of this here in Pattaya?

I don't know the costs yet but assume its not cheap!

I do have double-skinned walls but really do want a cool(heatwise) house.

Is roof insulation worth it?

Any advice on this is much appreciated

B.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ML. I read up pretty extensively on the same topic before giving an architect my requirements for a house design,and the thread I interpreted from my research was that roof insulation is of little benefit in the tropics and could be detrimental the cooling process.

Applying the principal that hot air rises and cold air sinks,it is better to have good venting of the roof cavity and inlet vents situated on the south (coolest) side of the house ,these can be under the eaves or a verandah , the idea being that the hot air leaves the roof cavity through vents or even spinner extractors and is replaced by the coolest air available from the shady side of the house,which simply means your interior is the coolest temperature possible for your air-con to deal with.

[doctormann]

I'm 2 months away from finally completing building my house E. of Suk, and see loads of ads for roof insulation .............less aircon use and electricity savings etc.

Does anyone have any experience of this here in Pattaya?

I don't know the costs yet but assume its not cheap!

I do have double-skinned walls but really do want a cool(heatwise) house.

Is roof insulation worth it?

Any advice on this is much appreciated

B.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've very recently had my roof spray insulated with polyeurethane foam. The company that I used was ARC - they are a German-run outfit and are located in Pattaya on Sukhumvit. I have also used them to supply and fit a couple of air-con units.

The jury is still out on just how effective the insulation is proving to be and, unfortunately, I don't really have any hard data for comparison. I can say though that the whole house (single story) feels cooler during the day (even without air-con running) and cools down more rapidly after sunset. To complicate the picture a little bit, I also had them fit some forced ventilation in the roof space - the ventillator kicks in if the temperature in the roof space rises above 31 deg. C - so the improvement isn't just from the insulation.

Thinking about it from a physics point of view, the insulation must help as it slows down the rate of heat flow into the roof space. The roof tiles, on a sunny day, will become very hot indeed (well in excess of 40 deg.) and most of that energy will be conducted straight through to your roof space and from there through your ceilings into your living space. This heat flow will continue well after sunset until, eventually, the tiles cool to the ambient temperature. Insulation does not entirely stop the heat flow but does slow it down so your house will stay cooler for longer. And, there must be some saving on air-con costs, especially during day-time use.

An alternative is to use fibre-glass matting, laid over your ceiling boards. This can be effective and is certainly a lot cheaper than the spray-on alternative - this is not cheap, budget about 100,000 Baht for a three-bed bungalow, but does have other advantages such as increasing the strength and security of the roof structure.

So far as ARC are concerned, I have nothing but praise for the way in which they carried out the work. They were thoroughly professional, did a very neat job and left no mess behind. There was no 'hard sell' either - I spent some time with both their air-con and insulation specialists discussing my requirements and the alternatives available. They are probably not the cheapest company around but I don't mind paying a little more for a job well done.

DM

[Thetyim]

Our house had the rolls of insulation added over the ceiling a year after the house was built.

It certainly helped to reduce the temperature.

I cannot remember the cost but it was nowhere near 100k

[monty]

I combined Rockwool rolls on the ceiling, with one of those freeturning extractors on the roof to draw in cooler outside air.

Cheap solution, some 3000 Baht for the extractor and around 30000 for the insulation (300sqm).

Makes a huge difference, it's now comfortable in the livingroom with just the ceiling fans turning, while before it resembled a sauna

Before the insulation, the gypsum ceilng was very hot to the touch, now they just have ambient temperature!

Not sure if the expensive foam will have that much more isolation effect for the premium price, apart from the structural and waterproof advantage...

[ozzydom]

I combined Rockwool rolls on the ceiling, with one of those freeturning extractors on the roof to draw in cooler outside air.

Cheap solution, some 3000 Baht for the extractor and around 30000 for the insulation (300sqm).

Makes a huge difference, it's now comfortable in the livingroom with just the ceiling fans turning, while before it resembled a sauna 

Before the insulation, the gypsum ceilng was very hot to the touch, now they just have ambient temperature!

Not sure if the expensive foam will have that much more isolation effect for the premium price, apart from the structural and waterproof advantage...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monty,a free turning extractor draws hot air from the roof cavity not cool air in,simple physics is that hot air rises,the hotter it is the faster it rises,now if you insulate a ceiling are you not restricting the hot air in the house from escaping.Insulation is great in colder climes where the object is to keep the house warm as it helps hold heat inside the house,but in the tropics the opposite is the objective as your trying to remove the heat.

The CSIRO in OZ has been doing research for decades on housing in the outback where daytime temps reach 50 degrees and the most effective design is a house with no ceilings and a tin roof but with a wide verandah on the shadiest side where air can cool before entering the home and a roof extractor to vent the hot air through the roof.plus there is no air-con out there.

Another method in a typical house with ceilings is to install a large capacity extractor fan in the ceiling to draw the hot air from the rooms into the roof cavity from where it is vented outside. This method is based on nature as in a hot day by the seaside,the hotter the day the faster the hot air rises and consequently the faster the cool air (sea breeze)rushes in to replace it,

[monty]

Ozzydom,

True what you say about hot air rising and making the free turning extractor turn.

However, the temperature under the tiles can easily rise to over 50 degrees from the tiles being heated by the sun. The tiles can get up to 70 degrees just after noon(impossible to touch for more then 5 seconds without getting first degree burns!) Makes one ###### of a radiator

Now when you have the extractor letting escape this extremely hot air, and replace it by outside air of around 30-32 degrees, I can assure you this will already make a big difference.

Combined with the insulation on the gypsum ceilings you'll stop this ceiling from acting as a radiator heating up the rooms underneath!

Getting hot air out of the rooms is an excercise in futility unless you have cooler air to replace it with (i'm talking daytime of course). With daytime outside temperatures always higher then the inside temperature in my house, extracting the inside air and replacing it with hot outside air would just heat up the room...

Quite the opposite of what I like!

When the outside air temperature declines during the evening. opening up the windows will remove the remaining heat pretty quick from the rooms, and the free turning fan will assure there remains no trapped hot air over my ceilings...

[ozzydom]

Getting hot air out of the rooms is an excercise in futility unless you have cooler air to replace it with (i'm talking daytime of course). With daytime outside temperatures always higher then the inside temperature in my house, extracting the inside air and replacing it with hot outside air would just heat up the room...

Quite the opposite of what I like!

Monty,you missed the point I made re drawing in the fresh air from under a verandah on the shady side of the house, stand in the sun for a while then go sit under a shady tree or verandah, then u will see what I mean or put a thermometer in the sun then move it to the shade and note the difference,air from a shaded area is the coolest available prior to turning on your air-con.

[Jai Dee]

I think you're both talking about the same thing here guys...

A roof-mounted extractor will extract the hot air from the cavity space under the tiles... usually the cooler replacement air will come from under the eaves... thus ensuring the ceilings do not have sun-heated tile-heated air sitting there all day.

[monty]

If I understood correctly Ozzydom implied that extracting the air in the living area (not the ceiling cavity) and replacing it with air from a shaded place outside the house (such as a veranda on the northside of the house) would cool down the living area!

This would obviously be correct if their is no aircon available to run during the day, or when they is no more remainig coolness of the night before inside.

Since the original poster asked wether you could reduce electricity consumption through less use of aircon by installing insulation, I assumed he would require the inside temperatures to be lower then the outside temperature by use of aircon units.

In that case one will save substantially with good quality insulation and ventilation of the ceiling cavity.

If you do not have the availability of aircon, then indeed the ways Ozzydom explained will assure that the inside temperatures will be close to those of the "coolest" shaded place outside. If you do not have the ventilation as he described, your place will closely resemble a sauna during the heat of the day

So we're both right, although in different circomstances

One small note to Ozzydom, over here the coolest side is the north part of the house

it is better to have good venting of the roof cavity and inlet vents situated on the south (coolest) side of the house

The sun rises in the East and moves over the South (well, almost overhead during the hot months in Thailand) and settles in the West...

Unless our Earth gets seriously out of whack, the North facing walls and windows of your house will hardly see any sun

[Digger]

I have got the polyeurethane foam insulation in my house after my previous one had fibre wool. To be honest, I dont actually feel much difference during the day - I still find the house to be hot, however I do find that my electric bills have really come down - probably by 50% assuming like for like sized house. I had never really thought about the foam being effective in keeping the heat out, but had worked on the premise that it would help keep the cool aircon air in and not escaping/warming up in the roof space. In that regard I am glad I did it - it cost about 90,000 baht from memory and I'll save that in 2 years as my elctric bills have come down from an average 10,000 baht month to 5,000 baht.

[ozzydom]

Monty.><The original post was regarding the benefits or no of insulation,I was making a case for no insulation ,It goes without saying that design,positioning and orientation enters the equation. The home I have had designed, incorporates 10 foot verandahs all round, 6inch solid walls,38degree roof pitch with east/west flow through ventilators and no ceilings in the living areas (initially anyhow). I have tried to use proven design concepts like the verandahs of a Queenslander, the air-flow of a budhist temple etc ,time will tell if it works as efficiently as I hope.

[wilko]

Monty.><The original post was regarding the benefits or no of insulation,I was making a case for no insulation ,It goes without saying that design,positioning and orientation enters the equation. The home I have had designed, incorporates 10 foot verandahs all round, 6inch solid walls,38degree roof pitch with east/west flow through ventilators and no ceilings in the living areas (initially anyhow). I have tried to use proven design concepts like the verandahs of a Queenslander, the air-flow of a budhist temple etc  ,time will tell if it works as efficiently as I hope.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven’t read everyone’s on this but there seems to be a misconception by some that insulation only keeps you warm…it does both as it separates the different temps. You remember to old joke about the Thermos (vacuum) flask and the guy being so impressed because if you put something hot in it, it kept it hot and if you put something cold in it, it stayed cold, and when asked “so what?”, he replied “So how does it KNOW?”

The real answer to keeping your house cool is an holistic approach; - insulation, ventilation and orientation and coupled with energy saving devices like solar panels your energy consumption can be radically reduced. If you have large unshaded windows facing the sun the rooms will become hot, if the air can’t escape it will stat hot, if the sun can’t beat down directly on your roof/ceiling then it won’t radiate heat into the house. Yes hot air rises, especially in this forum but heat is not only transmitted that way. My house in Oz required no air-con or fans and it could get up to 40C in the summer, it was positioned and orientated correctly, raised on stumps and had fantastic ventilation through huge doors and windows, large verandas and decks and yet it was 100 years old, a Queenslander, of course!

Most of the houses I see in Pattaya are badly designed concrete blocks that rely on air-con to allow them to function at all; their windows, patios and balconies have little function and are little more than post-modern signifiers relating to more sensible designs of yore – they are a travesty and to save energy should be demolished! Failing that, have a look and see what you can do to change the way the house functions. Put blinds over hot windows, get solar hot water, buy shading to prevent direct sunlight hitting sensitive areas, think about what building materials you use, what are the heat retaining properties, and yes insulate to protect heat from radiating inside your roof.

[wilko]

If I understood correctly Ozzydom implied that extracting the air in the living area (not the ceiling cavity) and replacing it with air from a shaded place outside the house (such as a veranda on the northside of the house) would cool down the living area!

This would obviously be correct if their is no aircon available to run during the day, or when they is no more remainig coolness of the night before inside.

Since the original poster asked wether you could reduce electricity consumption through less use of aircon by installing insulation, I assumed he would require the inside temperatures to be lower then the outside temperature by use of aircon units.

In that case one will save substantially with good quality insulation and ventilation of the ceiling cavity.

If you do not have the availability of aircon, then indeed the ways Ozzydom explained will assure that the inside temperatures will be close to those of the "coolest" shaded place outside. If you do not have the ventilation as he described, your place will closely resemble a sauna during the heat of the day 

So we're both right, although in different circomstances

One small note to Ozzydom, over here the coolest side is the north part of the house 

it is better to have good venting of the roof cavity and inlet vents situated on the south (coolest) side of the house

The sun rises in the East and moves over the South (well, almost overhead during the hot months in Thailand) and settles in the West...

Unless our Earth gets seriously out of whack, the North facing walls and windows of your house will hardly see any sun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, doesn't it go round to the North in June/July????

[richardb]

One small note to Ozzydom, over here the coolest side is the north part of the house 

it is better to have good venting of the roof cavity and inlet vents situated on the south (coolest) side of the house

The sun rises in the East and moves over the South (well, almost overhead during the hot months in Thailand) and settles in the West...

Unless our Earth gets seriously out of whack, the North facing walls and windows of your house will hardly see any sun

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure? In blighty its the south facing wall that gets the sun and the north one that does not.

As Thailand is the other side of the equator surely Ozzydom is correct

Richard

[SnakeBite]

Doesn't really matter about which way your house is facing as any insulation on the top of your ceiling area is going to reduce the heat coming into your house. Most people set up their house so that it doesn't face the sun when rising or setting to prevent sunlight coming in through your windows. (there is usually more window space in the front and even the rear of a house than the sides) If heat is getting to the roof area it will invade your living space. You vent a roof to take away excess heat in this area. Venting is NOT a cure all and insulation will help to prevent it travelling down. My roof is vented and has that stupid aluminum sheeting under the roof tiles and it does do bugger all, total waste of material and time.

How is venting going to cure anything unless you are drawing air from a cooler place and if that space is NOT covering part of the house then you can forget that. Would find it very hard to draw air from any distance over 1-3 meters in my way of thinking. In other words, if you don't have a tree hanging over your house, how are you going to get any cool air to your vents?

[ozzydom]

Doesn't really matter about which way your house is facing as any insulation on the top of your ceiling area is going to reduce the heat coming into your house. Most people set up their house so that it doesn't face the sun when rising or setting to prevent sunlight coming in through your windows. (there is usually more window space in the front and even the rear of a house than the sides) If heat is getting to the roof area it will invade your living space. You vent a roof to take away excess heat in this area. Venting is NOT a cure all and insulation will help to prevent it travelling down. My roof is vented and has that stupid aluminum sheeting under the roof tiles and it does do bugger all, total waste of material and time.

How is venting going to cure anything unless you are drawing air from a cooler place and if that space is NOT covering part of the house then you can forget that. Would find it very hard to draw air from any distance over 1-3 meters in my way of thinking. In other words, if you don't have a tree hanging over your house, how are you going to get any cool air to your vents?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you had read the previous posts you would have noticed reference to verandahs, these function as shade for the windows and external walls and through inlet vents provides the cooler air to replace the hot air as its drawn out.

If your roof is vented as you say ,are there inlet vents under your soffits because without the means to allow air in it is an exercise in futility.

[Jai Dee]

Are you sure? In blighty its the south facing wall that gets the sun and the north one that does not.

As Thailand is the other side of the equator surely Ozzydom is correct

Um... not wishing to cast nasturtiums on your intelligence richardb, but have you checked an atlas recently to see which side of the equator both Thailand and England are on?

[SnakeBite]

Doesn't really matter about which way your house is facing as any insulation on the top of your ceiling area is going to reduce the heat coming into your house. Most people set up their house so that it doesn't face the sun when rising or setting to prevent sunlight coming in through your windows. (there is usually more window space in the front and even the rear of a house than the sides) If heat is getting to the roof area it will invade your living space. You vent a roof to take away excess heat in this area. Venting is NOT a cure all and insulation will help to prevent it travelling down. My roof is vented and has that stupid aluminum sheeting under the roof tiles and it does do bugger all, total waste of material and time.

How is venting going to cure anything unless you are drawing air from a cooler place and if that space is NOT covering part of the house then you can forget that. Would find it very hard to draw air from any distance over 1-3 meters in my way of thinking. In other words, if you don't have a tree hanging over your house, how are you going to get any cool air to your vents?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you had read the previous posts you would have noticed reference to verandahs, these function as shade for the windows and external walls and through inlet vents provides the cooler air to replace the hot air as its drawn out.

If your roof is vented as you say ,are there inlet vents under your soffits because without the means to allow air in it is an exercise in futility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ozzydom, To remove the amount of heat that can be generated inside the roof area of a house here in Thailand you would have to have a veranda going all around your house. Then you would need some really big fans to suck the air off this area and this would end up as futile also because after a few minutes any surrounding heat from outside the veranda would get sucked in also.

Hot air rises, no worries there but the heat inside the roof area is still going to heat everything below the ceiling and I just can't imagine how you could generate enough air flow to stop this action. Can't convince me a hot air powered fan is going to make very much difference.

I'll stick with getting insulation done and then at least I have some kind of barrier to keep the hot air from coming through the ceiling in the first place.

[yuyi]

Insulating your roof one way or the other is certainly helpful to keep the house cooler and to reduce the electricity bill.

I did see a house with a cathedral roof (no space for ventilation, but having a foam insulation from Lohr) stay cool enough even without any a/c, and even in the midday sunshine.

ARC in Pattaya and Lohr Trade in Naklua / Pattaya will probably give you both the same good result.

ARC has a better marketing. But I have seen them refuse smaller jobs or more remote jobs. Also their pricing for solar panels is so ridiculously high, that it shines a bad light on their other offers.

Lohr is more flexible, easier to talk with also for these smaller or remote jobs. They do work all over Thailand anyway.

My preference would be Lohr Trade. But ARC should also get the job done with a good quality (if they accept it).

[Erwin1011]

Insulating your roof one way or the other is certainly helpful to keep the house cooler and to reduce the electricity bill.

I did see a house with a cathedral roof (no space for ventilation, but having a foam insulation from Lohr) stay cool enough even without any a/c, and even in the midday sunshine.

ARC in Pattaya and Lohr Trade in Naklua / Pattaya will probably give you both the same good result.

ARC has a better marketing. But I have seen them refuse smaller jobs or more remote jobs. Also their pricing for solar panels is so ridiculously high, that it shines a bad light on their other offers.

Lohr is more flexible, easier to talk with also for these smaller or remote jobs. They do work all over Thailand anyway.

My preference would be Lohr Trade. But ARC should also get the job done with a good quality (if they accept it).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. I negotiated with both and Lohr came out the better. more flexible, same specs and slightly cheaper.

[richardb]

Are you sure? In blighty its the south facing wall that gets the sun and the north one that does not.

As Thailand is the other side of the equator surely Ozzydom is correct

Um... not wishing to cast nasturtiums on your intelligence richardb, but have you checked an atlas recently to see which side of the equator both Thailand and England are on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just looked at an atlas

I shall no longer be applying to travel agent school

Richard

[wilko]

Are you sure? In blighty its the south facing wall that gets the sun and the north one that does not.

As Thailand is the other side of the equator surely Ozzydom is correct

Um... not wishing to cast nasturtiums on your intelligence richardb, but have you checked an atlas recently to see which side of the equator both Thailand and England are on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just looked at an atlas

I shall no longer be applying to travel agent school

Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If directly on the equator, depending on the time of year the sun goes round either to the North or the South....does anyone know if Thailand ever experiences this????

[Jai Dee]

If directly on the equator, depending on the time of year the sun goes round either to the North or the South....does anyone know if Thailand ever experiences this????

What do you think wilko?

By the way, Pattaya is almost exactly 13 degrees north of the equator, Phuket is about 8 degrees north, and Chiang Rai is about 20 degrees north.

Hint... check the latitude of the Tropic of Cancer.

/Edit - Tropic of Cancer, parallel of latitude at 23°30' north of the equator; it is the northern boundary of the tropics. This parallel marks the farthest point north at which the sun can be seen directly overhead at noon; north of the parallel the sun appears less than 90° from the southern horizon at any day of the year. The sun reaches its vertical position over the Tropic of Cancer at about June 22, the summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. When the Tropic of Cancer was named, the sun was in the constellation Cancer at the time of the summer solstice.

- from Factmonster

[doctormann]

Are you sure? In blighty its the south facing wall that gets the sun and the north one that does not.

As Thailand is the other side of the equator surely Ozzydom is correct

Um... not wishing to cast nasturtiums on your intelligence richardb, but have you checked an atlas recently to see which side of the equator both Thailand and England are on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just looked at an atlas

I shall no longer be applying to travel agent school

Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If directly on the equator, depending on the time of year the sun goes round either to the North or the South....does anyone know if Thailand ever experiences this????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK folks, here is the definitive answer to the question about the sun azimuth and elevation at the location of Pattaya:

Facts:

The latitude of Pattaya is 12.68 degrees North

The Vernal Equinox takes place on or about March 21

The Summer Solstice occurs on or about June 21

The Autumnal Equinox takes place on or about September 21

The Winter Solstice occurs on or about December 21

The Earth's rotational axis is inclined to its orbital plane by 23.5 degrees

Any location with a latitude between 23.5 degrees North (Tropic of Cancer) and 23.5 degrees South (Tropic of Capricorn) is 'in the tropics'.

At the Summer Solstice the elevation of the sun for locations on the Tropic of Cancer, at local noon, is 90 degrees, i.e. directly overhead. This occurs on only one day per year for these locations.

At the Winter Solstice the elevation of the sun for locations on the Tropic of Capricorn, at local noon, is 90 degrees. Again, this occurs on only one day per year for these locations.

For locations on the Equator the sun is directly overhead, at local noon, at the Vernal and Autumnal Equinoxes so these locations experience this phenomenon twice per year.

Locations 'within the tropics' also experience the sun directly overhead, at noon, on two days each year.

Approximate calculations for Pattaya (based on circular geometry - should be elliptical geometry but it's too hard so figures will not be accurate) indicate that the sun should be overhead, at noon, approx. one month after the Vernal Equinox (i.e on about April 21) and approx one month before the Autumnal Equinox (i.e. on about August 21). This partly explains why the hottest time of year in Pattaya is in April / May. It would also be very hot in July / August except that there is usually much more cloud at that time of year (but not this year, it seems).

For dates before April 21 and after August 21 the azimuthal angle of the sun will be 180 degrees at noon, i.e. the direction of the sun will be South.

For dates between April 21 and August 21 the azimuthal angle will be 0 degrees at noon, i.e. the direction of the sun will be North.

Therefore we can see that for about four months of the year the noonday sun will in fact be in a northerly direction although for a week or so around 'changeover time' the elevation will be so nearly 90 degrees it would be hard to tell.

As an additional, totally irrelevant, snippet of information did you know that days on the equator (sunrise to sunset) are always 12 hours long, regardless of the time of year? You do get short twighlights of course so it's light for a bit longer than this.

If you build a house with wide verandhas, most of the time the house walls will not see any direct sunlight, unlike the roof tiles. This is because, in tropical locations, the elevation of the sun is high. The walls may see the sun early and late in the day but, at these times, its heating power is much less than in the middle part of the day. It is much more important to insulate the roof - the walls are a secondary consideration and, unless you are going to run air-con during the day, may not be worth the expense.

How you orientate the house seems pretty much irrelevant - getting a good view from your terrace is probably more important than worrying about which wall should face North. Of course, if you can stand the mozzies and like sitting outside in the early evening it might be a good idea to have the terrace facing East. That way you won't be looking into the sun. On the other hand, if you're into sunsets face it the other way. Up2U.

Confused? This is all part of tropical living.

DM

[wilko]

[

DM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brilliant! Loveit...i've copied to HDD for future arguments in bars...and profitable too I'd imagine???

By orientation I was thinking largely in terms of topography and prevailing winds/breezes etc

[Jai Dee]

Sheesh... see what you've started wilko?

[Artisi]

ozzydom>> I like your approach with the wide verandahs and high ceilings but feel that 6" solids walls are a bit of a drawback - my choice would be vented cavity walls. A solid 6" wall is one ###### of a heat storage bank and unlikely to reduce in temperature by any significant amount over night thus retaining the house at a constant temp 24 hrs a day. My aim would be to reduce the "house" temp to its minimum o/night and start the morning with the minimum temp. possible.