Charles Schwab Debit Card/Checking/Brokerage Acct

[JimGant]

Just signed up for the Schwab Platinum debit/ATM card...

Someone earlier in this thread said, yes, the daily limit is $1000 -- but that you're restricted to $500 per pull at the ATM. That sounds peculiar ... or maybe the ATM machine he uses has that restriction. I'll want to pull 25000 baht each time ($800+). Is there, indeed, a $500 restriction per pull?

Also, can you notify Schwab on their website that the card will be used mostly in Thailand? And, whether by phone or their website, can this be perpetual -- or do you have to remind them again after so many days?

Thanx.

[Langsuan Man]

Just signed up for the Schwab Platinum debit/ATM card...

Someone earlier in this thread said, yes, the daily limit is $1000 -- but that you're restricted to $500 per pull at the ATM. That sounds peculiar ... or maybe the ATM machine he uses has that restriction. I'll want to pull 25000 baht each time ($800+). Is there, indeed, a $500 restriction per pull?

Also, can you notify Schwab on their website that the card will be used mostly in Thailand? And, whether by phone or their website, can this be perpetual -- or do you have to remind them again after so many days?

Thanx.

Most ATM's in Thailand limit you to 20,000 THB per pull, the major exception being Bangkok Bank, which will allow you 25,000 THB per pull. But these limits are just limits set by the banks to insure that many customers can be served from one machine. You can use the same machine a multiple of times on the same day, only limited by your US Banks daily limit I don't know where you got the $500 restriction figure from, dollar limits are only imposed by US banks

AEON ATM. which are not bank ATM's allow you to pull as much as 40,000 THB per pull but once again your actual limit is set by your US Bank

[JimGant]

I don't know where you got the $500 restriction figure from, dollar limits are only imposed by US banks

I got if from post #6 in this thread:

One drawback is that it's limited to $500 per withdrawal and $1000 in a 24 hour period at an ATM.

Talked to Schwab briefly and it seems that I cannot up the limit.

So, the question remains: Can I withdraw 25k baht, per pull, with my Schwab card (from a Bangkok Bank 25k machine)?

[Pib]

Here's my stab at answering the questions:

Hi, I'm moving to Bangkok soon from the States and just read all 10 pages of this topic. Great information and very glad to have come across it. I have a couple of questions I'm hoping the Schwab experts can answer, because if I'm going to set this up I really need to get the process started so I can send in the paperwork, link accounts, and receive checks and the ATM card before I leave. I don't think answers to these specific questions were answered already, but if they were I apologize for asking again. I'd be very grateful for any help you can offer. Thanks!

1.) What are AEON ATMs, and how do I tell them apart from regular ATMs?

ANS: They have the name AEON on them. If it's a Thai bank machine it will have that bank's name on the ATM. Plus, when going to the web link in your Question 2 below, you'll see some pictures of AEON ATMs.

2.) How can I find out where all AEON ATMs are located in Bangkok?

ANS: Go to this AEON link: Link

3.) With the Schwab Visa Debit/ATM card, can I make a debit purchase at a store and opt to receive cash back as well that will be debited from my account? If so, are any fees incurred to me or Schwab because of this?

ANS: At Thai checkout counters, I've stood behind a lot of people who pay with credit or debit cards, but I've never seen anyone also get cash back. Here in Thailand when you pay for something using an credit/debit card you hand the card to the cashier, they swipe it through their Point of Sale machine, they press in some info, and then a receipt prints out which you sign and give back to them. You are probably more use to a card swipe machine with keypad where "you" swipe the card and entry your PIN...and select a cash back also...that is, the cashier never touches the card. They don't seem to do that here in Thailand based on my experience. Here, you hand them the card, they swipe it, you sign the receipt, and you are done. But if you could do a cash back option with the sale, I don't see where there would be any charge by Schwab as their debit card does not charge a foreign transaction fee. Dont worry about easily being about to get cash as you can hardly take 10 steps before bumping into an ATM....ATMs are everywhere!!!

4.) Can my employer in Thailand direct deposit all of my paychecks into my Schwab checking account and is this easy to do? If not, will I need to open a checking account with a Thai bank and then transfer funds from that checking account to my Schwab account? Will doing so incur any fees to me or Schwab?

ANS: I'm on a Retirement Visa and don't work in Thailand but I expect they would only direct deposit into a Thai bank account. When having a work permit you can transfer money out of Thailand, which is equal to your income minus taxes and living expenses. See the Bangkok Bank link,specifically Q&A #2 for more details: Link. But I have seen ThaiVisa posts where people go to the Thai bank and apparently have transferred funds out of country, but usually those posts didn't say if the member had a work permit, was sending back funds from sale of a home, etc. Hopefully others will chime in.

5.) If I need to link a Thai bank account to my Schwab checking account I take it that means I need to mail the paperwork from Thailand. Will that pose a problem?

ANS: I expect you will need a U.S. address to open a Schwab account, but I can't say whether they would accept a "Mailing address" which was an international address. I don't think you will be able to setup a transfer link where money is "pushed" from your Thai bank account to any other non-Thailand bank account like a Schwab account since Thailand has strict rules on how much and for what reasons money can be transmitted outside to Thailand. And you won't be able to "pull" money from you Thai bank account to you Schwab account because the Thai bank will block/reject such an transaction. Personally, I have a military APO Mailing address for my Schwab accounts, but I think there are other who have a Thai address...hopefully they will chime in. Once you setup a Schwab brokerage/checking/savings account, you can setup funds transfer links online using the trial deposit method for the "brokerage" account...no need to mail forms to setup up the links. But for the checking and savings accounts Schwab still does the paper forms to setup the external bank links. But you can pull money from your checking or savings account into your brokerage account, and then transfer money to an external bank from your brokerage account....you are basically using your brokerage account like a checking/savings account to transfer funds.

6.) If I have to use a non AEON ATM to make a transaction, are the certain bank branch ATMs I should avoid and are there any which are best to use? I saw in one post that Bank of Ayudha and SCB may sometimes have lower rates, so I want to make sure I'd be going to the best ATMs.

ANS: As long as you don't select a the Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) option which may be offered, the exchange rate you get will be based on the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate which is plus or minus around 0..25% is equal to the Thai bank TT Buying Rate given for inbound money transfers. This applies to all ATMs. Basically, Visa/Mastercard determine the exchange rate given via ATM and not the Thai bank or AEON. But if you select DCC, you get around 3-4% lower exchange rate which is controlled by the bank/merchant, but that will make the Thai bank very happy in making that nice little profit. Just say NO to DCC, whether it[s a credit/debit/ATM card transaction. Since you would be using the Schwab Visa debit card there would be no foreign transaction fee and you would get the Visa exchange rate, which is usually just a little better than the TT rate.

[ThaiBound81]

You guys are great! Thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions. I'm sure you can probably tell I am no expert in this arena.

I think I'm in a predicament now because my original plan of having direct deposits into my Schwab checking account from my Thailand based employer apparently cannot be done. Furthermore, I cannot transfer funds (or very much at least) from a Thai bank account to my Schwab accounts. So much for using Schwab as my only accounts over there. Back to the drawing board.

Do these two ideas sound good to you? If not, what would you suggest I do?

- I guess I can set up a Thai bank account, have my employer direct deposit to there, and use that ATM/debit card for withdrawals/purchases all around Thailand (at any ATM/store?) and not be charged a fee. Or can I only go to my Thai bank's ATMs to avoid being charged a fee?

- I can also set up a Schwab Brokerage and Checking Account with some money I have saved and may need to access from time to time. I can use this account as an emergency fund and also use this as an ATM fund when I travel to neighboring countries to avoid ATM fees. Catch being (correct me if I'm wrong), funds will be taken out from this account periodically, so I may want to keep another account in the US with some money that I can transfer back into this one if need be.

Edited May 19, 2011 by ThaiBound81

[ThaiBound81]

Deleted duplicate post...site jammed on me.

Edited May 19, 2011 by ThaiBound81

[jfchandler]

Jim, to the best of my knowledge, my Schwab ATM/debit card limits are $1,000 for ATM w/d and $1,500 for POS...

Those wouldn't be amounts I would have self-selected, so I'm assuming those were the defaults that came with my account.

My sense is, Schwab does have limits, but they're not identical across all accounts.

I don't know where you got the $500 restriction figure from, dollar limits are only imposed by US banks

I got if from post #6 in this thread:

One drawback is that it's limited to $500 per withdrawal and $1000 in a 24 hour period at an ATM.

Talked to Schwab briefly and it seems that I cannot up the limit.

So, the question remains: Can I withdraw 25k baht, per pull, with my Schwab card (from a Bangkok Bank 25k machine)?

[jfchandler]

1. I think I'm in a predicament now because my original plan of having direct deposits into my Schwab checking account from my Thailand based employer apparently cannot be done.

2. - I guess I can set up a Thai bank account, have my employer direct deposit to there, and use that ATM/debit card for withdrawals/purchases all around Thailand (at any ATM/store?) and not be charged a fee. Or can I only go to my Thai bank's ATMs to avoid being charged a fee?

3. - I can also set up a Schwab Brokerage and Checking Account with some money I have saved and may need to access from time to time. I can use this account as an emergency fund and also use this as an ATM fund when I travel to neighboring countries to avoid ATM fees. Catch being (correct me if I'm wrong), funds will be taken out from this account periodically, so I may want to keep another account in the US with some money that I can transfer back into this one if need be.

Re #1, I wouldn't expect any Thai employer would be able to direct deposit funds into a U.S. account, unless the employer was some kind of international outfit based in the U.S. That idea seems a non-starter.

Re #2, the Bank of Thailand is changing the rules on this some lately, regarding the numbers of transactions and fees involved... But basically, if you hold a card from one Thai bank, you typically can use that card at OTHER Thai banks' ATMs up to a couple (3-5, I can't recall) times per month without a fee. After that, there's typically a small fee if you're using a Thai bank other than your own.

Also, about traveling around Thailand, the Thai banking system has a somewhat peculiar policy about charging ATM fees when you're using an ATM away from the province or region where your account is based. Whatever bank you're interested in, check with them about that before opening an account....

Re #3, re Schwab you can use your Schwab ATM/debit card that's linked to your Schwab checking account pretty much anywhere in the world and not pay any ATM fees, because Schwab will reimburse them.

I don't understand your notion about the "catch" of funds being taken out of the Schwab account periodically... Schwab has a pretty good online banking set-up, and you can link your Schwab checking account to any other U.S. bank accounts of yours via online banking, and then use Schwab online banking to push funds into the other accounts or pull funds from the other accounts into your Schwab account.

Lastly, as for Thai banks, if you expect to be needing to move funds regularly or even periodically from the U.S. to Thailand in amounts that would exceed typical ATM withdrawal amounts, you probably want to consider opening an account with Bangkok Bank, since their system of low-cost ACH transfers from the U.S. to Thailand via their New York branch office is easy and more cost effective than traditional wire transfers.

As far as links between Schwab and Thai banks are concerned, you ought to be able to link your Schwab account to a Thai account with Bangkok Bank. This relates to the procedure I mention in the prior pgh...and has been much posted on elsewhere in the banking threads. But basically, BKK Bank's New York branch has a U.S. ABA/routing number. So from your Schwab account, you'd link to BKK Bank using the New York branch's ABA # and the local account number of your BKK Bank Thai account, assuming both accounts are in your name.

Then, you could ACH funds from your Schwab account, with no charge from Schwab, into your BKK Bank account in Thailand. Unlike the more costly traditional wire transfers, the BKK Bank method has only a small handling fee charged by the NY branch based on a sliding scale, and then a 0.25% commission on the receiving end at BKK Bank, minimum 200 baht and maximum 500 baht regardless of the incoming amount.

It is, however, a one way process only...USA to Thailand... You can create such a link between most any U.S. bank with online banking/ACH transfer and BKK Bank... But you can't use that link to pull funds from Thailand/BKK Bank back to the U.S.

Edited May 19, 2011 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

5.) If I need to link a Thai bank account to my Schwab checking account I take it that means I need to mail the paperwork from Thailand. Will that pose a problem?

AFAIK, you can't link any Thai bank account to your Schwab account, using Schwab's online banking, or any other method -- with the exception of the BKK Bank New York branch approach described above.

But as for other kinds of linking with Schwab once one is already residing in Thailand, a couple things probably apply:

--In general, it's probably best to maintain a U.S. address of record for your banking activities... across the board, if at all possible.

--Once you have an account up and running with Schwab, I don't think any problem would result if you were to mail in some forms from an international address. When you link accounts, they will paper mail an acknoledgement form back to your address of record.

--But Schwab is just one bank/institution, and there are others in both the banking and credit card realms that have been known to non-renew accounts with addresses outside the U.S. So why invite trouble...

And then, on the cash back POS question raised above, I concur with PIB... I've never yet come across a merchant where I could make a PIN based transaction with a VISA or MC logo card here... only swipe and sign credit card-type transactions. And likewise, I've never come across any merchant where there was any opportunity to request a cash back deal as is common in the U.S. Heck, most of the time, it's bordering on the impossible to get them to ring up a tip on top of the basic charge/bill amount.

[jfchandler]

Update to my Post #232 above. My SF account is now activated and I have online banking.

JGM and Pib, when you guys get a chance, it would be good for you to post some details of ATM w/ds using the SF card, so we can see how the details of the exchange rates fare...

We already have a good and known track record of that with Schwab.... But no such established record of info here that I've seen from State Farm transactions.

[jgm005]

JFC, will do as asked. Will be using it this coming Monday. I can tell you that the exchange rate was exactly the same between Schwab Savings Account and S/F account via an AEON machine in Khon Kaen. I did back to back pulls from the same machine within two minutes. 1st using the Schwab VISA debit card then followed up with the S/F Visa Debit card. Also the daily limit appears to be $1000usd for I have pulled more then 20,000bt from an AEON machine using S/F

Update to my Post #232 above. My SF account is now activated and I have online banking.

JGM and Pib, when you guys get a chance, it would be good for you to post some details of ATM w/ds using the SF card, so we can see how the details of the exchange rates fare...

We already have a good and known track record of that with Schwab.... But no such established record of info here that I've seen from State Farm transactions.

Edited May 20, 2011 by jgm005

[ThaiBound81]

jfchandler - Thanks so much for the answers you provided to my questions. I find this stuff fascinating, but quite complicated. I really appreciate the help. I think I will open a checking account with Bangkok Bank, set up a Schwab Brokerage and Checking account, and set up a couple links, so hopefully I'll be good. I'd have been on the wrong track without you guys, so thank you!

[jfchandler]

ThaiBound, that's a good approach and should serve you well...

Here's the BKK Bank web site re the details of setting up their New York based transfers to Thailand...

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Transfering%20Funds/Receiving%20Funds/Pages/Receiving%20Funds%20from%20USA.aspx

Schwab has been a class act for folks here over the past several years... Things could change in the future... But for right now, they're hard to beat.

[jfchandler]

That's great news, JGM... Thanks for updating on that...

Makes State Farm a viable contender in the banking contest....

I can tell you that the exchange rate was exactly the same between Schwab Savings Account and S/F account via an AEON machine in Khon Kaen. I did back to back pulls from the same machine within two minutes. 1st using the Schwab VISA debit card then followed up with the S/F Visa Debit card.

[Pib]

I just got my State Farm Visa Debit card in the mail today; unfortunately, the PIN number did not arrive yet which arrives in a separate mailing. I'll be doing another APO mail run late next week...hopefully the PIN mailing will arrive by then. But as jgm005 mentioned I expect the Schwab and SF Visa debit card exchange rates to be exactly the same using the rate that Visa provides, which is usually just a little better than the TT Buying Rate.

Regarding the daily withdrawal limit, Page 15, Para 2 of the disclosure statement states a $750 daily withdrawal limit (that equates to 22,500 baht @ the current approx 30 baht/USD exchange rate). The disclosure statement also says you can write SF and ask for that daily limit to be increased.

[jgm005]

PIB,

I saw that figure you mentioned in S/F's literature but also saw, somewhere, about being able to pull $1,000.

On 16/May I pulled 24,000bt from an AEON ATM with no problem. Below is the SF activity for same

05/16/2011 > NATIONAL CASH WITHDR CASH WITHDRAWAL TERMINAL 00002910 AS CENTRAL KHONKHE N (1)(BANGKOK 05-15-11 11:12 PM XXXXXXXXXXXXYYYY 795.99

Just a FYI

I just got my State Farm Visa Debit card in the mail today; unfortunately, the PIN number did not arrive yet which arrives in a separate mailing. I'll be doing another APO mail run late next week...hopefully the PIN mailing will arrive by then. But as jgm005 mentioned I expect the Schwab and SF Visa debit card exchange rates to be exactly the same using the rate that Visa provides, which is usually just a little better than the TT Buying Rate.

Regarding the daily withdrawal limit, Page 15, Para 2 of the disclosure statement states a $750 daily withdrawal limit (that equates to 22,500 baht @ the current approx 30 baht/USD exchange rate). The disclosure statement also says you can write SF and ask for that daily limit to be increased.

[Pib]

The paper disclosure they mailed me is probably out of date. When you look at the disclosure on their web site it says $1000/day for "business" accounts which apparently also applies to personal accounts. See this Link which will show below cut and paste.

Quote:

Daily Withdrawal/Purchasing LimitYour ability to make purchases or withdraw funds via Business CheckCard is subject to the available balance of your account and the following limits:

• $1,000 withdrawal limit per CheckCard per business day at any ATM (note: some ATMs may further limit the amount of money per withdrawal).
• $3,500 purchase limit per CheckCard per business day.

End Quote.

As we talked about before, SF disclosures regarding their business and personal accounts don't seem to do a good job in clearly defining certain things. Good to hear you pulled more than $750 which is a real world test indicating a $1000/day applies to personal accounts. Cheers.

[jgm005]

State Farm Debit Visa Withdrawal

Citibank ATM at Asoke

23 May at 15:42

14,900BT pulled

$493.20USD

30.21806 Exchange Rate

[Pib]

State Farm Debit Visa Withdrawal

Citibank ATM at Asoke

23 May at 15:42

14,900BT pulled

$493.20USD

30.21806 Exchange Rate

Schwab Debit Visa Withdrawal

AEON ATM in western Bangkok (no 150 baht fee)

23 May at 11:24

5,000 Baht Pulled

$165.50USD

30.21148 Exchange Rate

Considering there was a few hours between the jgm005's and my withdrawal, plus his previous post where he did a ATM withdrawal within minutes using his Schwab and SF Debit Visa cards and got identical exchange rates, I think this shows both Schwab and SF strictly use the Visa exchange rate of the minute....an exchange rate that is basically equal to the average Thai bank TT Buying rate, give or take a few hundredths of a baht. I'll do a Schwab and SF debit card ATM withdrawal once I get my SF debit card PIN which should be this week (got the debit card a few days ago, but the initial PIN arrives in a separate mailing), but I expect the exchange rate given will be identical like jgm005's previous test.

[jfchandler]

30.21 vs. the BOT Interbank Daily Exchange Rate Average for Monday of 30.383 and average Buying TT rate of 30.234.

http://www.bot.or.th/english/statistics/financialmarkets/exchangerate/_layouts/Application/ExchangeRate/ExchangeRate.aspx

It's a bit unusual to see the ATM rates be slightly below the buying TT... though just barely....

And normally, the Citibank Asoke ATMs for some reason produce a consistently, slightly lower exchange rate compared to AEON...

[Pib]

30.21 vs. the BOT Interbank Daily Exchange Rate Average for Monday of 30.383 and average Buying TT rate of 30.234.

http://www.bot.or.th...changeRate.aspx

It's a bit unusual to see the ATM rates be slightly below the buying TT... though just barely....

And normally, the Citibank Asoke ATMs for some reason produce a consistently, slightly lower exchange rate compared to AEON...

Explain this BOT Interbank Daily Exchange Rate Average as it applies to the everyday person. I understand the Buying TT rate as that is what a person gets in SWIFT/Wire/ACH transfers, but when does the Interbank Exchange Rate affect the common man, why should he watch it, etc., in comparison to watching the TT Buying Rate. Thanks.

[jfchandler]

This is not a bankers' explanation, but rather one born out of practical experience...

Through the years, the BOT IER has been shown as one of the better proxies for for what to expect from a 0% fee ATM card withdrawal in Thailand. Actually 0% fee ATM withdrawals usually are maybe .5 to .10 baht below the IER. The daily baht-U.S. $ rate quoted on X-Rates.com usually is a pretty close number to the IER and functions similarly.

Technically, though, I believe the Interbank Exchange Rate is the rate at which banks do currency exchanges among themselves on a particular day.

Edited May 23, 2011 by jfchandler

[Pib]

Thanks. Seem the BOT IER is nothing the common person can really use in his day-to-day banking (i.e., like changing home country currency to baht using the TT rate as the reference), but is just another currency benchmark to use for certain comparisons. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on a way to get a higher exchange rate by somehow being able to use the BOT IER in my currency exchanges. Thanks again.

[jfchandler]

Pib, the BOT IER and XRates daily rates are two that I use to evaluate any new bank account/card to try to confirm/determine how they're handling foreign exchanges... Or in other words, an ongoing set of benchmarks.

FWIW, I had two AEON ATM withdrawals, one done yesterday Sunday afternoon and another this afternoon, that both produced 30.21 exchange rates, using a small local bank's VISA debit card when I checked the postings to my account online this evening.

The last time I did a CitiBank ATM withdrawal was on May 14 (a Saturday) using a Cap One straight ATM card... When that posted to my account on Monday the 16th, it was at a rate of 29.96 whereas the XRates rate for that Monday was 30.35. There was no BOT IER for that Monday because it was a Thai holiday. That transaction was another example in my experience of the Citibank ATMs usually producing a slightly lower than the best available (like AEON) rates.

[JimGant]

The IER is more a concept than an exact rate, but it represents the "wholesale" rate available between large financial institutions, where economies of scale come into play. But, you'll rarely see any two IER rates match up exactly between organizations like XRates, Oanda, BOT, or Visa Plus. And when an organization like BOT uses a "weighted" IER, its rate will be out ahead of the others when the baht drops, as it currently is doing.

Visa's posted daily FX rate, as a wholesale rate, is representative of an IER. ("The Visa rate is selected from a range of rates available in wholesale currency markets....") And this rate was 30.21 (1/.033101) for May 21,22,23 (the rates are picked the working day before, so Friday's pick is for Sat, Sun, and Mon, since they don't work weekends). See Visa Exchange Rates Calculator So, not surprising that we see the 30.21 rate for several Visa debit/ATM cards, at several machines, and for 22 and 23 May.

It's a bit unusual to see the ATM rates be slightly below the buying TT... though just barely....

But, remember, we're using a rate picked on Friday, 20 May, when the buying TT rate at Bangkok Bank was 30.14. However, by the close of business Monday, 23 May, the TT rate was 30.28. So, when the dollar rises over the weekend, that 3-day hiatus on updating Visa's rate can turn things upside down when comparing TT with IER. But, that's just a temporary aberration -- the TT "retail" exchange rate will always be inferior to the IER in the same time frame.

And normally, the Citibank Asoke ATMs for some reason produce a consistently, slightly lower exchange rate compared to AEON...

Must be the card and/or network. Bet your transaction is riding the Cirrus network. Which we know, from all the discussion on all these threads, is inferior to a Visa/Plus transaction.

When I did my recent data dump, leading to signing-up for the Schwab Visa Debit/ATM card, I ended up equating the Visa card to near-IER rates; the MC card to the TT rate; and ACHing/BB ATM card combination with below-TT rates (albeit only slightly, when large chunks of change are sent). So, it seemed the Capital One MC Debit/ATM card didn't save enough baht to be worth the bother -- unlike the conclusion I reached with Schwab.

Now, I need to evaluate the Capital One MC Credit card, that eats the 1% FT fee -- and has, for some items, 2% cashback. Is the less-than-IER rate compensated for by the 2% cashback? Or would a Visa credit card, with no 1% FT fee, but only a 1% cashback feature, be superior because of its 'near IER' rate? Hmmmm.

Very curious the discrepancy between MC and Visa on their exchange rates..... Both should have access to the same wholesale avenues.... Someone, I'm sure, is getting rich at MC from this wispy exchange rate spread.

[jfchandler]

Jim, the straight Cap One ATM card (no VISA logo) is indeed a Cirrus only network card. That's why it can't be used in AEON's ATMs, since it doesn't carry the VISA or PLUS logos any more.... It used to be a PLUS network card before, I believe....

The rate variation with Citi's ATMs could be due to that.... But I can't recall if I've ever used a straight VISA logo card there...I think I have....but at this hour, I'm not sure I can go back and confirm that...

One thing I do know, though, is that the spread between VISA and MC logo cards has been a consistent,, recurring element for as long as I've been doing this.... Not a huge difference.... maybe .10 or .15 of a baht..... But I've seen it across multiple cards and multiple home banks....

So a no-fee MC logo card is still going to do better than a 1% fee VISA logo card.... But all other things being equal, the VISA card is going to win pretty much every time.

Thanks for filling in some of the background on how the system deals with weekend transactions... It has always seemed to be the weekend pulls where you'll find variations that you wouldn't expect, whereas the weekday ones usually line up pretty well/close with the various benchmarks.

[JimGant]

The rate variation with Citi's ATMs could be due to that...

I'm not sure what else it could be..... As we've long discussed, it's not the ATM machine -- or the bank that owns it -- that establishes the rate (unless DCC is involved, which I certainly doubt is the case here). It's the network and the issuing institutions. And these rates for the same card, in the same time period, should be identical at both Citi and Aeon ATM machines....

[jfchandler]

Except that, to the best of my recollection, at some points in the past when the Cap One ATM card was PLUS network capable and thus usable in AEON ATMs, I'm pretty certain I did same day withdrawals using it from Citi and AEON to test the result...I believe more than one time...and the Citi transaction came out lower...

I can't repeat that now....now that the Cap One is no longer usable with AEON. But I'm pretty certain I did that and got that result back when we first became aware of Citi's ATMs as a no 150 baht fee option.

[JimGant]

I was never sure whether the logo on the front of the card trumps the logo on the back.... My USAA credit cards both ride the Cirrus networks (as shown by Cirrus logo on back of cards). But one is a Visa card, the other a MasterCard -- as shown by the logos on the front of the cards. And the Visa logo card gets the more favorable Visa FX exchange rate, thus saying the logo on the front of the card is the determinate.

Probably the above scenario would be the same for a debit/ATM card with mixed logos on back and front....

JFC, need to head for the CITI ATM machines -- and see what you get with a Cirrus only ATM card vs. a Visa logo debit card -- with a PLUS logo on the back for assurance.

[jfchandler]

JFC, need to head for the CITI ATM machines -- and see what you get with a Cirrus only ATM card vs. a Visa logo debit card -- with a PLUS logo on the back for assurance.

Jim, I think my original test was more telling, because it was using the SAME card (the former ATM-only PLUS network Cap One) in the two different ATMs....Citi and AEON. That pretty leaves only one variable in play, the ATMs/banks themselves...

Using your approach above, the variable factor could be the CIRRUS vs. PLUS factors, or the ATMs/banks... And no real way of determining which is at issue.

I know, as well as you, that the general understanding and rule is that the card networks set the exchange rate, not the local banks... But keep in mind, Citi is not a "local" Thai bank.... I don't know why their results turn out different... But the more I thought about it overnight, I'm sure I did the same Cap One card test with them and AEON multiple times and consistently got the same lower result...

That's why I've been advising in the forums lately that the Citi ATMs for some reason will produce a lesser rate.