What Is The True Cost Of Our Quality Of Life In Thailand?

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

What is the true cost of our quality of life?

By The Nation

We deserve to know which businesses and investors are destroying our environment, then make them pay for the damage from their profits

People in the big cities emit far higher amounts of carbon dioxide than people in the rural areas, largely because of their lifestyle. Bangkokians must therefore take the lead in reducing Thailand's carbon footprint because people in the capital are responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than any other part of the country.

Thais on average leave a carbon footprint of 4 tonnes per capita per year. The figure is comparable to that in many parts of the world. However, the carbon footprint left by Bangkokians is more than 7 tonnes. This alarming figure needs to be rectified through serious and imperative action.

The recent flooding, drought and severe weather fluctuations in Thailand are believed to be a result of climate change. It is unfortunate that the development of economic infrastructure and the rapid urbanisation that follows is always at the cost of our environment. This is despite the fact that a lot of damage could have been prevented. But we would rather remain ignorant, largely because of our lack of consciousness on environmental concerns.

"Green" campaigns by department stores and supermarkets will not be successful if people don't try to incorporate environmentally friendly actions in their daily routines. All of these environmentally friendly promotion campaigns during the festive season are just public relations stunts. There is no action to really help make a difference

Many department stores and supermarkets offer fabric bags to encourage consumers to cut down on the use of plastic bags. Unfortunately, although these campaigns have been going on for a few years, the number of plastic bags distributed by stores has not been reduced. A plan to force consumers to pay for plastic bags was shot down almost immediately. But most plastic bags, particularly from convenience stores, end up in trash bins within minutes of the consumer leaving the shop.

A series of easy measures should be implemented. First, the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority (BMA) should promote recycling of garbage by providing collection bins in various public places. City people dump lot of plastic bottles and containers every day. While some people may wish to recycle these plastic items, they cannot find the necessary recycle bins. Instead of wasting money on useless one-off publicity campaigns, the BMA should spend money on providing these bins and organising trash collection for recycling.

Secondly, as 38 per cent of the carbon footprint in Bangkok is caused by exhaust emissions from vehicles, Bangkokians must be given the opportunity to get out of their cars and shift to public transport. Trains and and buses have to be improved and networks extended. Public transport has to be made attractive, efficient and affordable, otherwise drivers will continue to clog city streets with their cars spewing out vast amounts of pollution.

Environmental awareness should be promoted from an early age. Children must be made aware of the effects of an irresponsible lifestyle and the cost of physical infrastructure. Parents have a responsibility to instil in children good habits such as turning off lights every time they leave the room. Children should learn that every little saving counts.

The media and the public need to continue asking the right questions to address the human effects on the environment. For instance, whenever a new real estate project is announced, serious questions must be asked of the developers. Will they apply environmentally friendly technology in the construction, and is the new project designed according to "green" standards? We should condemn irresponsible developers for causing damage to the environment, but unfortunately the media tends to regard investors according to their wealth on the stock market and their property value every year. This creates the perception that the wealth and money are the only things worth striving for at all cost.

No one tells us which investors leave the biggest carbon footprint. In short, we should know who are the investors and developers who build up profits at the expense of our environment and our quality of life. We should then bring them to book for their irresponsible actions.

-- The Nation 2010-12-25

[asiawatcher]

Why is it we continue to have to put up with such bullshit rhetoric from Governments (not just in Thailand) when all the rubbish sprouted about carbon footprints is eradicated in less than an hour by any volcanic eruption on the planet, anywhere, anytime? Nothing we do will affect or fix the carbon issues and as the earth still is evolving, us little pimples on the grandiose face of time, mean nothing! The only reason the environment is being used as an excuse, is the crooks in Wall Street and around the financial systems get to 'create' another means to leverage and scam money. Ignore it all and take no notice whatsoever of any of it!

Do something about human pollution of waterways, educate in damage rubbish does to land and water, and that will be far more effective than lying to the world about carbon footprints and turning them into 'tradable' commodities so the scam artists can punt on futures.

[buddy]

Quote - The Nation.

".No one tells us which investors leave the biggest carbon footprint. In short, we should know who are the investors and developers who build up profits at the expense of our environment and our quality of life. We should then bring them to book for their irresponsible actions".

Quote.

MESSAGE TO THE NATION NEWSPAPER

Supermarkets leave one of the biggest, if not the biggest Carbon footprint in Thailand.

As Supermarkets are huge energy users and contain a lot of refrigeration and air conditioning systems they are one of the biggest contributers to greenhouse gas carbon emissions in Thialand.

They receive this dubious accolade by 4 ways -

1) Refrigerant leaks from Refrigeration & Air conditioning systems (Chlorine based Refrigerants damage the ozone layer and contribute to global warming),

2) As it is still not illegal in Thialand, the lawfull venting of harmful refrigerants into the atmosphere by Supermarkets Refrigeration contractors (normally low skill level) technicians (no refrigerant recovery takes place).

3) FYI, Refrigerant leaks cause increased power input, so there fore Supermarkets contribute to indirect Co2 Carbon emissions by increased electricity generation at the power station, purely because they dont take refrigerant leaks seriously.

4) Not investing in Energy saving solutions (reducing electricity generation) to reduce operating costs.

Tesco Lotus is the only Supermarket chain that stands out for praise who is seriously tackling this issue, they have a target to reduce Carbon emissions by 20% globally by 2020 and zero by 2050, although for Tesco Thailand I would guess they will struggle to achieve these levels due to poor installation, poor comissioning, & poor maintenance levels of its contractors?

The other Supermarkets/retailers -

TOPS Supermarkets (Central Group).

VILLA Markets

Carrefour

Big C

7- 11 (biggest retailer in Thailand by sales square footage, 5, 000 plus stores).

Foodland

Family Mart

Jusco Supermarkets

Rimping, Chiang Mai

Makro Cash & Carry.

These Global and local retailing companies named above with the exception of Tesco Lotus have no strategies in place to tackle refrigerant emissions & leaks, introduce energy savings and reduce there Carbon footprint.

There you have the information now, the companies have been named and hopefully shamed.

What are you going to do The Nation?....I am interested.

[hearditallbefore]

It is because of these companies that you have investment, development and a job! The best way to live green is to stop everything, quit your terrible polluting job, and go live in a cave so YOU don't add to the pollution. Every time YOU travel on the skytrain, subway, taxi, moto., etc., YOU are polluting this world. Even the energy YOU spent to write that story and the electricity that YOU wasted added to the pollution. Before you do the PC thing and act all green, take a good look in the mirror and fix yourself. There are trade-offs to everything in life, and some are justified. Merry Christmas

[buddy]

It is because of these companies that you have investment, development and a job! The best way to live green is to stop everything, quit your terrible polluting job, and go live in a cave so YOU don't add to the pollution. Every time YOU travel on the skytrain, subway, taxi, moto., etc., YOU are polluting this world. Even the energy YOU spent to write that story and the electricity that YOU wasted added to the pollution. Before you do the PC thing and act all green, take a good look in the mirror and fix yourself. There are trade-offs to everything in life, and some are justified. Merry Christmas

Yes there are trade offs in life like you mention, i pollute the World with my very exisitance.

But do i walk to the Skytrain or get a Taxi to the Skytrain?...a trade off.

I am not a tree hugger, far from it.

Merry Christmas.

[buddy]

Why is it we continue to have to put up with such bullshit rhetoric from Governments (not just in Thailand) when all the rubbish sprouted about carbon footprints is eradicated in less than an hour by any volcanic eruption on the planet, anywhere, anytime? Nothing we do will affect or fix the carbon issues and as the earth still is evolving, us little pimples on the grandiose face of time, mean nothing! The only reason the environment is being used as an excuse, is the crooks in Wall Street and around the financial systems get to 'create' another means to leverage and scam money. Ignore it all and take no notice whatsoever of any of it!

Do something about human pollution of waterways, educate in damage rubbish does to land and water, and that will be far more effective than lying to the world about carbon footprints and turning them into 'tradable' commodities so the scam artists can punt on futures.

Spot on about "tradeable" er commodities, how those conmen on Wall street got involved i dont know.

[jayjay0]

Why is it we continue to have to put up with such bullshit rhetoric from Governments (not just in Thailand) when all the rubbish sprouted about carbon footprints is eradicated in less than an hour by any volcanic eruption on the planet, anywhere, anytime? Nothing we do will affect or fix the carbon issues and as the earth still is evolving, us little pimples on the grandiose face of time, mean nothing! The only reason the environment is being used as an excuse, is the crooks in Wall Street and around the financial systems get to 'create' another means to leverage and scam money. Ignore it all and take no notice whatsoever of any of it!

Do something about human pollution of waterways, educate in damage rubbish does to land and water, and that will be far more effective than lying to the world about carbon footprints and turning them into 'tradable' commodities so the scam artists can punt on futures.

Can you give us a time frame for the amount of carbon foot prints equal to a volcanic eruption. Is it one year of foot prints two days of foot prints what is it. Without the time frame your comment is completely meaningless. I suspect that maybe a hour of footprints would be comparable. That is just a guess based on nothing.

But this is a fact we have been doing it for over two hundred years. Please do not insult my intelligence by telling me we have no effect and if we do it is meaningless. I will not enter into a pis--ing contest. I do not know how much we have done but we have and to try to say it is OK because so and so did more is unacceptable to me. Like being in Kinder garden again.

Pollution comes in many forms. It is easy to pick and choose which type you would like to concentrate on but please do not put down others because they have chosen a different one.

Your comments about Wall Street make absolutely no sense what so ever if they did take a interest in it They would back you to the hilt with a do nothing attitude. Not that I believe in a conspiracy but if there was one they would be behind it trying to get people to ignore man's part in it be it small or big. It cost them money ,cuts into there profits to eliminate the emissions.

Wait a minute maybe there is a conspiracy seems to be working people are starting to deny say do nothing.

[MJP]

Let's begin with the very basics.

Words cannot describe what is necessary to those who do not know what externalized cost means.

Reduce, reuse, recycle. Pretty effective up here in the sticks before, where piles of rubbish have value, but with urban sprawl and a transition from poverty to wealth this country really needs to get rid of the plastic carrier bag by January 2011. The 'drinking straw with each sale of each 15 Baht bottle of fizz' by February.

We have refuse collection up here in the villages now. I drove past the landfill in Roi-Et last week and it's now so full the rubbish is pushing out of the front gate, dear lord it must be 15-20m high in there, probably more.

Well, there are huge costs associated with this dilemma. Costs which have not been paid for by either the vendor of the packaging or in most cases the consignee of the waste. But eventually someone pays. Pays for landfills to be built, properly, because lack of planning caused open, uncontrolled tips to form over the recharge areas of vulnerable aquifers, now contaminated. These costs were not foreseen, but certainly foreseeable.

Bulk buying in places like Makro helps. Surface area to volume ratio of the packaging is much smaller if you buy big. The containers are reusable too.

Spray foam insulation for large commercial premises may also be a growth industry, sealing air-con in and hot out.

Overall I'd say the real culprit here has numbers as it's name.

Very interesting subject.

[hearditallbefore]

Buddy, sorry, I was not referring to you, I was referring to the article constantly talking about "them" when the "them" is actually "us".

It is because of these companies that you have investment, development and a job! The best way to live green is to stop everything, quit your terrible polluting job, and go live in a cave so YOU don't add to the pollution. Every time YOU travel on the skytrain, subway, taxi, moto., etc., YOU are polluting this world. Even the energy YOU spent to write that story and the electricity that YOU wasted added to the pollution. Before you do the PC thing and act all green, take a good look in the mirror and fix yourself. There are trade-offs to everything in life, and some are justified. Merry Christmas

Yes there are trade offs in life like you mention, i pollute the World with my very exisitance.

But do i walk to the Skytrain or get a Taxi to the Skytrain?...a trade off.

I am not a tree hugger, far from it.

Merry Christmas.

[corkman]

Any of you that watch top gear i nthe UK will have heard Clarkson saying this before - but I believe it is true and based on fact (but maybe not, i dunno).

1 dairy cow farting produces more harmful emmissions than than 12 no. 4.2 litre Range Rovers!

So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.

With regard to Thailand, anyone who is familiar with environmentally friendly design principles will know that electricity (or the production of electricity, and its distriubtion from the point of generation to end user) is a highly ineffecient process. If electricity can produced "cleanly" or at least in a "cleaner" way, at source, then alot more will be done for the environment than trying to get millions of people to "clean up their act". There is no such "green" power in Thailand, and until the day that it becomes available, then all other efforts are (relatively) futile, no matter how well intentioned.

I wholeheartedly concur with others points about rubbish being a bigger problem.

Another thing that people are not aware of is water. As a resource, there is alot of time, money, and energy spent distributing clean water - and as a resource there is suprisingly alot less of it there than we generally realise. It is estimated that with the planets growing population, and the industrialisation of nations such as china and india and the wealth that follows (and hence higher demand for water); the demand for water will exceed supply before we run out of oil! And Thailand is frightfully wasteful when it comes to water!

[Joel Barlow]

Wouldn't want to mention Monsanto here, would one?

MWTW - Monsanto, Worse Than War!

[buddy]

Buddy, sorry, I was not referring to you, I was referring to the article constantly talking about "them" when the "them" is actually "us".

It is because of these companies that you have investment, development and a job! The best way to live green is to stop everything, quit your terrible polluting job, and go live in a cave so YOU don't add to the pollution. Every time YOU travel on the skytrain, subway, taxi, moto., etc., YOU are polluting this world. Even the energy YOU spent to write that story and the electricity that YOU wasted added to the pollution. Before you do the PC thing and act all green, take a good look in the mirror and fix yourself. There are trade-offs to everything in life, and some are justified. Merry Christmas

Yes there are trade offs in life like you mention, i pollute the World with my very exisitance.

But do i walk to the Skytrain or get a Taxi to the Skytrain?...a trade off.

I am not a tree hugger, far from it.

Merry Christmas.

No problem....have a great festive season.

[cup-O-coffee]

Well, they would say these things wouldn't they!

The wonderful and caring people they are.

[buddy]

Well, they would say these things wouldn't they!

The wonderful and caring people they are.

Who is "they"?

Who are you refering to?

[RickBradford]

Nobody would deny that the environmental situation in the Third World is pretty bad -- I had to endure the 1997 haze in Singapore caused by indiscriminate forest burning in Indonesia, and have seen what illegal logging has done in Vietnam, Thailand and the Philippines, plus I have to go to Map Ta Phut next week.

This is quite a chilling article about how the drive for development relegates citizens to expendable fodder. http://sayiamgreen.com/blog/2009/09/the-10-most-polluted-cities-in-the-world/"

These are genuine and serious problems.

So I really despair when I see politicians babbling on about 'carbon footprints' and other vague nonsense -- with the vast sums being frittered away on energy from windmills and such like follies, a huge range of existing environmental problems, which affect people's lives right now, could be tackled.

A current example -- a UK government report has just concluded that the country's infrastructure may not be up to dealing with the effects of 'climate change' after the year 2030. If they had the common sense to look out of the window, they would see that the UK's infrastructure has all but collapsed already after a week or so of heavy snow, because the country was not prepared.

What shall we guard against -- the chance of snow in the UK in winter, or the effects of a 3cm rise in sea level by 2030? These people are truly deluded, and I hope Thai authorities don't fall for this toxic rubbish.

[jayjay0]

Any of you that watch top gear i nthe UK will have heard Clarkson saying this before - but I believe it is true and based on fact (but maybe not, i dunno).

1 dairy cow farting produces more harmful emmissions than than 12 no. 4.2 litre Range Rovers!

So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.

With regard to Thailand, anyone who is familiar with environmentally friendly design principles will know that electricity (or the production of electricity, and its distriubtion from the point of generation to end user) is a highly ineffecient process. If electricity can produced "cleanly" or at least in a "cleaner" way, at source, then alot more will be done for the environment than trying to get millions of people to "clean up their act". There is no such "green" power in Thailand, and until the day that it becomes available, then all other efforts are (relatively) futile, no matter how well intentioned.

I wholeheartedly concur with others points about rubbish being a bigger problem.

Another thing that people are not aware of is water. As a resource, there is alot of time, money, and energy spent distributing clean water - and as a resource there is suprisingly alot less of it there than we generally realise. It is estimated that with the planets growing population, and the industrialisation of nations such as china and india and the wealth that follows (and hence higher demand for water); the demand for water will exceed supply before we run out of oil! And Thailand is frightfully wasteful when it comes to water!

Well for the most part I agree with you. How ever why is that a reason to ignore the carbon we are pumping into the air.

Might I suggest because that is some thing we as a individual can do. Do we need the gas guzzlers do we really need the car to go to the store two blocks away for a pack of smokes or a six pack. There is a lot of little things we can do that will add up if enough people do them and in the process improve are health. Chance of that happening zilich reason because my neighbor won't do it. And besides it dosent really matter it is all the fault of volcanoes. That is another way of saying poor me I am doomed so why should I care.

People can flame away on me and I ask the moderators to allow it.

But only a idiot would believe that man has nothing to do with it. Let him come live here in Chiang Mai when the farmers are burning the rice fields In some of the areas Where they burn all there garbage. It will not take them long to realize that volcanoes have nothing to do with the quality of the air they are breathing. Man does have a large hand in it.

[jayjay0]

Any of you that watch top gear i nthe UK will have heard Clarkson saying this before - but I believe it is true and based on fact (but maybe not, i dunno).

1 dairy cow farting produces more harmful emmissions than than 12 no. 4.2 litre Range Rovers!

So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.

With regard to Thailand, anyone who is familiar with environmentally friendly design principles will know that electricity (or the production of electricity, and its distriubtion from the point of generation to end user) is a highly ineffecient process. If electricity can produced "cleanly" or at least in a "cleaner" way, at source, then alot more will be done for the environment than trying to get millions of people to "clean up their act". There is no such "green" power in Thailand, and until the day that it becomes available, then all other efforts are (relatively) futile, no matter how well intentioned.

I wholeheartedly concur with others points about rubbish being a bigger problem.

Another thing that people are not aware of is water. As a resource, there is alot of time, money, and energy spent distributing clean water - and as a resource there is suprisingly alot less of it there than we generally realise. It is estimated that with the planets growing population, and the industrialisation of nations such as china and india and the wealth that follows (and hence higher demand for water); the demand for water will exceed supply before we run out of oil! And Thailand is frightfully wasteful when it comes to water!

In reference to your last Paragraph. I could easily deny it but that is only because I don't understand it. It has always baffled me how I can waste it. For instance if I use the toilet and flush it I do not consider that a waste. Now if I blow my nose and throw the paper in the toilet and flush it rather than throw it in the garbage why is that a waste. Do we not still have the water. Will that gallon of water still not reach the sea?

Even if we have to process it do we still not have it. This is a real problem to me and I would appreciate a honest answer.

[teetersb]

Any of you that watch top gear i nthe UK will have heard Clarkson saying this before - but I believe it is true and based on fact (but maybe not, i dunno).

1 dairy cow farting produces more harmful emmissions than than 12 no. 4.2 litre Range Rovers!

So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.

With regard to Thailand, anyone who is familiar with environmentally friendly design principles will know that electricity (or the production of electricity, and its distriubtion from the point of generation to end user) is a highly ineffecient process. If electricity can produced "cleanly" or at least in a "cleaner" way, at source, then alot more will be done for the environment than trying to get millions of people to "clean up their act". There is no such "green" power in Thailand, and until the day that it becomes available, then all other efforts are (relatively) futile, no matter how well intentioned.

I wholeheartedly concur with others points about rubbish being a bigger problem.

Another thing that people are not aware of is water. As a resource, there is alot of time, money, and energy spent distributing clean water - and as a resource there is suprisingly alot less of it there than we generally realise. It is estimated that with the planets growing population, and the industrialisation of nations such as china and india and the wealth that follows (and hence higher demand for water); the demand for water will exceed supply before we run out of oil! And Thailand is frightfully wasteful when it comes to water!

In reference to your last Paragraph. I could easily deny it but that is only because I don't understand it. It has always baffled me how I can waste it. For instance if I use the toilet and flush it I do not consider that a waste. Now if I blow my nose and throw the paper in the toilet and flush it rather than throw it in the garbage why is that a waste. Do we not still have the water. Will that gallon of water still not reach the sea?

Even if we have to process it do we still not have it. This is a real problem to me and I would appreciate a honest answer.

Saltwater aplenty, but potable water comprises only about 3% of all water on earth. What we need is the ability & resolve to use saltwater for all things not requiring fresh water.

:jap:

[asiawatcher]

Why is it we continue to have to put up with such bullshit rhetoric from Governments (not just in Thailand) when all the rubbish sprouted about carbon footprints is eradicated in less than an hour by any volcanic eruption on the planet, anywhere, anytime? Nothing we do will affect or fix the carbon issues and as the earth still is evolving, us little pimples on the grandiose face of time, mean nothing! The only reason the environment is being used as an excuse, is the crooks in Wall Street and around the financial systems get to 'create' another means to leverage and scam money. Ignore it all and take no notice whatsoever of any of it!

Do something about human pollution of waterways, educate in damage rubbish does to land and water, and that will be far more effective than lying to the world about carbon footprints and turning them into 'tradable' commodities so the scam artists can punt on futures.

Can you give us a time frame for the amount of carbon foot prints equal to a volcanic eruption. Is it one year of foot prints two days of foot prints what is it. Without the time frame your comment is completely meaningless. I suspect that maybe a hour of footprints would be comparable. That is just a guess based on nothing.

AW - American Geophysical Union. "Volcanism and climate change." AGU Special Report. American Geophysical Union, Washington, DC., 1992, 27 pages.Sigurdsson, H., 1990. "Assessment of the atmospheric impact of volcanic eruptions." In, Global catastrophes in earth history; and interdisciplinary conference on impacts, volcanism, and mass mortality, edited by Sharpton, V. L. and Ward, P. D. , 99-110. Geological Society of America, Special Paper 247.Williams, H. and McBirney, A. R. Volcanology. San Francisco, California: Freeman, Cooper and Co., 1979, 397 pages.

Pollution comes in many forms. It is easy to pick and choose which type you would like to concentrate on but please do not put down others because they have chosen a different one.

AW - Agree - pollution comes in many forms - what is the point of the second comment as it makes no sense to be able to be answered?

Your comments about Wall Street make absolutely no sense what so ever if they did take a interest in it They would back you to the hilt with a do nothing attitude. Not that I believe in a conspiracy but if there was one they would be behind it trying to get people to ignore man's part in it be it small or big. It cost them money ,cuts into there profits to eliminate the emissions.

AW - As with all things the human mind conceives, pork belly futures, gold futures, secondary and tertiary mortgage markets, Wall Street and stock exchanges globally are just a crap shoot. By creating a "carbon credit market" fueled by irresponsible unfounded media and baseless facts, it is just another ploy allowing gamblers (professional, commercial, industrial and mums and dads) to speculate on something with no tangible value. So if you cannot understand the stupidity of the Wall Street system then no issue.

[asiawatcher]

Why is it we continue to have to put up with such bullshit rhetoric from Governments (not just in Thailand) when all the rubbish sprouted about carbon footprints is eradicated in less than an hour by any volcanic eruption on the planet, anywhere, anytime? Nothing we do will affect or fix the carbon issues and as the earth still is evolving, us little pimples on the grandiose face of time, mean nothing! The only reason the environment is being used as an excuse, is the crooks in Wall Street and around the financial systems get to 'create' another means to leverage and scam money. Ignore it all and take no notice whatsoever of any of it!

Do something about human pollution of waterways, educate in damage rubbish does to land and water, and that will be far more effective than lying to the world about carbon footprints and turning them into 'tradable' commodities so the scam artists can punt on futures.

Can you give us a time frame for the amount of carbon foot prints equal to a volcanic eruption. Is it one year of foot prints two days of foot prints what is it. Without the time frame your comment is completely meaningless. I suspect that maybe a hour of footprints would be comparable. That is just a guess based on nothing.

AW - American Geophysical Union. "Volcanism and climate change." AGU Special Report. American Geophysical Union, Washington, DC., 1992, 27 pages.Sigurdsson, H., 1990. "Assessment of the atmospheric impact of volcanic eruptions." In, Global catastrophes in earth history; and interdisciplinary conference on impacts, volcanism, and mass mortality, edited by Sharpton, V. L. and Ward, P. D. , 99-110. Geological Society of America, Special Paper 247.Williams, H. and McBirney, A. R. Volcanology. San Francisco, California: Freeman, Cooper and Co., 1979, 397 pages.

Pollution comes in many forms. It is easy to pick and choose which type you would like to concentrate on but please do not put down others because they have chosen a different one.

AW - Agree - pollution comes in many forms - what is the point of the second comment as it makes no sense to be able to be answered?

Your comments about Wall Street make absolutely no sense what so ever if they did take a interest in it They would back you to the hilt with a do nothing attitude. Not that I believe in a conspiracy but if there was one they would be behind it trying to get people to ignore man's part in it be it small or big. It cost them money ,cuts into there profits to eliminate the emissions.

AW - As with all things the human mind conceives, pork belly futures, gold futures, secondary and tertiary mortgage markets, Wall Street and stock exchanges globally are just a crap shoot. By creating a "carbon credit market" fueled by irresponsible unfounded media and baseless facts, it is just another ploy allowing gamblers (professional, commercial, industrial and mums and dads) to speculate on something with no tangible value. So if you cannot understand the stupidity of the Wall Street system then no issue.

Actually jayjayO here is a good link also explaining to the masses. Good bit of education for you.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/3755623/part_2/meet-the-man-who-has-exposed-the-great-climate-change-con-trick.thtml

Pilmer - here is an excerpt from another speech of his:

"it's very disheartening to realize that all ofthe carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering theinconvenience and expense of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocerybags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kid's "The GreenRevolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting abrick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat,vacationing at home instead of Bali, nearly getting hit every day on yourbicycle, replacing all of your $1 light bulbs with $10 light bulbs...well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubesin just four days.The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmospherein just four days - yes - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, hastotally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast,carbon. And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewingout this crud any one time EVERY DAY.

Oh, I don't really want to rain on your parade toomuch, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt. Pinatubo erupted in thePhilippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmospherethan the entire human race had emitted in its entire 40 MILLION YEARS on earth.Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was active for over one year - think about it.

Cheers jayjayO - I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but I don't put up garbage and baseless opinions. Have a good Christmas.

[buddy]

So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.

It is also worth noting that animals that we rely on for meat, Cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, Turkeys etc also require feeding and watering and that huge expanses of land are set aside just to grow the fodder and grain to sustain them till slaughter...Farming meat animals is a hugely inefficient way of producing food.

[jayjay0]

Why is it we continue to have to put up with such bullshit rhetoric from Governments (not just in Thailand) when all the rubbish sprouted about carbon footprints is eradicated in less than an hour by any volcanic eruption on the planet, anywhere, anytime? Nothing we do will affect or fix the carbon issues and as the earth still is evolving, us little pimples on the grandiose face of time, mean nothing! The only reason the environment is being used as an excuse, is the crooks in Wall Street and around the financial systems get to 'create' another means to leverage and scam money. Ignore it all and take no notice whatsoever of any of it!

Do something about human pollution of waterways, educate in damage rubbish does to land and water, and that will be far more effective than lying to the world about carbon footprints and turning them into 'tradable' commodities so the scam artists can punt on futures.

Can you give us a time frame for the amount of carbon foot prints equal to a volcanic eruption. Is it one year of foot prints two days of foot prints what is it. Without the time frame your comment is completely meaningless. I suspect that maybe a hour of footprints would be comparable. That is just a guess based on nothing.

AW - American Geophysical Union. "Volcanism and climate change." AGU Special Report. American Geophysical Union, Washington, DC., 1992, 27 pages.Sigurdsson, H., 1990. "Assessment of the atmospheric impact of volcanic eruptions." In, Global catastrophes in earth history; and interdisciplinary conference on impacts, volcanism, and mass mortality, edited by Sharpton, V. L. and Ward, P. D. , 99-110. Geological Society of America, Special Paper 247.Williams, H. and McBirney, A. R. Volcanology. San Francisco, California: Freeman, Cooper and Co., 1979, 397 pages.

Pollution comes in many forms. It is easy to pick and choose which type you would like to concentrate on but please do not put down others because they have chosen a different one.

AW - Agree - pollution comes in many forms - what is the point of the second comment as it makes no sense to be able to be answered?

Your comments about Wall Street make absolutely no sense what so ever if they did take a interest in it They would back you to the hilt with a do nothing attitude. Not that I believe in a conspiracy but if there was one they would be behind it trying to get people to ignore man's part in it be it small or big. It cost them money ,cuts into there profits to eliminate the emissions.

AW - As with all things the human mind conceives, pork belly futures, gold futures, secondary and tertiary mortgage markets, Wall Street and stock exchanges globally are just a crap shoot. By creating a "carbon credit market" fueled by irresponsible unfounded media and baseless facts, it is just another ploy allowing gamblers (professional, commercial, industrial and mums and dads) to speculate on something with no tangible value. So if you cannot understand the stupidity of the Wall Street system then no issue.

The reason for the second comment was your inference that to try to clean the air is a waste of time so don't bother.

As for wall street reread your article you brought it up. I just pointed out that if they were in a conspiracy it would be to back up your statements. I don't believe they are but if they were is all I was saying.

For your references I will in all likely hood look through them. Fact is I also know as do you that if I want to I can find contradictory evidence. Particularly sence I see the date is 1990. Not that the date matters a great deal after all man's knowledge is changing to fast to keep up.

My point was we live in a real world. All you have to do is come here to Chiang Mai in the burning season.. You may read all the studies you wish to but if you spend two months here in the burning season you will notice the smog and if you are a little bit sensitive your eyes will itch and you might find breathing a little bit harder. You will also note we don't have a volcano blowing next door to us. Just a lot of rice farmers burning and a lot of people burning there garbagee. Be sure to bring your motor bike nothing like a nice ride in the country to the smell of burning garbage.

In short fight or don't fight any type of pollution you wish to but don't tell people who fight a different one they are wasting there time because there is no pollution.

[Bagwan]

It is also worth noting that animals that we rely on for meat, Cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, Turkeys etc also require feeding and watering and that huge expanses of land are set aside just to grow the fodder and grain to sustain them till slaughter...Farming meat animals is a hugely inefficient way of producing food.

Agreed, so let's start working on making a bowl of Corn Flakes as satisfying to eat as fillet steak.

Did God make a big mistake when he created animals? All that we have done is husband them. Should we thank the early Americans for massacring all the buffalo herds? It would be a strange diet without eggs.

[phetaroi]

I think the real flaw in the original post was the premise that carbon footprint related issues is all that's involved in "quality of life".

[corkman]

Any of you that watch top gear i nthe UK will have heard Clarkson saying this before - but I believe it is true and based on fact (but maybe not, i dunno).

1 dairy cow farting produces more harmful emmissions than than 12 no. 4.2 litre Range Rovers!

So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.

With regard to Thailand, anyone who is familiar with environmentally friendly design principles will know that electricity (or the production of electricity, and its distriubtion from the point of generation to end user) is a highly ineffecient process. If electricity can produced "cleanly" or at least in a "cleaner" way, at source, then alot more will be done for the environment than trying to get millions of people to "clean up their act". There is no such "green" power in Thailand, and until the day that it becomes available, then all other efforts are (relatively) futile, no matter how well intentioned.

I wholeheartedly concur with others points about rubbish being a bigger problem.

Another thing that people are not aware of is water. As a resource, there is alot of time, money, and energy spent distributing clean water - and as a resource there is suprisingly alot less of it there than we generally realise. It is estimated that with the planets growing population, and the industrialisation of nations such as china and india and the wealth that follows (and hence higher demand for water); the demand for water will exceed supply before we run out of oil! And Thailand is frightfully wasteful when it comes to water!

In reference to your last Paragraph. I could easily deny it but that is only because I don't understand it. It has always baffled me how I can waste it. For instance if I use the toilet and flush it I do not consider that a waste. Now if I blow my nose and throw the paper in the toilet and flush it rather than throw it in the garbage why is that a waste. Do we not still have the water. Will that gallon of water still not reach the sea?

Even if we have to process it do we still not have it. This is a real problem to me and I would appreciate a honest answer.

Saltwater aplenty, but potable water comprises only about 3% of all water on earth. What we need is the ability & resolve to use saltwater for all things not requiring fresh water.

:jap:

Yes, and furthermore the "potable" water you use is pumped to your house and treated before it gets to you. It redirects water from its natural course. Damns are created to "harvest" water to feed the demand. All this plays havoc with natural life cycles of entire ecosystems..... and is a contributing part of drought in some areas, floods in others, and various other destruction of habitat scenarios.

Waste water treatment further polutes and damages the environment.

Using saltwater to flush our toilets etc. is fine if you live close enough to the sea, but realistically, you would need to literally pump it up hill all the way from the ocean to the point of use..... where as traditional water systems tend to pump downhill, as such. Furthermore, it is not really feasible to pump it too far from the ocean, and then salt water is very harsh on equipment, needing much more robust, expensive, and carbon-intensive manufacture to produce. On the otherhand, recycling waste water locally, and using "grey" water to flush toilets and urinals and irrigate landscapes is perfectly feasible, hygenic, and a worthwhile exercise...... but when people think about re-using "dirty" water to flush their toilets they have visions of septic stinking brown water being pumped into their perfect white bathroom......

While not obvious, the effects of water abuse are more tangible and immediate than people realise .......... but there's no "green" industry in telling people to turn the tap off while brushing their teeth instead of letting it running or encouraging them to use local plants in the garden instead of the exotic ones that need excess watering.

Tap tap water - fill a container with it - add a fish to it, and see how long it lasts.......bullet proof fair ground goldfish the exception, the chlorine etc. in most tap waters will poison a fish and kill it. Yes, chlorine evaporates in time, but still......

If we are talking about destruction of the planet and inadvertently discussing what a crappy place it would be for us all to live it is is poluted and devoid of all but essential food-stuff life etc. then potable water, or the lack there of, should be our first concern.

[jayjay0]

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<br>Any of you that watch top gear i nthe UK will have heard Clarkson saying this before - but I believe it is true and based on fact (but maybe not,  i dunno).<br><br><b>1 dairy cow farting produces more harmful emmissions than than 12 no. 4.2 litre Range Rovers!<br><br></b>So, rather than beating a drum about emmissions from cars for example, and heavily taxing people (at least  in the UK) for owning and driving these so-called gas guzzling polution factories, wouldn't it be more effective to take measures to reduce the number of cows on the plantet - or at least take measures to reduce the demand for same. And it is not just the cows "farting" but what about the countless thousands of hectares of rain forest in brazil that are felled to make way for grazing pastures for the cattle........ and lets face it, we could all do with eating less beef and dairy products (children being the noted exception)...... more over less meat in general....... but none of the this type of thing can be used to pedal the corporate machine as 'Asiawatcher' mentioned.<br><br>With regard to Thailand, anyone who is familiar with environmentally friendly design principles will know that electricity (or the production of electricity, and its distriubtion from the point of generation to end user) is a highly ineffecient process. If electricity can produced "cleanly" or at least in a "cleaner" way, at source, then alot more will be done for the environment than trying to get millions of people to "clean up their act". There is no such "green" power in Thailand, and until the day that it becomes available, then all other efforts are (relatively) futile, no matter how well intentioned.<br><br>I wholeheartedly concur with others points about rubbish being a bigger problem.<br><br>Another thing that people are not aware of is water. As a resource, there is alot of time, money, and energy spent distributing clean water - and as a resource there is suprisingly alot less of it there than we generally realise. It is estimated that with the planets growing population, and the industrialisation of nations such as china and india and the wealth that follows (and hence higher demand for water); the demand for water will exceed supply before we run out of oil! And Thailand is frightfully wasteful when it comes to water!<br>

<br><br>In reference to your last Paragraph. I could easily deny it but that is only because I don't understand it. It has always baffled me how I can waste it. For instance if I use the toilet and flush it I do not consider that a waste. Now if I blow my nose and throw the paper in the toilet and flush it rather than throw it in the garbage why is that a waste. Do we not still have the water. Will that gallon of water still not reach the sea? <br><br>Even if we have to process it do we still not have it. This is a real problem to me and I would appreciate a honest answer.<br>

<br><br><br>Saltwater aplenty, but potable water comprises only about 3% of all water on earth. What we need is the ability & resolve to use saltwater for all things not requiring fresh water. <br><img src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/jap.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=":jap:"><br>

<br><br>Yes, and furthermore the "potable" water you use is pumped to your house and treated before it gets to you. It redirects water from its natural course. Damns are created to "harvest" water to feed the demand. All this plays havoc with natural life cycles of entire ecosystems..... and is a contributing part of drought in some areas, floods in others, and various other destruction of habitat scenarios.<br><br>Waste water treatment further polutes and damages the environment.<br><br>Using saltwater to flush our toilets etc. is fine if you live close enough to the sea, but realistically, you would need to literally pump it up hill all the way from the ocean to the point of use..... where as traditional water systems tend to pump downhill, as such. Furthermore, it is not really feasible to pump it too far from the ocean, and then salt water is very harsh on equipment, needing much more robust, expensive, and carbon-intensive manufacture to produce. On the otherhand, recycling waste water locally, and using "grey" water to flush toilets and urinals and irrigate landscapes is perfectly feasible, hygenic, and a worthwhile exercise...... but when people think about re-using "dirty" water to flush their toilets they have visions of septic stinking brown water being pumped into their perfect white bathroom......<br><br>While not obvious, the effects of water abuse are more tangible and immediate than people realise .......... but there's no "green" industry in telling people to turn the tap off while brushing their teeth instead of letting it running or encouraging them to use local plants in the garden instead of the exotic ones that need excess watering.<br><br>Tap tap water - fill a container with it - add a fish to it, and see how long it lasts.......bullet proof fair ground goldfish the exception, the chlorine etc. in most tap waters will poison a fish and kill it. Yes, chlorine evaporates in time, but still......<br><br>If we are talking about destruction of the planet and inadvertently discussing what a crappy place it would be for us all to live it is is poluted and devoid of all but essential food-stuff life etc. then potable water, or the lack there of, should be our first concern.<br>

<br><br>

Thank you for your answer. I am still a little confused as to how it is a waste if we still have it. Not a unusual thing for me. As you say the process they go through to get it and the treatment of it is highly damaging to the environment.(not as much as volcano's)For the long term if I remember the dam's fill up with silt and whatever and loose there capacity to generate power over a long time.

[teetersb]

Corkman I agree with your synopsis and feel there is urgent need to develop technologies, especially "lo-tech" for the underdeveloped nations, in Grey-water reuse and salt water delivery systems to reduce potable water use.

JJO I think the main problem of "waste" is that once the water is used and then runs off into the oceans it becomes less recoverable saltwater. Additionally, most of the Earth's freshwater is locked up in rapidly melting glaciers that also runoff into the seas.

There is an estimated 1.5-2 Billion people living in coastal areas and anther 1 Billion people living within 200 KM of coastal areas (about 45-50% of the current world pop., according to many world pop. sources). This number is increasing rapidly as China industrializes and it's rural population moves to coastal areas for employment.

[MJP]

A 7-11 yesterday. Vitamilk (that soya milk with vitamins), two bottles of.

So for 26 Baht we now have two glass bottles, two metal caps, two plastic straws and the mandatory plastic carrier bag. Oh and about 360ml of soya milk.

Anyone see a problem with this picture?

[jayjay0]

A 7-11 yesterday. Vitamilk (that soya milk with vitamins), two bottles of.

So for 26 Baht we now have two glass bottles, two metal caps, two plastic straws and the mandatory plastic carrier bag. Oh and about 360ml of soya milk.

Anyone see a problem with this picture?

When you put it that way YES most assuredly.

And you are not even taking into account the pollution to produce them. Or recycle them.:jap:

[fractrain]

A 7-11 yesterday. Vitamilk (that soya milk with vitamins), two bottles of.

So for 26 Baht we now have two glass bottles, two metal caps, two plastic straws and the mandatory plastic carrier bag. Oh and about 360ml of soya milk.

Anyone see a problem with this picture?

Yes! The cheapo's didn't give you any glue. If they would just include some glue the crafting industry in metropolitan areas would really take off!